Do you want ESO's guild trader system to be reworked to a global auction house?

VaranisArano

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Khami wrote: »

SWTOR is down to two servers for NA.

GTN is the AH there. Prices are so high, a new player could never buy anything on it. I was shocked when I saw how expensive everything is on it. Nothing remotely affordable for a returning player who had 5 million credits.



I've been able to buy new races on GTN in the past, no where near the cost of one today. I ended up using the cartel coins I had because 600 of those was easier and faster to get, even in game than making 300 million credits.

This is what will happen if you put everything in a central location aka the AH. Prices will go through the roof and stay there.

Also like to add, prices were lower on GTN when SWTOR had PvE servers, PvP servers, and RP servers, meaning more than two they have today.

Part of the issue, though, with the present guild trader setup is that they are GUILD traders. Even just allowing non guild member players to access the traders to sell, or creating standalone traders at various locations specifically for non-guild member traders to sell in, with limitations so that guild fans would not cry blue murder, would help.

There is a fixed subset of the player base *who will not join a guild*. That is a red line for them, whether you agree with it or not. And those players, apart from spamming zone chat (which as a solution is simply a joke) *can't sell anything*. So they can't keep pace with inflation in the player economy.

To some extent, it wouldn't matter if all prices started hitting the tens of millions *if all players had an equal ability to plug themselves into the player economy and so could keep pace with inflation*.

If players refuse to join a guild, they can always farm the items themselves. Everything that's available on a guild trader can be farmed.

The only real benefit to trading is that you can focus on the gold-making activities you like so you can buy tradeable rewards from activities you don't like. I'd rather farm crafting mats than hunt for particular motifs, while other players prefer to hunt motifs so they don't have to farm their cornflower. Together, we make gold off trading each other what we want. It's convenient, not necessity. I could spend my time farming motifs. They could spend their time farming cornflower.

Being a player who *will not join a guild* is a choice.

Indeed it is a choice. That doesn't actually add much to the debate. A subset of players do not want to play that way. It is also not realistic to say, if for instance you do housing, that you can farm everything. You can, but filling 700 slots by crafting would take you several years, so it just looks like being forcibly pushed to the crown store.

Not everyone plays this game the same way and likes the same things in it. And systems that may seem balanced to a player with X tastes may feel wildly unbalanced to a player with Y tastes. If the feel goes sufficiently out of line with what players find enjoyable to play, then they just leave.

"The game is fine you're playing it wrong", strangely, was not an argument deployed in abundance here over AWA, which was a subject that DID touch a nerve with the types of player on this forum. Other types of players also exist, to whom other game systems are problematic.

I don't think the argument that all players don't have the equal ability to plug themselves into the economy and thus can't keep pace with inflation is accurate. Every player who wants to can find a trading guild to join; refusing to is not the same as lacking the ability to do so.

Moreover when it comes to keeping pace with inflation, all players either spend their time farming the items they want or the gold to buy them.

Even players who refuse to join guilds can farm the items they want. There's no inflation to keep pace with when it comes to farming your own housing mats. I farm mats to sell, but I'm still collecting about the same amount of mats in the same amount of time as I was years ago. You may not be able to keep pace with gold inflation if you refuse to sell to other players, but you can still get every tradeable item for the same amount of time spent farming as ever thus avoiding the whole gold inflation issue!

Farming your own items may not be the alternative you like, but it's a viable method - after all, that's exactly what the sellers are doing. That's how we make our gold.

(And if you feel like farming takes too much time and thus you are pushed to the Crown Store to get items in a timely fashion, that's a feature of the way ZOS monetizes Housing. MMOs are time sinks to begin with, and Housing is a very monetized time sink.)


You can ask for an Auction House all you like. I'm not gonna convince you otherwise.

I do think that players refusing to engage in ESO's trading system, then complaining that they neither want to farm items for themselves nor have the gold to purchase from the players who did farm, is a self-inflicted problem rather than a pervasive one.

Well I left the game, so you're right that I don't agree with you.

But the farming point too often here gets cast as players being lazy, or met with surreal points like "all you need to do is run 18 characters and play the game 5 hours per day", as if that's remotely normal. (It's because of points like those that I will on occasion remind people that the habits of players here are often very far removed from the average player.)

Housing is one of the most imbalanced areas of the game. And you could farm a hell of a long time and still get absolutely nowhere. It's not laziness (whatever that means in the context of an electronic entertainment). It's that when you can only get one ivory clasp or whatever per day without literally running a fully populated zoo of characters, you are going to want to get into the player economy.

Much of the problem with these discussions is that they get played out in isolation. So people look at whether they want an auction house / store / whatever.

But it's hard to discuss the point without looking also at how guild traders connect with things like housing and the crown store. Add them all together and take solo players and you have a system that is a truly offensive grind to play, with the only escape the crown store.

Sure, the farming point can be cast as players being lazy. Personally, I figure that when players complain about the price of cornflower or heartwood (examples taken from the last inflation threads I participated in), the least they can do is spend some time farming their own materials if they don't want to pay me to farm the materials for them.

I mean, I'm running around Craglorn and the Hollow City chopping wood and picking flowers. They can do the exact same thing. Are they lazy if they don't want to spend their time farming? No, but I also don't want to hear them complaining about my prices.


As I noted, housing is very monetized, and that includes some ridiculous grinds for furnishing recipes and ingredients. Even from the beginning, ZOS wanted it to be a lengthy process. That's a deliberate choice by ZOS.

But I see your point about discussing this in isolation, rather than examining how the guild trader economy is connected to all the other game systems. I think there's more than one aspect to isolation though.

I'm not an isolated, solo player; I'm currently in one trading guild that meets my modest needs and I'll farm for an hour when I need more gold for something I want. Last time I tracked my Craglorn loops before the current inflation spike, it was around 100k gold in sales for an hour run, so I'm not spending unreasonable amounts of time farming. So I'm able to furnish my houses over time because I'm willing to farm materials to sell, which allows me to buy the rarer furnishings I want without doing the really time-intensive grinds or buying non-exclusives from the Crown Stores.

Players who isolate themselves by refusing to engage in ESO's trading system are going to have a tougher time with time-intensive activities than players who don't...because they've isolated themselves and are refusing to join guilds.

I dunno. I'm an introverted player who's had good luck finding low maintenance trading guilds. So maybe I don't understand the appeal of isolating oneself from the guild trader economy, and then complaining about the inevitable results.

Northwold

VaranisArano wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Khami wrote: »

SWTOR is down to two servers for NA.

GTN is the AH there. Prices are so high, a new player could never buy anything on it. I was shocked when I saw how expensive everything is on it. Nothing remotely affordable for a returning player who had 5 million credits.



I've been able to buy new races on GTN in the past, no where near the cost of one today. I ended up using the cartel coins I had because 600 of those was easier and faster to get, even in game than making 300 million credits.

This is what will happen if you put everything in a central location aka the AH. Prices will go through the roof and stay there.

Also like to add, prices were lower on GTN when SWTOR had PvE servers, PvP servers, and RP servers, meaning more than two they have today.

Part of the issue, though, with the present guild trader setup is that they are GUILD traders. Even just allowing non guild member players to access the traders to sell, or creating standalone traders at various locations specifically for non-guild member traders to sell in, with limitations so that guild fans would not cry blue murder, would help.

There is a fixed subset of the player base *who will not join a guild*. That is a red line for them, whether you agree with it or not. And those players, apart from spamming zone chat (which as a solution is simply a joke) *can't sell anything*. So they can't keep pace with inflation in the player economy.

To some extent, it wouldn't matter if all prices started hitting the tens of millions *if all players had an equal ability to plug themselves into the player economy and so could keep pace with inflation*.

If players refuse to join a guild, they can always farm the items themselves. Everything that's available on a guild trader can be farmed.

The only real benefit to trading is that you can focus on the gold-making activities you like so you can buy tradeable rewards from activities you don't like. I'd rather farm crafting mats than hunt for particular motifs, while other players prefer to hunt motifs so they don't have to farm their cornflower. Together, we make gold off trading each other what we want. It's convenient, not necessity. I could spend my time farming motifs. They could spend their time farming cornflower.

Being a player who *will not join a guild* is a choice.

Indeed it is a choice. That doesn't actually add much to the debate. A subset of players do not want to play that way. It is also not realistic to say, if for instance you do housing, that you can farm everything. You can, but filling 700 slots by crafting would take you several years, so it just looks like being forcibly pushed to the crown store.

Not everyone plays this game the same way and likes the same things in it. And systems that may seem balanced to a player with X tastes may feel wildly unbalanced to a player with Y tastes. If the feel goes sufficiently out of line with what players find enjoyable to play, then they just leave.

"The game is fine you're playing it wrong", strangely, was not an argument deployed in abundance here over AWA, which was a subject that DID touch a nerve with the types of player on this forum. Other types of players also exist, to whom other game systems are problematic.

I don't think the argument that all players don't have the equal ability to plug themselves into the economy and thus can't keep pace with inflation is accurate. Every player who wants to can find a trading guild to join; refusing to is not the same as lacking the ability to do so.

Moreover when it comes to keeping pace with inflation, all players either spend their time farming the items they want or the gold to buy them.

Even players who refuse to join guilds can farm the items they want. There's no inflation to keep pace with when it comes to farming your own housing mats. I farm mats to sell, but I'm still collecting about the same amount of mats in the same amount of time as I was years ago. You may not be able to keep pace with gold inflation if you refuse to sell to other players, but you can still get every tradeable item for the same amount of time spent farming as ever thus avoiding the whole gold inflation issue!

Farming your own items may not be the alternative you like, but it's a viable method - after all, that's exactly what the sellers are doing. That's how we make our gold.

(And if you feel like farming takes too much time and thus you are pushed to the Crown Store to get items in a timely fashion, that's a feature of the way ZOS monetizes Housing. MMOs are time sinks to begin with, and Housing is a very monetized time sink.)


You can ask for an Auction House all you like. I'm not gonna convince you otherwise.

I do think that players refusing to engage in ESO's trading system, then complaining that they neither want to farm items for themselves nor have the gold to purchase from the players who did farm, is a self-inflicted problem rather than a pervasive one.

Well I left the game, so you're right that I don't agree with you.

But the farming point too often here gets cast as players being lazy, or met with surreal points like "all you need to do is run 18 characters and play the game 5 hours per day", as if that's remotely normal. (It's because of points like those that I will on occasion remind people that the habits of players here are often very far removed from the average player.)

Housing is one of the most imbalanced areas of the game. And you could farm a hell of a long time and still get absolutely nowhere. It's not laziness (whatever that means in the context of an electronic entertainment). It's that when you can only get one ivory clasp or whatever per day without literally running a fully populated zoo of characters, you are going to want to get into the player economy.

Much of the problem with these discussions is that they get played out in isolation. So people look at whether they want an auction house / store / whatever.

But it's hard to discuss the point without looking also at how guild traders connect with things like housing and the crown store. Add them all together and take solo players and you have a system that is a truly offensive grind to play, with the only escape the crown store.

Sure, the farming point can be cast as players being lazy. Personally, I figure that when players complain about the price of cornflower or heartwood (examples taken from the last inflation threads I participated in), the least they can do is spend some time farming their own materials if they don't want to pay me to farm the materials for them.

I mean, I'm running around Craglorn and the Hollow City chopping wood and picking flowers. They can do the exact same thing. Are they lazy if they don't want to spend their time farming? No, but I also don't want to hear them complaining about my prices.


As I noted, housing is very monetized, and that includes some ridiculous grinds for furnishing recipes and ingredients. Even from the beginning, ZOS wanted it to be a lengthy process. That's a deliberate choice by ZOS.

But I see your point about discussing this in isolation, rather than examining how the guild trader economy is connected to all the other game systems. I think there's more than one aspect to isolation though.

I'm not an isolated, solo player; I'm currently in one trading guild that meets my modest needs and I'll farm for an hour when I need more gold for something I want. Last time I tracked my Craglorn loops before the current inflation spike, it was around 100k gold in sales for an hour run, so I'm not spending unreasonable amounts of time farming. So I'm able to furnish my houses over time because I'm willing to farm materials to sell, which allows me to buy the rarer furnishings I want without doing the really time-intensive grinds or buying non-exclusives from the Crown Stores.

Players who isolate themselves by refusing to engage in ESO's trading system are going to have a tougher time with time-intensive activities than players who don't...because they've isolated themselves and are refusing to join guilds.

I dunno. I'm an introverted player who's had good luck finding low maintenance trading guilds. So maybe I don't understand the appeal of isolating oneself from the guild trader economy, and then complaining about the inevitable results.

Well I think this is just it. Some players simply will not join guilds. It's not even a question of understanding it. That's where they are.

And such players are not unique to ESO -- far from it. But of the major MMOs around at the moment, I think, though I might be wrong, that ESO is the ONLY MMO that gates selling behind guild membership. (As I and others have said, spamming zone chat isn't really a credible answer to this.)

Which, given that it's the MMO that is most consciously marketed as solo player friendly, is one of the most baffling aspects of the game (I mean, half their player base at the outset must have been people just waiting for Elder Scrolls 6!).

VaranisArano

Northwold wrote: »

I also don't think it's very productive to say that "MMOs are time sinks" as a reason for never changing anything. Yes they are. But at a certain point if that becomes so devoid of entertainment value that there's no point playing them, then the balance has gone wrong. They're games; you're supposed to get something back from the time sink. And indeed, if you're a housing player so at the bare minimum paying for ESO+ (if you haven't also spent pretty staggering sums on houses themselves), from your money.

You added this after I'd started my response, so I didn't want to ignore it completely.

MMOs are time sinks, and one of the aspects of monetization is so that players who don't want to spend the time will spend the money to skip it. That includes players for whom doing the grind is devoid of entertainment. ESO has lots of opportunities for "pay to skip the grind". Event tickets, Crown Store motifs, skill lines, skyshards...it's a feature of monetization, not a bug.

Please note I'm not saying it's a good thing for players. The monetization of player inconvenience is a bad thing for players who want this to be a game where they always have fun. So by all means, advocate for changes if you like.

I'm just saying that monetization is a good thing for ZOS' pocketbook, which makes it an uphill battle akin to Sisiphus'. Whether players use the Housing time sink to farm materials or simply pay upfront to avoid the worst grinds, Housing is really profitable for ZOS.


This is getting a little far afield of the guild trader debate though. Sorry.

VaranisArano

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Khami wrote: »

SWTOR is down to two servers for NA.

GTN is the AH there. Prices are so high, a new player could never buy anything on it. I was shocked when I saw how expensive everything is on it. Nothing remotely affordable for a returning player who had 5 million credits.



I've been able to buy new races on GTN in the past, no where near the cost of one today. I ended up using the cartel coins I had because 600 of those was easier and faster to get, even in game than making 300 million credits.

This is what will happen if you put everything in a central location aka the AH. Prices will go through the roof and stay there.

Also like to add, prices were lower on GTN when SWTOR had PvE servers, PvP servers, and RP servers, meaning more than two they have today.

Part of the issue, though, with the present guild trader setup is that they are GUILD traders. Even just allowing non guild member players to access the traders to sell, or creating standalone traders at various locations specifically for non-guild member traders to sell in, with limitations so that guild fans would not cry blue murder, would help.

There is a fixed subset of the player base *who will not join a guild*. That is a red line for them, whether you agree with it or not. And those players, apart from spamming zone chat (which as a solution is simply a joke) *can't sell anything*. So they can't keep pace with inflation in the player economy.

To some extent, it wouldn't matter if all prices started hitting the tens of millions *if all players had an equal ability to plug themselves into the player economy and so could keep pace with inflation*.

If players refuse to join a guild, they can always farm the items themselves. Everything that's available on a guild trader can be farmed.

The only real benefit to trading is that you can focus on the gold-making activities you like so you can buy tradeable rewards from activities you don't like. I'd rather farm crafting mats than hunt for particular motifs, while other players prefer to hunt motifs so they don't have to farm their cornflower. Together, we make gold off trading each other what we want. It's convenient, not necessity. I could spend my time farming motifs. They could spend their time farming cornflower.

Being a player who *will not join a guild* is a choice.

Indeed it is a choice. That doesn't actually add much to the debate. A subset of players do not want to play that way. It is also not realistic to say, if for instance you do housing, that you can farm everything. You can, but filling 700 slots by crafting would take you several years, so it just looks like being forcibly pushed to the crown store.

Not everyone plays this game the same way and likes the same things in it. And systems that may seem balanced to a player with X tastes may feel wildly unbalanced to a player with Y tastes. If the feel goes sufficiently out of line with what players find enjoyable to play, then they just leave.

"The game is fine you're playing it wrong", strangely, was not an argument deployed in abundance here over AWA, which was a subject that DID touch a nerve with the types of player on this forum. Other types of players also exist, to whom other game systems are problematic.

I don't think the argument that all players don't have the equal ability to plug themselves into the economy and thus can't keep pace with inflation is accurate. Every player who wants to can find a trading guild to join; refusing to is not the same as lacking the ability to do so.

Moreover when it comes to keeping pace with inflation, all players either spend their time farming the items they want or the gold to buy them.

Even players who refuse to join guilds can farm the items they want. There's no inflation to keep pace with when it comes to farming your own housing mats. I farm mats to sell, but I'm still collecting about the same amount of mats in the same amount of time as I was years ago. You may not be able to keep pace with gold inflation if you refuse to sell to other players, but you can still get every tradeable item for the same amount of time spent farming as ever thus avoiding the whole gold inflation issue!

Farming your own items may not be the alternative you like, but it's a viable method - after all, that's exactly what the sellers are doing. That's how we make our gold.

(And if you feel like farming takes too much time and thus you are pushed to the Crown Store to get items in a timely fashion, that's a feature of the way ZOS monetizes Housing. MMOs are time sinks to begin with, and Housing is a very monetized time sink.)


You can ask for an Auction House all you like. I'm not gonna convince you otherwise.

I do think that players refusing to engage in ESO's trading system, then complaining that they neither want to farm items for themselves nor have the gold to purchase from the players who did farm, is a self-inflicted problem rather than a pervasive one.

Well I left the game, so you're right that I don't agree with you.

But the farming point too often here gets cast as players being lazy, or met with surreal points like "all you need to do is run 18 characters and play the game 5 hours per day", as if that's remotely normal. (It's because of points like those that I will on occasion remind people that the habits of players here are often very far removed from the average player.)

Housing is one of the most imbalanced areas of the game. And you could farm a hell of a long time and still get absolutely nowhere. It's not laziness (whatever that means in the context of an electronic entertainment). It's that when you can only get one ivory clasp or whatever per day without literally running a fully populated zoo of characters, you are going to want to get into the player economy.

Much of the problem with these discussions is that they get played out in isolation. So people look at whether they want an auction house / store / whatever.

But it's hard to discuss the point without looking also at how guild traders connect with things like housing and the crown store. Add them all together and take solo players and you have a system that is a truly offensive grind to play, with the only escape the crown store.

Sure, the farming point can be cast as players being lazy. Personally, I figure that when players complain about the price of cornflower or heartwood (examples taken from the last inflation threads I participated in), the least they can do is spend some time farming their own materials if they don't want to pay me to farm the materials for them.

I mean, I'm running around Craglorn and the Hollow City chopping wood and picking flowers. They can do the exact same thing. Are they lazy if they don't want to spend their time farming? No, but I also don't want to hear them complaining about my prices.


As I noted, housing is very monetized, and that includes some ridiculous grinds for furnishing recipes and ingredients. Even from the beginning, ZOS wanted it to be a lengthy process. That's a deliberate choice by ZOS.

But I see your point about discussing this in isolation, rather than examining how the guild trader economy is connected to all the other game systems. I think there's more than one aspect to isolation though.

I'm not an isolated, solo player; I'm currently in one trading guild that meets my modest needs and I'll farm for an hour when I need more gold for something I want. Last time I tracked my Craglorn loops before the current inflation spike, it was around 100k gold in sales for an hour run, so I'm not spending unreasonable amounts of time farming. So I'm able to furnish my houses over time because I'm willing to farm materials to sell, which allows me to buy the rarer furnishings I want without doing the really time-intensive grinds or buying non-exclusives from the Crown Stores.

Players who isolate themselves by refusing to engage in ESO's trading system are going to have a tougher time with time-intensive activities than players who don't...because they've isolated themselves and are refusing to join guilds.

I dunno. I'm an introverted player who's had good luck finding low maintenance trading guilds. So maybe I don't understand the appeal of isolating oneself from the guild trader economy, and then complaining about the inevitable results.

Well I think this is just it. Some players simply will not join guilds. It's not even a question of understanding it. That's where they are.

And such players are not unique to ESO -- far from it. But of the major MMOs around at the moment, I think, though I might be wrong, that ESO is the ONLY MMO that gates selling behind guild membership. (As I and others have said, spamming zone chat isn't really a credible answer to this.)

Which, given that it's the MMO that is most consciously marketed as solo player friendly, is one of the most baffling aspects of the game (I mean, half their player base at the outset must have been people just waiting for Elder Scrolls 6!).

I was one of those Skyrim players who came to play ESO with only my IRL friends at first. ESO was my first MMO.

I dunno if the marketing is focused more on the overland questing experience? Beyond that, I've found that ESO really does require interacting with other players if you want to experience the whole game. That's how I got hooked on the MMO experience: group activities I couldn't do with just my few friends.

Northwold

VaranisArano wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

I also don't think it's very productive to say that "MMOs are time sinks" as a reason for never changing anything. Yes they are. But at a certain point if that becomes so devoid of entertainment value that there's no point playing them, then the balance has gone wrong. They're games; you're supposed to get something back from the time sink. And indeed, if you're a housing player so at the bare minimum paying for ESO+ (if you haven't also spent pretty staggering sums on houses themselves), from your money.

You added this after I'd started my response, so I didn't want to ignore it completely.

MMOs are time sinks, and one of the aspects of monetization is so that players who don't want to spend the time will spend the money to skip it. That includes players for whom doing the grind is devoid of entertainment. ESO has lots of opportunities for "pay to skip the grind". Event tickets, Crown Store motifs, skill lines, skyshards...it's a feature of monetization, not a bug.

Please note I'm not saying it's a good thing for players. The monetization of player inconvenience is a bad thing for players who want this to be a game where they always have fun. So by all means, advocate for changes if you like.

I'm just saying that monetization is a good thing for ZOS' pocketbook, which makes it an uphill battle akin to Sisiphus'. Whether players use the Housing time sink to farm materials or simply pay upfront to avoid the worst grinds, Housing is really profitable for ZOS.


This is getting a little far afield of the guild trader debate though. Sorry.

I mean, ultimately, it is quite connected to the guild trader debate which is why I made the point that looking at things like auction houses in isolation doesn't necessarily help discussion. And I agree with you. The issue is when monetisation via insane grind becomes so aggressive that players feel like a walking chequebook for ZOS and walk out -- which is what I did when I saw the Fargrave furnishing requirements. At that point, if enough players get fed up, far from enhancing earnings, ZOS are losing their meal ticket.

The auction house / non gated traders (i actually wouldn't mind the latter -- dedicated traders with restrictions for non guild players) issue really comes to the fore when you look at the impact it has on other parts of the game for those players who do not sell via guilds. And they're not a tiny number of players.

It's very easy to see that impact with the housing stuff: if you don't connect to the player economy the time requirements to obtain the materials yourself are an order of magnitude more onerous than they should be and it looks transparently like a push for the crown store.

For players who sell in guilds, an auction house is "just" the ability to find goods centrally. For pure solo players it would change completely the balance of the game.

(Nice to have a sensible discussion, BTW.)

FlopsyPrince

redspecter23 wrote: »

If it happens, I'd be fine with it, but understand the gold sink that is currently being tossed to trader bids each week would either have a massive inflation effect on the market or it would be incorporated into the new global auction with higher listing fees. One thing that tends to be forgotten about the current system is that it removes some amount of gold from the economy weekly that a global auction wouldn't do without some other gold sink added.

Having a gold sink make life so difficult for most players is the root problem no supporters of how it is now address.

FlopsyPrince

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

No one is forced to use the guild traders to preform transactions, its just easier and safer to do it that way

That is a meaningless argument used in favor of so many detrimental things in the game.

You can avoid ALL trading if you wish and still play ESO just fine, as there are very few recurring in game activities that require a major gold investment that can't be avoided.

You cannot outfit a brand new CP160 character in an efficient fashion with non-crafted gear without using traders.

Technically the latter point may not be 100% true, but it is true for most of the cases and thus a valid statement. Most cannot farm everything they use.

The problem with the current system is both how hard it is to find what you need and to sell what you have. This is especially true on consoles, but even impacts those with addons on the PC. It is a truly horrible "hidden information" system that will probably be with us for the life of the game.

Marginis

Eh.

I'm rather not make it easier for a small group of people to manipulate the market and break the in-game economy. The guild trader system is a relatively inventive way to reduce market abuse.

wolfie1.0.

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

wolfie1.0. wrote: »

No one is forced to use the guild traders to preform transactions, its just easier and safer to do it that way

That is a meaningless argument used in favor of so many detrimental things in the game.

You can avoid ALL trading if you wish and still play ESO just fine, as there are very few recurring in game activities that require a major gold investment that can't be avoided.

You cannot outfit a brand new CP160 character in an efficient fashion with non-crafted gear without using traders.

Technically the latter point may not be 100% true, but it is true for most of the cases and thus a valid statement. Most cannot farm everything they use.

The problem with the current system is both how hard it is to find what you need and to sell what you have. This is especially true on consoles, but even impacts those with addons on the PC. It is a truly horrible "hidden information" system that will probably be with us for the life of the game.

Can you elaborate on why the first argument I made is meaningless? Which part of it? I am genuinely curious. To me it feels valid since you can trade with others directly, via in game mail and even join trading discords to facilitate. Other options do exist for obtaining items you need, they just require a bit more effort and trust.

For the second point. If we take a brand new account that just reached cp 160 it is actually not very likely that they would have the resources to enter the market as a seller or a buyer. That said they can still avoid the trader.

Crafted sets are unlocked with research, and you can find other players that will craft stuff for you. Overland sets are easy to get. Mythics are a solo activity. With sticker book all you really need for any non crafted set is transmute stones (non tradeable) and improvement items which can be farmed.

I concede your last points. It can be hard to buy and sell stuff in eso, especially as a newer player and if you have no idea about how the game works. It blew my mind when i started playing that refined mats are valued less than raw mats but then i learned about how improvement items are obtained.

ZOS'S way of explaining how things work is as clear as mud. It took me forever to find out how crit % was calculated and what the max crit rating you needed to hit 100% was. And why they chose such a random number I still don't understand. Also, I tire of having to explain to new players why gear stops at 160. And other changes over the years. They have gotten better with some things and worse with others.

I just don't see how zos could make a change like this without major impacts to gameplay.

Amottica

Northwold wrote: »

Khami wrote: »

SWTOR is down to two servers for NA.

GTN is the AH there. Prices are so high, a new player could never buy anything on it. I was shocked when I saw how expensive everything is on it. Nothing remotely affordable for a returning player who had 5 million credits.



I've been able to buy new races on GTN in the past, no where near the cost of one today. I ended up using the cartel coins I had because 600 of those was easier and faster to get, even in game than making 300 million credits.

This is what will happen if you put everything in a central location aka the AH. Prices will go through the roof and stay there.

Also like to add, prices were lower on GTN when SWTOR had PvE servers, PvP servers, and RP servers, meaning more than two they have today.

Part of the issue, though, with the present guild trader setup is that they are GUILD traders. Even just allowing non guild member players to access the traders to sell, or creating standalone traders at various locations specifically for non-guild member traders to sell in, with limitations so that guild fans would not cry blue murder, would help.

There is a fixed subset of the player base *who will not join a guild*. That is a red line for them, whether you agree with it or not. And those players, apart from spamming zone chat (which as a solution is simply a joke) *can't sell anything*. So they can't keep pace with inflation in the player economy.

To some extent, it wouldn't matter if all prices started hitting the tens of millions *if all players had an equal ability to plug themselves into the player economy and so could keep pace with inflation*.

This is not an issue. I am in a social guild that often has a trader for cheap. I sell through that trader easily without having a guild that is specifically a trading guild. With five guilds there is plenty of space to have a guild that gets a trader. No reason not to.

proprio.meb16_ESO

JB_den wrote: »

[snip]

The no votes are from people who thinks there's absolutely no need of any such thing as a global auction house, and the actual system works well enough... is it so weird?

[edited to remove quote]

newtinmpls

My no vote is from hearing horror stories about how in a GAH the quick players buy up crap and resell it at high prices.

Probably some of that happens now. I don't want it to be worse.

MasterSpatula

No, but something has to change. The outrageous prices of traders has a ripple effect that does real harm, particularly to the newest and poorest players.

Northwold

Amottica wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Khami wrote: »

SWTOR is down to two servers for NA.

GTN is the AH there. Prices are so high, a new player could never buy anything on it. I was shocked when I saw how expensive everything is on it. Nothing remotely affordable for a returning player who had 5 million credits.



I've been able to buy new races on GTN in the past, no where near the cost of one today. I ended up using the cartel coins I had because 600 of those was easier and faster to get, even in game than making 300 million credits.

This is what will happen if you put everything in a central location aka the AH. Prices will go through the roof and stay there.

Also like to add, prices were lower on GTN when SWTOR had PvE servers, PvP servers, and RP servers, meaning more than two they have today.

Part of the issue, though, with the present guild trader setup is that they are GUILD traders. Even just allowing non guild member players to access the traders to sell, or creating standalone traders at various locations specifically for non-guild member traders to sell in, with limitations so that guild fans would not cry blue murder, would help.

There is a fixed subset of the player base *who will not join a guild*. That is a red line for them, whether you agree with it or not. And those players, apart from spamming zone chat (which as a solution is simply a joke) *can't sell anything*. So they can't keep pace with inflation in the player economy.

To some extent, it wouldn't matter if all prices started hitting the tens of millions *if all players had an equal ability to plug themselves into the player economy and so could keep pace with inflation*.

This is not an issue. I am in a social guild that often has a trader for cheap. I sell through that trader easily without having a guild that is specifically a trading guild. With five guilds there is plenty of space to have a guild that gets a trader. No reason not to.

What do you mean "this is not an issue"? Players who will not join guilds are not an issue because you have joined guilds?

Arthtur

I will never understand this "problem". In every MMO the basic way of making money is trading with other players. If somebody doesnt want to take part in this - its their decision to make their life harder.
Nobody is gatekeeping anything. U need to join guild? Well, u can just join one and then turn the chat off. Now u can treat this guild as any other NPC guild. Well maybe except quests. We dont have those.
Ah right. Those bad "donations" every week. Greedy GMs want to steal from poor players. Funny thing - im in 2 trade guilds right now. 1 has weekly dues at 15k (or 300k sales). The 2 doesnt have dues BUT they ask for donations. And there are ppl paying over 50k every week... While they could get a guild with trader in Mournhold for over a month...
So yeah rly scary.
Im sorry for not being nice but i saw a NEW player joining the guild with weekly dues and he didnt had any problems with paying them. Not only that, he didnt had any problems with MAKING gold after he got some tips from ppl.

If there would be a problem to get a guild with trader then maybe i could understand that "gatekeeping" but... Trading guilds are recruting 24/7. And its not like u have to talk or anything... U can just turn the chat off and trade...

Im not gonna talk about what ZOS said or about ppl who play only because of trading in this game or how bad it would be for ingame economy.

Well, have fun.

Gaeliannas

Northwold wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Khami wrote: »

SWTOR is down to two servers for NA.

GTN is the AH there. Prices are so high, a new player could never buy anything on it. I was shocked when I saw how expensive everything is on it. Nothing remotely affordable for a returning player who had 5 million credits.



I've been able to buy new races on GTN in the past, no where near the cost of one today. I ended up using the cartel coins I had because 600 of those was easier and faster to get, even in game than making 300 million credits.

This is what will happen if you put everything in a central location aka the AH. Prices will go through the roof and stay there.

Also like to add, prices were lower on GTN when SWTOR had PvE servers, PvP servers, and RP servers, meaning more than two they have today.

Part of the issue, though, with the present guild trader setup is that they are GUILD traders. Even just allowing non guild member players to access the traders to sell, or creating standalone traders at various locations specifically for non-guild member traders to sell in, with limitations so that guild fans would not cry blue murder, would help.

There is a fixed subset of the player base *who will not join a guild*. That is a red line for them, whether you agree with it or not. And those players, apart from spamming zone chat (which as a solution is simply a joke) *can't sell anything*. So they can't keep pace with inflation in the player economy.

To some extent, it wouldn't matter if all prices started hitting the tens of millions *if all players had an equal ability to plug themselves into the player economy and so could keep pace with inflation*.

This is not an issue. I am in a social guild that often has a trader for cheap. I sell through that trader easily without having a guild that is specifically a trading guild. With five guilds there is plenty of space to have a guild that gets a trader. No reason not to.

What do you mean "this is not an issue"? Players who will not join guilds are not an issue because you have joined guilds?

If someone chooses to not join a guild, that is a personal issue and not something that needs "solved". I am in a guild of 400-500 and 60% of them never say a word and just go about their business, most use the free guild trader. I would guess they don't even have guild chat enabled, because they prefer a solo experience. So basically, there is zero reason to not join a guild with a trader, even if you don't want to socialize.

Guilds in ESO are not like other games where you have to commit, you get 5 here and most have few to no requirements. My guild which has had a trader for over two years now just lowered their dues from 4K/mo to zero. Even at 4k, really... that is like less than one crafting daily, a month!

Ilumia

wenchmore420b14_ESO wrote: »

Drammanoth wrote: »

Here we go again...

I've been waiting to dust this off!
Huzzah!

Well the horse isn't dead yet - it's still twitching - apparently

Mayrael

Nope. It was discussed for years now. End of the story.

Number_51

This poll went about the same direction as all the tri-weekly AwA polls went in the first 6 years of the game. Keep posting those polls and wear down the naysayers... we'll have an Auction Horse before you know it.

Norgh

Coming to a Crown store soon your own personal trader set it up anywhere and your fill the slots and off you go.

VaranisArano

Norgh wrote: »

Coming to a Crown store soon your own personal trader set it up anywhere and your fill the slots and off you go.

Can you imagine? Give everyone the opportunity to sell items without joining a guild, but it won't matter because no one spends the time to check hundreds of individual traders with 30 item slots.

That's some prime "be careful what you wish for."

JKorr

proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

JB_den wrote: »

[snip]

The no votes are from people who thinks there's absolutely no need of any such thing as a global auction house, and the actual system works well enough... is it so weird?

:shhhh: There's this giant cartel, see, and everyone in the game who does any trading at all is actually part of it. The Illuminati ain't got *nothin* on the many many no dues/no fee/no sale requirement Super Secret Shadow Mega-Cartel. /sarcasm

No matter how many times its pointed out that many guilds who don't charge dues, fees or sales quotas and don't consider themselves "trading" guilds get a trader so many people have the opportunity to trade if they wish it is much easier for some people to insist there is a giant conspiracy/cartel that doesn't want the guild trader system to change. I belong to 5 guilds atm; 1 that is actually a "trading" guild-no fees/dues/sales, 4 that are social guilds-no fees/dues/sales. Three of those 4 have a trader. So that is 120 slots I could use if I was actually ambitious enough to do so. The one guild that doesn't have a trader doesn't want one because not too many members want to bother with trading; the guild store is enough. No gm tells me I have to list items at a certain price; no one will stop me if I list a chromium plating for 50 gold. Shouldn't "cartels" have a little more control over low-balling prices? I use MM to get ballpark prices, usually making my stuff a little lower than current rate to sell faster.

By the way, there are no signed in blood contracts that say "YOU MAY NEVER EVER EVER LEAVE THIS GUILD FOR ANY REASON, INCLUDING DEATH", so joining a guild or two that have traders, selling all the items you want to sell and then, [ready for this really shocking idea] dropping the guilds can be a thing. There are a lot of guilds with no dues or fees or sales requirements, use that to your advantage.

[edited to remove quote]

whitecrow

No, I prefer having set prices for items.

mocap

obviously console players will say yes, pc players will say mostly no

fizl101

mocap wrote: »

obviously console players will say yes, pc players will say mostly no

Not really, quite a few console players are happy with the existing mechanism

jaws343

fizl101 wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

obviously console players will say yes, pc players will say mostly no

Not really, quite a few console players are happy with the existing mechanism

Yeah on console, I greatly prefer a more separated market (as it is now), where players can't just camp a single stall to buy out everything that gets posted undervalued immediately.

Number_51

Console player here, and definitely in the no camp. Even before searching in the guild stores was a thing, I didn't mind running around looking for items. Now, with the ability to search for specific items, you can hit every location in the game with 4 or 5 traders, in around an hour.

proprio.meb16_ESO

JKorr wrote: »

proprio.meb16_ESO wrote: »

JB_den wrote: »

[snip]

The no votes are from people who thinks there's absolutely no need of any such thing as a global auction house, and the actual system works well enough... is it so weird?

:shhhh: There's this giant cartel, see, and everyone in the game who does any trading at all is actually part of it. The Illuminati ain't got *nothin* on the many many no dues/no fee/no sale requirement Super Secret Shadow Mega-Cartel. /sarcasm

No matter how many times its pointed out that many guilds who don't charge dues, fees or sales quotas and don't consider themselves "trading" guilds get a trader so many people have the opportunity to trade if they wish it is much easier for some people to insist there is a giant conspiracy/cartel that doesn't want the guild trader system to change. I belong to 5 guilds atm; 1 that is actually a "trading" guild-no fees/dues/sales, 4 that are social guilds-no fees/dues/sales. Three of those 4 have a trader. So that is 120 slots I could use if I was actually ambitious enough to do so. The one guild that doesn't have a trader doesn't want one because not too many members want to bother with trading; the guild store is enough. No gm tells me I have to list items at a certain price; no one will stop me if I list a chromium plating for 50 gold. Shouldn't "cartels" have a little more control over low-balling prices? I use MM to get ballpark prices, usually making my stuff a little lower than current rate to sell faster.

By the way, there are no signed in blood contracts that say "YOU MAY NEVER EVER EVER LEAVE THIS GUILD FOR ANY REASON, INCLUDING DEATH", so joining a guild or two that have traders, selling all the items you want to sell and then, [ready for this really shocking idea] dropping the guilds can be a thing. There are a lot of guilds with no dues or fees or sales requirements, use that to your advantage.

Damn you just blew my cover man!

[edited to remove quote]

wolfie1.0.

MasterSpatula wrote: »

No, but something has to change. The outrageous prices of traders has a ripple effect that does real harm, particularly to the newest and poorest players.

The prices are only outrageous because your comparing them to a previous market meta that no longer exists and is limited to only portions of the overall economy. If it were truly outrageous then the chicken breast food recipe would still be selling for more than 10k gold.

VaranisArano wrote: »

Norgh wrote: »

Coming to a Crown store soon your own personal trader set it up anywhere and your fill the slots and off you go.

Can you imagine? Give everyone the opportunity to sell items without joining a guild, but it won't matter because no one spends the time to check hundreds of individual traders with 30 item slots.

That's some prime "be careful what you wish for."

All you need is 50 accounts you own and then you can buy your own personal trader...

wolfie1.0.

fizl101 wrote: »

mocap wrote: »

obviously console players will say yes, pc players will say mostly no

Not really, quite a few console players are happy with the existing mechanism

Quite a few on PC say no as well