Zenimax, please, change Sorcerer-King Orgnum patron

stevenyaub16_ESO

I agree with most here that this patron needs to be reworked. It's just not enjoyable to play with, whether you are the one taking advantage of it or trying to counter it.

Everytime I see it selected I know this game is going to be crap.

I'm sure they can come up with their own solution but I'd suggest that you just remove the free boarding party card when favored and perhaps add it to if you are un-favored rather than favored.

Ginge

I don't think Orgnum is that strong. A combination of Red Eagle and Crows or Hlaalu so you thin the deck right down to play all cards every turn beats Orgnum quite easily depending party upon whether you get midnight raid. The key is to have a Red Eagle agent picking away one of your cards regularly each turn to get rid of all your treasury cards

DinoZavr

@Ginge it is not that easy. i also think Crows+Eagles is the best course of action, but the catch is Eagles are not good for power generation (as St.Pelin's) and you are to be VERY lucky and get a lot of good cards from the very start.
Now i am experimenting with Crows+Pelin. Also not much success.

Vaoh

Casdha wrote: »

NeKryXe wrote: »

The Sorcerer-King Orgnum is absolutely pathetic. Every time I get some loser picking it I already know that it'll be a ridiculous race in two turns to start all the stupidity of clicking the patron forever. I've been playing many card games for ages and this is by far the worst game design I ever saw. Whoever designed should be thinking of retirement by now. Sorry, but that's a really hideous game design.

Anyway, by now everybody knows how awful and boring it is and I'm pretty sure that it's only selected by players who have no idea what to do without it and just play purely by luck.

I still have some hope in ToT, and because of that I never select that deck.

Removing the Sorcerer-King Orgnum would be the best update to ToT.

Look at the bright side, it is about the easiest Achievement to get in ToT, hit the Patron 10 times, done and maybe even in one match.

I legit got the achievement in my first match against someone picking Orgnum and I won the match too lol.

Sure some St Pelin cards need adjustment but Orgnum ruins the game.

Maybe it could become:
Favored: Consume 3 gold to gain 1 power. Grants 2 additional power each time it is used in the same turn.
Neutral: Consume 3 gold to gain 1 power. Patron now Favors you.
Not Favored: Consume 3 gold to gain 1 power. Patron now Favors you.

So it is an easy patron to flip and can generate extra Power only through having multiple Patron usages in 1 turn, like through Tithe.

AnduinTryggva

I would suggest following modifications to Orgnum that would not entirely kill off its basic mechanics:

Increase cost when turning from neutral to favored to 4 gold
Reduce cost when turning from favored to neutral to 2 gold

this would force the guy playing Orgnum to ponder whether to buy cards OR play Orgnum spam. The other player could then invest more in cards than just reacting to Orgnum spam.

As it is now the player having to react to Orgnum play has the same penalty and cannot invest in counter strategies or trying to outrun Orgnum prestige win.

pizzamanub17_ESO

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I would suggest following modifications to Orgnum that would not entirely kill off its basic mechanics:

Increase cost when turning from neutral to favored to 4 gold
Reduce cost when turning from favored to neutral to 2 gold

this would force the guy playing Orgnum to ponder whether to buy cards OR play Orgnum spam. The other player could then invest more in cards than just reacting to Orgnum spam.

As it is now the player having to react to Orgnum play has the same penalty and cannot invest in counter strategies or trying to outrun Orgnum prestige win.

This is a good possible solution. I have another option that I think might make sense too, tell me what you think:

Change the point value to 1 per 5 cards when neutral and 1 per 7 cards when favored. That way you have a good incentive to get favored quickly, but not much incentive to keep spamming him unless you just have leftover gold, and it's an actual choice between Orgnum and the bank in the early game.

The free card is a bit much - you could leave it as is with the increased favored cost, or drop the favored cost to 6 and reduce the points the boarding party gives you to 1. You don't necessarily want to fill up your deck with cards that only give you a couple points, but if they are also helping you get combos then it could be a bit OP.

But this way your opponent has a decision to make when you are favored - they can leave it, giving you occasional free points, or take it and risk you getting the bigger points payday that comes from the neutral ability. At the same time, you now have to decide whether to take that bonus now, or let the other player possibly take it.

This makes for some more interesting decisions than it currently offers, IMO.

I want the patrons to introduce new strategies and considerations, but I don't think any one should be more powerful than any other, in an absolute sense.

AnduinTryggva

pizzamanub17_ESO wrote: »

AnduinTryggva wrote: »

I would suggest following modifications to Orgnum that would not entirely kill off its basic mechanics:

Increase cost when turning from neutral to favored to 4 gold
Reduce cost when turning from favored to neutral to 2 gold

this would force the guy playing Orgnum to ponder whether to buy cards OR play Orgnum spam. The other player could then invest more in cards than just reacting to Orgnum spam.

As it is now the player having to react to Orgnum play has the same penalty and cannot invest in counter strategies or trying to outrun Orgnum prestige win.

This is a good possible solution. I have another option that I think might make sense too, tell me what you think:

Change the point value to 1 per 5 cards when neutral and 1 per 7 cards when favored. That way you have a good incentive to get favored quickly, but not much incentive to keep spamming him unless you just have leftover gold, and it's an actual choice between Orgnum and the bank in the early game.

The free card is a bit much - you could leave it as is with the increased favored cost, or drop the favored cost to 6 and reduce the points the boarding party gives you to 1. You don't necessarily want to fill up your deck with cards that only give you a couple points, but if they are also helping you get combos then it could be a bit OP.

But this way your opponent has a decision to make when you are favored - they can leave it, giving you occasional free points, or take it and risk you getting the bigger points payday that comes from the neutral ability. At the same time, you now have to decide whether to take that bonus now, or let the other player possibly take it.

This makes for some more interesting decisions than it currently offers, IMO.

I want the patrons to introduce new strategies and considerations, but I don't think any one should be more powerful than any other, in an absolute sense.

This may be an alternative but would considerably change the Orgnum win mechanics that actually I think is an interesting option with respect to the other decks.

Orgnum initially does not yield much power gain but rewards players at a later stage. The grudge that I hold against Orgnum as of now is that the cost for chosing the Orgnum strategy is exactly the same as for combatting it. That is why I think the costs should be increased for Orgnum strategy.

A small modification to my previously proposed cost setup could be:

Turning Orgnum from neutral to favoured: 3 gold
Activating Orgnum while favored: 4 golds
"Un-favor Orgnun": 2 golds

Oddemus

Casdha wrote: »

Did you see this thread?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/609440/sorcer-king-orgnum-counter-strategies

Thanks for sharing this thread!! I have been able to come up with a great counter strategy since making that post asking for strategies.

Orgnum is, definitely, not the most to play nor play against. Using Rajin with Hlaalu has helped me to beat that strategy. Gain as much gold as possible and sacrifice 6 coin cards to Hlaalu. For bonus power, the Duke with these two will help gain power. If you have a faster rate of gain than Orgnum, chances are, you will win. While Orgnum is spending most of their coins on their patron, you can build your income so you can buy 5/6+ cards.

This strategy isn't flawless but it's been working for me.

spacefracking

It is TERRIBLE. If someone picks it, it throws the entire game out the window, and it's basically just about getting lucky with draws and playing that patron.

It breaks the game.

spacefracking

Oddemus wrote: »

Casdha wrote: »

Did you see this thread?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/609440/sorcer-king-orgnum-counter-strategies

Thanks for sharing this thread!! I have been able to come up with a great counter strategy since making that post asking for strategies.

Orgnum is, definitely, not the most to play nor play against. Using Rajin with Hlaalu has helped me to beat that strategy. Gain as much gold as possible and sacrifice 6 coin cards to Hlaalu. For bonus power, the Duke with these two will help gain power. If you have a faster rate of gain than Orgnum, chances are, you will win. While Orgnum is spending most of their coins on their patron, you can build your income so you can buy 5/6+ cards.

This strategy isn't flawless but it's been working for me.

Idk, they wrack up prestige so fast with the cards/4 thing, and the boarding party cards. Its combo cards are crazy low priced.

Rahjin is way too expensive to play effectively before the score is already tanked (the patron alone, not to mention actually buying the cards that makes its strategy viable...)

The only real counter is drawing tithes, or getting amazing draws from the gold deck. That's about it.

It's exponential. Nothing beats exponential, particularly when the number to hit is as low as 40

Hawkeye

It depends on the decks played against it. I have had spammers start right out the gate using it. While I would concentrate on getting cards flipped and building my hand. The deck is not unbeatable as some in here are rallying so much about. I have won many games against spammers. You have to think and sometimes take a few gambles on cards that show up. I just don't understand peoples hang-up over this one deck. Take some beatings and try to learn some strategies to counter the deck.

DinoZavr

PTS Patch Notes v8.1.0 are out.
No mention of any Orgnum patron changes.
Sad

AnduinTryggva

Hawkeye wrote: »

It depends on the decks played against it. I have had spammers start right out the gate using it. While I would concentrate on getting cards flipped and building my hand. The deck is not unbeatable as some in here are rallying so much about. I have won many games against spammers. You have to think and sometimes take a few gambles on cards that show up. I just don't understand peoples hang-up over this one deck. Take some beatings and try to learn some strategies to counter the deck.

I've lost significantly more against spammers than won. The thing is if your opponent spams Orgnum you MUST turn Orgnum neutral and hope for your opponent to miss out on Orgnum activation due to not enough gold for having a decent chance.

On the other hand I have won more often when spamming Orgnum myself.

Orgnum spam ist the most boring and skill-less way for game win hands down.

Actually I think they should just take Orgnum straight out of the entire game until they find a way to make it balanced.

tomstock

DinoZavr wrote: »

PTS Patch Notes v8.1.0 are out.
No mention of any Orgnum patron changes.
Sad

I'm hoping it wasn't included because nerfing it takes more thought than what whey could do with the version in PTS. The patron's mechanic is a main component of the deck, they need to nerf it such that it keeps the original intention without it being over powered. I'm disappointed that their wasn't a developer comment about the deck in the patch notes.

Oddemus

Please.

notyuu

Here's a possibly stupid idea to replace his power with
pay prestidge gain gold

MJ202

Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

First, a history lesson. At the start of World War 2, the Japanese Zero ruled the skies over the Pacific. Nothing the Allies had could go up against it and survive. Or so it seemed. One US Navy Aviator, LCDR John Thatch, wasn’t willing to except that the Zero was unbeatable. He sat down and carefully studied the Zero, comparing its strengths and weaknesses to the strengths and weaknesses of the best USN fighter available at the time, the F4F Wildcat.

LCDR Thatch spent many hours using match sticks to represent combat formations. Over time, he devised a tactical formation for the Wildcats to utilize against the Zero. This tactical formation became known as the Thatch Weave. During the battle of Midway, USN Wildcat pilots successfully used the Thatch Weave for the first time. Japanese pilots were stymied. All of a sudden, they found their Zero was no longer unbeatable and USN pilots found they could hold their own against the Zero.

So what does this lesson from history have to do with Tales of Tribute? Well, when the Orgnum card deck first appeared on the Tribute tables, they brought with them a tactic (Patron spamming) which was unbeatable, sweeping all opponents off the table before them. However, just as LCDR Thatch did in WW2, to find a way to compete with the Zero, I’ve spent some time looking at what Orgnum offers and compared it to what’s available from the other card decks. What I have found is Orgnum is not unbeatable, even when your opponent is spamming the Patron.

There is in fact at least one other card deck, which when played properly, you can stand toe-to-toe with the Orgnum spammer. In four non-ranked, PvP matches, where I’ve encountered an Orgnum spammer, I’ve attempted to employ the appropriate card deck, along with playing the appropriate cards. The outcome has been two wins and two loses. Just like the Thatch Weave wasn’t a 100% guarantee of victory against the Zero, this also is not a 100% guarantee of victory against the Orgnum spammer. What it does do is provide the ability to hold your own. There is also a little bit of RNG luck involved, as you need the appropriate cards to come up in the tavern. However, now having a 50% chance of victory is far better than the previous 100% lose rate.

Now for those who are going to ask, what is the card deck and what are the appropriate cards and strategy, well, call me selfish but I’m not going to go into the specifics here. LCDR Thatch didn’t announce to the world what his tactics were which gave the Wildcats a fighting chance against the Zero. He wanted to hold the advantage as long as he could. Likewise, I wish to hold on to this opportunity as long as I can as well.

It's entirely possible Orgnum spammers are already aware of the strategy I’ve come up with and have already come up with a work around to counter it. Only time will tell. Just like in WW2, as Japanese Zero pilots had time to observe the Thatch Weave, they would be able to come up with their own counter to it. Orgnum spammers, if they watch carefully, will be able to observe my devised strategy and likely come up with a counter.

So, if I’m not willing to share what I’ve found out, what is the point of this post? It’s to let people know Orgnum is not unbeatable. I would encourage those who are frustrated to take the time to compare the strengths and weaknesses of each card deck versus the strengths and weaknesses of the Orgnum deck. You might just find a winning strategy you can use to counter, and frustrate, your Orgnum spammer opponent. You might come up with the strategy I’ve come up with, or you might come up with another, which better fits your own preferred play style. The bottom line is the Orgnum spammer can be beaten

DinoZavr

MJ202 wrote: »

In four non-ranked, PvP matches, where I’ve encountered an Orgnum spammer, I’ve attempted to employ the appropriate card deck, along with playing the appropriate cards. The outcome has been two wins and two loses.

MJ, no offense, please, but without DOZENS of matches i would not start this thread.
It is completely fine you keep your secret weapon secret. I am not about conspiracy and tried many countermeasures, all with not a great success. Best combo i find so far is RedEagle+Ansei. Eagle thins my desk, Ansei returns best combo cards.
The issue is that i severely depend on luck. What if Tavern goes stale? 8s 9s and useless agent killing neutral cards?
Also, when i spam Orgnum, besides just pushing that button i use 1g Barterer to remove cards beneficial for my foe, i use 2g King Orgnum's Command to keep my opponent in Patrons check and my second desk if Celarus - it does not provide lots of power for my opponent (and it is also anti-Rajhin if my opponent injects Bewilderments into my desk). Orgnum spam is not just spamming the Patron, it also includes actually playing versus your opponent.

Still, Orgnum is a brute-force which works regadless of luck with the draw.
If there are proven strategies which work in 75% to counter Orgnum regardless of Tawern draw, THEN i could agree with you opinion.
Right now i am still convinced Orgnum spam is game-breaking and yell for Zenimax to re-think Orgnum patron.

Edit: fixed quote tag

redspecter23

A strategy doesn't have to be unbeatable to be game warping enough to warrant changes. The Orgnum patron warps the flow of the game, in my opinion, in an unhealthy way. If ZOS sees it the same way, they may end up changing it to improve the game, even if the effect does have some counters. I don't believe any other patron effect can single handedly change the flow of the game in the same way and provide an avenue of potential soft lock with a short clock.

DinoZavr

@redspecter23, the other reason i am trying to communicate with game developers is that Orgnum patron design completely contradicts the very idea of a desk building. I guess you could agree with that - it is unhealthy for the game.
Provided the Orgnum power generation pace seriously decreased (because it is 100% guaranteed, while counter-play is totally RNG dependent) it might be OKay, but i would prefer if this desk is replaced with anything different, which follows the game philosophy.

redspecter23

DinoZavr wrote: »

@redspecter23, the other reason i am trying to communicate with game developers is that Orgnum patron design completely contradicts the very idea of a desk building. I guess you could agree with that - it is unhealthy for the game.
Provided the Orgnum power generation pace seriously decreased (because it is 100% guaranteed, while counter-play is totally RNG dependent) it might be OKay, but i would prefer if this desk is replaced with anything different, which follows the game philosophy.

My worry is that zos bases their ToT adjustments on spreadsheets and data. They may overlook potential issues simply because the deck has only been unlocked by a relatively small number of players. Even of those that have it unlocked, they may actively avoid taking it leading to a low overall percentage of orgnum games. They could draw the conclusion that there isn't a problem based solely on numbers.

DinoZavr

@redspecter23

Yes. Totally agree with you. I normally play 8 .. 10 games a day and i do NOT chose Orgnum, just because i don't like the very idea of this desk (earlier i have experimented with it in Unranked and got some intimidating whisper to stop that).
My opponents in Ranked rarely choose Orgnum, i would say in 1 of 10 .. 20 cases.
So yes, @ZOS might not notice if they read only logs.

@ZOS_Kevin may i, please, wonder if Developers read this certain forum sometimes?

seps42

I absolutely hate Orgnum after last night. I got the same opponent AT THE LEAST 6X IN A ROW! They would pick that deck everytime, go first everytime, rng would give them the good cheap cards every turn, and they would start spamming Orgnum after maybe 2 turns. I had no recourse at all. I could either waste 3 gold to stop the spam or buy useless knock out cards (with no agent in play), buy a remove from tavern cards only to give them better cards to buy, all cards offered/left to me were to expensive or useless. I couldn't even generate more gold because they got gold generating cards and if I used treasury to get 2 gold cards it was pointless because by time I got enough they were close to win already. At one point I logged off for half an hour out of pure rage, logged back on and GOT THE SAME OPPONENT! With same crap rng game play. They are balancing other decks with updates why was Orgnum left out? This will encourage even more Orgnum spamming chads. I will now concede every match someone picks orgnum.
Sorry, rant over. Just had to get it out. 😆

DinoZavr

So U35 is live.

There were some big changes like good cards cost increase, but this has not affected spamming Orgnum counterplay.
Orgnum spam does not depend on RNG, unlike all the other strategies, so this "anti-deskbuilding" feature is still here,
which makes me wonder, why?

Dear @ZOS could you, please, replace the entire Orgnum desk with any other, which suits the desk-building better,
or, at the very least, increase cost of Orgnum patron spamming (this could help with countering spam with Rahjin) and stop giving the one who pushed Orgnum patron favor first an advantage, as, this, basically turns the game, which should require thinking into braindead race of mutual pushing that patron button each turn?

TL/DR; Orgnum patron spam is still very annoying and does not fit the desk-building idea at all.

AnduinTryggva

notyuu wrote: »

Here's a possibly stupid idea to replace his power with
pay prestidge gain gold

That is already Hunding patron doing that.

Veinblood1965

It is kind of laughable, even against NPC's once you get to a certain point in the game it's all they do is select that option each turn.

gypsysonb14_ESO

While I was happy they were making a change to Orgnum, I thought it wasn't enough. But I also get wanting to make minor changes and balance as we go (which is a good way to do it, to avoid what we've seen from combat changes) instead of an overcorrection. I'll start playing some matches on the new patch today and see how different it feels, but have little doubt that Orgnum is still a must flip back when it's used leading to the same boring gameplay it forces now.

FrancisCrawford

Veinblood1965 wrote: »

It is kind of laughable, even against NPC's once you get to a certain point in the game it's all they do is select that option each turn.

And after 5 or so Orgnum matches, I learned to beat those NPCs as consistently as I beat NPCs with other patron choices.

You win an Orgnum game if you build the better power-producing deck and the game then goes into soft lock.
You win an Orgnum game if your strategy simply outpaces your opponents in building prestige.

At least one of those paths is usually available, because it turns out that in Orgnum games, the NPC strategy of spamming Writ of Coin followed by spamming Orgnum is much too slow.

EnerG

The obvious solution to me, is to make the patron power usable only after a set amount of rounds has passed.
Say 5 rounds, and begins on the start of the 6th. (By rounds I mean each player has taken 1 turn each, so 2 turns per round) Meaning, you decide, are you rushing for combo cards? Or acquiring every card you can to gain orgnums favor at the start of round 6.
Both carry risks with the luck of the draw, tavern could keep pulling high cost cards allowing the combo player access to better cards, or a bunch of low cards allowing the patron power to be better.

Bowmanganie

To be honest I sometimes think the threshold for re-activating a favoring patron should be increased the more often it is activated. I've seen Orgnum spams and Rajin spams and it is just stupid. Spamming should come at a cost. Maybe raise the costs after third spam.[/quote]

This is what I was thinking thru this whole discussion. I like the idea of a reusable, favored, Patron becoming more expensive to use each time you use it, whatever its cost is. Power or coin. +1 cost per use. I only use Orgnum deck if my opponent first chooses, or will choose cause I know they will pick it cause I have played them enough times, Duke of Crows.