Oakensoul Granting Heroism is Not Acceptable

HonestLoverr

acastanza_ESO wrote: »

@HonestLoverr my complaints which originated this post are based on my, and my groups, experience both running and fighting against Oakensoul. It is not theory crafting, it is a fact. Ultspam is absolutely a thing now. Admittedly Oakensoul didn't create this problem, building for ult-gen was always possible, but stacking building for ult-gen with so many other buffs is just unworkable. Everyone I've encountered who actually has Oakensoul and is running it in PVP has agreed that it is way overpowered and that something needs to be done to reign it in because it has substantially affected PVP for the worse in a very short time even with less than 50% of people running it.

@xylena_lazarow I think a lot of PVPers - including the ones running it, like myself, would be extremely happy if Battlespririt disabled this ring.

Nothing wrong with giving feedback. Everyone has their own opinion on things. The only problem with PvP though is, we have 4 seperate balance aspects for PvP to keep in mind, with one of them absolutely unnessessary to even talk about. CP Cyrodiil, No CP + No Proc Cyrodiil, and No CP battlegrounds. IC is the one that is not even worth mentioning. It be though, if it would be populated. Why? Because certain sets only work when inside IC.

If i understood you right, you are coming from Ravenwatch. Your TTK there is way lower than CP Cyrodiil AND battlegrounds. Compared to bg's you have to include scroll and emp buffs on top. So oaken will have a much heavier impact on damage for you guys than it has for CP Cyrodiil that has not just more sets enabled, but also the whole CP system. What works for you, might not work for us on GH. And vice versa. What works in battlegrounds, won't work as good on GH either. And before the PvEers get in here and complain again about us PvPers, the whole PvE aspect is still there as well. Not to mention the ninja changes made by ZOS every now and then that directly influence every outcome no matter if damage, mitigation or healing.

So at the end there are just way too many things to consider before calling any nerf justified.

TechMaybeHic

Really from what I hear from players I've fought with and against that are known decent to top level PvPers and the groups they run with regularly; ring is OP and already highly used. The limited counter argument I see [snip], but that doesn't really tip the scale

[edited for baiting]

Tommy_The_Gun

spacefracking wrote: »

Yep. This set is totally bananas, I can't believe anyone ever thought it was a good idea other than to create the usual patch drama -_______-

People on PTS were more focused on making this set useless for WW, so it ended up being basically "a WW" in a mythic, as it pretty much provides same or stronger buffs as WW has as passives, but the only drawback is one bar, without being locked out with only a preset of skills & no access to other passives...

DUTCH_REAPER

Can I just say that the guy who made the plug for his friend liking the ring because his friend likes not having all the glowing buffs proves that Fashion is True Endgame ladies and gentleman

Master_Kas

Love the people defending this. I bought update just for this mythic and I can't believe ZOS let this out like this.

I sense alot of people talk out of their a** or haven't run into any decent ganker with this ring on. xD

Rhaegar75

Like many people have already flagged Major Heroism is what makes this Mythic way OP and too oppressive.

I'm an average PvPer at best and I can get very close to spamming powerful/expensive ultimate abilities just by relying on my gear.....hardly skilled gameplay.

I think and hope that a major adjustment will be delivered soon but in the meantime I'm actually enjoying a rise from my typical PvP mediocrity

Cadbury

At the end of the day, all that matters is what ZOS thinks. If they happen to decide Oakensoul is overtuned, then I suspect we'll see a nerf probably later rather than sooner.

Like the kilt, Malacath's ring, and the Thrassian Stranglers before it, I'm sure this is on their radar.

DrSlaughtr

The issue is that by creating an item to make the game easier for those with accessibility issues, you have given an item to experienced able-bodied players who are using it to create toxic builds that will either force others to do the same or maybe just not play anymore.

I won't play that game. I'm not going to use the item on my NBs and I look forward to dealing with those who need it to compete rather than actually learn how to play the class. DKs, however, concern me greatly, because they are already difficult to deal with (even the less skilled ones), and having 80% uptime on corrosive is just stupid.

I've seen many people proclaim that heroism (major or minor) is needed to make the build competitive damage wise but I strongly disagree. Take away heroism and it already provides everything you need a backbar for. People have been running one bar builds to clear all kinds of content for years. You really going to tell me heroism is needed?

The truth is if you removed heroism, most of these toxic players would abandon the ring and go back to their traditional setup. The people who want to use the ring for accessibility purposes will still get great benefit out of it.

neferpitou73

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

why would a ball group use oakensoul lmao ?

Actually I was thinking that in a "Ball Group" the biggest flaw of the Oakensoul is um... ignored, since ball group builds are basically highly specialised "spam" builds with only a couple of skills being used. So definitely "only one bar" would not be an issue. Especially in no CP / No Proc as there is less things to worry about.

No. I'd never even touch Oakensoul in a ball group comp. The only buffs Oakensoul gives that our comp doesn't already have are Major Heorism and Major Berserk (and major force, but we don't run crit and could just add horn if we wanted it that badly). On the other hand we get major buffs from the sets we run on backbar as well as extra room for buff/delayed damage skills that don't fit well on the frontbar.

If anything I'm glad that Oakensoul has all of these ridiculous buffs because now people can stop complaining that we get buffs they can't.

I'm going to amend this a bit. After working a comp out for a couple days as an experiment you can create pretty nasty comps with this. I doubt they'll be too superior to normal ones unless the ult spam adds a ton of damage but it's extremely viable.

acastanza_ESO

Honestly what they should do is take the Major Heroism from Oakensoul and put it on to Shapeshifter's Chain.

divnyi

If you ever thought that Corrosive + Oaken ultgain is broken, try Practiced Incantation

CameraBeardThePirate

Ok here's the thing: i don't think oakensoul is strong. Is it good? Yes. Very good even on very specific builds. The builds that feel OP with oakensoul are already arguably too strong. MagDK heavy attack one shot builds have existed for a few patches. Anyone who's played BGs will be able to tell you how strong Corrosive Whip DKs have been for a couple patches too.

In my honest opinion, the only thing that could potentially use a nerf on oakensoul is the major force. The ult gen is strong but it only amplifies setups that are already good. The thing that really makes oakensoul builds viable is the fact that crits are going to be hitting insanely hard.

divnyi

@CameraBeardThePirate major force only really works in crit-dedicated builds, which is very small subsection of what ppl play with Oaken, and even smaller subsection of what's actually broken with Oaken.

There weren't that many good item sources of ultimate gain before. Ult gain doesn't amplify anything, it creates new build types that spam ultis nonstop and are effective because they spam them nonstop, it wasn't possible to go nonstop before.

neferpitou73

divnyi wrote: »

If you ever thought that Corrosive + Oaken ultgain is broken, try Practiced Incantation

Or trees. I'd imagine that'd be very potent for a healer, not in solo but in a group.

jaws343

neferpitou73 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

If you ever thought that Corrosive + Oaken ultgain is broken, try Practiced Incantation

Or trees. I'd imagine that'd be very potent for a healer, not in solo but in a group.

I think restro ult and sword and board ult are going to be outright abused with this for anyone willing to rock a resto or sword and shield offensively. But also, for healers. Being able to apply restro ult on a much lower (if any) cooldown is going to be broken for small groups.

divnyi

neferpitou73 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

If you ever thought that Corrosive + Oaken ultgain is broken, try Practiced Incantation

Or trees. I'd imagine that'd be very potent for a healer, not in solo but in a group.

20 range vs 8 range.
Ground vs Character-centered.
HoT numbers are 3 times higher.
Initial heal number on trees is solo target and is the same as each second tick on Incantation.

Well sure it's group thing, because it is healing. But probably not large group PvP, it doesn't save you from DPS comptelely.
But in BGs, on the other hand

DrSlaughtr

Let me put it this way. If you don't think major heroism is too strong, run minor heroism poisons and you'll see just how ridiculously easy it is to rotate your ultimates. When I used to run bow, I ran minor heroism poisons and I could hit toxic barrage about once every 30 seconds in sustained combat. Base ultimate cost 175.

Those poisons are expensive so I stopped using them, and now I don't even use a bow.

Udrath

Ring shouldn’t have major force, major berserk, major protection and major heroism. Everything else including major courage is fine IMO. Major force and major heroism are especially too strong to have 24/7

ShadowProc

Udrath wrote: »

Ring shouldn’t have major force, major berserk, major protection and major heroism. Everything else including major courage is fine IMO. Major force and major heroism are especially too strong to have 24/7

Disagree. Fine the way it is. People are actually dying now. Those that complain don’t like to die and kill noobs. Now everyone can be killed. Leave it.

xylena_lazarow

ShadowProc wrote: »

Disagree. Fine the way it is. People are actually dying now. Those that complain don’t like to die and kill noobs. Now everyone can be killed. Leave it.

They're not dying when they've got near full uptime on defensive ults...

There's also the perceived "P2W" aspect of this ring, in which players feel pressured to drop $40 on an expansion just to be competitive in PvP, knowing it'll probably be nerfed at some point due to all the complaints about it.

TechMaybeHic

The more I see; this might be the most blatantly broken item since sloads

blistb16_ESO

Oakensoul enjoyer


PVP is complete garbage right now

Ominer

I just spent some time in Imperial City on PC EU, 7 fights in a row all players were using Oakensoul builds. DKs spamming flames of Oblivion hitting for 7.5k with 18k molten whips while having near permanent uptime on corrosive. Magsorcs hitting me with 13k crystal frags suddenly with constant ice comets. Time for a little break again I think until it's more reasonable.

Wolfpaw

No more nerf, let the damage flow.

Urzigurumash

HonestLoverr wrote: »

So at the end there are just way too many things to consider before calling any nerf justified.

Yes you have a point. The complexity of this game's combat system is one of the things that makes it so great.

But I'm sure you understand many are alarmed by this item, since it will affect the way a player builds their character more than any other single item set in this game's history.

I'm looking forward to it though, it seems fun, also though I'm a big fan of Corrosive, always have been.

neferpitou73 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

If you ever thought that Corrosive + Oaken ultgain is broken, try Practiced Incantation

Or trees. I'd imagine that'd be very potent for a healer, not in solo but in a group.

I rather thought that a MagDen Healer was one of the few specs that could be much more powerful without Oakensoul, because of Pearls of Ehlnofey. That Mythic gives you more Ult than Major Heroism if you use it right, goes best with Trees, and of course MagDen has Shimmering Shield. It's what I use on my MagDen healer already but I'm not very experienced with Warden or Healing.

However in my opinion Trees is a viable option on a StamDen Brawler on live as a backbar Ult, so maybe Trees + Oakensoul might work on that - in that maybe the StamDen can go without another Heal slotted at all, fitting in Race or Turn Evil or Gripping Shards, or whatever.

Speaking of Gripping Shards, even though Oakensoul reduces our skill slots, I think it's one of the more interesting benefits that the extra Mag and GCDs we'll have from not buffing can be used on otherwise sub-par slot choices, like Gripping Shards, or things like that. Skills with a cool and useful effect which can really enhance the unique characteristics of a build, but which just weren't viable for many over the years.

So to me that's related to an interesting, unanswered question of Oakensoul - will it be a homogenizing force, or the opposite? Both in regards to set and skill selection.

Theignson

I'd like to post a few thoughts about Oakensoul , and I'm not sure where I come down in this debate.

First, for whatever reason, I am almost never in groups in Zerodil. This puts me at a disadvantage in terms of buffs.
The ring is the only way I can get all these buffs (eg major heroism, major force, major berserk all at once)as as solo. So that is very attractive.

Next, I've tried 5 different builds with the ring: Brawler NB, cloaking NB, M DK ultigen, Bow sorc, and templar.

gank NB is super over powered with this ring. So is ulti-gen DK. Brawling NB, not so much, you get a better build with 2 bars. Sorc: hits hard but better on 2 bars. Templar: its a pretty good build with both strong damage and healing, but probably no better than 2 bars.

I miss having 2 bars in PvP with these builds. These builds are extremely limited in playstyle. On the other hand, it is fun to make new builds and get creative about what skills you'll cram onto 1 bar.

You can gain a lot with this ring but also lose a lot. So I think its an interesting and fun item.

Kikazaru

This patch have become gank city since this item has been introduced. I can't even catch my breath without a ganker trying to take me down lol. The last patch wasn't this bad.

Edit: This mythic item is unbalanced and has made this meta cycle feel more toxic than the last.

xMauiWaui

ManDraKE wrote: »

Disable the item for PvP until you can find a way to balance it. Don't ruin PvP for 6 months - 1 year just for a single item

You rlly think Zos disable the best way to get Money from PVP Players?

Il find it more crazy that so many player now pay fro this Set and play a 1 Bar Char. Most played Eso over Wow or other MMo cause of the crazy Combat System. And now? All wanna play the easiest way.

We play an MMO but seems Zos wanna give the player a Chance to be the best in 1 Day.

Its a joke from Zos and from Eso Community.

TechMaybeHic

xMauiWaui wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

Disable the item for PvP until you can find a way to balance it. Don't ruin PvP for 6 months - 1 year just for a single item

You rlly think Zos disable the best way to get Money from PVP Players?

Il find it more crazy that so many player now pay fro this Set and play a 1 Bar Char. Most played Eso over Wow or other MMo cause of the crazy Combat System. And now? All wanna play the easiest way.

We play an MMO but seems Zos wanna give the player a Chance to be the best in 1 Day.

Its a joke from Zos and from Eso Community.

At some point, you.just use what's needed to be competitive, so I wouldn't blame the community for doing it. It raised both floor and ceiling but raised the floor just slightly more in pvp as positions, movement, when to roll dodge or block are still key factors. So is keeping your HOTs and healing and knowing when to hit your burst window. The good players mostly don't feel much of effect from not having to swap bars, but they sure will feel the advantage of not having to spend the GCDs to rebuff every few seconds. And of course; having a few buffs you can't even maintain if you can even get at all on a 2 bar build.


It's definitely a huge power shift behind a pay wall to where I don't see them touching too soon. Really will be a business ethics measuring stick to see how they.proceed but they might say how they've left PB and DC for so long and those are not behind a pay wall. Those are really just an annoyance compared to Oakensoul though.

neferpitou73

I'd really advise ZOS, that when they eventually nerf this, to only target the major heroism and not other aspects. Because I actually like the idea of this mythic.