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The Oakensoul Ring has ended the PVP tank meta and ushered in another glorious damage meta

  • TechMaybeHic
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    Just give it the Pale Order treatment when Battlespirit is active: you cannot be healed by other players.

    Any objections?

    I think it's too strong as is but again I have to point out that I still think it's a good idea to help players reach a baseline access to success. Doing this would be the opposite effect leaving it to the hands if players who don't need it
  • DaisyRay
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    jaws343 wrote: »
    DaisyRay wrote: »
    jaws343 wrote: »

    Even if you can get a buff through a skill, you cannot gaurantee it has 100% uptime.

    Maybe you run out of resources so you cannot reapply the buff, maybe you are pressured and have to heal, or put up a shield, or roll dodge, or go on the offensive to secure a close kill.

    So many factors play into your uptime of buffs acquired through skill usage. And the ring eliminates all of that. So, a perfect player may be able to keep 100% uptime on a few of these, but not all. And zero 2 bar players will have every one of these buffs on a build at the same time.

    [While slotted you gain Major Savagery and Prophecy, increasing your Weapon and Spell Critical rating by 2629. ]

    That's one that I usually use and is always active when I attack. It's why it's the one I recall the most. That could be the only one, I'm not sure unless I look it up. Though I honestly don't want to spend time to look it up when you guys are just going to disagree. Lol even when I'm agreeing with you, you find things to argue about. In the end, Zos will do whatever they think is best and we'll all live with it.

    If they nerf it, I'll still use it and adjust my bar. If they don't, I'll keep my build as is. I'm not upset about either, I try not get upset about things that are not in my hands. This is just me sharing my opinion.

    The issue is, you keep saying that you agree to remove or lessen anything that isn't usually 100% uptime on a two bar build without actually knowing what that is. You have repeatedly argued in this post that it isn't that strong, when people are really only saying like 2 of the buffs need to be adjusted, and the ring would still provide more buffs than a 2 bar build could possible have up. This is a direct quote from you earlier in this thread:

    "Oakensoul doesn't carry anyone as it gives you the same thing you would have on a two bar setup."

    My entire reply earlier detailed out how literally only like 3 of the buffs were possible to have 100% uptime on a two bar build. So effectively, the entire ring provides something not possible to two bar builds. What you have stated is provably false. And the frustration here by players who actually want to see this balanced in a meaningful way, without making it useless, is that players who don't really understand the buffs the ring provides are offering balance advice.

    Okay if there are only three at 100% and the rest are only up for a few seconds, would that be bad? I am not saying nothing should be adjusted, I just don't want the ring to be completely nerfed to the point where it pointless to wear. I still agree with my point with the exception of how long they stay up. Which is why I agreed they should change that. However, every buff that you have on the ring could likely be added to your 2bar build. If it can't like you stated with the healer ones then maybe they should be removed.

    I didn't understand the uptime thing at the start of this which is why I was so against the nerf. However, after I thought on it I agreed that buffs that you can't possibly keep up 100% the time should be adjusted. I honestly think we're saying the same thing, but just in a different way.
    ⭑・゚゚・*:༅。.。༅:*゚:*:✼✿ DaisyRay ✿✼:*゚:༅。.。༅:*・゚゚・⭑
  • Holycannoli
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    Just give it the Pale Order treatment when Battlespirit is active: you cannot be healed by other players.

    Any objections?

    Hmm interesting idea. I am a fan of curbing the rampant healing going on.
  • jaws343
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    Just give it the Pale Order treatment when Battlespirit is active: you cannot be healed by other players.

    Any objections?

    Cannot be healed, or buffed in any way, by other players. Plus still remove Major Heroism, and add Major Slayer to keep PVE players happy.
  • DaisyRay
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    Just give it the Pale Order treatment when Battlespirit is active: you cannot be healed by other players.

    Any objections?

    I wouldn't mind that. I usually play solo, so I mostly depend on my own healing and shields.
    ⭑・゚゚・*:༅。.。༅:*゚:*:✼✿ DaisyRay ✿✼:*゚:༅。.。༅:*・゚゚・⭑
  • Thecompton73
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    Just give it the Pale Order treatment when Battlespirit is active: you cannot be healed by other players.

    Any objections?

    I don't think the NB's coming out of stealth and jacking people for 35K in one GCD are worried about cross healing.
  • iaminc
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    AdamLAD wrote: »
    [snip] PvP is a competitive environment and should remain that way. Ever since mythics and overtunned procs where introduced all this has diminished. Insane how wrong zenimax has PvP. Such a shame from the brilliance that was 1.6 patch.

    [snip]
    I’m sure you never ever used any of those sets or mythics to gain a pvp advantage right? [snip]

    [edited for baiting & to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on July 4, 2022 11:33AM
  • Brrrofski
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    AdamLAD wrote: »
    Our argument is that a terrible player who normally has 0 chance against you, now magically is way more of a threat due to one item. Now I KNOW Zenimax wants to low the skill gap. I Have no idea why, let the bad players improve to get better, don't give them hand outs to stay bad at the game, they will never ever get better and thats extremely flawed in PvE and PvP and horrendous for game health, hence why people are outraged.

    If people had followed the last 5 or 6 combat updates, none of these changes would come as a surprise. Multiple times they have stated, rather obliquely, that they want to close the gap between new/casual and sweaty players.

    These changes might be bad for veteran players, for 1vxers, for skilled streamers, etc. But they are not bad for the health of the game. The sole reason this game is still around is that they have systematically catered to casual players.

    The average ESO player is terrible at the game. And it doesn't seem like they care about getting better. All these changes ease and improve their experience. In pvp, they turn regular cannon fodder into a threat.

    You do realise though, that those 1vxers and skilled streamers are also using the ring and wrecking face with it.

    Because they know how to make builds in general. So while Joe noob might put this ring on, his others sets will be trash. Or his skill selection is trash. Or his ability is trash.

    The skilled player has the opposite. So he kills Joe noob easier than before.

    For me, that's the issue. I consider myself a decent player who always holds his own. Right now, if I come across a player not wearing it while I am, it's a bloodbath.

    If two people of equal skill fight, one is wearing it and one is not, the ring wings 99% of the time.

    If people are defending the ring, just be honest why. It's fun, I agree with you. Or you want it to stay strong in pve, which again I agree with you.

    But to say it isn't strong or it's a narrative that streamers or solo players are pushing because it stops them being able to do that is false

    Most solo players rely on high burst and mobility over tankiness. This ring gives more burst than you could ask for, so would benefit solo players too. I'm finding solo play easier with it, mopping people up.

    But it's being that I'm forced to use it, because if I don't, I'm going backwards and so far behind other players.
    Edited by Brrrofski on June 29, 2022 10:43PM
  • Urzigurumash
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    Just give it the Pale Order treatment when Battlespirit is active: you cannot be healed by other players.

    Any objections?

    I don't think the NB's coming out of stealth and jacking people for 35K in one GCD are worried about cross healing.

    Tank up. If you're not a tank you die to ganks. That's how I see it anyhow.

    Edited by Urzigurumash on June 29, 2022 11:29PM
    Xbox NA AD / Day 1 ScrubDK / Wood Orc Cuisine Enthusiast
  • ShadowProc
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    Something must be right. I am g
    Brrrofski wrote: »
    AdamLAD wrote: »
    Our argument is that a terrible player who normally has 0 chance against you, now magically is way more of a threat due to one item. Now I KNOW Zenimax wants to low the skill gap. I Have no idea why, let the bad players improve to get better, don't give them hand outs to stay bad at the game, they will never ever get better and thats extremely flawed in PvE and PvP and horrendous for game health, hence why people are outraged.

    If people had followed the last 5 or 6 combat updates, none of these changes would come as a surprise. Multiple times they have stated, rather obliquely, that they want to close the gap between new/casual and sweaty players.

    These changes might be bad for veteran players, for 1vxers, for skilled streamers, etc. But they are not bad for the health of the game. The sole reason this game is still around is that they have systematically catered to casual players.

    The average ESO player is terrible at the game. And it doesn't seem like they care about getting better. All these changes ease and improve their experience. In pvp, they turn regular cannon fodder into a threat.

    You do realise though, that those 1vxers and skilled streamers are also using the ring and wrecking face with it.

    Because they know how to make builds in general. So while Joe noob might put this ring on, his others sets will be trash. Or his skill selection is trash. Or his ability is trash.

    The skilled player has the opposite. So he kills Joe noob easier than before.

    For me, that's the issue. I consider myself a decent player who always holds his own. Right now, if I come across a player not wearing it while I am, it's a bloodbath.

    If two people of equal skill fight, one is wearing it and one is not, the ring wings 99% of the time.

    If people are defending the ring, just be honest why. It's fun, I agree with you. Or you want it to stay strong in pve, which again I agree with you.

    But to say it isn't strong or it's a narrative that streamers or solo players are pushing because it stops them being able to do that is false

    Most solo players rely on high burst and mobility over tankiness. This ring gives more burst than you could ask for, so would benefit solo players too. I'm finding solo play easier with it, mopping people up.

    But it's being that I'm forced to use it, because if I don't, I'm going backwards and so far behind other players.

    1vxers and streamers make content killing newbies with broken builds. They are in an uproar now because they are killable. Plain and simple. This meta is healthier for the game, just maybe not for those take advantage of newer/bad players.

    But guess what, those newer/bad players are having fun and sticking around vice getting frustrated getting farmed and leaving.

    I encourage all pvers to come get some payback for being taken advantage of all these years. Enjoy it while you can before the the streamers/1vxers (smallest group in game), get their way so they can go back to being unkillable and take advantage again.
  • divnyi
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    ShadowProc wrote: »
    I encourage all pvers to come get some payback for being taken advantage of all these years. Enjoy it while you can before the the streamers/1vxers (smallest group in game), get their way so they can go back to being unkillable and take advantage again.

    1vXers use oaken with ultgen builds today. They are unkillable. It's just boring.
  • Wolfpaw
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    1. Stop the Nerf Cycle
    2. Remove most/all nerfs to mythics and sets of the past so they stop living rent free in the bank.
    3. Let real build diversity thrive
    4. Have fun.
  • divnyi
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    jaws343 wrote: »
    when people are really only saying like 2 of the buffs need to be adjusted

    Speaking of which, people generally point to 2 wrong buffs. Ofc Heroism should go off, that's out of the question. But huge spike in ganker damage is generally Major Berserk, not Major Force. Outside NB, you can't guarantee crit, and NB would do better with heavy->skill rather than just skill.
  • ShadowProc
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    divnyi wrote: »
    ShadowProc wrote: »
    I encourage all pvers to come get some payback for being taken advantage of all these years. Enjoy it while you can before the the streamers/1vxers (smallest group in game), get their way so they can go back to being unkillable and take advantage again.

    1vXers use oaken with ultgen builds today. They are unkillable. It's just boring.

    Not true. They are all killable. I have proven that constantly since this ring dropped. A lot of people have. That’s why they keep complaining. None of them are safe. They are not used to dying and it is driving them nuts with accusations
    There is not a single player that can’t be killed. That includes the two EP in Greyhost who think they can tank the entire AD faction everyday. Lol.

    It has been so much fun. Everyone is dying a lot. It has been great. Why would anyone want to go back to the unkillable days. Oh that’s right. To prey on the weak and get clicks.
    Edited by ShadowProc on June 30, 2022 2:16AM
  • DaisyRay
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    @ZOS

    One thing you could do is just take all buffs and procs out of pvp. I see a lot of people saying sets and buffs are carrying us, so what better way to solve the problem then to remove them from pvp all together. Then we'll all have an even floor to focus purely on just "skill".
    ⭑・゚゚・*:༅。.。༅:*゚:*:✼✿ DaisyRay ✿✼:*゚:༅。.。༅:*・゚゚・⭑
  • divnyi
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    @DaisyRay that's noCP cyro for you. Most of us hate it. And ye, things like oaken shouldn't be in noproc environment.
  • divnyi
    divnyi
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    ShadowProc wrote: »
    divnyi wrote: »
    ShadowProc wrote: »
    I encourage all pvers to come get some payback for being taken advantage of all these years. Enjoy it while you can before the the streamers/1vxers (smallest group in game), get their way so they can go back to being unkillable and take advantage again.

    1vXers use oaken with ultgen builds today. They are unkillable. It's just boring.

    Not true. They are all killable. I have proven that constantly since this ring dropped.

    Same as old 1vX builds. They weren't completely immortal, just hard to take down.

    Corrosive 1vXers in current state aren't dying to additional damage from Oakensoul, because corrosive caps that damage anyway. They die to dots. And best dot builds are still 2 bar.

    Btw, it's weird that we don't see any outcry about Savage Werewolf on the forums, set literally does double the intended dps, and intended dps is highest proc set dot.
  • xylena_lazarow
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    divnyi wrote: »
    Btw, it's weird that we don't see any outcry about Savage Werewolf on the forums, set literally does double the intended dps, and intended dps is highest proc set dot.
    That should tell you the sorry state that DoT/pressure damage is in, and has been in for years. While SWW/WoF Bow Sorc can kill some in 2-3 GCDs from range, tankier enemies will still out-heal its pressure. The build can't face tank or spam invisbility, honestly one of the better balanced "glass cannons" we've had. Also, check your Combat Metrics regarding SWW, reports of it being "op" have been greatly exaggerated by the sort of player who cries when they can't out-heal everything.

    Want a healthier meta? Buff DoT/pressure damage, nerf heals and one-shot burst damage. Combat should be a dynamic back-and-forth power struggle, not a binary state of players being instantly dead or instantly back to full hp.
    PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps
  • divnyi
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    Want a healthier meta? Buff DoT/pressure damage, nerf heals and one-shot burst damage. Combat should be a dynamic back-and-forth power struggle, not a binary state of players being instantly dead or instantly back to full hp.

    I want that, but I don't agree on the methods. Dots are decent atm - especially set DoTs that don't eat GCDs.
    It's HoTs that overperforming.

    You solve this issue by reducing damage in battle spirit, so no 2 GCD burst wouldn't be enough to kill.
    Then you reduce healing even more than that, to like 60% of damage. Also nerf cross-heal stacking.

    If you just buff DoTs, you still have burst meta, but with several dots being applied before. Ultimately, those dots are there just to get you to 70-80% of your max HP, where they can burst combo. And that's not better state than in what we are already in. It's still burst meta, with few extra steps.

    Edit1: OK "dots are decent" doesn't apply to like 80% of dot skills really, I mean "there are decent dots". I agree that dots were overnerfed during dot standartisation, they should receive like +10%-20% over the board.
    Edited by divnyi on June 30, 2022 2:22PM
  • xylena_lazarow
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    divnyi wrote: »
    I want that, but I don't agree on the methods.
    Devs often say that players are much better at identifying problems than solving them. Let the devs worry about solving the problem, us players agreeing on the problem and bringing it to their attention is the best possible first step.
    PC/NA || CP/Cyro || RIP soft caps
  • chrisub17_ESO104
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    I think the ring is showing just how much gear matters more then skill. It's boosting the power of those without access to the best gear far more then those with it.

    Skill does matter, but players always attribute more to their own skill then is warranted.

    I'm also seeing that players with the easiest access to gear seem to be the ones complaining more. I can't find a streamer who likes this ring. Maybe that's just coincidence? I doubt it.

    Streamers are the worst people to be listening to about this. They don't play the game like most of us do. I love those guys for the theory crafting they do that I can leverage. Keep giving them gold because information is the best way to level the playing field for a lot of players. But at the same time they are not in touch with the average player.

    Before oakensoul I was struggling to be competitive. I'm a returning player. I'm a competitive player I have zero issues managing two bars, I've been proficient with my naga and keyboard for many years. I simply don't have the time to grind out gear sets and don't even get me started on jewelry costs. And with how the meta changes so much, and if you want a bit of variety not stuck playing just a single character mostly. Well it's impossible for someone even with skill to be competitive without also investing a ton of time into gear grinds.

    Now I can go out and go face to face with players that before I couldn't. That gap is obviously the gear. It always was mostly the gear.

    This has held true in every mmo I've played, going back to Ultima Online. There are a core set of skills common to games like input handling. Keyboard/naga/controller/whatever. Then theory crafting but that is now easier then ever with so much shared information. And when you boil it all down the actual skill specific to the game is relatively smaller.

    I'm sure my fun will end sooner then later. And I'll go back to being average, because of course I just don't have the skills.
  • TechMaybeHic
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    I think the ring is showing just how much gear matters more then skill. It's boosting the power of those without access to the best gear far more then those with it.

    Skill does matter, but players always attribute more to their own skill then is warranted.

    I'm also seeing that players with the easiest access to gear seem to be the ones complaining more. I can't find a streamer who likes this ring. Maybe that's just coincidence? I doubt it.

    Streamers are the worst people to be listening to about this. They don't play the game like most of us do. I love those guys for the theory crafting they do that I can leverage. Keep giving them gold because information is the best way to level the playing field for a lot of players. But at the same time they are not in touch with the average player.

    Before oakensoul I was struggling to be competitive. I'm a returning player. I'm a competitive player I have zero issues managing two bars, I've been proficient with my naga and keyboard for many years. I simply don't have the time to grind out gear sets and don't even get me started on jewelry costs. And with how the meta changes so much, and if you want a bit of variety not stuck playing just a single character mostly. Well it's impossible for someone even with skill to be competitive without also investing a ton of time into gear grinds.

    Now I can go out and go face to face with players that before I couldn't. That gap is obviously the gear. It always was mostly the gear.

    This has held true in every mmo I've played, going back to Ultima Online. There are a core set of skills common to games like input handling. Keyboard/naga/controller/whatever. Then theory crafting but that is now easier then ever with so much shared information. And when you boil it all down the actual skill specific to the game is relatively smaller.

    I'm sure my fun will end sooner then later. And I'll go back to being average, because of course I just don't have the skills.

    I understand where you are coming from a little bit. I've felt like I've been competitive, but completely refused the proc meta since it took off. I didn't like it and I sure didn't want to go farm it. When they did no proc testing in Cyridiil I felt like a good and it felt like most others had crutches swept out from under them, buy it was short lived.

    Now; I saw the potential in Oakensoul and gave in and got it. I'm meta for the first time since seventh legion healed whenever hit. Almost feel like a God again again if it weren't for VD and occult overload. I'm having fun. But much like that no-proc test; it doesn't mean it's right.
  • neferpitou73
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    DaisyRay wrote: »
    @ZOS

    One thing you could do is just take all buffs and procs out of pvp. I see a lot of people saying sets and buffs are carrying us, so what better way to solve the problem then to remove them from pvp all together. Then we'll all have an even floor to focus purely on just "skill".

    You already have that in Raven. And being that it's very sparsely populated I don't think many people enjoy it (at least on PCNA). Leave us who enjoy playing with unique buffs and procs alone please.

    I think the lesson of Oakensoul is that the buffs it provides need to be more widely available in general. Unless you're in a ball group you're not getting half these buffs. A good many of them are sourced from one awkward skill or set. For example if you're not in a group running horn or saxhleel, you don't have major force. If you don't have a healer running SPC or Olorime you don't have courage, etc.

    I do like the fact that solo players have these buffs so they can be more competitive but putting them all in one package seems a bit much tbh.

  • PhoenixGrey
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    DaisyRay wrote: »
    You want the ring to stay as is because of how it benefits you without considering how it has negatively impacted pvp, including punishing players who don't want to use it.

    Aren't you kind of doing the same? You want to take it away because you either can't get it/don't want it or you don't want to adjust the build you already have. So to make things easier for you, you just want it gone or nerfed. When there are actual player like me who uses to ring to keep up with the more experienced players.

    When you wear the ring, you are much better than any experienced player in the game.

  • Emmagoldman
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    geonsocal wrote: »
    lots of build opportunities with brokensoul...

    honestly, for those of you who spend most of your eso time fighting other players - do you really miss bar-swapping and constantly having to buff yourself and practice your rotations...

    Yes, that is what has made eso pvp unique and challenging. You have to learn when to go offensive, defensive, apply pressure, remove snares and catch people when they stretch out too thin. One of the worse patches for sure.
  • Emmagoldman
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    xDeusEJRx wrote: »
    So you're trying to say a set is balancing pvp? Sounds like the set is overperforming.

    Sets never should balance pvp, they should be trying to make the game balance on it's own. Not slapping sets on the game to fix balance. Zos needs to stop introducing sets to balance the game and fix broken crap.

    Dark convergence didn't fix game balance, Plaguebreak didn't fix balance, Crimson didn't, malacath didin't, Sload's didn't.
    Oakensoul doesnt either. It's just OP in pvp for the same of OP

    They need to actually make the game balanced and stop using sets to balance pvp that is terribly balanced

    100% agree. I was extremely happy when they began rebalancing sets. For a short period there was a feeling of slow changes and balancing. Then, ZOS stated they wanted to be sure to move towards class identity as standardization of skills meant there was a shift from distinction. Cool idea

    They Flipped to the other end and as you stated, used sets to try and bring balance. Hybridization, as interesting as it is, tossed identity aside and pvp is overall is just a hot mess. Shifting the meta towards 5 skills, changes the games in major ways.

    Sadly, zos is catering to the base that is looking for the easiest way to get the biggest result. Why even learn a class or for that matter, we could just eliminate a huge portion of skills from the game and simplify it as much as possible.
  • Cuddlypuff
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    geonsocal wrote: »
    lots of build opportunities with brokensoul...

    honestly, for those of you who spend most of your eso time fighting other players - do you really miss bar-swapping and constantly having to buff yourself and practice your rotations...

    Yes, that is what has made eso pvp unique and challenging. You have to learn when to go offensive, defensive, apply pressure, remove snares and catch people when they stretch out too thin. One of the worse patches for sure.

    This literally only applies to the <1% of the pvp population that attempts 1vX. And the majority of those are just tanks roleplaying 1vX while locked onto their backbars waiting for that lucky balorgh ult. Even good players are dying more when running Oakensoul compared to their 2 bar setups. It's just the tradeoff for having extra damage.
  • ZOS_Icy
    ZOS_Icy
    mod
    Greetings,

    We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.

    Thank you for your understanding.
    Staff Post
  • Holycannoli
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    They Flipped to the other end and as you stated, used sets to try and bring balance. Hybridization, as interesting as it is, tossed identity aside and pvp is overall is just a hot mess. Shifting the meta towards 5 skills, changes the games in major ways.

    I'm torn on the whole hybridization thing. Identity has been tossed aside but Elder Scrolls games have never been about identity (they've also been single player) so I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with it.

    But I totally agree that sets and gear are not the way to balance PvP. The only real way to balance it - which we will never get by the way - is to have skills work differently in PvE and PvP, allowing for PvP balancing without upsetting the core PvE. Battle Spirit and NoCP campaigns are an attempt to help with some of that but we see how popular the NoCP campaign is so that's not working.

    I actually don't mind the extra damage going around. People are dying and the pace of PvP seems fairly fast. In BGs people are melting. It's not a bad thing IMO. I prefer a fast paced damage meta to a slow paced tank meta personally. But opinions are like backsides - everyone has one. My imperial stam sorc main is putting out some great damage with High Isle but dies just as fast because everyone else is benefitting too. I don't mind. It's fun.
    Edited by Holycannoli on July 5, 2022 5:43PM
  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    You can have low TTK without the ring. We just had a big damage meta prior to update 32. The fact that this glorious damage meta is built around a single one piece item is the issue at hand.
    I drink and I stream things.
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