Is it time to deal with HOT stacking or rework anti-ball group sets?

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO

ShadowProc wrote: »

Izanagi.Xiiib16_ESO wrote: »

Ahk1lleez wrote: »

Proposed set and ability changes:

Plaguebreak: Detonates upon expiration. The damage from this set is reduced by 1.5% per group member.

So you want a solo player in plaguebreak to be able to aoe bomb everyone on a flag from range every 10 seconds?

I think players in general really need to consider what they ask for more carefully. Lets say you finally get rid of stacking heals. Whats next when you still cant kill the group, more proc sets, siege buffs. is 1 button one-shot cyrodiil really what is desired? whoever sees each other first gets the kill.

Lets look at the main reasons groups are especially strong currently:
1) Cyrodiil population size, gone are the 24m groups and the multiple guilds which used to be of some counter. In general unless a small group of players who know how to actually kill groups are present (normally those who play in groups and actually know their weaknesses) there are no longer enough pugs in cyro to make a real impact in most cases.

2) Group tools which used to aide those who weren't as strong such as purge, root and snare removal (rapid spam) have all been nerfed or removed completely making it harder for those who used to be able to achieve some success in larger number play because they were carried by 3-4 players in the group. This didn't impact the groups who were already used to 12m play because they weren't carrying as many players and so had to adapt less.

3) There are so many buffs and group buff sets players can basically invest everything into health and still deal huge damage in bursts. So basically you have enough health to survive not being burst but can still burst others. Include onto this all the proc sets which now stack and burn through players with ease. Synergy damage which scales on the person using the synergy allowing for supports to boost DD's output by huge amounts without the dd sacrificing much.

Healing is sure part of 3 but it's only really 1 small aspect of it.

As opposed to groups just los and bombing pugs every 10 seconds?

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable.

Drac hasn't run since October last year but maybe some time we will with the server changes
In any event as you say, it's very common for groups to proxy up and push back on pugs to bomb them. You'd think after all the years of groups doing it pugs might learn 'oh look there's large red circles that's just gone up around everyone, maybe lets get out the way'.
Compare this to Plaguebreak (especially if the suggestions here were implemented) which is just 1 small green effect amongst all the clutter of effects. Can be applied infinitely from range, no cast time, no aoe indicator.

Yes I think there's a difference.

@pleximus as for groups being 'selfish'. The server update proved that it wasn't groups causing performance issues, it was the servers being older than time. (who could have guessed eh..) It's always going to stress the servers to have more players in 1 area compared to being spread out but this is also a core feature of this style of game design so ZOS would need to simply put some changes in to encourage this. Playing with friends against enemies isn't 'selfish' its normal. Just because some groups perform a lot better than their enemies and so have 'wins' more often it doesn't mean they must stop playing.

Nemeliom

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

I don't care if you want to play with a 20 players group and run around bombing everyone.
I just don't think it's fair to have 5 ticks of the same HoT stacked on your group, spamming it like there is no tomorrow.

And if they keep that, then let us stack offensive dots as well. Let every player with plaguebreak stack a DoT on you. And when you die, let the explosion of each player hit as well, instead of just 1.
That would be fair.

I honestly prefer having HoTs reworked. Just 1 HoT of a type per player.

divnyi

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

HoT stacking needs to be nerfed ofc, both ground and sticky.

Should organized group have advantage? Ofc it should. And it has. They can stack AoE buffs like nobody else, have defined roles etc.

Should organized group heal for so much that no DPS can do anything, and you need to coordinate burst ultis in 1-2s frame to be able to kill? No, HoT should be considerably lower, damage should always matter, it should be higher than HoT. Because doing damage is less cost-effective than HoT. If you want to outheal damage like nothing happened, you need to use burst heals that cost more than damage.

This is not only large group thing btw.

xDeusEJRx

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

No more hot stacking, zergs share damage but no sharing infinite cross healing. You just can't kill anything that way. It's pretty much impossible to kill a zerg with huge numbers anyways, cross heals just make zergs untouchable no matter what skill is employed in a fight.
If I completely outplay a player, they just run off back to their zerg to get free radiating regens back to full hp. Most of these zerg players are zerg surfing anyways, not even grouped up and getting free regens from following random zergs.

Nerf cross healing please

Dem_kitkats1

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

karekiz wrote: »

Why punish good players for synergizing with each other instead of zerging around?

Because there are no counters to it. When there are no counters to something it means the game isn't balance. Yes, organized group play will always have an advantage, but other groups should still have ways to counter you or at least make you work a little harder. Players can't CC ball groups, can't break through the infinite healing and mitigation that gear easily provides them, and siege hasn't been adjusted to the current environment. So how is that balanced? Counter play should be more than players having move out of the way so they don’t get snagged into the rolling speed ball. Do you really want gameplay to be only ball groups stalling eachother out because that's the only viable way to play?

neferpitou73

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Why punish good players for synergizing with each other instead of zerging around?

Because there are no counters to it. When there are no counters to something it means the game isn't balance. Yes, organized group play will always have an advantage, but other groups should still have ways to counter you or at least make you work a little harder. Players can't CC ball groups, can't break through the infinite healing and mitigation that gear easily provides them, and siege hasn't been adjusted to the current environment. So how is that balanced? Counter play should be more than players having move out of the way so they don’t get snagged into the rolling speed ball. Do you really want gameplay to be only ball groups stalling eachother out because that's the only viable way to play?

There is a counter to it as you point out tho: Make your own group. Cyrodiil is the large scale PvP mode of this game. It's meant for groups. If you're expecting a solo player, or even a group of randoms to wipe a group that has optimized itself to kill large groups of players than you're going to be disappointed.

Instead of all this talk of nerfing things I wish they would just add ways for small scale groups to have more impact on the map.

HonestLoverr

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Why punish good players for synergizing with each other instead of zerging around?

Because there are no counters to it. When there are no counters to something it means the game isn't balance. Yes, organized group play will always have an advantage, but other groups should still have ways to counter you or at least make you work a little harder. Players can't CC ball groups, can't break through the infinite healing and mitigation that gear easily provides them, and siege hasn't been adjusted to the current environment. So how is that balanced? Counter play should be more than players having move out of the way so they don’t get snagged into the rolling speed ball. Do you really want gameplay to be only ball groups stalling eachother out because that's the only viable way to play?

There is a counter to it as you point out tho: Make your own group. Cyrodiil is the large scale PvP mode of this game. It's meant for groups. If you're expecting a solo player, or even a group of randoms to wipe a group that has optimized itself to kill large groups of players than you're going to be disappointed.

Instead of all this talk of nerfing things I wish they would just add ways for small scale groups to have more impact on the map.

I don't care about the map or points, I care about good fights. Running around with a group at literally unstoppable fullspeed aoe oneshotting everyone is not fighting. Its avoiding fights. Nice large scale brawls, where every class brings something to the table for a timed ulti dump like the good old ESO days. Where no necro bombers with sets like dc and pb rule the show. And where making a PvP tank to CC the people makes sense again. Then I would take part in organized group play again too.

Seriously, you catch more bombs in this medieval fantasy game with swords and magic than in a modern warfare shooter with rocket launchers. Its just silly man.

xDeusEJRx

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

HonestLoverr wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

karekiz wrote: »

Why punish good players for synergizing with each other instead of zerging around?

Because there are no counters to it. When there are no counters to something it means the game isn't balance. Yes, organized group play will always have an advantage, but other groups should still have ways to counter you or at least make you work a little harder. Players can't CC ball groups, can't break through the infinite healing and mitigation that gear easily provides them, and siege hasn't been adjusted to the current environment. So how is that balanced? Counter play should be more than players having move out of the way so they don’t get snagged into the rolling speed ball. Do you really want gameplay to be only ball groups stalling eachother out because that's the only viable way to play?

There is a counter to it as you point out tho: Make your own group. Cyrodiil is the large scale PvP mode of this game. It's meant for groups. If you're expecting a solo player, or even a group of randoms to wipe a group that has optimized itself to kill large groups of players than you're going to be disappointed.

Instead of all this talk of nerfing things I wish they would just add ways for small scale groups to have more impact on the map.

Running around with a group at literally unstoppable fullspeed aoe oneshotting everyone is not fighting. Its avoiding fights. Nice large scale brawls, where every class brings something to the table for a timed ulti dump like the good old ESO days. Where no necro bombers with sets like dc and pb rule the show.

Seriously, you catch more bombs in this medieval fantasy game with swords and magic than in a modern warfare shooter with rocket launchers. Its just silly man.

Is this not literally what any uncoordinated normal zerg does anyway. Normal zergs with no coordination just run 20-40+ deep and run over everyone in their path not giving them a chance to even do anything because you just can't take on a group that big without a group of the same size without using bombers. Nice large scale brawls just aren't a feasible thing anymore when procs rule the game now, dark convergence or plaguebreak or not when pvp is mostly based around trying to hinder your opponent using cheesy procs you don't get good fights and zerg play already severely makes it impossible to get a good fight. Since most of zerg play is just mob mentality and running people over like train.

It used to be the case before procs (and hammer being added)became so rampant, but it's just non-existent now, Every large scale fight is just won by who has larger numbers and can outproc the other

MEBengalsFan2001

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

Ahk1lleez wrote: »

HOT stacking is out of hand since hybridization. I can understand the apprehension from the developers side of making specific HOTs not stack but something has to be done here.

I think more needs to be done to improve PVP in general. For instance there are times where I am tanky and can have 3+ players chasing me around a keep and other times I get killed by two hits. The times I'm killed by two hits blow my mind as it usually happens when I'm blocking and that is with 30K+ resistance, flare for another 10% damage reduction and I have the staff that provides another 3% damage reduction against players.

The other thing is gear sets should not and I repeat should be how groups are managed in this game. I believe our selected role should impact how things are work in PVP; for instance if you are not a tank you get 50% of your resistance value. If you are not a DPS you get 50% of your damage value. If you are not a healer you get 50% less healing out. These are in addition to the current battle spirit buffs we have.

A player now using Pariah and hoping they are god and playing as a DPS will only get 50% of their resistance making that 35k+ resistance much more useless in PVP and healers thinking that they can stand there and tank and heal well your resistance is also lower making you a bit more squishy as well. And tanks can't super heal any more because now you get 50% so roughly a quarter of what you get in PVE, making tanks mostly useful to absorb damage.

The other thing is now tanks and healers can't flip the tide by popping a potion and now having OP damage as well as strong heals.

Roles should matter and make an impact on PVP.

These minor changes would really lower how powerful ball groups are ATM because the DPS heals that we now see will be less and tanks in ball groups will now have to rely on healers more etc...

Or another option is to put hard caps in PVP for base stats on roles. For instance tanks and healers damage numbers can't get higher than 3K unbuffed. DPS can't get higher than 20K resistance unbuffed, etc... I would still make it so non-healers have even less healing in PVP.

HonestLoverr

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

MEBengalsFan2001 wrote: »

Ahk1lleez wrote: »

HOT stacking is out of hand since hybridization. I can understand the apprehension from the developers side of making specific HOTs not stack but something has to be done here.

I think more needs to be done to improve PVP in general. For instance there are times where I am tanky and can have 3+ players chasing me around a keep and other times I get killed by two hits. The times I'm killed by two hits blow my mind as it usually happens when I'm blocking and that is with 30K+ resistance, flare for another 10% damage reduction and I have the staff that provides another 3% damage reduction against players.

The other thing is gear sets should not and I repeat should be how groups are managed in this game. I believe our selected role should impact how things are work in PVP; for instance if you are not a tank you get 50% of your resistance value. If you are not a DPS you get 50% of your damage value. If you are not a healer you get 50% less healing out. These are in addition to the current battle spirit buffs we have.

A player now using Pariah and hoping they are god and playing as a DPS will only get 50% of their resistance making that 35k+ resistance much more useless in PVP and healers thinking that they can stand there and tank and heal well your resistance is also lower making you a bit more squishy as well. And tanks can't super heal any more because now you get 50% so roughly a quarter of what you get in PVE, making tanks mostly useful to absorb damage.

The other thing is now tanks and healers can't flip the tide by popping a potion and now having OP damage as well as strong heals.

Roles should matter and make an impact on PVP.

These minor changes would really lower how powerful ball groups are ATM because the DPS heals that we now see will be less and tanks in ball groups will now have to rely on healers more etc...

Or another option is to put hard caps in PVP for base stats on roles. For instance tanks and healers damage numbers can't get higher than 3K unbuffed. DPS can't get higher than 20K resistance unbuffed, etc... I would still make it so non-healers have even less healing in PVP.

This. So much this. The best idea I heard of in a long time for balancing. Making roles actually mean something. I would add some things to this though:


If you add 50% damage to dps role, make bonus damage also apply to siege, but cut CC durations for applied CC in half.

If you add 50% resistances to tank role, make them also ignore every CC immunity when applying any form of CC

If you add 50% healing to healer role, make a healer role specced player overwrite any heals of non-healer role players and increase buff durations granted from the healer role by 50%. Double CC durations applied on healers.


These would definitely be the most interesting changes. If only devs would care to have a look into what their community suggests on their forums, not to mention going for anything suggested in here...

Vaoh

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

React wrote: »

.....The stacking of same morph heals is the easiest low-hanging fruit to adjust, and it is ridiculous that we're now going to have to wait a minimum of four more months for this to be addressed since our chapter releases tomorrow.

You’ll be lucky if you get a reply this year. Adjustments take at least a year after that.

Amottica

pleximus wrote: »

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable.

The thing is, a well-organized group will always be superior when facing a group of pugs. They are organized and as a group better prepared. They are also likely on comms which provides even more advantage.

This is and should be the case in Cyrodiil and BGs. It is also what should be expected.

Ragnaroek93

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

Crosshealing is completely out of control and needs to be fixed. Anti ballgroup sets never worked properly and would just be a bandaid fix. Last time we got Dark Convergence and instead of countering ballgroups it made up for a totally miserable experience for everybody.

HonestLoverr

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

Amottica wrote: »

pleximus wrote: »

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable.

The thing is, a well-organized group will always be superior when facing a group of pugs. They are organized and as a group better prepared. They are also likely on comms which provides even more advantage.

This is and should be the case in Cyrodiil and BGs. It is also what should be expected.

Nearly godmode and oneshotting people at once is definitely something I would call superior too. But should this be the case? No way. This is not some tiny advantage we are talking about. The heal and kill potential of organized groups while literally immune to any kind of CC + movement speed buffs is absolutely broken as hell and needs to be fixed without nerfing everyone outside those groups too much again like it happened several times in the past when ZOS was going for a change.

neferpitou73

HonestLoverr wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

pleximus wrote: »

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable.

The thing is, a well-organized group will always be superior when facing a group of pugs. They are organized and as a group better prepared. They are also likely on comms which provides even more advantage.

This is and should be the case in Cyrodiil and BGs. It is also what should be expected.

Nearly godmode and oneshotting people at once is definitely something I would call superior too. But should this be the case? No way. This is not some tiny advantage we are talking about. The heal and kill potential of organized groups while literally immune to any kind of CC + movement speed buffs is absolutely broken as hell and needs to be fixed without nerfing everyone outside those groups too much again like it happened several times in the past when ZOS was going for a change.

And yet any group can reach that level of play if they put the time into it; and in a competitive environment of course some are going to do that. Cyrodiil is the only place in the game where large scale groups can fight each other.

When I see people complaining like this all I see is "I didn't want to put the same amount of time in as they did, so please punish them."

HonestLoverr

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

neferpitou73 wrote: »

HonestLoverr wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

pleximus wrote: »

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable.

The thing is, a well-organized group will always be superior when facing a group of pugs. They are organized and as a group better prepared. They are also likely on comms which provides even more advantage.

This is and should be the case in Cyrodiil and BGs. It is also what should be expected.

Nearly godmode and oneshotting people at once is definitely something I would call superior too. But should this be the case? No way. This is not some tiny advantage we are talking about. The heal and kill potential of organized groups while literally immune to any kind of CC + movement speed buffs is absolutely broken as hell and needs to be fixed without nerfing everyone outside those groups too much again like it happened several times in the past when ZOS was going for a change.

And yet any group can reach that level of play if they put the time into it; and in a competitive environment of course some are going to do that. Cyrodiil is the only place in the game where large scale groups can fight each other.

When I see people complaining like this all I see is "I didn't want to put the same amount of time in as they did, so please punish them."

You are right. I agree with you here. Everyone can reach that level play indeed. I was fan of organized group play in the past. Couldn't ever imagine playing without coordinating. But after so many changes in all these years, group play turned into pure bombing only with the rest of the group members being nothing but buffers, healers, and the usual non-bomber (if at all). The times where CC tanks were a thing was when I played one myself. It was fun as hell defiling and CCing other groups and zergs with actual fights. Today? Thats no fights if all you do is coordinating your bomb. The rest just spams their stuff.

So yea, I am indeed not interested to put any effort in such kind of group play. And it feels as ridiculous getting bombed as it does running with such a group. The one time I tried it was enough for me.

Ragnaroek93

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

neferpitou73 wrote: »

HonestLoverr wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

pleximus wrote: »

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable.

The thing is, a well-organized group will always be superior when facing a group of pugs. They are organized and as a group better prepared. They are also likely on comms which provides even more advantage.

This is and should be the case in Cyrodiil and BGs. It is also what should be expected.

Nearly godmode and oneshotting people at once is definitely something I would call superior too. But should this be the case? No way. This is not some tiny advantage we are talking about. The heal and kill potential of organized groups while literally immune to any kind of CC + movement speed buffs is absolutely broken as hell and needs to be fixed without nerfing everyone outside those groups too much again like it happened several times in the past when ZOS was going for a change.

And yet any group can reach that level of play if they put the time into it; and in a competitive environment of course some are going to do that. Cyrodiil is the only place in the game where large scale groups can fight each other.

When I see people complaining like this all I see is "I didn't want to put the same amount of time in as they did, so please punish them."

Everybody in a ballgroup has literally 34859345893458345954 health per second, what effort are we talking about? Because you're able to organize enough people to play with you deserve to be (almost) unkillable?

mocap

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

it is impossible to make anti ball set due to affecting regular groups. Simply put: ball groups will use that sets lol

Exception could be super fantastic stuff. Something like:
(5 item) Deals 2345 damage in a 10 meter radius around target. Each stacked HoT on target will increase this damage by 50%. Each additional target will increase this damage by 50%. Lol kekw.

neferpitou73

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

HonestLoverr wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

pleximus wrote: »

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable.

The thing is, a well-organized group will always be superior when facing a group of pugs. They are organized and as a group better prepared. They are also likely on comms which provides even more advantage.

This is and should be the case in Cyrodiil and BGs. It is also what should be expected.

Nearly godmode and oneshotting people at once is definitely something I would call superior too. But should this be the case? No way. This is not some tiny advantage we are talking about. The heal and kill potential of organized groups while literally immune to any kind of CC + movement speed buffs is absolutely broken as hell and needs to be fixed without nerfing everyone outside those groups too much again like it happened several times in the past when ZOS was going for a change.

And yet any group can reach that level of play if they put the time into it; and in a competitive environment of course some are going to do that. Cyrodiil is the only place in the game where large scale groups can fight each other.

When I see people complaining like this all I see is "I didn't want to put the same amount of time in as they did, so please punish them."

Everybody in a ballgroup has literally 34859345893458345954 health per second, what effort are we talking about? Because you're able to organize enough people to play with you deserve to be (almost) unkillable?

Yes. In a group based game mode; a group that organizes itself, divides it's roles among it's members, theorycrafts optimal builds, and trains it's members, will and should always have a major advantage over an unorganized mob. The fact that you don't want to make a group like this does not make it unfair.

EDIT: I do want to add tho, that while I disagree that heal stacking is a major problem, there are aspects of groups that are overtuned mostly based on changes made over the past 2 years by ZOS: namely:

-Snow treaders
-harmony
-Dark Convergence
-Plaguebreak
-The Occult Overload change
-Hybridization (leading to increased stats on DDs and healers)
-Group size reductions (which makes PUGs fend for themselves more)

All of which I have been opposed to. And I have no issue with them targeting these things.

Cuddlypuff

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

HonestLoverr wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

pleximus wrote: »

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable.

The thing is, a well-organized group will always be superior when facing a group of pugs. They are organized and as a group better prepared. They are also likely on comms which provides even more advantage.

This is and should be the case in Cyrodiil and BGs. It is also what should be expected.

Nearly godmode and oneshotting people at once is definitely something I would call superior too. But should this be the case? No way. This is not some tiny advantage we are talking about. The heal and kill potential of organized groups while literally immune to any kind of CC + movement speed buffs is absolutely broken as hell and needs to be fixed without nerfing everyone outside those groups too much again like it happened several times in the past when ZOS was going for a change.

And yet any group can reach that level of play if they put the time into it; and in a competitive environment of course some are going to do that. Cyrodiil is the only place in the game where large scale groups can fight each other.

When I see people complaining like this all I see is "I didn't want to put the same amount of time in as they did, so please punish them."

Everybody in a ballgroup has literally 34859345893458345954 health per second, what effort are we talking about? Because you're able to organize enough people to play with you deserve to be (almost) unkillable?

Yes. In a group based game mode; a group that organizes itself, divides it's roles among it's members, theorycrafts optimal builds, and trains it's members, will and should always have a major advantage over an unorganized mob. The fact that you don't want to make a group like this does not make it unfair.

EDIT: I do want to add tho, that while I disagree that heal stacking is a major problem, there are aspects of groups that are overtuned mostly based on changes made over the past 2 years by ZOS: namely:

-Snow treaders
-harmony
-Dark Convergence
-Plaguebreak
-The Occult Overload change
-Hybridization (leading to increased stats on DDs and healers)
-Group size reductions (which makes PUGs fend for themselves more)

All of which I have been opposed to. And I have no issue with them targeting these things.

Just about everything mentioned (except harmony synergy spam, hybrid crossheal spam and snow treaders) has diminishing returns in larger groups. The most amusing is all the cheese bomb procs because they only trigger once on death, regardless of the group size that killed the target. Multiple Dcons is also useless unless you want to be handing out free CC immunity for counterbombers to roll dodge through your group on ulti phase and wipe supports from behind.

Anyway if you want the simplest counterargument, look no further than the No Proc tests where ball zergs had no counterplay whatsoever (except painstakingly tab targeting and individually nuking down healers). I've missed a lot of metas in between but I'm pretty sure that ball zerg overall power/effectiveness has only fallen away since then. The first few days of the PC-NA hardware upgrade saw these "overtuned groups" get solo/duo bombed within seconds of forming up, and just exposed the fact that they were solely crutching on lag all along. Unfortunately they later realized that stacking ball groups into a 24-36 man zerg would restore the lag. Combined with the crippling FPS drops since U33 that ZOS has still not acknowledged, I've just lost the motivation to even deal with them.

Wolfpaw

Nemeliom wrote: »

Could we get ZOS into this conversation? We need them to know this is happening.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Bill @ZOS_Adrikoth @ZOS_KaiSchober @ZOS_ConnorG

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Crosshealing is completely out of control and needs to be fixed. Anti ballgroup sets never worked properly and would just be a bandaid fix. Last time we got Dark Convergence and instead of countering ballgroups it made up for a totally miserable experience for everybody.

The only people calling those sets anti ballgroup is players here on the forums, ZOS put those sets to deal with faction zergs...or what some like to call themselves, solo players, you know the solo players riding 30+ to map call-outs.

Ball/organized groups is the present and future of Cyrodiil.

neferpitou73

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

neferpitou73 wrote: »

HonestLoverr wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

pleximus wrote: »

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable.

The thing is, a well-organized group will always be superior when facing a group of pugs. They are organized and as a group better prepared. They are also likely on comms which provides even more advantage.

This is and should be the case in Cyrodiil and BGs. It is also what should be expected.

Nearly godmode and oneshotting people at once is definitely something I would call superior too. But should this be the case? No way. This is not some tiny advantage we are talking about. The heal and kill potential of organized groups while literally immune to any kind of CC + movement speed buffs is absolutely broken as hell and needs to be fixed without nerfing everyone outside those groups too much again like it happened several times in the past when ZOS was going for a change.

And yet any group can reach that level of play if they put the time into it; and in a competitive environment of course some are going to do that. Cyrodiil is the only place in the game where large scale groups can fight each other.

When I see people complaining like this all I see is "I didn't want to put the same amount of time in as they did, so please punish them."

Everybody in a ballgroup has literally 34859345893458345954 health per second, what effort are we talking about? Because you're able to organize enough people to play with you deserve to be (almost) unkillable?

Yes. In a group based game mode; a group that organizes itself, divides it's roles among it's members, theorycrafts optimal builds, and trains it's members, will and should always have a major advantage over an unorganized mob. The fact that you don't want to make a group like this does not make it unfair.

EDIT: I do want to add tho, that while I disagree that heal stacking is a major problem, there are aspects of groups that are overtuned mostly based on changes made over the past 2 years by ZOS: namely:

-Snow treaders
-harmony
-Dark Convergence
-Plaguebreak
-The Occult Overload change
-Hybridization (leading to increased stats on DDs and healers)
-Group size reductions (which makes PUGs fend for themselves more)

All of which I have been opposed to. And I have no issue with them targeting these things.

Just about everything mentioned (except harmony synergy spam, hybrid crossheal spam and snow treaders) has diminishing returns in larger groups. The most amusing is all the cheese bomb procs because they only trigger once on death, regardless of the group size that killed the target. Multiple Dcons is also useless unless you want to be handing out free CC immunity for counterbombers to roll dodge through your group on ulti phase and wipe supports from behind.

Anyway if you want the simplest counterargument, look no further than the No Proc tests where ball zergs had no counterplay whatsoever (except painstakingly tab targeting and individually nuking down healers). I've missed a lot of metas in between but I'm pretty sure that ball zerg overall power/effectiveness has only fallen away since then. The first few days of the PC-NA hardware upgrade saw these "overtuned groups" get solo/duo bombed within seconds of forming up, and just exposed the fact that they were solely crutching on lag all along. Unfortunately they later realized that stacking ball groups into a 24-36 man zerg would restore the lag. Combined with the crippling FPS drops since U33 that ZOS has still not acknowledged, I've just lost the motivation to even deal with them.

You and I remember the No-Proc tests very differently.

If you don't think that DC has made things easier for ball groups I don't know what to tell you. There's no tool more effective for stacking large amounts of opponents for a good bomb. PB is just a more efficient vicious death, and the damage on the new Occult Overload is obscene.

divnyi

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

@neferpitou73 you are talking about organizing, roles etc, but why do you dodging the main point of this thread - organized group has Vigor + Radiant Regeneration stacks, which doesn't require you to fit any role, you spam it regardless of your role.

Vigor heals 3 times less than resolving vigor. Given 12man group, it means you get 4 resolving vigors running all the time just from ONE skill. FOUR. RESOLVING. VIGORS. And I didn't count radiant regens in. How is this fair?

neferpitou73

divnyi wrote: »

@neferpitou73 you are talking about organizing, roles etc, but why do you dodging the main point of this thread - organized group has Vigor + Radiant Regeneration stacks, which doesn't require you to fit any role, you spam it regardless of your role.

Vigor heals 3 times less than resolving vigor. Given 12man group, it means you get 4 resolving vigors running all the time just from ONE skill. FOUR. RESOLVING. VIGORS. And I didn't count radiant regens in. How is this fair?

Because I don't think it's an issue. My group only runs Vigor/RR on our healers and we still stomp zergs. It's the group coordination and division of labor that allows ball groups to survive. If I'm on a DD I don't have to worry about keeping myself alive and can just run into groups relying on my talented healers to keep me alive. Likewise my healers can rely on the DDs to just kill everything so they can focus on keeping things alive.

I'm just saying, you guys have had two ball group leads come into this thread to tell you they don't think the heal stacks are the issue but have provided several other reasons why they think groups are dominating/overtuned. And we spend hours theorycrafting these comps so we know what we're talking about. Perhaps we should tackle these things before we mess with healing, which will affect literally every part of the game?

Arcanasx

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

neferpitou73 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@neferpitou73 you are talking about organizing, roles etc, but why do you dodging the main point of this thread - organized group has Vigor + Radiant Regeneration stacks, which doesn't require you to fit any role, you spam it regardless of your role.

Vigor heals 3 times less than resolving vigor. Given 12man group, it means you get 4 resolving vigors running all the time just from ONE skill. FOUR. RESOLVING. VIGORS. And I didn't count radiant regens in. How is this fair?

Because I don't think it's an issue. My group only runs Vigor/RR on our healers and we still stomp zergs. It's the group coordination and division of labor that allows ball groups to survive. If I'm on a DD I don't have to worry about keeping myself alive and can just run into groups relying on my talented healers to keep me alive. Likewise my healers can rely on the DDs to just kill everything so they can focus on keeping things alive.

I'm just saying, you guys have had two ball group leads come into this thread to tell you they don't think the heal stacks are the issue but have provided several other reasons why they think groups are dominating/overtuned. And we spend hours theorycrafting these comps so we know what we're talking about. Perhaps we should tackle these things before we mess with healing, which will affect literally every part of the game?

Its almost as if HOT stacking is overtuned when you can just rely on stacking multiple HOTs to keep a group alive. So much that DDs don't have to worry about keeping themselves alive when their healers can carry their survivability for them by simply applying passive HOTs.

React

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

neferpitou73 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@neferpitou73 you are talking about organizing, roles etc, but why do you dodging the main point of this thread - organized group has Vigor + Radiant Regeneration stacks, which doesn't require you to fit any role, you spam it regardless of your role.

Vigor heals 3 times less than resolving vigor. Given 12man group, it means you get 4 resolving vigors running all the time just from ONE skill. FOUR. RESOLVING. VIGORS. And I didn't count radiant regens in. How is this fair?

Because I don't think it's an issue. My group only runs Vigor/RR on our healers and we still stomp zergs. It's the group coordination and division of labor that allows ball groups to survive. If I'm on a DD I don't have to worry about keeping myself alive and can just run into groups relying on my talented healers to keep me alive. Likewise my healers can rely on the DDs to just kill everything so they can focus on keeping things alive.

I'm just saying, you guys have had two ball group leads come into this thread to tell you they don't think the heal stacks are the issue but have provided several other reasons why they think groups are dominating/overtuned. And we spend hours theorycrafting these comps so we know what we're talking about. Perhaps we should tackle these things before we mess with healing, which will affect literally every part of the game?

I don't know why everyone in this thread glazes over the fact that the ball groups are by far, the largest negative impact on performance that exists. Zenimax themselves acknowledged this back at the beginning of their year of performance testing, and said that the reason they have such a negative impact on server performance is because of the spamming of abilities and the constant calculations related to those abilities.

It is so obvious that having 5 RRs and 5 vigors on you should not exist in the game, and even more obvious that removing the ability to do this will be the easiest way to massively reduce the calculations your "coordinated groups" cause. As the ball group players themselves have said "we'll adapt". So what is the issue with removing this function?

Amottica

HonestLoverr wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

pleximus wrote: »

I honestly do not understand Drac, Tyr, etc are still having fun after all these years spamming in a ball against pugs while being nearly unkillable.

The thing is, a well-organized group will always be superior when facing a group of pugs. They are organized and as a group better prepared. They are also likely on comms which provides even more advantage.

This is and should be the case in Cyrodiil and BGs. It is also what should be expected.

Nearly godmode and oneshotting people at once is definitely something I would call superior too. But should this be the case? No way. This is not some tiny advantage we are talking about. The heal and kill potential of organized groups while literally immune to any kind of CC + movement speed buffs is absolutely broken as hell and needs to be fixed without nerfing everyone outside those groups too much again like it happened several times in the past when ZOS was going for a change.

Context is important.

• A group of 10 people who are on comms, organized, and have good leadership should be a challenge for a group of pugs or individuals of the same size.
• If they focus players, which can easily be done with an organized group on comms, then yes, the focused player should die PDQ.
• Since the organized group will have a healer or two that are focused and on comms with the group they should have greater survival against that rag-tag group that may or may not have a true healer in the mix.

There are huge benefits of running with a good group vs with pugs or disorganized groups and that is how it should be.

I am not suggesting there is some type of group makeup that is or is not an issue but merely replying based on what is stated in the post I quoted.

Wolfpaw

neferpitou73 wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

@neferpitou73 you are talking about organizing, roles etc, but why do you dodging the main point of this thread - organized group has Vigor + Radiant Regeneration stacks, which doesn't require you to fit any role, you spam it regardless of your role.

Vigor heals 3 times less than resolving vigor. Given 12man group, it means you get 4 resolving vigors running all the time just from ONE skill. FOUR. RESOLVING. VIGORS. And I didn't count radiant regens in. How is this fair?

Because I don't think it's an issue. My group only runs Vigor/RR on our healers and we still stomp zergs. It's the group coordination and division of labor that allows ball groups to survive. If I'm on a DD I don't have to worry about keeping myself alive and can just run into groups relying on my talented healers to keep me alive. Likewise my healers can rely on the DDs to just kill everything so they can focus on keeping things alive.

I'm just saying, you guys have had two ball group leads come into this thread to tell you they don't think the heal stacks are the issue but have provided several other reasons why they think groups are dominating/overtuned. And we spend hours theorycrafting these comps so we know what we're talking about. Perhaps we should tackle these things before we mess with healing, which will affect literally every part of the game?

Dont play with your food!
Jkjk, our group doesn't stack hots like crazy either, it's more about coordination & timing.

xylena_lazarow

Disallow multiple rapid/radiating regeneration procs to stack and instead have the highest heal available take precedent

It's already pretty miserable to fight against nigh-unkillable opponents who drag out objectives just so they can repeatedly kill the same disorganized casuals over and over. It's even more miserable when most of the available counterplay has been deleted. Most sieges are pathetically weak against their heal stacks, and most CC abilities are pathetically useless against their Snow Treaders or other mobility buffs. Same is true whether 4-person smallscale or 12-person ball.

At some point there will be no more pugs left to stomp, and PvP will die.

Wolfpaw

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

It's already pretty miserable to fight against nigh-unkillable opponents who drag out objectives just so they can repeatedly kill the same disorganized casuals over and over. It's even more miserable when most of the available counterplay has been deleted. Most sieges are pathetically weak against their heal stacks, and most CC abilities are pathetically useless against their Snow Treaders or other mobility buffs. Same is true whether 4-person smallscale or 12-person ball.

At some point there will be no more pugs left to stomp, and PvP will die.

Doubt it, if anything it pushes players to organize and form their own groups.

Don't enjoy this playstyle? No-proc campaign, BG's, & dueling.