Please stop doing this when a new expansion is due.

pklemming

Kilt has been fine for a long time now, with no real adjustments done to it. Apparently, it only became overpowered when new mythics were on the horizon in the new expansion. It doesn't seem at all like the sales of the new expansion were low and you needed to push the overpowered mythics in the new expansion. Not the first time you have done this with gear sets, and it is getting a little old now.

I mean, it is not as though you are concerned with reigning in dps, with the parsing coming out of PTS.

If an expansion can't stand on it's own merits, there is something wrong with the expansion.

spartaxoxo

The kilt has been needed a nerf

pklemming

It is the timing, though.. Always the timing. Things that were 'fine', suddenly become 'not fine' when a new expansion is due. Then we will have new OP items and sets until they need to push something else.

We actually give feedback in PTS which is pretty much always ignored, and stuff tend to go live, as is, despite there being concerns prior to release.

CyberOnEso

pklemming wrote: »

I mean, it is not as though you are concerned with reigning in dps, with the parsing coming out of PTS.

If this wasn't the case then why did they nerf Deadly Aim, Master at Arms, Thaumaturge and Biting Aura by 40%, Backstabber by 33% and Fightning Finesse by 20%. These changes affect DPS far more than the kilt changes do.

The kilt was nerfed by 12%, and is still used in the parsing on the PTS.

If something can be nerfed as is still used nearly just as often as before then the nerf was justified.

ApoAlaia

The timing might seem uncanny but they always do that, cycle after cycle.

The moment something becomes the go-to item across the board they nerf it.

The surprising thing - for me - is that they didn't get around to doing it earlier, maybe they were too busy with the current 'hybridization' schedule, maybe they wanted to see how it panned out first.

If is related to the upcoming mythics, which is way too early in the PTS cycle to tell if they will survive in any useable form before they go live, I don't see a clear connection myself.

pklemming

10 second duration... plus I am still hitting crit cap on PTS. So trash fights to boss fights you are basically dropping your stacks every single time now.

jtm1018

Nerf, rinse, repeat.

Do we really need to memorize this?

Nuff said.

Runefang

Mothers Sorrow and Medusa were BIS for the longest time and they’re base game sets. Stormfist is one of the strongest stam monster sets and is base game. Advancing Yokeda is as good as Kinras generally and is base game.

I get the conspiracy but honestly a new carrot is better than a constant stick anyway.

Coatmagic

It is a very obvious silly cycle.
As someone who has never been a number cruncher, these things have zero affect on me personally, but definitely can sympathize the the theory crafters and meta chasers.
Also, have lost quite a few friends that have given up entirely and moved on to other games due to the heavy handed (and ridiculously obvious timing) of the constant changes.
New releases should be adding flavour and fun, not taking it away, and it makes it very hard to get excited for the shiny new thing when it's basically being forced upon you

dmnqwk

I disagree it's silly as someone called it, but I agree it can be frustrating.

Frustration can be turned into a positive, wherein you use that setback to drive you to new heights, or you can turn it into a negative, where you feel nothing you do matters and spiral out of control.

Nerfs here, buffs there, as anyone who has ever seen an internet post will understand there are ALWAYS multiple opinions going on. It's better to turn that frustration into a reason to keep playing, maybe try another set you want to use but are afraid is not good enough but maybe the gap has shrunk to where YOU using it IS better!

And if people are giving up on this game because it has changes, they really shouldn't play MMOs because every single MMO does this (I admit, I have to rely on my sister for FFXIV info about how they do changes like that, before someone tries to use that one game as a reason it's not true). Without these changes, 100% of people would tire of the game and it wouldn't still be going after 8 years with constant 'give us new' posts all the time asking for 'new this new that no not that thing but this thing etc etc'.

Evolve or die as it were.

Ratzkifal

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The kilt has been needed a nerf

Why? Monster sets were really close behind now that they can crit as well. As someone who spent 7 hours (and I was one of the lucky ones) farming for that lead in Shadowfen I feel like this is an absolutely inappropriate nerf. I am not talking about the crit value either. Reducing the duration from 1minute to 10 seconds is just silly. They are treating the Kilt like it is Tzogvin's or some other stacking set that can't lose its stacks when getting hit. It already got its nerf when crit damage got capped.

It definitely smells of trying to make it so that you have to buy the new chapter to stay relevant. (Mora anyone?)

LashanW

I bought Blackwood chapter just for the kilt and the Bahsei set. Should've known better. Not falling for that again, ever.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The kilt has been needed a nerf

Why?

CyberOnEso wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

I mean, it is not as though you are concerned with reigning in dps, with the parsing coming out of PTS.

The kilt was nerfed by 12%, and is still used in the parsing on the PTS.

If something can be nerfed as is still used nearly just as often as before then the nerf was justified.

12% nerf? Oh you mean the nerf to the overall crit chance. Instead of 5.7% crit chance increase now you'll get only 5% crit chance. Yeah nobody cares about that.

They nerfed the crap out of the stack duration. They only last 10 seconds now instead of a minute. That's a whopping 83% nerf to the stack duration. This is a very annoying change for real fights where you could keep the stacks in between trash fights, between a trash fight and boss fight, or during immunity phases of a boss fight.
They made kilt much less useful in many fights.

Sure you can keep all the stacks indefinitely during a dummy parse, but who cares about that?

Runefang

LashanW wrote: »

I bought Blackwood chapter just for the kilt and the Bahsei set. Should've known better. Not falling for that again, ever.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The kilt has been needed a nerf

Why?

CyberOnEso wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

I mean, it is not as though you are concerned with reigning in dps, with the parsing coming out of PTS.

The kilt was nerfed by 12%, and is still used in the parsing on the PTS.

If something can be nerfed as is still used nearly just as often as before then the nerf was justified.

12% nerf? Oh you mean the nerf to the overall crit chance. Instead of 5.7% crit chance increase now you'll get only 5% crit chance. Yeah nobody cares about that.

They nerfed the crap out of the stack duration. They only last 10 seconds now instead of a minute. That's a whopping 83% nerf to the stack duration. This is a very annoying change for real fights where you could keep the stacks in between trash fights, between a trash fight and boss fight, or during immunity phases of a boss fight.
They made kilt much less useful in many fights.

Sure you can keep all the stacks indefinitely during a dummy parse, but who cares about that?

Which fights is it less useful in? And less useful means you would wear another mythic in its stead. Because if you’d still wear kilt anyway a nerf was needed.

Bat

How quick we are to forget

Thrassian Stranglers
Malacath's Band of Brutality
Harpooner's Wading Kilt

There is a pattern, and it's not really rocket surgery deducing why.

Hapexamendios

Oakensoul Ring will probably be next on that list.

shadyjane62

I stopped chasing mythics when I found myself crouched over a nirnroot in Shadowfen snarling at anyone that came near.

You can free yourself from from the color orange. It's a stinky color anyway.

merpins

I mean yeah, gotta push the new expansion somehow!
But seriously, the nerf to the crit rate was called for, but the nerf to duration it just a QoL nerf more than anything. Makes it more annoying to use. My guess is it isn't to make players use the Oakensoul Ring, but to push the new Mora's whispers mythic, since it's more consistent, makes you play the game to get the benefits, and is a less overall DPS increase. And it'll work, I'll 100% use this over Kilt since it's way more convenient with that kilt nerf. The Oakensoul Ring will also probably receive a nerf early on, since it's super strong. But since it's not going to be an item that is used in every DPS build like Kilt was, it'll probably get nerfed into being a niche choice for 1-bar builds but still be useful for them. Most of the mythics this update seem GREAT, for a couple of builds. None of them seem as all-intrusive as Kilt, other than maybe Sea-Serpent's Coil, but that one will still probably be something used primarily by Templars.

proprio.meb16_ESO

nerfs keep the game going almost as much as new content..
people need to rework their builds, farm new gear, switch skills... its pretty annoying but keeps players occupied, so always expect it... the more something is widely used the more probable it will be nerfed down (or superseeded) in the future

Ratzkifal

Runefang wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

I bought Blackwood chapter just for the kilt and the Bahsei set. Should've known better. Not falling for that again, ever.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The kilt has been needed a nerf

Why?

CyberOnEso wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

I mean, it is not as though you are concerned with reigning in dps, with the parsing coming out of PTS.

The kilt was nerfed by 12%, and is still used in the parsing on the PTS.

If something can be nerfed as is still used nearly just as often as before then the nerf was justified.

12% nerf? Oh you mean the nerf to the overall crit chance. Instead of 5.7% crit chance increase now you'll get only 5% crit chance. Yeah nobody cares about that.

They nerfed the crap out of the stack duration. They only last 10 seconds now instead of a minute. That's a whopping 83% nerf to the stack duration. This is a very annoying change for real fights where you could keep the stacks in between trash fights, between a trash fight and boss fight, or during immunity phases of a boss fight.
They made kilt much less useful in many fights.

Sure you can keep all the stacks indefinitely during a dummy parse, but who cares about that?

Which fights is it less useful in? And less useful means you would wear another mythic in its stead. Because if you’d still wear kilt anyway a nerf was needed.

Pretty much every dungeon because the transition between mobs and bosses will make the stacks wear off. Also fights like Lokkestiiz because your fights gets paused by the boss becoming untargettable. For all of these instances a monster set or the new Mora's Whispers mythic would be more useful now. Only very specific fights can make use of the kilt and you are not going to get an extra kilt setup just for that, you are just going to drop the kilt entirely.

Dexter411

Runefang wrote: »

Mothers Sorrow and Medusa were BIS for the longest time and they’re base game sets. Stormfist is one of the strongest stam monster sets and is base game. Advancing Yokeda is as good as Kinras generally and is base game.

I get the conspiracy but honestly a new carrot is better than a constant stick anyway.

Medusa is BiS? Since when? Tzog is better or you know, use trap or Channeled Acceleration. Mother Sorrow is solid option but it doesn't even comes close to Bashei. Stop with the Alcast mentality and actually look for good info.

Everytime there is new Chapter there is new OP set that outshines the others.

Kilt: best Mythic for dps when fight allows it
Bashei: Best in slot, outshines any other light armor even after "nerf"
Saxheel: "go to" set for supports(not as much after Turning Tides)
Sul-Xan: one of the best AoE sets

What are you talking about huh buddy? You can make build without blackwood, you can do 100k dummy parse without Blackwood but if you want to get the most out of it, BUY CHAPTER

pklemming

proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

nerfs keep the game going almost as much as new content..
people need to rework their builds, farm new gear, switch skills... its pretty annoying but keeps players occupied, so always expect it... the more something is widely used the more probable it will be nerfed down (or superseeded) in the future

Except after a while we just say, "*&^* (*", and go find something else. The majority of my time is now spent in Rimworld, with me occasionally helping my wife in GW2. My playing time for ESO just gets less and less.

The achievement combine just accelerated this. no point in me levelling up a new class now and getting achievements on them, since my level 3 has all the achievements of my main.

proprio.meb16_ESO

pklemming wrote: »

proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

nerfs keep the game going almost as much as new content..
people need to rework their builds, farm new gear, switch skills... its pretty annoying but keeps players occupied, so always expect it... the more something is widely used the more probable it will be nerfed down (or superseeded) in the future

Except after a while we just say, "*&^* (*", and go find something else. The majority of my time is now spent in Rimworld, with me occasionally helping my wife in GW2. My playing time for ESO just gets less and less.

The achievement combine just accelerated this. no point in me levelling up a new class now and getting achievements on them, since my level 3 has all the achievements of my main.

That's not an issue for zos, as it has more or less always happened... as soon as newbies are drawn in theres no issue on their side.

I'm pretty close to that point as well btw (mainly for awa and subsequent lack of content - im playing a bare minimum since i feel the game pretty stale atm), zos cares little for veteran players...

Runefang

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

LashanW wrote: »

I bought Blackwood chapter just for the kilt and the Bahsei set. Should've known better. Not falling for that again, ever.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

The kilt has been needed a nerf

Why?

CyberOnEso wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

I mean, it is not as though you are concerned with reigning in dps, with the parsing coming out of PTS.

The kilt was nerfed by 12%, and is still used in the parsing on the PTS.

If something can be nerfed as is still used nearly just as often as before then the nerf was justified.

12% nerf? Oh you mean the nerf to the overall crit chance. Instead of 5.7% crit chance increase now you'll get only 5% crit chance. Yeah nobody cares about that.

They nerfed the crap out of the stack duration. They only last 10 seconds now instead of a minute. That's a whopping 83% nerf to the stack duration. This is a very annoying change for real fights where you could keep the stacks in between trash fights, between a trash fight and boss fight, or during immunity phases of a boss fight.
They made kilt much less useful in many fights.

Sure you can keep all the stacks indefinitely during a dummy parse, but who cares about that?

Which fights is it less useful in? And less useful means you would wear another mythic in its stead. Because if you’d still wear kilt anyway a nerf was needed.

Pretty much every dungeon because the transition between mobs and bosses will make the stacks wear off. Also fights like Lokkestiiz because your fights gets paused by the boss becoming untargettable. For all of these instances a monster set or the new Mora's Whispers mythic would be more useful now. Only very specific fights can make use of the kilt and you are not going to get an extra kilt setup just for that, you are just going to drop the kilt entirely.

I don't think Kilt is great in dungeons anyway, you get hit more often with direct damage in there than a trial. Maybe thats just me and risky positioning I also think Coil over kilt (even the current kilt) is going to win in dungeons anyway because it gives great buffs and you're not likely to get Olo in a dungeon.

None of the top Lokke parses for this patch are running kilt anyway so its already not preferred over monster sets in that fight. The only trial fights I can see where kilt is no longer preferred is maaaybe Vrol/Yandir which have really short fight times for the top optimised groups.

Runefang

Dexter411 wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Mothers Sorrow and Medusa were BIS for the longest time and they’re base game sets. Stormfist is one of the strongest stam monster sets and is base game. Advancing Yokeda is as good as Kinras generally and is base game.

I get the conspiracy but honestly a new carrot is better than a constant stick anyway.

Medusa is BiS? Since when? Tzog is better or you know, use trap or Channeled Acceleration. Mother Sorrow is solid option but it doesn't even comes close to Bashei. Stop with the Alcast mentality and actually look for good info.

Everytime there is new Chapter there is new OP set that outshines the others.

Kilt: best Mythic for dps when fight allows it
Bashei: Best in slot, outshines any other light armor even after "nerf"
Saxheel: "go to" set for supports(not as much after Turning Tides)
Sul-Xan: one of the best AoE sets

What are you talking about huh buddy? You can make build without blackwood, you can do 100k dummy parse without Blackwood but if you want to get the most out of it, BUY CHAPTER

For Medusa/Mother's Sorrow I said they were BiS, they're not now obviously. But if there was some great conspiracy to have the most recent content provide the best gear, we'd never have seen these sets be BiS for years. Heck Relequen is still BiS for medium and Cloudrest is 4 years old!

I suppose I also don't mind new sets being BiS anyway. Imagine going years with the same gear, sounds boring to me. Right now there are tons of viable options to run too (Tzog/Kinras/Ay/Nirn are fairly interchangeable front bar, Rele/Bahsei along with many support ones are all decent body sets).

LashanW

Runefang wrote: »

Which fights is it less useful in? And less useful means you would wear another mythic in its stead. Because if you’d still wear kilt anyway a nerf was needed.

Trash fights in a lot of trials and some dungeons. Take Sunspire for example. Currently you can go to subsequent trash fights with full kilt stacks, and even start Yolna boss fight with full kilt stacks. Because the 1 minute duration allows this.

But the new 10 second duration is simply not enough for this. By the time you reach the next trash fight or the boss fight, the stacks will have fallen off. Especially if there are doors in between that trigger a short loading screen (Sunspire has several such doors), which can take several seconds for some players because of top notch server performance.

My biggest issue is the reasoning behind the nerf, not unlike your own reasoning.

The sort of usage I described was expected (I can't fathom devs couldn't realize such a use case when they designed 1 minute stacks) and was fine for a year, but now suddenly they want to discourage it?
More contextual? It was already quite contextual because of stack losing condition, crit damage cap and the fact that top tier monster sets are on par with kilt now that they are allowed to crit again.

Overshadowing a lot of other mythics?
Ok let's look at the other mythics we currently have,

• Works best in pvp
  • Gaze of Sithis
  • Malacath's Band of Brutality
  • Snow Treaders
  • Torc of Tonal Constancy
• Intended for support roles
  • Bloodlord's Embrace
  • Pearls of Ehlnofey
  • Spaulder of Ruin
• Intended for solo play / specific tasks
  • Ring of the Pale Order
  • Ring of the Wild Hunt
  • Shapeshifter's Chain

Could be used for PvE endgame DPS role

• Belharza's Band (proc condition doesn't work with LA weaving and the stun can interfere tank's job)
• Markyn Ring of Majesty (doesn't work well in endgame PvE thanks to power of 5pc sets and the fact most 3pc sets are only available on weapons and jewels, this is better on PvP I guess)
• Thrassian Stranglers (already received a lot of "logical" nerfs)
• Death Dealer's Fete (this is actually pretty awesome)

Overshadowing a lot of other mythics. There wasn't much of a competition in the first place.

The only other good mythic for endgame dps compared to the kilt, is DDF (Death Dealer's Fate). I personally didn't like to use it because it used a jewelry slot. I often used sets like Medusa and Advancing Yokeda which are heavy armor and DDF was hard to use with them as it meant having to use a heavy piece. This was before the armor hybridization. At that point monster sets were allowed to crit again so there is no need to rely solely on mythic items for endgame PvE dps.

Their reasoning for the change is utter nonsense. So I agree with OP.

Edit: My point of view is that of someone pushing for trifecta achievements. I know you can use whatever and don't need top dps for more casual stuff.

FluffWit

If we end up on a one bar meta because they needed something good to sell the summer dlc.... 🤦‍♂️

Pve, pvp, either way the best option should NEVER be to ditch half your skills because one gear piece is so op that it makes any other build redundant.

thorwyn

None of the top Lokke parses for this patch are running kilt anyway so its already not preferred over monster sets in that fight.

Kilt never worked in Lokke fights, so that's nothing new.

pklemming

Lokke is one of the few fights Kilt is not good on. Most trials (vet and HMs) Kilt is fine on. If you are getting hit a lot with direct damage in dungeon content, have a chat with your tank, or stop standing in places that will get you hit. The number of people that like to stand NEXT TO ME, while I am tanking is sadly, really high. Possibly they are just really high, I don't know.

pklemming

[*] Thrassian Stranglers (already received a lot of "logical" nerfs)

Still sore over this. Couldn't 'balance' it, so nerfed it to the point it is incredibly niche now. Good job. I especially loved being made to fish with a plethora of other people, constantly moving fishing spots for hours on end, for what ended up as a piece of junk.

Mythic only referring to the times you see it in content.

Remathilis

Bat wrote: »

rocket surgery

AinSoph

I find it weird that they even nerfed Kilt in the 1st place considering you basically can't use it at all in overland and only in specific encounters where you don't take direct damage and I'm just saying there isn't a list out there of dungeon bosses that fit the criteria but there is a trial one...hmmm....