The Oakensoul Ring has ended the PVP tank meta and ushered in another glorious damage meta

divnyi

ninjagank wrote: »

You can have low TTK without the ring. We just had a big damage meta prior to update 32. The fact that this glorious damage meta is built around a single one piece item is the issue at hand.

It is built around crystal + savage werewolf, idk why everyone point at Oaken when most damaging build isn't even using it.

TechMaybeHic

divnyi wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

You can have low TTK without the ring. We just had a big damage meta prior to update 32. The fact that this glorious damage meta is built around a single one piece item is the issue at hand.

It is built around crystal + savage werewolf, idk why everyone point at Oaken when most damaging build isn't even using it.

I expect one of those to be fixed pretty fast. But that's part and so is occult overload. 12k oblivion damage makes being tanky pointless

divnyi

TechMaybeHic wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

You can have low TTK without the ring. We just had a big damage meta prior to update 32. The fact that this glorious damage meta is built around a single one piece item is the issue at hand.

It is built around crystal + savage werewolf, idk why everyone point at Oaken when most damaging build isn't even using it.

I expect one of those to be fixed pretty fast. But that's part and so is occult overload. 12k oblivion damage makes being tanky pointless

I was pointing at this issue back in PTS multiple times. It shouldn't be oblivion with those numbers, being normal damage type (like idk magic) will result in at least twice lower damage, as it won't pen battle spirit. 3-4k AoEs with armour sound fair for CP star.

The chain reaction in VD + Occult is absolutely broken. With all bonuses combined, I'm able to do 30k damage from a single player death.

DrSlaughtr

divnyi wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

You can have low TTK without the ring. We just had a big damage meta prior to update 32. The fact that this glorious damage meta is built around a single one piece item is the issue at hand.

It is built around crystal + savage werewolf, idk why everyone point at Oaken when most damaging build isn't even using it.

No. I'm sorry but that isn't true at all.

xDeusEJRx

divnyi wrote: »

ninjagank wrote: »

You can have low TTK without the ring. We just had a big damage meta prior to update 32. The fact that this glorious damage meta is built around a single one piece item is the issue at hand.

It is built around crystal + savage werewolf, idk why everyone point at Oaken when most damaging build isn't even using it.

I like how we have this debate every patch about some proc set that is very OP on a spec and people start meta hopping to that build.
We had dark convergence, plaguebreak, caluurion's legacy, thundercaller, now savage werewolf.

Perhaps the truth is the damage procs were the problem all along. I don't know just a wild guess. Still waiting for zos to put a cap on outgoing proc damage so we can stop having toxic proc pvp

xylena_lazarow

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Perhaps the truth is the damage procs were the problem all along. I don't know just a wild guess. Still waiting for zos to put a cap on outgoing proc damage so we can stop having toxic proc pvp

They put a ton of time and effort into making Ravenwatch just for you. Go bring it to life.

Procs are a convenient boogeyman like hackers or spies for frustrated players to blame their losses on.

DrSlaughtr

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Perhaps the truth is the damage procs were the problem all along. I don't know just a wild guess. Still waiting for zos to put a cap on outgoing proc damage so we can stop having toxic proc pvp

They put a ton of time and effort into making Ravenwatch just for you. Go bring it to life.

Procs are a convenient boogeyman like hackers or spies for frustrated players to blame their losses on.

RW is full of proc sets. They're just currated.

divnyi

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Perhaps the truth is the damage procs were the problem all along. I don't know just a wild guess. Still waiting for zos to put a cap on outgoing proc damage so we can stop having toxic proc pvp

I think it's big oversimplification. Meta builds are good because they take all the best stuff, most effective stat allocation, broken skills, broken ults, broken gear (proc or not). If you just nerf procs, the rest won't change. For example, is stamsorc bad without Savage Werewolf? Well most of it's damage is crystal, savage werewolf is second biggest source of DPS.

But that will also mean that skills will matter more, and so skill imbalances will matter more. Most procs even out those imbalances to certain degree. If you make everyone to wear the same gear, only skill imbalances will matter.

xDeusEJRx

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Perhaps the truth is the damage procs were the problem all along. I don't know just a wild guess. Still waiting for zos to put a cap on outgoing proc damage so we can stop having toxic proc pvp

They put a ton of time and effort into making Ravenwatch just for you. Go bring it to life.

Procs are a convenient boogeyman like hackers or spies for frustrated players to blame their losses on.

I play in ravenwatch just as I play in CP campaign. Unfortunately it's not active enough to play in all the time. So I get forced to play in CP campaigns but proc cheese is everywhere and I find it funny how people pretend as if proc cheese isn't at the forefront of most "meta" builds in this game

xDeusEJRx

divnyi wrote: »

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Perhaps the truth is the damage procs were the problem all along. I don't know just a wild guess. Still waiting for zos to put a cap on outgoing proc damage so we can stop having toxic proc pvp

I think it's big oversimplification. Meta builds are good because they take all the best stuff, most effective stat allocation, broken skills, broken ults, broken gear (proc or not). If you just nerf procs, the rest won't change. For example, is stamsorc bad without Savage Werewolf? Well most of it's damage is crystal, savage werewolf is second biggest source of DPS.

But that will also mean that skills will matter more, and so skill imbalances will matter more. Most procs even out those imbalances to certain degree. If you make everyone to wear the same gear, only skill imbalances will matter.

Then maybe zos should actually work on class imbalances? Should it be acceptable that classes like mag warden still suffer from lack of reliable hard CC options? Or their "burst" heals in class are still very terrible compared to everyone else. Or the fact sorcerer still lacks proper healing options outside of dark exchange.

Sounds like it just shoehorns people into having to play a specific set to make it work instead of allowing player freedom. People call procs a crutch and "cheese" for a reason because they are the sole reason a lot of these builds work in the first place.
Mainly because the classes are basic utility in their toolkit which zos choose to keep ignoring to release more cheese every quarterly cycle. Doesn't validate proc cheese either way. We should expect ZOS to work on classes weaknesses not "hope" one day these problems get settled by procs and forcing players to have to use procs. Not everyone in this game LIKES to play with procs but pvp is heavily skewed to being a proc damage build

xylena_lazarow

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

I find it funny how people pretend as if proc cheese isn't at the forefront of most "meta" builds in this game

Oakensoul is a pure stat set. So were the meta-dominating pre-nerf versions of Malacath and then Acuity. The majority of proc damage sets are too weak and/or too unreliable to see play. If you're trying to say we need better offensive stat sets, I agree, especially for Ravenwatch where Pariah far outclasses any offensive stat set.

xDeusEJRx wrote: »

Not everyone in this game LIKES to play with procs but pvp is heavily skewed to being a proc damage build

The meta Corrosive DK and the meta Inferno instakill builds are both pure stats and get called "cheese" all the time. Meta Templars don't run proc damage either. You're correct that some builds use proc damage to fill class imbalance holes, like Sorc for not having a full PvP damage toolkit. I'll give you that Caluurion's on NB melee ganker is "cheese" since it circumvents both the RNG and travel time while instantly stacking with another burst proc like Ashen Grip.

Dark Convergence and the various pug-stomping death explosion procs are their own can of worms.

Didgerion

Nightwiish wrote: »

If they change Oakensoul in any way shape or form, I will ask for a 100% refund that I spent for High Isle.

The reason why Oakensoul is so popular is because majority of players don't find juggling 10 different buffs with such short durations *fun* gameplay. If they increase the buff durations on buffs like Major Protection, Mending, Vitality and others to be 30+ secs then sure go ahead and change Oakensoul.

You probably didn't read the terms of service agreement, you surely can ask them but they wont reimburse a thing.

No, Oakensoul is so popular because of these 4 buffs that are really hard to get:
- Major Berserk: +10% Damage Done
- Major Force: +20% Critical Damage
- Major Courage: Increase your WD and SD by 430
- Major Heroism: Generates 3 Ultimate every 1.5 seconds

divnyi

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Oakensoul is a pure stat set. So were the meta-dominating pre-nerf versions of Malacath

Malacath was literally the only thing buffing proc damages (before scaling and proc set crits) and it was 40k tanks wearing 2 proc DoT sets + malacath. What's pure stat about that IDK.

xylena_lazarow

divnyi wrote: »

Malacath ... What's pure stat about that IDK.

Malacath itself is a stat buff, additive with other % damage buffs. It's a static passive with permanent uptime, and does no damage on its own. It's a shame they nerfed it so hard when the proc scaling changes alone were enough.

XiangliSYD

People like to play with new cheese. People play game for fun.

I know I am having fun using Oakensoul on some classes I have never played seriously before.

Didgerion

XiangliSYD wrote: »

People like to play with new cheese. People play game for fun.

I know I am having fun using Oakensoul on some classes I have never played seriously before.

And there my friend is a perfect example of Survivorship Bias.

With an item so powerful your fun is causing pain to a lot of other players. Players literally stop playing pvp because of it.

XiangliSYD

Didgerion wrote: »

XiangliSYD wrote: »

People like to play with new cheese. People play game for fun.

I know I am having fun using Oakensoul on some classes I have never played seriously before.

And there my friend is a perfect example of Survivorship Bias.

With an item so powerful your fun is causing pain to a lot of other players. Players literally stop playing pvp because of it.

My most successful pvp character uses 2 bars.

Ranger209

XiangliSYD wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

XiangliSYD wrote: »

People like to play with new cheese. People play game for fun.

I know I am having fun using Oakensoul on some classes I have never played seriously before.

And there my friend is a perfect example of Survivorship Bias.

With an item so powerful your fun is causing pain to a lot of other players. Players literally stop playing pvp because of it.

My most successful pvp character uses 2 bars.

Same for me. I have 16 characters, 3 use the ring. With the ring I can my burst damage is higher, yes, but the survivability of those characters takes a big hit as does controlling the fight. I can really only use 1 heal instead of 2 or 3, and dishing out and dealing with incoming CC is also very limited. I can't really use dots to apply pressure. Maybe I am doing it wrong, but I generally use a burst heal, a spamable, an execute, and with the other 2 slots I can pick from a stun, snare removal, a dot, a purge, or only on my nighblade a cloak. The characters that I use the ring on are really only 1 trick ponies at this point.

MEBengalsFan2001

Ranger209 wrote: »

XiangliSYD wrote: »

Didgerion wrote: »

XiangliSYD wrote: »

People like to play with new cheese. People play game for fun.

I know I am having fun using Oakensoul on some classes I have never played seriously before.

And there my friend is a perfect example of Survivorship Bias.

With an item so powerful your fun is causing pain to a lot of other players. Players literally stop playing pvp because of it.

My most successful pvp character uses 2 bars.

Same for me. I have 16 characters, 3 use the ring. With the ring I can my burst damage is higher, yes, but the survivability of those characters takes a big hit as does controlling the fight. I can really only use 1 heal instead of 2 or 3, and dishing out and dealing with incoming CC is also very limited. I can't really use dots to apply pressure. Maybe I am doing it wrong, but I generally use a burst heal, a spamable, an execute, and with the other 2 slots I can pick from a stun, snare removal, a dot, a purge, or only on my nighblade a cloak. The characters that I use the ring on are really only 1 trick ponies at this point.

All my characters benefit from the ring. More damage is more damage. And more damage is also more healing. There are some minor benefits lost with the ring. For instance the extra resources as a Templar or Warden, minor protection on my Warden. But you make up for those loses with bigger heals and more damage out. 1vs 1 is simply now who is able to target and hit the other player 2-3 times vs 4+ times before the ring and if you don’t have the ring and are not on the defensive bar you tend to die within 3 hits or less. Even my high resistance builds are dying quickly.

As I pointed out the buffs the ring provides cannot be provided with 100% up time with a 2 bar build using 2 gear sets, monster set, mythical and being in a group. You can get most of the buffs on the ring with 100% up time but it will cost some builds damage or healing skills along with limitations on the gear used.