Sorcer-King Orgnum counter strategies?

Oddemus

Hey there.

The higher up you go in the ranks, the more you see Orgnum used. May I ask what strategies have been used to beat him? I've lost an embarrassing amount of games trying to counter him just to lose by a landslide.

Thanks for the help.

Personofsecrets

As was discussed with me yesterday, apparently a skillfully played Red Eagle/Duke of Crows combination can get some tight wins against Ogrum. The theory is that Red Eagle is useless to Ogrum players as card destruction would interfere with their strategy. On top of that, some of the Dukes combo cards can be pretty cheap, so you are able to build a cohesive deck and fight over the Ogrum patron button at the same time.

I haven't tested this, but I feel like Delmene and Ansei could also be good. These archetypes have cards that let you add cards to your deck as part of their effect. So if you use those, then you are still left with gold to fight over the Ogrum button with.

Try to not let the opponent press the Ogrum button while they are already favored.

Oddemus

Personofsecrets wrote: »

As was discussed with me yesterday, apparently a skillfully played Red Eagle/Duke of Crows combination can get some tight wins against Ogrum. The theory is that Red Eagle is useless to Ogrum players as card destruction would interfere with their strategy. On top of that, some of the Dukes combo cards can be pretty cheap, so you are able to build a cohesive deck and fight over the Ogrum patron button at the same time.

I haven't tested this, but I feel like Delmene and Ansei could also be good. These archetypes have cards that let you add cards to your deck as part of their effect. So if you use those, then you are still left with gold to fight over the Ogrum button with.

Try to not let the opponent press the Ogrum button while they are already favored.

Thanks, I will work on devising a Red Eagle/Crows strategy. I've been using Hlaalu/Crows and that's.. somewhat effective? This strategy REALLY depends on getting those cards like Currency Exchange and Home Marketplace. Which is doable. If I am lucky, I can get 15-20 coins into Duke's patron ability. The Orgnum player has a slow rate of power gain.

With Hlaalu's patron ability, I have been buying what cards I can and using the patron ability to get around 20-25 prestige. With luck, I can use Crows to get a good bit of that coin turned into power to turn the tide of the game.

Casdha

As I said elsewhere, I would ignore them especially if they start early. You can build a harder hitting deck while they waist coins on 2 point cards. If you can get some good coin and power cards you can turn the table on them about the same time they don't have enough coins to keep it going.

Edit: Also don't waist coins buy every cheap keepable card you can while you wait to star spamming it yourself. You can grow total card count faster than them which will make the patron hit harder when you start.

Oddemus

Anyone else?

dmnqwk

Create a deck that will screw them over when they Orgnum first.

1. Ensure that if they have 11 cards in their deck, fight the Orgnum fight. They will gain 1 power while you gain 2. If you let them use the power favoured, they'll get a 12th card and win if nobody has any power to break the deadlock.
2. Take cards that get more cards and/or produce power. Conquest (Hunding) is a phenominal card and if you suspect your opponent is going to Orgnum fight you, get it first! It either nabs a card from the middle OR produces power (up to 5 with combo 2).
3. You can afford to go down in cards with Bonfire/Ragpicker and the like - meaning any small advantage card for you will come around quicker than for them. If they are on 12 cards and you let Orgnum while Favoured, ensure there's a reason for doing it (Midnight Raid, The Armory, Hail of Arrows are all reasons to consider this.)

If they used Orgnum right away, and you never used it... then the turn structure would be like this:
1. Become Favoured, gain 1 power
2. Gain 1 Boarding Party (11 cards), gain 2 power (shuffle all cards)
3. Gain 1 Boarding Party (12 cards), gain 2 power
4. 13 cards, 3 power
5. 14 cards, 3 power (draw 3, shuffle for the other 2 from 11)
6. 15 cards, 3 power
7. 16 cards, 3 power
8. 17 cards, 4 power (draw 1, shuffle for the other 4 from 16)
9. 18 cards, 4 power.

So looking at it - over 9 turns they've gotten a guaranteed 25 power from the Patron usage, and from Maomer Boarding Party they'll gain 4 power between turns 2 and 5, 8 from turns 5 to 8 leaving a potential of 1 turn where they could get between 0 and 10 thus giving them 37 +0-10. The precursor to this is that from turns 5 through 8, it is possible they have a turn where they receive 2 or fewer coins, preventing a use of the power. It also excludes a more likely scenario where they pick 2 cards and hit 12 before going off on the power use (which delays them by 2 turns but increases the odds they wont stutter). So I'd suggest ensuring any strategy to counter it aims for to win by turn 11.

If you're looking to win by turn 11, you want to consider how you can do either one of the following:
1) Produce 4 prestige per turn yourself
2) Prevent 1 or more prestige per turn through agents/rahjin

If you drafted 2 cards that produce 4 power each, while reducing your deck to 10 cards (ragpicker/bonfire) then you're now looking at 4 prestige per turn and will theoretically win.
Alternatively, if you get hold of 3/4 toughness taunt agents, you're going to slow them down too because the thing about Orgnum is it will eventually stutter around turn 6-10 If you draft cards that stop it going off. Obviously if they draft a Conquest in the first 2 turns, you're fighting a REAL uphill battle. Prophesy is nice in that you can destroy anything they might purchase, ensuring their deck stays as small as you can keep it. Bewilderment cards are a good idea as well - because the more turns they cant make 3 gold, the more they suffer (although you'll still need that 4 power a turn because of Maomer Boarding Party cards.

Oddemus

dmnqwk wrote: »

Thank you!!

Oddemus

Awaken, thread!

DinoZavr

@Oddemus i also opened a similar thread at this forum.
For spamming strategy everything is very much clear for me: it is normally Orgnum+Celarus
Celarus helps to buy cheap cards, remove cards useful for your opponent from the Tavern and avoid Rahjin cursed cards. Also it is possible to kill your opponents agents with Celarus. And i will never buy any agent to be guaranteed against my opponents' patrons victory. See?
From time to time i play Orgnum spam just to see how my opponents attempt to counter that. And still has not discovered anything efficient, as power generation pace, provided by Orgnum is way too fast.

What i tried to counter Orgnum patron spam:
The remaining 6 desks are Crows, Pelin, Hlaalu, Ansei, Rahjin, and Red Eagle.
Hlaalu might be terrible as it gives Orgnum spammer a great opportunity to beef theirs desk using Luxury Exports and Customs Seizure
Rahjin is kinda slow and using patron only benefits Orgnum spammer, as they avoid cursed cards with Celarus and these cursed cards only inflate theirs desk
Crows are probably the must-use engine because of combos, but it is sad when your spamming opponent also buys cheap Crows cards to prevent you from buying them
St.Pelin is good but it does not provide combos, so it is not what i could rely on
The remaining 2 desks worth the try
Ansei is good to return powerful cards back from cooldown pile
Red Eagle is great to thin out your desk fast to leave only combos producing crows and power generating Eagles, though these are few.
So to counter Orgnum+Celarus i normally attempt Crows+RedEagle, but with not much success.
Orgnum spam is too unbalanced at this moment.

Kharnamantic

Even the AI are pretty unstoppable with Orgnums. Once you reach expert rank, the expert AI start picking Orgnums and keep spamming the patron button. You have to fight the experts to progress the dailies.

Is there a reliable counter to AI using Orgnums? Is it the only way to spam the Orgnum button before they do (because turning back the patron from unfavored gives you less power)?

Oddemus

DinoZavr wrote: »

@Oddemus i also opened a similar thread at this forum.
For spamming strategy everything is very much clear for me: it is normally Orgnum+Celarus
Celarus helps to buy cheap cards, remove cards useful for your opponent from the Tavern and avoid Rahjin cursed cards. Also it is possible to kill your opponents agents with Celarus. And i will never buy any agent to be guaranteed against my opponents' patrons victory. See?
From time to time i play Orgnum spam just to see how my opponents attempt to counter that. And still has not discovered anything efficient, as power generation pace, provided by Orgnum is way too fast.

What i tried to counter Orgnum patron spam:
The remaining 6 desks are Crows, Pelin, Hlaalu, Ansei, Rahjin, and Red Eagle.
Hlaalu might be terrible as it gives Orgnum spammer a great opportunity to beef theirs desk using Luxury Exports and Customs Seizure
Rahjin is kinda slow and using patron only benefits Orgnum spammer, as they avoid cursed cards with Celarus and these cursed cards only inflate theirs desk
Crows are probably the must-use engine because of combos, but it is sad when your spamming opponent also buys cheap Crows cards to prevent you from buying them
St.Pelin is good but it does not provide combos, so it is not what i could rely on
The remaining 2 desks worth the try
Ansei is good to return powerful cards back from cooldown pile
Red Eagle is great to thin out your desk fast to leave only combos producing crows and power generating Eagles, though these are few.
So to counter Orgnum+Celarus i normally attempt Crows+RedEagle, but with not much success.
Orgnum spam is too unbalanced at this moment.

Thanks for this detailed post! I have had some success using Crows/Hlaalu to get a massive coin to power boost, but this only works if you get those card combos from the yellow cards. When this works - it works well. Getting the planets to align for winning is the challenge lol. The other person was saying that the Red Eagle deck works well against it but idk i was up against someone who used both of those (destroying the non-orgnum cards) and kicked my ass.

My conclusion is that you either win by a landslide with him or you get your ass kicked.

Oddemus

Kharnamantic wrote: »

Even the AI are pretty unstoppable with Orgnums. Once you reach expert rank, the expert AI start picking Orgnums and keep spamming the patron button. You have to fight the experts to progress the dailies.

This has been a real challenge, too. I usually don't lose against the NPCs, but when I do, it's do that damn Orgnum deck. I want to love that deck because I like how it works.. It's just way too unbalanced.

NeKryXe

I don't really care about Sorcer-King Orgnum counter strategies. The deck is horrendously tedious to play. It's a total trash. Most of the time we all know who'll win after the first two rounds. It's worse than playing bingo. So, if they don't want to remove or fix it, they could at least could add a button to resign, next to the spamming patron, so we can give the victory faster to the luckiest player and leave. Usually I just skip to play the cards, but it still takes a long time for nothing.

Oddemus

NeKryXe wrote: »

I don't really care about Sorcer-King Orgnum counter strategies. The deck is horrendously tedious to play. It's a total trash. Most of the time we all know who'll win after the first two rounds. It's worse than playing bingo. So, if they don't want to remove or fix it, they could at least could add a button to resign, next to the spamming patron, so we can give the victory faster to the luckiest player and leave. Usually I just skip to play the cards, but it still takes a long time for nothing.

The option to concede IS there but at the cost of a time-out for leaving. I, too, wish there was some sort of alternative that didn't involve a penalty.

Just popped into a game and guess what!? The opponent is using Orgnum... yay... ugh

NeKryXe

Oddemus wrote: »

NeKryXe wrote: »

I don't really care about Sorcer-King Orgnum counter strategies. The deck is horrendously tedious to play. It's a total trash. Most of the time we all know who'll win after the first two rounds. It's worse than playing bingo. So, if they don't want to remove or fix it, they could at least could add a button to resign, next to the spamming patron, so we can give the victory faster to the luckiest player and leave. Usually I just skip to play the cards, but it still takes a long time for nothing.

The option to concede IS there but at the cost of a time-out for leaving. I, too, wish there was some sort of alternative that didn't involve a penalty.

Just popped into a game and guess what!? The opponent is using Orgnum... yay... ugh

Many times players are also doing the Dueling Tributes daily, and if I resign using that option I'm penalizing the other player. So, I never use it. The ToT game is super bugged - The concede option we have now penalizes both the loser and the winner. It's ridiculous! That's why we need a specific button, at least for Orgnum, so we can leave and give away the easy victory that who picks that deck is looking for.

In 8 of the last 10 games I've tried, in ranked, the opponent picked Orgnum. The fun with this game is doomed. It didn't last long.

DinoZavr

@Oddemus Crows+Eagles works fine against NPCs (and Expert NPCs tend to spam Orgnum as crazy, especially that one in Alik'r, so had dozens of chances to try my countermeasure). The catch is - humans are much smarter than AI.
Still i am adamant Crows+Eagles (if i am lucky to get good cards soon (which, unfortunately, is a rare rare case)) is the best course of action. I don't destroy Orgnum cards - i completely ignore patron spam by my opponent and do my best to obtain a small and very efficient desk generating me at least 5 power a turn.

Tuonra2

I personally have a pretty good winrate against Orgnum, and in the top leaderboard players tend not to use him. He is very powerful, oppressive and braindead, don't get me wrong, but the strategy is hard to influence, you don't get the chance to show off your skills as much since the playstyle is 'scripted' almost.

Assuming you are facing a player picking Orgnum going first (if they are going second just take the free win), you want 2 things: build a slightly more powerful deck fast! And deny them good cards on the first turn.

All this analysis about crow combos to beat 4 prestige per turn is too macro a view imo. You want to beat them turn by turn. If you take the patron from unfavoured to neutral, that's 2 power, if they don't buy any cards and they patron from neutral to favoured they get 1 power. Even if you give them 2 turns they get an 11th card and 2 power that turn, but still 1 power from neutral.

This means you have two turns to make a better deck before all you have to do is contest the patron every turn. And if they are smart they realize they will lose so they have to take a risk and likely give you the Orgnum favour in the process, giving you a bigger chance to win.

So how do we outvalue an Orgnum? Well one thought is to pick ansei, since the patron power is 1g and they cant rake it back and still orgnum, but I find giving the chance at warrior wave, conquest or the 5cost is pretty risky. If you end up in a game vs ansei orgnum, def go for the ansei patron early.

But how then to deny good cards and still get good cards? Well we have to leverage our starting coin, this means taking patrons w/ good 6s and no power starter, in my opinion that's hlaalu and psijic. Yes there are some good small cards, but they are coin cards. Coin cards don't advance the Orgnum gameplan and by the time they come back you should have control of the tavern. On the other hand oathman, relicmaster and dreaming cave are snowball cards.
What about rahjin? Pounce is 5 gold and insurmountable if player 1 gets it. Rahjin out.
What about crow? Crow is fun and can beat orgnum if you get good cards, but if good cards show up, player one can take them first, and then you either contest crows or go for orgnum against a player w/ good crow cards... Crow out.
What about Red Eagle? Yes I said no power cards, and giving away raid is a disaster, but if that didn't happen, you can thin a deck with cards the orgnum player won't take, and buy contract agents to sell w/ hlaalu for consistent pressure, or get that one good card you got turn1 more often so you can contest orgnum and creep ahead, or even just pick up the cheap orgnum cards yourself and win with deck slimming and cycling. All that said, too risky, but a tense way to win if they pick eagle with orgnum.
Lastly Pelin: don't give the player going first access to pelin, you numpty. Pelin out.

Tuonra2

If you do this, you will at least create the scenario where the Orgnum player can't just patron to win, so maybe, just maybe you'll develop back into a game where people buy cards and reveal a better one for the opponent, as the game was clearly designed.

Ardan147

Counter strategy to Orgnum is basically hope you get lucky instead of your opponent.

What makes it so awful for the game is if you fall behind you're faced with either wasting three gold and your one patron ability or turn or risk having it get out of hand and the game being out of reach.

PinkApple

The two easiest and most straight forward options you have when your opponent drafts orgnum are:

1. Pick Rajhin and look to pick up -prestige cards, particularly the 6 cost taunt "Stubborn Shadow". If you manage to get 2 of these early enough, you can completely nullify their strategy. Atop of Stubborn Shadow, using Rajhin's patron power can be effective vs orgnum as they usually do not use the treasury, and since orgnum decks are such low economy a bewilderment or two in their hand often means they cant use the orgnum patron power that turn.

2. Happen to be the first player to get 1-2 strong cards and play the orgnum strategy yourself.


I have found there to be a third solid option involving Black+Purple, however it requires very precise gameplay and often the matches will be very close. Has resulted in me winnning most of my matches vs orgnum players, essentially you will be very uncontested when it comes to card removal so you can thin your deck out to a handful of cards (usually purple, making for potent combos). An advanced technique here is learning when you can pivot into a concentrated orgnum deck however, if you can pick up 3-5 good orgnum cards you will constantly be comboing them and comboing any contract actions that show up, giving you way more prestige than your opponent and letting you catch up in just a couple of turns.

The first two options are far easier to pull off, and more consistent in general.

Hope this helps! I'll be coming out with a video specifically regarding orgnum soon enough.

Oddemus

TalesOfTribute wrote: »

The two easiest and most straight forward options you have when your opponent drafts orgnum are:

1. Pick Rajhin and look to pick up -prestige cards, particularly the 6 cost taunt "Stubborn Shadow". If you manage to get 2 of these early enough, you can completely nullify their strategy. Atop of Stubborn Shadow, using Rajhin's patron power can be effective vs orgnum as they usually do not use the treasury, and since orgnum decks are such low economy a bewilderment or two in their hand often means they cant use the orgnum patron power that turn.

2. Happen to be the first player to get 1-2 strong cards and play the orgnum strategy yourself.


I have found there to be a third solid option involving Black+Purple, however it requires very precise gameplay and often the matches will be very close. Has resulted in me winnning most of my matches vs orgnum players, essentially you will be very uncontested when it comes to card removal so you can thin your deck out to a handful of cards (usually purple, making for potent combos). An advanced technique here is learning when you can pivot into a concentrated orgnum deck however, if you can pick up 3-5 good orgnum cards you will constantly be comboing them and comboing any contract actions that show up, giving you way more prestige than your opponent and letting you catch up in just a couple of turns.

The first two options are far easier to pull off, and more consistent in general.

Hope this helps! I'll be coming out with a video specifically regarding orgnum soon enough.

Thank you!! I have been trying different strategies and I have had the most success with Duke/Hlaalu and Duke to get that nice chunk of 15-20 coins turned into prestige.

This video - may I ask to be notified when it comes out? I appreciate you responding and will work what you've gone through into various strategies!