Is it time to deal with HOT stacking or rework anti-ball group sets?

xylena_lazarow

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Balls don't kill people for AP (at least not entirely) they do it mostly for the fight.

If it isn't against players on your own competitive level, then it's not much of a fight, just a power fantasy that plays out more like PvE than PvP. Maybe ask yourself why so many competitive groups avoid fighting other competitive groups. All I keep hearing in zone from my faction's ball group players is how they get "bored" fighting the other faction's ball group.

Amottica

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

React wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@neferpitou73 you are talking about organizing, roles etc, but why do you dodging the main point of this thread - organized group has Vigor + Radiant Regeneration stacks, which doesn't require you to fit any role, you spam it regardless of your role.

Vigor heals 3 times less than resolving vigor. Given 12man group, it means you get 4 resolving vigors running all the time just from ONE skill. FOUR. RESOLVING. VIGORS. And I didn't count radiant regens in. How is this fair?

Because I don't think it's an issue. My group only runs Vigor/RR on our healers and we still stomp zergs. It's the group coordination and division of labor that allows ball groups to survive. If I'm on a DD I don't have to worry about keeping myself alive and can just run into groups relying on my talented healers to keep me alive. Likewise my healers can rely on the DDs to just kill everything so they can focus on keeping things alive.

I'm just saying, you guys have had two ball group leads come into this thread to tell you they don't think the heal stacks are the issue but have provided several other reasons why they think groups are dominating/overtuned. And we spend hours theorycrafting these comps so we know what we're talking about. Perhaps we should tackle these things before we mess with healing, which will affect literally every part of the game?

I don't know why everyone in this thread glazes over the fact that the ball groups are by far, the largest negative impact on performance that exists. Zenimax themselves acknowledged this back at the beginning of their year of performance testing, and said that the reason they have such a negative impact on server performance is because of the spamming of abilities and the constant calculations related to those abilities.

It is so obvious that having 5 RRs and 5 vigors on you should not exist in the game, and even more obvious that removing the ability to do this will be the easiest way to massively reduce the calculations your "coordinated groups" cause. As the ball group players themselves have said "we'll adapt". So what is the issue with removing this function?

And yet when they did test to see if those abilities were the problem they saw no improvement in performance. And mysteriously when they actually fixed their servers there was no lag even at prime time with several ball groups on the server.

Technically Zenimax did see improvement served side when they did those Cyrodiil tests, though they did not get into specifics about which tests showed improvement.

The main takeaway Zenimax provided is that none of the testing showed any meaningful improvements. So you are correct to note that the testing debunked the theory that stacking of hots does not create that much stress on the server compared to anything else based on actual testing and data received by Zenimax looking into this.

This is untrue. Zenimax cited ball groups as the number one contributor to the heavy calculations that strained the servers, and following the tests they did confirm that they saw a noticeable reduction in strain on the servers during their tests specifically targeting these groups.

What you're glossing over is that the tests were done on the old server hardware, which we now know was the most major part of the issue. Since PC NA has had its hardware replaced, we have seen what I would call a near 80-90% recovery in server performance in cyrodiil - the only time the game lags or becomes "unplayable" is when there are several ball groups present and spamming heals.

The tests did prove that ball groups severely strain the servers, and the PC NA hardware replacement has shown us that ball groups might be the only remaining thing holding us back from "around the clock" near perfect performance in cyrodiil.

@React

I respect you have an opinion about "ball groups". However, my comment was not professing my opinion but merely recanted what Zenimax stated concerning the test results. I am providing a quote from Gina which demonstrates without question that my statement you quoted is 100% factually correct and in context. A number of the tests were designed to diminish the effectiveness of groups using AoEs making it relative to your opinion on "ball groups" but not important to what I stated.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

I made bold the sentence where she clearly states that none of these had a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience.

Further, the new server hardware improvement brings a relative improvement to everything. It does not pick and choose. So it is inaccurate to suggest I am glossing over anything. I do not find in her comment concerning the test results stated that the tests proved ball groups severely strain the servers. Please provide the

Respectfully,
Amo

As you can see in the quote you used here, the tests (which specifically targeted group size, out of group healing, and the frequency you could use AOE heals at) provided a 25% reduction in server frame spikes, which is the zenimax term for instances where the game has skill delay.. This is a massive reduction - but at the time, it did not matter because the core issue then was the server hardware being out of date. A 25% reduction in lag spikes was not enough for them to justify the sweeping changes they were considering. However, this again was on old server hardware. Since we are on new server hardware now and the only time we see skill delay is in the presence of "ball groups", we can ascertain that the core issue is now the "ball group behaviors" which these tests proved have a strong negative affect on performance.

The easiest way to target that behavior is to begin with the nerfing of heal stacking, as it will signifcantly reduce the calculations being caused by these groups.

All of this is of course without even considering the balance side of things, because anyone defending the ability to have 5 RRs and 5 EVs on every single person in a 12 man group clearly does not have a good understanding of balance.

They did 8 tests in total including one that both increased the cost of AoE skills while reducing regen with each use of an AoE skill to the cap. This clearly would have an impact on heal stacking though the degree is obviously something we do not know. I certainly woujdl reduce the use of AoE skill which is prett much going to be the bread and butter of what some people seem to call ball groups.

Since Zenimax did add more tests to their original plan, which included the test I reference above, it stands to reason that they did not see the need to test heal stacking itself. Regardless, it is an assumption that nerfing heal stacking would significantly improve server performance. Neither of us has the actual data to know.

neferpitou73

Amottica wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

React wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@neferpitou73 you are talking about organizing, roles etc, but why do you dodging the main point of this thread - organized group has Vigor + Radiant Regeneration stacks, which doesn't require you to fit any role, you spam it regardless of your role.

Vigor heals 3 times less than resolving vigor. Given 12man group, it means you get 4 resolving vigors running all the time just from ONE skill. FOUR. RESOLVING. VIGORS. And I didn't count radiant regens in. How is this fair?

Because I don't think it's an issue. My group only runs Vigor/RR on our healers and we still stomp zergs. It's the group coordination and division of labor that allows ball groups to survive. If I'm on a DD I don't have to worry about keeping myself alive and can just run into groups relying on my talented healers to keep me alive. Likewise my healers can rely on the DDs to just kill everything so they can focus on keeping things alive.

I'm just saying, you guys have had two ball group leads come into this thread to tell you they don't think the heal stacks are the issue but have provided several other reasons why they think groups are dominating/overtuned. And we spend hours theorycrafting these comps so we know what we're talking about. Perhaps we should tackle these things before we mess with healing, which will affect literally every part of the game?

I don't know why everyone in this thread glazes over the fact that the ball groups are by far, the largest negative impact on performance that exists. Zenimax themselves acknowledged this back at the beginning of their year of performance testing, and said that the reason they have such a negative impact on server performance is because of the spamming of abilities and the constant calculations related to those abilities.

It is so obvious that having 5 RRs and 5 vigors on you should not exist in the game, and even more obvious that removing the ability to do this will be the easiest way to massively reduce the calculations your "coordinated groups" cause. As the ball group players themselves have said "we'll adapt". So what is the issue with removing this function?

And yet when they did test to see if those abilities were the problem they saw no improvement in performance. And mysteriously when they actually fixed their servers there was no lag even at prime time with several ball groups on the server.

Technically Zenimax did see improvement served side when they did those Cyrodiil tests, though they did not get into specifics about which tests showed improvement.

The main takeaway Zenimax provided is that none of the testing showed any meaningful improvements. So you are correct to note that the testing debunked the theory that stacking of hots does not create that much stress on the server compared to anything else based on actual testing and data received by Zenimax looking into this.

This is untrue. Zenimax cited ball groups as the number one contributor to the heavy calculations that strained the servers, and following the tests they did confirm that they saw a noticeable reduction in strain on the servers during their tests specifically targeting these groups.

What you're glossing over is that the tests were done on the old server hardware, which we now know was the most major part of the issue. Since PC NA has had its hardware replaced, we have seen what I would call a near 80-90% recovery in server performance in cyrodiil - the only time the game lags or becomes "unplayable" is when there are several ball groups present and spamming heals.

The tests did prove that ball groups severely strain the servers, and the PC NA hardware replacement has shown us that ball groups might be the only remaining thing holding us back from "around the clock" near perfect performance in cyrodiil.

@React

I respect you have an opinion about "ball groups". However, my comment was not professing my opinion but merely recanted what Zenimax stated concerning the test results. I am providing a quote from Gina which demonstrates without question that my statement you quoted is 100% factually correct and in context. A number of the tests were designed to diminish the effectiveness of groups using AoEs making it relative to your opinion on "ball groups" but not important to what I stated.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

I made bold the sentence where she clearly states that none of these had a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience.

Further, the new server hardware improvement brings a relative improvement to everything. It does not pick and choose. So it is inaccurate to suggest I am glossing over anything. I do not find in her comment concerning the test results stated that the tests proved ball groups severely strain the servers. Please provide the

Respectfully,
Amo

As you can see in the quote you used here, the tests (which specifically targeted group size, out of group healing, and the frequency you could use AOE heals at) provided a 25% reduction in server frame spikes, which is the zenimax term for instances where the game has skill delay.. This is a massive reduction - but at the time, it did not matter because the core issue then was the server hardware being out of date. A 25% reduction in lag spikes was not enough for them to justify the sweeping changes they were considering. However, this again was on old server hardware. Since we are on new server hardware now and the only time we see skill delay is in the presence of "ball groups", we can ascertain that the core issue is now the "ball group behaviors" which these tests proved have a strong negative affect on performance.

The easiest way to target that behavior is to begin with the nerfing of heal stacking, as it will signifcantly reduce the calculations being caused by these groups.

All of this is of course without even considering the balance side of things, because anyone defending the ability to have 5 RRs and 5 EVs on every single person in a 12 man group clearly does not have a good understanding of balance.

They did 8 tests in total including one that both increased the cost of AoE skills while reducing regen with each use of an AoE skill to the cap. This clearly would have an impact on heal stacking though the degree is obviously something we do not know. I certainly woujdl reduce the use of AoE skill which is prett much going to be the bread and butter of what some people seem to call ball groups.

Since Zenimax did add more tests to their original plan, which included the test I reference above, it stands to reason that they did not see the need to test heal stacking itself. Regardless, it is an assumption that nerfing heal stacking would significantly improve server performance. Neither of us has the actual data to know.

To be specific they added a 3s cooldown to every AOE skill and ramped the costs.

neferpitou73

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Balls don't kill people for AP (at least not entirely) they do it mostly for the fight.

If it isn't against players on your own competitive level, then it's not much of a fight, just a power fantasy that plays out more like PvE than PvP. Maybe ask yourself why so many competitive groups avoid fighting other competitive groups. All I keep hearing in zone from my faction's ball group players is how they get "bored" fighting the other faction's ball group.

Or you could stop making assumptions about how other people play. My group almost always seeks out fights with other ball groups because we like the challenge. When we can't get that fighting 3-4x our number is a good enough challenge (and it is a challenge, despite how it looks from the outside).

xylena_lazarow

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Or you could stop making assumptions about how other people play. My group almost always seeks out fights with other ball groups because we like the challenge. When we can't get that fighting 3-4x our number is a good enough challenge (and it is a challenge, despite how it looks from the outside).

I'm speaking to player behaviors that I observe on PC/NA/GH, not passing judgment on any specific player or group. I see these behaviors from mid to high tier groups, small to large scale. Please do not take it personally. I'd also suggest trying the other end of the fight: be one of the randoms trying to fight an optimized heal-stacked ball group that's intent on "surviving indefinitely" and realize how pathetically limited your options are. You'll see why we're still having these threads.

Amottica

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

React wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@neferpitou73 you are talking about organizing, roles etc, but why do you dodging the main point of this thread - organized group has Vigor + Radiant Regeneration stacks, which doesn't require you to fit any role, you spam it regardless of your role.

Vigor heals 3 times less than resolving vigor. Given 12man group, it means you get 4 resolving vigors running all the time just from ONE skill. FOUR. RESOLVING. VIGORS. And I didn't count radiant regens in. How is this fair?

Because I don't think it's an issue. My group only runs Vigor/RR on our healers and we still stomp zergs. It's the group coordination and division of labor that allows ball groups to survive. If I'm on a DD I don't have to worry about keeping myself alive and can just run into groups relying on my talented healers to keep me alive. Likewise my healers can rely on the DDs to just kill everything so they can focus on keeping things alive.

I'm just saying, you guys have had two ball group leads come into this thread to tell you they don't think the heal stacks are the issue but have provided several other reasons why they think groups are dominating/overtuned. And we spend hours theorycrafting these comps so we know what we're talking about. Perhaps we should tackle these things before we mess with healing, which will affect literally every part of the game?

I don't know why everyone in this thread glazes over the fact that the ball groups are by far, the largest negative impact on performance that exists. Zenimax themselves acknowledged this back at the beginning of their year of performance testing, and said that the reason they have such a negative impact on server performance is because of the spamming of abilities and the constant calculations related to those abilities.

It is so obvious that having 5 RRs and 5 vigors on you should not exist in the game, and even more obvious that removing the ability to do this will be the easiest way to massively reduce the calculations your "coordinated groups" cause. As the ball group players themselves have said "we'll adapt". So what is the issue with removing this function?

And yet when they did test to see if those abilities were the problem they saw no improvement in performance. And mysteriously when they actually fixed their servers there was no lag even at prime time with several ball groups on the server.

Technically Zenimax did see improvement served side when they did those Cyrodiil tests, though they did not get into specifics about which tests showed improvement.

The main takeaway Zenimax provided is that none of the testing showed any meaningful improvements. So you are correct to note that the testing debunked the theory that stacking of hots does not create that much stress on the server compared to anything else based on actual testing and data received by Zenimax looking into this.

This is untrue. Zenimax cited ball groups as the number one contributor to the heavy calculations that strained the servers, and following the tests they did confirm that they saw a noticeable reduction in strain on the servers during their tests specifically targeting these groups.

What you're glossing over is that the tests were done on the old server hardware, which we now know was the most major part of the issue. Since PC NA has had its hardware replaced, we have seen what I would call a near 80-90% recovery in server performance in cyrodiil - the only time the game lags or becomes "unplayable" is when there are several ball groups present and spamming heals.

The tests did prove that ball groups severely strain the servers, and the PC NA hardware replacement has shown us that ball groups might be the only remaining thing holding us back from "around the clock" near perfect performance in cyrodiil.

@React

I respect you have an opinion about "ball groups". However, my comment was not professing my opinion but merely recanted what Zenimax stated concerning the test results. I am providing a quote from Gina which demonstrates without question that my statement you quoted is 100% factually correct and in context. A number of the tests were designed to diminish the effectiveness of groups using AoEs making it relative to your opinion on "ball groups" but not important to what I stated.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

I made bold the sentence where she clearly states that none of these had a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience.

Further, the new server hardware improvement brings a relative improvement to everything. It does not pick and choose. So it is inaccurate to suggest I am glossing over anything. I do not find in her comment concerning the test results stated that the tests proved ball groups severely strain the servers. Please provide the

Respectfully,
Amo

As you can see in the quote you used here, the tests (which specifically targeted group size, out of group healing, and the frequency you could use AOE heals at) provided a 25% reduction in server frame spikes, which is the zenimax term for instances where the game has skill delay.. This is a massive reduction - but at the time, it did not matter because the core issue then was the server hardware being out of date. A 25% reduction in lag spikes was not enough for them to justify the sweeping changes they were considering. However, this again was on old server hardware. Since we are on new server hardware now and the only time we see skill delay is in the presence of "ball groups", we can ascertain that the core issue is now the "ball group behaviors" which these tests proved have a strong negative affect on performance.

The easiest way to target that behavior is to begin with the nerfing of heal stacking, as it will signifcantly reduce the calculations being caused by these groups.

All of this is of course without even considering the balance side of things, because anyone defending the ability to have 5 RRs and 5 EVs on every single person in a 12 man group clearly does not have a good understanding of balance.

They did 8 tests in total including one that both increased the cost of AoE skills while reducing regen with each use of an AoE skill to the cap. This clearly would have an impact on heal stacking though the degree is obviously something we do not know. I certainly woujdl reduce the use of AoE skill which is prett much going to be the bread and butter of what some people seem to call ball groups.

Since Zenimax did add more tests to their original plan, which included the test I reference above, it stands to reason that they did not see the need to test heal stacking itself. Regardless, it is an assumption that nerfing heal stacking would significantly improve server performance. Neither of us has the actual data to know.

To be specific they added a 3s cooldown to every AOE skill and ramped the costs.

This was just one of the 8 tests. The one I noted in what I quoted was significantly more involved than the 3s CD test and much more punitive on AoE usage as well.

I believe I linked the thread explaining all the tests somewhere in this thread if you care to review it.

neferpitou73

Amottica wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

React wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

React wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@neferpitou73 you are talking about organizing, roles etc, but why do you dodging the main point of this thread - organized group has Vigor + Radiant Regeneration stacks, which doesn't require you to fit any role, you spam it regardless of your role.

Vigor heals 3 times less than resolving vigor. Given 12man group, it means you get 4 resolving vigors running all the time just from ONE skill. FOUR. RESOLVING. VIGORS. And I didn't count radiant regens in. How is this fair?

Because I don't think it's an issue. My group only runs Vigor/RR on our healers and we still stomp zergs. It's the group coordination and division of labor that allows ball groups to survive. If I'm on a DD I don't have to worry about keeping myself alive and can just run into groups relying on my talented healers to keep me alive. Likewise my healers can rely on the DDs to just kill everything so they can focus on keeping things alive.

I'm just saying, you guys have had two ball group leads come into this thread to tell you they don't think the heal stacks are the issue but have provided several other reasons why they think groups are dominating/overtuned. And we spend hours theorycrafting these comps so we know what we're talking about. Perhaps we should tackle these things before we mess with healing, which will affect literally every part of the game?

I don't know why everyone in this thread glazes over the fact that the ball groups are by far, the largest negative impact on performance that exists. Zenimax themselves acknowledged this back at the beginning of their year of performance testing, and said that the reason they have such a negative impact on server performance is because of the spamming of abilities and the constant calculations related to those abilities.

It is so obvious that having 5 RRs and 5 vigors on you should not exist in the game, and even more obvious that removing the ability to do this will be the easiest way to massively reduce the calculations your "coordinated groups" cause. As the ball group players themselves have said "we'll adapt". So what is the issue with removing this function?

And yet when they did test to see if those abilities were the problem they saw no improvement in performance. And mysteriously when they actually fixed their servers there was no lag even at prime time with several ball groups on the server.

Technically Zenimax did see improvement served side when they did those Cyrodiil tests, though they did not get into specifics about which tests showed improvement.

The main takeaway Zenimax provided is that none of the testing showed any meaningful improvements. So you are correct to note that the testing debunked the theory that stacking of hots does not create that much stress on the server compared to anything else based on actual testing and data received by Zenimax looking into this.

This is untrue. Zenimax cited ball groups as the number one contributor to the heavy calculations that strained the servers, and following the tests they did confirm that they saw a noticeable reduction in strain on the servers during their tests specifically targeting these groups.

What you're glossing over is that the tests were done on the old server hardware, which we now know was the most major part of the issue. Since PC NA has had its hardware replaced, we have seen what I would call a near 80-90% recovery in server performance in cyrodiil - the only time the game lags or becomes "unplayable" is when there are several ball groups present and spamming heals.

The tests did prove that ball groups severely strain the servers, and the PC NA hardware replacement has shown us that ball groups might be the only remaining thing holding us back from "around the clock" near perfect performance in cyrodiil.

@React

I respect you have an opinion about "ball groups". However, my comment was not professing my opinion but merely recanted what Zenimax stated concerning the test results. I am providing a quote from Gina which demonstrates without question that my statement you quoted is 100% factually correct and in context. A number of the tests were designed to diminish the effectiveness of groups using AoEs making it relative to your opinion on "ball groups" but not important to what I stated.

In reviewing the data for all the different tests, we did see some marked improvements in performance – on average, there was approximately a 25% reduction in the magnitude of server frame spikes and a slight reduction in the frequency of those spikes. While these improvements look good on a spreadsheet, they do not have a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience. As a result, we will not be making any major changes at this time.

I made bold the sentence where she clearly states that none of these had a significant enough impact on improving the overall player experience.

Further, the new server hardware improvement brings a relative improvement to everything. It does not pick and choose. So it is inaccurate to suggest I am glossing over anything. I do not find in her comment concerning the test results stated that the tests proved ball groups severely strain the servers. Please provide the

Respectfully,
Amo

As you can see in the quote you used here, the tests (which specifically targeted group size, out of group healing, and the frequency you could use AOE heals at) provided a 25% reduction in server frame spikes, which is the zenimax term for instances where the game has skill delay.. This is a massive reduction - but at the time, it did not matter because the core issue then was the server hardware being out of date. A 25% reduction in lag spikes was not enough for them to justify the sweeping changes they were considering. However, this again was on old server hardware. Since we are on new server hardware now and the only time we see skill delay is in the presence of "ball groups", we can ascertain that the core issue is now the "ball group behaviors" which these tests proved have a strong negative affect on performance.

The easiest way to target that behavior is to begin with the nerfing of heal stacking, as it will signifcantly reduce the calculations being caused by these groups.

All of this is of course without even considering the balance side of things, because anyone defending the ability to have 5 RRs and 5 EVs on every single person in a 12 man group clearly does not have a good understanding of balance.

They did 8 tests in total including one that both increased the cost of AoE skills while reducing regen with each use of an AoE skill to the cap. This clearly would have an impact on heal stacking though the degree is obviously something we do not know. I certainly woujdl reduce the use of AoE skill which is prett much going to be the bread and butter of what some people seem to call ball groups.

Since Zenimax did add more tests to their original plan, which included the test I reference above, it stands to reason that they did not see the need to test heal stacking itself. Regardless, it is an assumption that nerfing heal stacking would significantly improve server performance. Neither of us has the actual data to know.

To be specific they added a 3s cooldown to every AOE skill and ramped the costs.

This was just one of the 8 tests. The one I noted in what I quoted was significantly more involved than the 3s CD test and much more punitive on AoE usage as well.

I believe I linked the thread explaining all the tests somewhere in this thread if you care to review it.

I was agreeing with you and highlighting the specific tests that would deal with heal stacks : )

NotTaylorSwift

Typical forum post asking for things to be as easy as possible. The devs should delete the whole pvp section of the forum.

Thraben

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

Not only Rapid Regen, but every HoT in the game. The OP's suggestion alone would only lead to more elaborate allocation of different HoT morphs, like we did with Vigor 6 years ago.

I prefer a Major/Minor Regeneration system.

HoTs are bad for game balance when they can be combined in a way that they can replace the more skillful burst healing.

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

Thraben wrote: »

Not only Rapid Regen, but every HoT in the game. The OP's suggestion alone would only lead to more elaborate allocation of different HoT morphs, like we did with Vigor 6 years ago.

I prefer a Major/Minor Regeneration system.

HoTs are bad for game balance when they can be combined in a way that they can replace the more skillful burst healing.

If this system is implemented why would groups bring more than 1 healer. Just someone to apply the major/minor regen and then full DD tanks to just kill everyone before they die.
The complaint would then be that groups are too tanky and the cycle continues.

divnyi

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

Not only Rapid Regen, but every HoT in the game. The OP's suggestion alone would only lead to more elaborate allocation of different HoT morphs, like we did with Vigor 6 years ago.

I prefer a Major/Minor Regeneration system.

HoTs are bad for game balance when they can be combined in a way that they can replace the more skillful burst healing.

If this system is implemented why would groups bring more than 1 healer.

Burst heals.

Thraben

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Thraben wrote: »

Not only Rapid Regen, but every HoT in the game. The OP's suggestion alone would only lead to more elaborate allocation of different HoT morphs, like we did with Vigor 6 years ago.

I prefer a Major/Minor Regeneration system.

HoTs are bad for game balance when they can be combined in a way that they can replace the more skillful burst healing.

If this system is implemented why would groups bring more than 1 healer. Just someone to apply the major/minor regen and then full DD tanks to just kill everyone before they die.
The complaint would then be that groups are too tanky and the cycle continues.

You need at least two healers; one main and one off-healer: Both MagTemplar and MagBlade are vulnerable to Negates, so when you get caught in a bad Negate it's up to the Stamwardens to safe the day. Many groups have even more than 2: One MagBlade Soul Syphon for Emergency, a Templar for the normal case, and if both fail, the Wardens do some off-healing.

Of course, you could train your wardens so that all three of them are off-healer/DD hybrids, so that you don't need a main "healer", but even the best groups don't have 3-4 Wardens of that quality at their disposal. Most ballgroup wardens don't even manage to do basic stuff like the reverse healing manoevre.


edit: Of course I'm speaking of No Proc Cyro. Proc Cyro is a lost case anyways.

DrSlaughtr

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

doesurmindglow wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you eliminated HOT stacking so the healer can only apply one tick of each HOT per ally, they will be forced to use other healing skills and likely run at least one healing set. This means they have less sustain and less survivability. Thus, the ball group itself is easier to kill because smart players can target the healers.

Everyone saw HOT meta coming the moment purge was taken off the table. I can't see any other way for a ball group to spec their healers.

There's a lot wrong here (healers in ball groups do, in fact, run healing sets for example), but the biggest problem is just because you in particular cannot see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It'll depend highly on how you do it: if you make it so the same abilities don't stack multiple times, they'll easily diversify the abilities being used. If you make it so any HOT cannot stack, they'll invest more in direct heals and develop good uptimes on those.

And if you even made it so you can't heal anyone but yourself, which is a really stupid version of the idea that wouldn't even survive a whole patch if realized, they'll move toward damage shields and group optimization of sustain that makes possible previously inaccessible uptimes on self-heals on everyone including damage dealers.

It's hard to say for sure what the response will be because there's not actually much clarity on how this would be done, but what I do know for sure is it'll ultimately have no effect the same way nerfing purge had no effect.

It's just a solution far too simple and narrow to a problem much more complicated and broad.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

But the problem with what I'm seeing above is that you can't not adjust something that is clearly an issue because there may be some unintended consequence. That's the nature of the game. if we had that mindset, ZOS would never change anything. Also I put forward that PB did make ballgroups weaker. Not because of the damage proc but because they did rely heavily on purge. I'm confidence that if HOT stacking was eliminated, the playing field would be a little more even.

I'm not saying you can't change anything. I think there's a lot of things you can change. I've even put forward changes that I think would work better in previous posts. I just don't think limited, narrow changes targeting one set or one ability or even one class of abilities are effective and because their scope is too narrow, they actually have the opposite effect.

But more than that, I guess I just don't see why this time it will magically work when last time, and the time before that, and the time before that, and also, the time before that, it didn't. Like the idea THIS silver bullet is the right one comes on the heels of a great many silver bullets that had no real effect other than to make PVP more imbalanced for the people we imagine we're trying to help.

It ultimately doesn't really matter to me personally either way. All the groups I run have been buffed by every one of these changes and I know ball groups will easily adapt to a world without HOT stacking no problem just as they adapted to a world without purge no problem. But I don't think it's healthy for the game to keep stacking up successive "you are penalized for having allies" mechanics as a general rule as it systematically and increasingly disadvantages newer or more casual players who otherwise might have a chance to make up what they lack in organization and experience by bringing larger numbers. It creates a toxic environment where you are actively discouraged from cooperating with other people on your team, or from working together to achieve shared objectives.

But that's it for me on this subject, I'm sure my advice will again be ignored just as it was ignored before they eliminated purge, because this change, no matter what anyone says, is the change that will work where all previous changes did not. We refuse to learn from any of those previous mistakes so we are committed to repeating them, and can never be convinced to try something new and potentially more effective instead.

Okay, first off, what do you consider a healing set? Because every ball group I know it's specking their healers over 30k health at armor cap. Sets that used to be mandatory on ball healers will now get you laughed out the group. A healer no longer needs to have a large mag pool because resto heavies and recovery are enough to fuel the two skills they spam.

You yourself just stated what I said. If you couldn't stack RR and vigor on every player multiple times, the healer would need to run additional hots plus group burst heals. This means they would need bigger Magicka pools which means light armor which means less tankiness. One of the old ways to kill a ball group would be to target healers with NBs while the rest push the group with negates. That doesn't work anymore because healers are tanks and they just leave the negate.

Their survivability and sustain is the issue.

MasterSpatula

Not sure what the solution is, but I know targeting a flaw in basic game design by making or updating sets which will immediately be used in ways the devs never intended to do things that should never have been allowed anywhere near the live game ain't it.

ZOS needs to learn the lesson that people always looking for ways to game the system are better at figuring out new ways to game the system than people trying to stop them are.

neferpitou73

TheEndBringer wrote: »

doesurmindglow wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

If you eliminated HOT stacking so the healer can only apply one tick of each HOT per ally, they will be forced to use other healing skills and likely run at least one healing set. This means they have less sustain and less survivability. Thus, the ball group itself is easier to kill because smart players can target the healers.

Everyone saw HOT meta coming the moment purge was taken off the table. I can't see any other way for a ball group to spec their healers.

There's a lot wrong here (healers in ball groups do, in fact, run healing sets for example), but the biggest problem is just because you in particular cannot see it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

It'll depend highly on how you do it: if you make it so the same abilities don't stack multiple times, they'll easily diversify the abilities being used. If you make it so any HOT cannot stack, they'll invest more in direct heals and develop good uptimes on those.

And if you even made it so you can't heal anyone but yourself, which is a really stupid version of the idea that wouldn't even survive a whole patch if realized, they'll move toward damage shields and group optimization of sustain that makes possible previously inaccessible uptimes on self-heals on everyone including damage dealers.

It's hard to say for sure what the response will be because there's not actually much clarity on how this would be done, but what I do know for sure is it'll ultimately have no effect the same way nerfing purge had no effect.

It's just a solution far too simple and narrow to a problem much more complicated and broad.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

But the problem with what I'm seeing above is that you can't not adjust something that is clearly an issue because there may be some unintended consequence. That's the nature of the game. if we had that mindset, ZOS would never change anything. Also I put forward that PB did make ballgroups weaker. Not because of the damage proc but because they did rely heavily on purge. I'm confidence that if HOT stacking was eliminated, the playing field would be a little more even.

I'm not saying you can't change anything. I think there's a lot of things you can change. I've even put forward changes that I think would work better in previous posts. I just don't think limited, narrow changes targeting one set or one ability or even one class of abilities are effective and because their scope is too narrow, they actually have the opposite effect.

But more than that, I guess I just don't see why this time it will magically work when last time, and the time before that, and the time before that, and also, the time before that, it didn't. Like the idea THIS silver bullet is the right one comes on the heels of a great many silver bullets that had no real effect other than to make PVP more imbalanced for the people we imagine we're trying to help.

It ultimately doesn't really matter to me personally either way. All the groups I run have been buffed by every one of these changes and I know ball groups will easily adapt to a world without HOT stacking no problem just as they adapted to a world without purge no problem. But I don't think it's healthy for the game to keep stacking up successive "you are penalized for having allies" mechanics as a general rule as it systematically and increasingly disadvantages newer or more casual players who otherwise might have a chance to make up what they lack in organization and experience by bringing larger numbers. It creates a toxic environment where you are actively discouraged from cooperating with other people on your team, or from working together to achieve shared objectives.

But that's it for me on this subject, I'm sure my advice will again be ignored just as it was ignored before they eliminated purge, because this change, no matter what anyone says, is the change that will work where all previous changes did not. We refuse to learn from any of those previous mistakes so we are committed to repeating them, and can never be convinced to try something new and potentially more effective instead.

Okay, first off, what do you consider a healing set? Because every ball group I know it's specking their healers over 30k health at armor cap. Sets that used to be mandatory on ball healers will now get you laughed out the group. A healer no longer needs to have a large mag pool because resto heavies and recovery are enough to fuel the two skills they spam.

You yourself just stated what I said. If you couldn't stack RR and vigor on every player multiple times, the healer would need to run additional hots plus group burst heals. This means they would need bigger Magicka pools which means light armor which means less tankiness. One of the old ways to kill a ball group would be to target healers with NBs while the rest push the group with negates. That doesn't work anymore because healers are tanks and they just leave the negate.

Their survivability and sustain is the issue.

What are you basing this on? Which groups? Our healing set comp has only changed by making room for other sets they added. Although all groups take different approaches.

Durham

First of all, speed is a problem right now. Players are moving too fast in PVP.

Ball groups should have a speed nerf. They avoid damage more from speed than from anything else. But a group of 12 moving at max speed is broke! You cant hit them with siege because they are just too fast. Ball groups get all the benefits from group passives; speed should not be one of them. Siege should hit groups harder. If you take the speed away you will force them to spread.

Durham

pleximus wrote: »

As opposed to groups just los and bombing pugs every 10 seconds?

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable. [/quote]

People in ball groups are selfish. They don't care that they're destroying the server performance and gameplay of others (who have ALSO paid for the game).[/quote]

/agree
also ball group people are not playing they are just bots following the orders of 1 guy. If you could add a 3rd party macro the other 11 players are not needed lol.

neferpitou73

Durham wrote: »

pleximus wrote: »

As opposed to groups just los and bombing pugs every 10 seconds?

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable.

People in ball groups are selfish. They don't care that they're destroying the server performance and gameplay of others (who have ALSO paid for the game).[/quote]

/agree
also ball group people are not playing they are just bots following the orders of 1 guy. If you could add a 3rd party macro the other 11 players are not needed lol. [/quote]

Have you ever played in a ball group? That's really insulting.