Do you want ESO's guild trader system to be reworked to a global auction house?

deleted221205-002626 · April 2022

Tandor wrote: »

Yes, and I expect it to happen after the significant number who wanted account-wide-achievements got their wish granted !

Actually, I'd settle quite happily for a modification of the present system to allow a small number of items to be listed direct with the NPC at the Guild Traders without the need for guild membership - at a higher commission to be received by the guilds at those locations.

I kind of agree with this. There should be a limited even if only 5-10 item limit anyone guildless can sell somehow. I do like the unique current system and how it curbs trader bots a bit at least but it also creates a scenario where guilds view/treat theyre members like trash with a "put out or get out" attitude and its pretty common across the board since theyre in complete control not the players or individual. I suppose as a group the players have power but thats difficult to pull off as they SNIP/BOOT you right away at the 1st sign of irritation with them to avoid any sort of union scenario

colossalvoids · April 2022

No, see no point in such a time waste.

everseeing_njpreub18_ESO · April 2022

I'm certain the way it is is a gold sink on top of other reasons, but from my PoV i have never liked the separate auction houses. Trying to find a certain item and having to run to 100 spots is a pain, if there wasn't a mod like TTC it would be just horrible.

</opinion>

VaranisArano · April 2022

sinnereso wrote: »

Tandor wrote: »

Yes, and I expect it to happen after the significant number who wanted account-wide-achievements got their wish granted !

Actually, I'd settle quite happily for a modification of the present system to allow a small number of items to be listed direct with the NPC at the Guild Traders without the need for guild membership - at a higher commission to be received by the guilds at those locations.

I kind of agree with this. There should be a limited even if only 5-10 item limit anyone guildless can sell somehow. I do like the unique current system and how it curbs trader bots a bit at least but it also creates a scenario where guilds view/treat theyre members like trash with a "put out or get out" attitude and its pretty common across the board since theyre in complete control not the players or individual. I suppose as a group the players have power but thats difficult to pull off as they SNIP/BOOT you right away at the 1st sign of irritation with them to avoid any sort of union scenario

One of the things with the "put out or get out" is that lots of trading guilds are always recruiting.

If the guild isn't working out (and bad guild leadership is a NOPE from me), then it's pretty easy to leave and find a new place to sell.

This may not be applicable to you,, so feel free to ignore it, but my general advice for finding a suitable trading guild is:

1. Have items in mind that you can regularly get to trade. Unlike an auction house where you can dump your trash and forget it, trading guild players benefit from having a regular supply of items that are desirable to other players. (Crafting mats are readily accessible to new players and desirable to buyers.)

2. Figure out how much you can sustainably sell in a week, and chose a guild with requirements that fit. The goal is to have a guild where you can play normally and still meet the weekly sales or donation requirements profitably. If I had to stress ro meet the goal, that was a sign that this wasn't a good fit for my playstyle.

3. There's nothing wrong with the mercenary approach of joining a trading guild for a bit, dumping your goods onto the market, and then leaving once you've sold your stuff. You and the guild both make a quick profit from that, assuming that you are selling worthwhile stuff and not just trying to clear the ol' inventory of stuff that other players don't want.

4. Figure out what level of participation in a guild you are comfortable with. I join Trading Guilds to sell my stuff, not to socialize in chat or run dungeons with folks. So all I really want from a guild is that they let me sell my stuff and otherwise leave me alone.

For what that's worth, that's what's helped me have a good experience with most of my trading guilds or to leave and find a new one when it wasn't a positive experience anymore.

Mythgard1967 · April 2022

Gaeliannas wrote: »

All games should just emulate the original Everquest, where we all just stand around in a tunnel shouting out what we are looking to trade and for what. Or version 2, where you went to a special plane and set your character afk for the night selling your wares among the rows of other afk players. It was actually pretty cool browsing everyone's stuff, you got to know who farmed what and where you had a good chance of finding what you needed.

As for auction houses, first off, who wants to bid on items ever? If I am looking for something, I need it right now, not a week from now when the auction for it ends. Then there are the global vendors where everyone lists their stuff, and have yet to see one of those work properly, there are always an army of bots competing with each other to snap up every under priced item and relisting them above market value.

Then there is BDO, at least the last time I checked, which is a global system, but the game sets the price on every item and your listing just goes in a queue to be sold when your turn comes up. No undercutting, no cash right now, just list and wait. Oh, and so their system doesn't get abused, you also can't trade directly with anyone, you have to use the vendor. So playing with friends and something drops you or they need, sorry charlie, you can't even give it to them, nor they you.

The system here is actually a lot like Everquest v2, except instead of everyone having their own vendor, you share it with ~500 other players.

Ahhh East Commons......WTS Prenerf Circlet of Shadow!

Don't forget the thoroughly disasterous original D3 model...selling items for real money through a game interface. Now THAT was a dumpster fire.

propertyOfUndefined · April 2022

I love having to shop around for the best deals. I think it adds a lot to immersion.

Lumenn · April 2022

I've always been for it, simply because as I said before, any system is subject to manipulation and current system can be inconvenient for console. Plus despite my decades in retail management (or perhaps BECAUSE of it) I don't like the idea of "gatekeepers". The only way to sell is through a trader. The only realistic way of getting a trader is through a guild. Over the years I've seen some good ones, and I've seen some greedy ones, but you must join and obey/donate/pay or all three, to be in the CLUB to access the market and for me PERSONALLY (again maybe due to my decades) it's just not a subset of the game I was interested enough to "be a good boy and do as you're told or you can't trade". Anything I've bothered to sell has been in zone chat(I played EQ back then 😉) it should be open to all. Seriously it can be worse than an Home Owners Association.

MY question to everyone, a bit different, is this. To all the PC people nay saying this. (And I play both so I see both sides)Considering the recent discussion on add ons being cheating/invasive in pvp, what if Zos DID for some reason disable all add ons? Assume it's actually possible and they actually were SERIOUS about it(a scenario I doubt will EVER come to be for various reasons, but let play pretend) so now PC is stuck with the same system as console has. Slow, frustrating, you can spend hours and what you're looking for isn't even selling. How many would change their mind? Just curious and thought I'd ask.

propertyOfUndefined · April 2022

I don’t use add-ons for guild traders, so I wouldn’t change my mind. I enjoy the experience of traveling from trader to trader across different zones. To me, it makes the world feel like a world. Just my 2 cents…

fizl101 · April 2022

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I don’t use add-ons for guild traders, so I wouldn’t change my mind. I enjoy the experience of traveling from trader to trader across different zones. To me, it makes the world feel like a world. Just my 2 cents…

I play on console and like the system as it is now, i compare it to going out to go shopping instead of going on Amazon

VaranisArano · April 2022

Lumenn wrote: »

I've always been for it, simply because as I said before, any system is subject to manipulation and current system can be inconvenient for console. Plus despite my decades in retail management (or perhaps BECAUSE of it) I don't like the idea of "gatekeepers". The only way to sell is through a trader. The only realistic way of getting a trader is through a guild. Over the years I've seen some good ones, and I've seen some greedy ones, but you must join and obey/donate/pay or all three, to be in the CLUB to access the market and for me PERSONALLY (again maybe due to my decades) it's just not a subset of the game I was interested enough to "be a good boy and do as you're told or you can't trade". Anything I've bothered to sell has been in zone chat(I played EQ back then 😉) it should be open to all. Seriously it can be worse than an Home Owners Association.

MY question to everyone, a bit different, is this. To all the PC people nay saying this. (And I play both so I see both sides)Considering the recent discussion on add ons being cheating/invasive in pvp, what if Zos DID for some reason disable all add ons? Assume it's actually possible and they actually were SERIOUS about it(a scenario I doubt will EVER come to be for various reasons, but let play pretend) so now PC is stuck with the same system as console has. Slow, frustrating, you can spend hours and what you're looking for isn't even selling. How many would change their mind? Just curious and thought I'd ask.

I learned to trade on PC without addons. Made some real rookie mistakes in the process, but it was a good learning experience. Because I'm lazy about updating my addons, these days I'm usually trading without Master Merchant and I've never really used TTC.

Here's how I sell items without addons:

I check my guild and go to the main hubs and write down the average prices for the crafting materials I'm selling. Since I'm selling stuff like raw ancestor silk and cornflower, I can usually figure out a solid price from the listings that will remain pretty steady for a while.

Then I list my items for a little under what I'm seeing in the major hubs. If it sells quickly, fantastic! I'll continue listing the item at that price. If it doesn't, I'll drop the price until I find where it does sell.

There's some time investment up front in order to figure out my initial prices, but once I've gotten some sales, the prices stay pretty consistent and profitable since crafting mats are always in demand. If I sold items that were less consistently in demand like gear, I'd probably have a harder time making quick sales.

As for buying, I go to the main hubs and a couple smaller hubs and text search for the item. If I don't find it, I don't find it. It usually doesn't take a huge amount of time to check five traders, move on to the next hub, check five traders again unless I've got a full shopping list of Missing motifs. That takes a while. (I don't know if Consoles have the text search option, but it's native on PC not an addon.)

So the short answer is that while some PC players who are very used to the convenience of addons might revolt if they were removed, I pretty much have the console experience with trading and I don't think it's that bad. If ZOS removed all addons, I would still prefer the Guild Trader system to an Auction House.

Lumenn · April 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

I've always been for it, simply because as I said before, any system is subject to manipulation and current system can be inconvenient for console. Plus despite my decades in retail management (or perhaps BECAUSE of it) I don't like the idea of "gatekeepers". The only way to sell is through a trader. The only realistic way of getting a trader is through a guild. Over the years I've seen some good ones, and I've seen some greedy ones, but you must join and obey/donate/pay or all three, to be in the CLUB to access the market and for me PERSONALLY (again maybe due to my decades) it's just not a subset of the game I was interested enough to "be a good boy and do as you're told or you can't trade". Anything I've bothered to sell has been in zone chat(I played EQ back then 😉) it should be open to all. Seriously it can be worse than an Home Owners Association.

MY question to everyone, a bit different, is this. To all the PC people nay saying this. (And I play both so I see both sides)Considering the recent discussion on add ons being cheating/invasive in pvp, what if Zos DID for some reason disable all add ons? Assume it's actually possible and they actually were SERIOUS about it(a scenario I doubt will EVER come to be for various reasons, but let play pretend) so now PC is stuck with the same system as console has. Slow, frustrating, you can spend hours and what you're looking for isn't even selling. How many would change their mind? Just curious and thought I'd ask.

I learned to trade on PC without addons. Made some real rookie mistakes in the process, but it was a good learning experience. Because I'm lazy about updating my addons, these days I'm usually trading without Master Merchant and I've never really used TTC.

Here's how I sell items without addons:

I check my guild and go to the main hubs and write down the average prices for the crafting materials I'm selling. Since I'm selling stuff like raw ancestor silk and cornflower, I can usually figure out a solid price from the listings that will remain pretty steady for a while.

Then I list my items for a little under what I'm seeing in the major hubs. If it sells quickly, fantastic! I'll continue listing the item at that price. If it doesn't, I'll drop the price until I find where it does sell.

There's some time investment up front in order to figure out my initial prices, but once I've gotten some sales, the prices stay pretty consistent and profitable since crafting mats are always in demand. If I sold items that were less consistently in demand like gear, I'd probably have a harder time making quick sales.

As for buying, I go to the main hubs and a couple smaller hubs and text search for the item. If I don't find it, I don't find it. It usually doesn't take a huge amount of time to check five traders, move on to the next hub, check five traders again unless I've got a full shopping list of Missing motifs. That takes a while. (I don't know if Consoles have the text search option, but it's native on PC not an addon.)

So the short answer is that while some PC players who are very used to the convenience of addons might revolt if they were removed, I pretty much have the console experience with trading and I don't think it's that bad. If ZOS removed all addons, I would still prefer the Guild Trader system to an Auction House.

Gave you an awesome. There's only been a very few times over the years I've had a rough time looking for something and that was usually a specific drop after RNG got to know me too well w/o buying me dinner first. Most times I'll hit the main hubs and /shrug if it's not there.

Khami · April 2022

SWTOR is down to two servers for NA.

GTN is the AH there. Prices are so high, a new player could never buy anything on it. I was shocked when I saw how expensive everything is on it. Nothing remotely affordable for a returning player who had 5 million credits.

I've been able to buy new races on GTN in the past, no where near the cost of one today. I ended up using the cartel coins I had because 600 of those was easier and faster to get, even in game than making 300 million credits.

This is what will happen if you put everything in a central location aka the AH. Prices will go through the roof and stay there.

Also like to add, prices were lower on GTN when SWTOR had PvE servers, PvP servers, and RP servers, meaning more than two they have today.

rpa · April 2022

winterscrolls229prerb18_ESO wrote: »

They should add an option so that the guild traders can choose to let randoms create listings on their ah for a fee.

Or an option to disable needing to type DESTROY.. kills me in a tiny way every other day.

Mark all unwanted items in inventory as junk, go to junk tab and press X to destroy all junk.

Khami · April 2022

Lumenn wrote: »

I've always been for it, simply because as I said before, any system is subject to manipulation and current system can be inconvenient for console. Plus despite my decades in retail management (or perhaps BECAUSE of it) I don't like the idea of "gatekeepers". The only way to sell is through a trader. The only realistic way of getting a trader is through a guild. Over the years I've seen some good ones, and I've seen some greedy ones, but you must join and obey/donate/pay or all three, to be in the CLUB to access the market and for me PERSONALLY (again maybe due to my decades) it's just not a subset of the game I was interested enough to "be a good boy and do as you're told or you can't trade". Anything I've bothered to sell has been in zone chat(I played EQ back then 😉) it should be open to all. Seriously it can be worse than an Home Owners Association.

MY question to everyone, a bit different, is this. To all the PC people nay saying this. (And I play both so I see both sides)Considering the recent discussion on add ons being cheating/invasive in pvp, what if Zos DID for some reason disable all add ons? Assume it's actually possible and they actually were SERIOUS about it(a scenario I doubt will EVER come to be for various reasons, but let play pretend) so now PC is stuck with the same system as console has. Slow, frustrating, you can spend hours and what you're looking for isn't even selling. How many would change their mind? Just curious and thought I'd ask.

WTS in zone chat is a thing and I see it daily. One does not need to be in a trade guild to sell. If you want to sell in volume, yes, it's easily done via a guild trader.

The game allows us to be in five guilds, even though that was a thing at launch and guild traders were not. It is a reason why you can join five different guilds.

Northwold · April 2022

Khami wrote: »

SWTOR is down to two servers for NA.

GTN is the AH there. Prices are so high, a new player could never buy anything on it. I was shocked when I saw how expensive everything is on it. Nothing remotely affordable for a returning player who had 5 million credits.

I've been able to buy new races on GTN in the past, no where near the cost of one today. I ended up using the cartel coins I had because 600 of those was easier and faster to get, even in game than making 300 million credits.

This is what will happen if you put everything in a central location aka the AH. Prices will go through the roof and stay there.

Also like to add, prices were lower on GTN when SWTOR had PvE servers, PvP servers, and RP servers, meaning more than two they have today.

Part of the issue, though, with the present guild trader setup is that they are GUILD traders. Even just allowing non guild member players to access the traders to sell, or creating standalone traders at various locations specifically for non-guild member traders to sell in, with limitations so that guild fans would not cry blue murder, would help.

There is a fixed subset of the player base *who will not join a guild*. That is a red line for them, whether you agree with it or not. And those players, apart from spamming zone chat (which as a solution is simply a joke) *can't sell anything*. So they can't keep pace with inflation in the player economy.

To some extent, it wouldn't matter if all prices started hitting the tens of millions *if all players had an equal ability to plug themselves into the player economy and so could keep pace with inflation*.

ShawnLaRock · April 2022

Northwold wrote: »

ShawnLaRock wrote: »

I want these forums to be reworked to disallow any more mind-numbing posts about this topic.

TTC already IS an auction house.

S.

I don't think this is a good idea. This forum already is populated by a self-selecting niche of the game's overall player base. I don't see how setting up banned topics around legitimate gameplay issues will do anything except render it an echo chamber, and thus a completely pointless forum for discussion.

On more mainstream forums like reddit and steam, the corollary would be banning people from complaining about AWA (something about which the majority of players really couldn't care less). Presumably people here would find that objectionable.

Uhh… I was being (clearly?) facetious - using similar language to the OPs thread title to illustrate how redundant and exhaustive it is to have this same topic brought up again and again - when it has been done in far more insightful and meaningful ways… all of which are available to read, if people would do a simple search of this forum, before cluttering it up with the same thing over and over and over again.

S.

Lumenn · April 2022

Khami wrote: »

Lumenn wrote: »

I've always been for it, simply because as I said before, any system is subject to manipulation and current system can be inconvenient for console. Plus despite my decades in retail management (or perhaps BECAUSE of it) I don't like the idea of "gatekeepers". The only way to sell is through a trader. The only realistic way of getting a trader is through a guild. Over the years I've seen some good ones, and I've seen some greedy ones, but you must join and obey/donate/pay or all three, to be in the CLUB to access the market and for me PERSONALLY (again maybe due to my decades) it's just not a subset of the game I was interested enough to "be a good boy and do as you're told or you can't trade". Anything I've bothered to sell has been in zone chat(I played EQ back then 😉) it should be open to all. Seriously it can be worse than an Home Owners Association.

MY question to everyone, a bit different, is this. To all the PC people nay saying this. (And I play both so I see both sides)Considering the recent discussion on add ons being cheating/invasive in pvp, what if Zos DID for some reason disable all add ons? Assume it's actually possible and they actually were SERIOUS about it(a scenario I doubt will EVER come to be for various reasons, but let play pretend) so now PC is stuck with the same system as console has. Slow, frustrating, you can spend hours and what you're looking for isn't even selling. How many would change their mind? Just curious and thought I'd ask.

WTS in zone chat is a thing and I see it daily. One does not need to be in a trade guild to sell. If you want to sell in volume, yes, it's easily done via a guild trader.

The game allows us to be in five guilds, even though that was a thing at launch and guild traders were not. It is a reason why you can join five different guilds.

I know it's long but if you read what you quoted I did say I have sold in zone chat. Not sure if you missed that part or are making some point my old brain isn't grasping.....

Ah, I think i see now. I suppose I should have said the only way to SERIOUSLY sell is through a trader(since that was the discussion I didn't think to add it)If you read that, and didn't bother reading the rest, then yes you could possibly get confused.

Freelancer_ESO · April 2022

Khami wrote: »

SWTOR is down to two servers for NA.

GTN is the AH there. Prices are so high, a new player could never buy anything on it. I was shocked when I saw how expensive everything is on it. Nothing remotely affordable for a returning player who had 5 million credits.

I've been able to buy new races on GTN in the past, no where near the cost of one today. I ended up using the cartel coins I had because 600 of those was easier and faster to get, even in game than making 300 million credits.

This is what will happen if you put everything in a central location aka the AH. Prices will go through the roof and stay there.

Also like to add, prices were lower on GTN when SWTOR had PvE servers, PvP servers, and RP servers, meaning more than two they have today.

If you want a long version of background on SWTOR's issues here's an interesting video on it:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjW01gmgN9Y

If you want the short oversimplified version: Some currency exploits were found and during an exploit every item in the game that was on the market was purchased. As a result, the supply of goods was wiped out overnight and the supply of currency went through the roof.

VaranisArano · April 2022

Northwold wrote: »

Khami wrote: »

SWTOR is down to two servers for NA.

GTN is the AH there. Prices are so high, a new player could never buy anything on it. I was shocked when I saw how expensive everything is on it. Nothing remotely affordable for a returning player who had 5 million credits.

I've been able to buy new races on GTN in the past, no where near the cost of one today. I ended up using the cartel coins I had because 600 of those was easier and faster to get, even in game than making 300 million credits.

This is what will happen if you put everything in a central location aka the AH. Prices will go through the roof and stay there.

Also like to add, prices were lower on GTN when SWTOR had PvE servers, PvP servers, and RP servers, meaning more than two they have today.

Part of the issue, though, with the present guild trader setup is that they are GUILD traders. Even just allowing non guild member players to access the traders to sell, or creating standalone traders at various locations specifically for non-guild member traders to sell in, with limitations so that guild fans would not cry blue murder, would help.

There is a fixed subset of the player base *who will not join a guild*. That is a red line for them, whether you agree with it or not. And those players, apart from spamming zone chat (which as a solution is simply a joke) *can't sell anything*. So they can't keep pace with inflation in the player economy.

To some extent, it wouldn't matter if all prices started hitting the tens of millions *if all players had an equal ability to plug themselves into the player economy and so could keep pace with inflation*.

If players refuse to join a guild, they can always farm the items themselves. Everything that's available on a guild trader can be farmed.

The only real benefit to trading is that you can focus on the gold-making activities you like so you can buy tradeable rewards from activities you don't like. I'd rather farm crafting mats than hunt for particular motifs, while other players prefer to hunt motifs so they don't have to farm their cornflower. Together, we make gold off trading each other what we want. It's convenient, not necessity. I could spend my time farming motifs. They could spend their time farming cornflower.

Being a player who *will not join a guild* is a choice.

Northwold · April 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Khami wrote: »

SWTOR is down to two servers for NA.

GTN is the AH there. Prices are so high, a new player could never buy anything on it. I was shocked when I saw how expensive everything is on it. Nothing remotely affordable for a returning player who had 5 million credits.

I've been able to buy new races on GTN in the past, no where near the cost of one today. I ended up using the cartel coins I had because 600 of those was easier and faster to get, even in game than making 300 million credits.

This is what will happen if you put everything in a central location aka the AH. Prices will go through the roof and stay there.

Also like to add, prices were lower on GTN when SWTOR had PvE servers, PvP servers, and RP servers, meaning more than two they have today.

Part of the issue, though, with the present guild trader setup is that they are GUILD traders. Even just allowing non guild member players to access the traders to sell, or creating standalone traders at various locations specifically for non-guild member traders to sell in, with limitations so that guild fans would not cry blue murder, would help.

There is a fixed subset of the player base *who will not join a guild*. That is a red line for them, whether you agree with it or not. And those players, apart from spamming zone chat (which as a solution is simply a joke) *can't sell anything*. So they can't keep pace with inflation in the player economy.

To some extent, it wouldn't matter if all prices started hitting the tens of millions *if all players had an equal ability to plug themselves into the player economy and so could keep pace with inflation*.

If players refuse to join a guild, they can always farm the items themselves. Everything that's available on a guild trader can be farmed.

The only real benefit to trading is that you can focus on the gold-making activities you like so you can buy tradeable rewards from activities you don't like. I'd rather farm crafting mats than hunt for particular motifs, while other players prefer to hunt motifs so they don't have to farm their cornflower. Together, we make gold off trading each other what we want. It's convenient, not necessity. I could spend my time farming motifs. They could spend their time farming cornflower.

Being a player who *will not join a guild* is a choice.

Indeed it is a choice. That doesn't actually add much to the debate. A subset of players do not want to play that way. It is also not realistic to say, if for instance you do housing, that you can farm everything. You can, but filling 700 slots by crafting would take you several years, so it just looks like being forcibly pushed to the crown store.

Not everyone plays this game the same way and likes the same things in it. And systems that may seem balanced to a player with X tastes may feel wildly unbalanced to a player with Y tastes. If the feel goes sufficiently out of line with what players find enjoyable to play, then they just leave.

"The game is fine you're playing it wrong", strangely, was not an argument deployed in abundance here over AWA, which was a subject that DID touch a nerve with the types of player on this forum. Other types of players also exist, to whom other game systems are problematic.

JKorr · April 2022

Starlight_Knight wrote: »

no - at leased not without a overhaul of guilds, i mean thats the reason we are in them, for traiding.

Theres no other guild activities to work for, no guild houses, no guild reputation or guild pvp ranks, take the traiding away there is no reason to be in a guild.

Gosh. I guess helping players with crafting, questing, public dungeons, anchors, and dungeons aren't enough reason for anyone to join a guild..... even the social and crafting guilds that don't actually concentrate on trading. I guess I should have dropped the guilds I was in for years because until two years ago I wasn't doing any trading, just crafting, running dungeons, and helping new players. Of course, YMMV.

MEBengalsFan2001 · April 2022

Jaustink wrote: »

Many other games include global auction houses or market boards rather than ESO's unique system of having guild traders. While this system is nice and unique, it makes it difficult to sometimes find certain items and to sell things depending on the guilds you belong to.

I wish I could review and purchase items through a centralized location vs. needing to review each trader.

wenchmore420b14_ESO · April 2022

EllieBlue wrote: »

Gaeliannas wrote: »

All games should just emulate the original Everquest, where we all just stand around in a tunnel shouting out what we are looking to trade and for what. Or version 2, where you went to a special plane and set your character afk for the night selling your wares among the rows of other afk players. It was actually pretty cool browsing everyone's stuff, you got to know who farmed what and where you had a good chance of finding what you needed.

This one! This one! Oh, the fun we will have... I don't even dare to imagine!

Awww the memories of launch! Lol...
When ESO was in it's first 6mo - year old, there were no Trader Kiosks. You could only sell to guild mates in the 5 guilds you were in. There was no One Tamriel, so you were able to only sell things in chat in your alliance area.
SO, we gathered in our capitol cities, mine was Riften, and tons of people just stood around buying and selling in chat.
Was fun for a bit, but glad Kiosks were added and GLAD and HAPPY with the system ZoS created.
NO to AH!
Just my 2 drakes!!
Huzzah!

Northwold · April 2022

tmbrinks wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

As much as it's beating a dead horse... I'm wary that they'll change "because it's what players have wanted"

Which is why I will forever ADAMANTLY, REPEATEDLY, and LOUDLY state my opinion on things like this so that ZoS knows there is opposition to this.

So we don't have the AwA debacle again, where ZoS thinks that just because people don't repeatedly reply to the 18 billion threads on something in opposition means that they are "for" the change.

No. No global auction house. Full Stop.

Again to point out that the most common reaction on both steam and reddit, to the extent there were even complaints at all, to complaints about AWA was to ask why anyone would play with more than one character. It's quite important to remember that this forum is not a representative sample of ESO's player base.

What's that have to do with my personal opinion?

To quote you later... both steam and reddit are also both self-selecting niche of the playerbase as well. They are not representative samples of ESO's playerbase either. I've been on reddit, the number of ex-players who do nothing but troll and derail topics is enough to not use it for any basis of "community opinion". Convenient how some think their "niche" is okay for the "community opinion" but others are not.

Not to get completely derailed but the ESO reddit has 380,000 members (not users, members). It may well not be representative but on sample size alone it's more probable than not that it is a much larger slice of the player base. The steam forums are open to any user of steam without even forum registration.

Your post referred directly to seeing
no replies on "the 18 billion threads on something in opposition means that they are "for" the change." You brought up the community point and it is to that that I replied.

I'm pointing out that posts here are not representative of views everywhere. Indeed, on AWA they were pretty much the direct opposite of what most posts elsewhere were saying. Given the sample size it would be pretty unwise to let this forum's views alone dictate what happens to the game.

Amottica · April 2022

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Although I voted "indifferent," it isn't because I don't care.

My understanding is that ZOS has indicated in the past that they weren't interested in adding a global auction house, although that doesn't necessarily mean it will never happen.

But I'm not sure if it could be added without negatively impacting server performance, so I'm not sure if it should ever happen.

I do think the current system has some issues; but assuming anything were to be done about those issues, maybe it would be better to keep the current system but try to address the existing issues within it.

It would be impossible to increase the size of a search 50-100 fold (which may be a modest range) and have a degradation of server performance. It comes down to pure math.

If the servers were performing great then it would not be noticeable but we are far from that state in ESO. That is why Zenimax has chosen to severely limit adding new systems to the game and has dramatically reduced our server request frequency with addons and sending mail, et al.

I am not making an argument concerning your overall opinion, after all both types of systems have flaws. I am just pointing out the server load realities.

BretonMage · April 2022

What I wish we had was an in-game version of TTC and Master Merchant.

tmbrinks · April 2022

Northwold wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

tmbrinks wrote: »

As much as it's beating a dead horse... I'm wary that they'll change "because it's what players have wanted"

Which is why I will forever ADAMANTLY, REPEATEDLY, and LOUDLY state my opinion on things like this so that ZoS knows there is opposition to this.

So we don't have the AwA debacle again, where ZoS thinks that just because people don't repeatedly reply to the 18 billion threads on something in opposition means that they are "for" the change.

No. No global auction house. Full Stop.

Again to point out that the most common reaction on both steam and reddit, to the extent there were even complaints at all, to complaints about AWA was to ask why anyone would play with more than one character. It's quite important to remember that this forum is not a representative sample of ESO's player base.

What's that have to do with my personal opinion?

To quote you later... both steam and reddit are also both self-selecting niche of the playerbase as well. They are not representative samples of ESO's playerbase either. I've been on reddit, the number of ex-players who do nothing but troll and derail topics is enough to not use it for any basis of "community opinion". Convenient how some think their "niche" is okay for the "community opinion" but others are not.

Not to get completely derailed but the ESO reddit has 380,000 members (not users, members). It may well not be representative but on sample size alone it's more probable than not that it is a much larger slice of the player base. The steam forums are open to any user of steam without even forum registration.

Your post referred directly to seeing
no replies on "the 18 billion threads on something in opposition means that they are "for" the change." You brought up the community point and it is to that that I replied.

I'm pointing out that posts here are not representative of views everywhere. Indeed, on AWA they were pretty much the direct opposite of what most posts elsewhere were saying. Given the sample size it would be pretty unwise to let this forum's views alone dictate what happens to the game.

That doesn't answer any of the things I brought up. But I agree with not getting completely derailed. My original post was on topic to the thread and stating my personal opinon.

VaranisArano · April 2022

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Khami wrote: »

SWTOR is down to two servers for NA.

GTN is the AH there. Prices are so high, a new player could never buy anything on it. I was shocked when I saw how expensive everything is on it. Nothing remotely affordable for a returning player who had 5 million credits.

I've been able to buy new races on GTN in the past, no where near the cost of one today. I ended up using the cartel coins I had because 600 of those was easier and faster to get, even in game than making 300 million credits.

This is what will happen if you put everything in a central location aka the AH. Prices will go through the roof and stay there.

Also like to add, prices were lower on GTN when SWTOR had PvE servers, PvP servers, and RP servers, meaning more than two they have today.

Part of the issue, though, with the present guild trader setup is that they are GUILD traders. Even just allowing non guild member players to access the traders to sell, or creating standalone traders at various locations specifically for non-guild member traders to sell in, with limitations so that guild fans would not cry blue murder, would help.

There is a fixed subset of the player base *who will not join a guild*. That is a red line for them, whether you agree with it or not. And those players, apart from spamming zone chat (which as a solution is simply a joke) *can't sell anything*. So they can't keep pace with inflation in the player economy.

To some extent, it wouldn't matter if all prices started hitting the tens of millions *if all players had an equal ability to plug themselves into the player economy and so could keep pace with inflation*.

If players refuse to join a guild, they can always farm the items themselves. Everything that's available on a guild trader can be farmed.

The only real benefit to trading is that you can focus on the gold-making activities you like so you can buy tradeable rewards from activities you don't like. I'd rather farm crafting mats than hunt for particular motifs, while other players prefer to hunt motifs so they don't have to farm their cornflower. Together, we make gold off trading each other what we want. It's convenient, not necessity. I could spend my time farming motifs. They could spend their time farming cornflower.

Being a player who *will not join a guild* is a choice.

Indeed it is a choice. That doesn't actually add much to the debate. A subset of players do not want to play that way. It is also not realistic to say, if for instance you do housing, that you can farm everything. You can, but filling 700 slots by crafting would take you several years, so it just looks like being forcibly pushed to the crown store.

Not everyone plays this game the same way and likes the same things in it. And systems that may seem balanced to a player with X tastes may feel wildly unbalanced to a player with Y tastes. If the feel goes sufficiently out of line with what players find enjoyable to play, then they just leave.

"The game is fine you're playing it wrong", strangely, was not an argument deployed in abundance here over AWA, which was a subject that DID touch a nerve with the types of player on this forum. Other types of players also exist, to whom other game systems are problematic.

I don't think the argument that all players don't have the equal ability to plug themselves into the economy and thus can't keep pace with inflation is accurate. Every player who wants to can find a trading guild to join; refusing to is not the same as lacking the ability to do so.

Moreover when it comes to keeping pace with inflation, all players either spend their time farming the items they want or the gold to buy them.

Even players who refuse to join guilds can farm the items they want. There's no inflation to keep pace with when it comes to farming your own housing mats. I farm mats to sell, but I'm still collecting about the same amount of mats in the same amount of time as I was years ago. You may not be able to keep pace with gold inflation if you refuse to sell to other players, but you can still get every tradeable item for the same amount of time spent farming as ever thus avoiding the whole gold inflation issue!

Farming your own items may not be the alternative you like, but it's a viable method - after all, that's exactly what the sellers are doing. That's how we make our gold.

(And if you feel like farming takes too much time and thus you are pushed to the Crown Store to get items in a timely fashion, that's a feature of the way ZOS monetizes Housing. MMOs are time sinks to begin with, and Housing is a very monetized time sink.)

You can ask for an Auction House all you like. I'm not gonna convince you otherwise.

I do think that players refusing to engage in ESO's trading system, then complaining that they neither want to farm items for themselves nor have the gold to purchase from the players who did farm, is a self-inflicted problem rather than a pervasive one.

Northwold · April 2022

VaranisArano wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Khami wrote: »

SWTOR is down to two servers for NA.

GTN is the AH there. Prices are so high, a new player could never buy anything on it. I was shocked when I saw how expensive everything is on it. Nothing remotely affordable for a returning player who had 5 million credits.

I've been able to buy new races on GTN in the past, no where near the cost of one today. I ended up using the cartel coins I had because 600 of those was easier and faster to get, even in game than making 300 million credits.

This is what will happen if you put everything in a central location aka the AH. Prices will go through the roof and stay there.

Also like to add, prices were lower on GTN when SWTOR had PvE servers, PvP servers, and RP servers, meaning more than two they have today.

Part of the issue, though, with the present guild trader setup is that they are GUILD traders. Even just allowing non guild member players to access the traders to sell, or creating standalone traders at various locations specifically for non-guild member traders to sell in, with limitations so that guild fans would not cry blue murder, would help.

There is a fixed subset of the player base *who will not join a guild*. That is a red line for them, whether you agree with it or not. And those players, apart from spamming zone chat (which as a solution is simply a joke) *can't sell anything*. So they can't keep pace with inflation in the player economy.

To some extent, it wouldn't matter if all prices started hitting the tens of millions *if all players had an equal ability to plug themselves into the player economy and so could keep pace with inflation*.

If players refuse to join a guild, they can always farm the items themselves. Everything that's available on a guild trader can be farmed.

The only real benefit to trading is that you can focus on the gold-making activities you like so you can buy tradeable rewards from activities you don't like. I'd rather farm crafting mats than hunt for particular motifs, while other players prefer to hunt motifs so they don't have to farm their cornflower. Together, we make gold off trading each other what we want. It's convenient, not necessity. I could spend my time farming motifs. They could spend their time farming cornflower.

Being a player who *will not join a guild* is a choice.

Indeed it is a choice. That doesn't actually add much to the debate. A subset of players do not want to play that way. It is also not realistic to say, if for instance you do housing, that you can farm everything. You can, but filling 700 slots by crafting would take you several years, so it just looks like being forcibly pushed to the crown store.

Not everyone plays this game the same way and likes the same things in it. And systems that may seem balanced to a player with X tastes may feel wildly unbalanced to a player with Y tastes. If the feel goes sufficiently out of line with what players find enjoyable to play, then they just leave.

"The game is fine you're playing it wrong", strangely, was not an argument deployed in abundance here over AWA, which was a subject that DID touch a nerve with the types of player on this forum. Other types of players also exist, to whom other game systems are problematic.

I don't think the argument that all players don't have the equal ability to plug themselves into the economy and thus can't keep pace with inflation is accurate. Every player who wants to can find a trading guild to join; refusing to is not the same as lacking the ability to do so.

Moreover when it comes to keeping pace with inflation, all players either spend their time farming the items they want or the gold to buy them.

Even players who refuse to join guilds can farm the items they want. There's no inflation to keep pace with when it comes to farming your own housing mats. I farm mats to sell, but I'm still collecting about the same amount of mats in the same amount of time as I was years ago. You may not be able to keep pace with gold inflation if you refuse to sell to other players, but you can still get every tradeable item for the same amount of time spent farming as ever thus avoiding the whole gold inflation issue!

Farming your own items may not be the alternative you like, but it's a viable method - after all, that's exactly what the sellers are doing. That's how we make our gold.

(And if you feel like farming takes too much time and thus you are pushed to the Crown Store to get items in a timely fashion, that's a feature of the way ZOS monetizes Housing. MMOs are time sinks to begin with, and Housing is a very monetized time sink.)

You can ask for an Auction House all you like. I'm not gonna convince you otherwise.

I do think that players refusing to engage in ESO's trading system, then complaining that they neither want to farm items for themselves nor have the gold to purchase from the players who did farm, is a self-inflicted problem rather than a pervasive one.

Well I left the game, so you're right that I don't agree with you.

But the farming point too often here gets cast as players being lazy, or met with surreal points like "all you need to do is run 18 characters and play the game 5 hours per day", as if that's remotely normal. (It's because of points like those that I will on occasion remind people that the habits of players here are often very far removed from the average player.)

Housing is one of the most imbalanced areas of the game. And you could farm a hell of a long time and still get absolutely nowhere. It's not laziness (whatever that means in the context of an electronic entertainment). It's that when you can only get one ivory clasp or whatever per day without literally running a fully populated zoo of characters, you are going to want to get into the player economy.

Much of the problem with these discussions is that they get played out in isolation. So people look at whether they want an auction house / store / whatever alone.

But it's hard to discuss the point without looking also at how guild traders connect with things like housing and the crown store. Add them all together and take solo players and you have a system that is a truly offensive grind to play, with the only escape the crown store.

I also don't think it's very productive to say that "MMOs are time sinks" as a reason for never changing anything. Yes they are. But at a certain point if that becomes so devoid of entertainment value that there's no point playing them, then the balance has gone wrong. They're games; you're supposed to get something back from the time sink. And indeed, if you're a housing player so at the bare minimum paying for ESO+ (if you haven't also spent pretty staggering sums on houses themselves), from your money.

wolfie1.0. · April 2022

Lumenn wrote: »

I've always been for it, simply because as I said before, any system is subject to manipulation and current system can be inconvenient for console. Plus despite my decades in retail management (or perhaps BECAUSE of it) I don't like the idea of "gatekeepers". The only way to sell is through a trader. The only realistic way of getting a trader is through a guild. Over the years I've seen some good ones, and I've seen some greedy ones, but you must join and obey/donate/pay or all three, to be in the CLUB to access the market and for me PERSONALLY (again maybe due to my decades) it's just not a subset of the game I was interested enough to "be a good boy and do as you're told or you can't trade". Anything I've bothered to sell has been in zone chat(I played EQ back then 😉) it should be open to all. Seriously it can be worse than an Home Owners Association.

MY question to everyone, a bit different, is this. To all the PC people nay saying this. (And I play both so I see both sides)Considering the recent discussion on add ons being cheating/invasive in pvp, what if Zos DID for some reason disable all add ons? Assume it's actually possible and they actually were SERIOUS about it(a scenario I doubt will EVER come to be for various reasons, but let play pretend) so now PC is stuck with the same system as console has. Slow, frustrating, you can spend hours and what you're looking for isn't even selling. How many would change their mind? Just curious and thought I'd ask.

To answer your question: many would just quit unless ZOS did some MAJOR QOL improvements to offset the value of addons.

that said, gatekeeping will exist no matter what economic system/structure you adopt. You could go to one extreme and make everything Bind on pickup, or the other and make everything tradeable and gatekeeping would still exist. mainly because ZOS and the IRL time you have to play ESO are the two biggest gatekeepers for the game, regardless of what players do or say.

With that out of the way, let me remind everyone of some facts.

No economic system is perfect in practice, humans will always muck it up.
No one is forced to use the guild traders to preform transactions, its just easier and safer to do it that way
You can avoid ALL trading if you wish and still play ESO just fine, as there are very few recurring in game activities that require a major gold investment that can't be avoided.
making gold is generally an easy activity with many in game options to do it, provided you are willing to invest the time.
Crown gifting sales are not a gold generating activity, they are a transfer of wealth activity. ESO is currently set up to divert funds into its two major gold sinks which are NPC gold purchases (houses, furnishings, wayshrines, repairs, etc) and Guild trader bids. Crown gifting sales generally divert funds away from the natural gold sinks.
More players use the existing trader system to buy than they do to sell.
Guilds with active traders have reported issues recruiting players to join, meaning a general lack of interest in selling.
based on what i have seen in reports from various GM's a solid guild in the top spots in the game there are a core group of players that make it so that that guild can make their bids, and a significant number of players that under contribute, don't contribute, or don't bother to list anything at all.

Personally, i have reached a point in ESO that i am indifferent to a GAH, there is even a part of me that wants it to happen. Really though its not going to happen, and can't happen. Look at it realistically, what would ZOS have to do to make it work?

They would first have to revamp ESO's Servers to Account for the expected traffic. They would have to assume that EVERY player would want/have the ability to trade and list items. meaning they would have to prep the game for that kind of traffic. right now they can't even give us a stable PVP system, they are not ready for it and wont be anytime soon. next they would have to stabilize the economy during the conversion process, because converting WOULD cause major economic ripples throughout the game. We are talking about taking what guilds have been spending most of their gold on and ending that activity, while also ending their incentive to exist as they currently do. Also, its not liek ZOS will just turn it on at the drop of a hat. it would hit the PTS in an update, and the weeks leading up to it would be bad for the unprepared. Those with LOTS of gold and items and ESO+ would be at the best position to exploit other players.

The only way I see to have a stable economy going into the change would be to complete a wipe of all gold and anything that can be sold for gold/traded. A clean wipe.