Thoughts on NB Healers?

freddybob951

For some context, I have played my main toon on and off since launch. I have over 1000 hours just on this character and started as a DPS, dabbled with tanking, and settled on healing a few years back. I am also an achievement hunter having completed a little over half of all in-game achievements. I have no trouble healing content but whenever I want to do trials I am told I should make a templar or they recommend me to make almost any class other than nightblade.

I am just curious what everyone's thoughts on NB Healers and how they compare to other healers. I personally believe that any class can play any role and complete any content given they have a good build and play well. I also understand that I may not be able to match other classes in certain aspects of healing but I really think that people are more limited by skill so long as their build is decent.

Sparxlost

anything you can do on a NB healer you can do better on a Templar healer imo
i still play a nightblade healer but it works but there are better healers out there..

freddybob951

Sparxlost wrote: »

anything you can do on a NB healer you can do better on a Templar healer imo
i still play a nightblade healer but it works but there are better healers out there..

Thanks for the input, I understand that there are better options, but that isn't to say that I won't be able to certain content just because of the role/class I am playing.

I may have to put a little more effort into healing to come close to other classes but I find it enjoyable and don't think that people should be expected to play the "best" class for a role. Also, I am not implying that you meant any of this, I am just adding to my original argument.

Mesite

I did some healing on my nightblade but it was just in normal dungeons. I had no problems and quite enjoyed it but I didn't try trials. If you are being harassed to try different classes try a different guild. I'm sure that last year people were saying how good nightshade healers are but the last post I can find is below...

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/456384/nightblade-healer-guide/p1

In the past I have often been a healer to level 50 to do dungeons then I change to dps.

kypranb14_ESO

I used to love healing on my Magblade before Refreshing Path and Funnel Health lost their damage. I loved having respectable damage while being able to keep a team alive through 4-man veteran hard mode content.

RedFireDisco

I tried it years ago when refreshing path healed and did damage. I'd never bother know when Magden or Magplar excel significantly while adding useful group utility buffs

maxjapank

Sparxlost wrote: »

anything you can do on a NB healer you can do better on a Templar healer imo
i still play a nightblade healer but it works but there are better healers out there..

Absolutely not true. In fact, I’d say that NBs speed with Refeshing Path makes for a better dungeon run. And best of all, NBs fear will actually keep most mobs doing absolutely no dmg.

Wyrd88

Healed all HMs in all dungeons and HMs in almost all trials (except RG) on my NB healer. If you know what you're doing and what your group needs it doesn't really matter which class to heal with. In certain cases some classes will outperform NB (or any other), but it all depends. In general NB healer is pretty much fine. If someone asking you to switch for another class in trial because they want buffs of other classes, then yeah, makes sense, but if it's without any reasons, just because NB healer is "bad" - don't listen, it's [snip]

[edited for profanity bypass]

DocFrost72

Nb healers benefit most from layered hots. Also leads to higher uptime if you want to run SPC, more chances to keep the proc rolling.

Some major benefits to picking a nightblade-

* In house major/minor armor with refreshing and mirage combo. Don't discount having 20k+ resists.

* Great ult gen. Potions, siphoning skills, and if you set it up having front bar soul harvest all contribute to very good ultimate uptime.

* Mobility- give your whole group major expedition, while healing.

I love nightblade healers, they're tons of fun! Very viable for a lot of content, including vet trials. As with all things talk to serious groups first, but I don't see why they wouldn't want you unless it's strat specific to have a warden/templar.

FeedbackOnly

Sparxlost wrote: »

anything you can do on a NB healer you can do better on a Templar healer imo
i still play a nightblade healer but it works but there are better healers out there..

Oh really like what currently now? Nightblade litterally has more group support than Templar now.

FeedbackOnly

freddybob951 wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

anything you can do on a NB healer you can do better on a Templar healer imo
i still play a nightblade healer but it works but there are better healers out there..

Thanks for the input, I understand that there are better options, but that isn't to say that I won't be able to certain content just because of the role/class I am playing.

I may have to put a little more effort into healing to come close to other classes but I find it enjoyable and don't think that people should be expected to play the "best" class for a role. Also, I am not implying that you meant any of this, I am just adding to my original argument.

I personally think they are mistaken. From logical stand point templar is weaker than nightblade as a healer. There's even logs proving it. People are just too used to having a templar

Daoin

did you want all around point of view or the already done it all on all content point of view ? if the smaller of the 2...even full stamina nightblabes can do considerable amounts of damage while keeping a group well healed. meaning you can still do random content as a dd and add a touch of healing to the amount you think is needed to help the group with what you are doing.

Elendir2am

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

anything you can do on a NB healer you can do better on a Templar healer imo
i still play a nightblade healer but it works but there are better healers out there..

Oh really like what currently now? Nightblade litterally has more group support than Templar now.

What specific skill of Nightblade does make them better then templars for trials? I would like to know.

Marginis

For context, I'm a NB main who does mostly tanking but otherwise heals.

...It's a tough life for us non-DPS NBs...

But NB healers do probably have the advantage of some of the strongest heals in the game, or at least they have the easiest time getting high numbers for their healing. But that's about it for good things.

As for disadvantages... well, between non-class healing ability nerfs and other classes getting buffs, NBs just don't have the tools for versatile healing like, say, Templars or Wardens. NBs can't mix and match heals like other classes, nor do they have an answer for every situation like other classes.

Anyway, take my generalizations for what you will. I also haven't made a healer yet since the hybridization changes, so we'll see if that changes anything (though I doubt it).

maxjapank

Marginis wrote: »

As for disadvantages... well, between non-class healing ability nerfs and other classes getting buffs, NBs just don't have the tools for versatile healing like, say, Templars or Wardens. NBs can't mix and match heals like other classes, nor do they have an answer for every situation like other classes.

Everyone keeps talking, but there are no specifics. What exactly can a Templar do that a Nightblade can't?

Both classes have access to Restoration staff skills.

Templars have an aoe, large radius hot - Extended Ritual - that ticks every 2 secs.
Nightblades have a smaller, aoe hot - Refreshing path - that ticks every 1 sec.

Templars have a burst heal - Breath or HoD. One heals 2 people, though the secondary heal is minimal.
Nighblades have a burst heal - Malevolent Offering. They only heal one person. But one gives minor mending.

Templars can give both resources through a synergy with Illustrous Shards.
Nightblades can instead use Necrotic Orb to provide synergy for one resource.

Templars have no real cc outside of a single target through toppling charge.
Nightblades can put down 2 fears with Manifestion of Terror, which will fear mobs in place. Mobs deal no dmg, so need no healing. Very underrated skill.

Templars will always have minor mending up.
Nightblades only get minor mending through one morph of Malevolent. However, they also get +3% heals for every Siphoning Ability.

Templars give minor Sorcery to the entire group.
Nightblades give minor Savagery to the entire group.

Templars have a very powerful aoe healing Ultimate.
Nightblades have a very powerful aoe healing Ultimate, that doesn't root them in place.

Cooperharley

I definitely think you have the ability to do any content on any class. It's all about player skill/gear/knowledge etc. I think a lot of people play meta classes for certain roles to make their lives easier where they only have to focus on getting gear and then parsing if dps, but i've grown to love off-meta classes for roles like templar and sorc tanking or nightblade and sorc healing for instance. It just spices the game up and makes your gameplay a little more interesting

Elendir2am

maxjapank wrote: »

Everyone keeps talking, but there are no specifics. What exactly can a Templar do that a Nightblade can't?

I give you answer, based on my knowledge why we have templar as second healer in trial group. I'm not saying, that NB cannot do healing in trials, but there can be some specific situation, where it will be harder with them.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have an aoe, large radius hot - Extended Ritual - that ticks every 2 secs.
Nightblades have a smaller, aoe hot - Refreshing path - that ticks every 1 sec.

Two aspect of "Extended Ritual" make it very useful, purification and size. Purification for fights, where DoTs are problem and site for fights, where cannot stay compact and need to scater on vide area.
NB can do both with "Grand Healing" and "Purge" morphs, but it is sub-optimal.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars can give both resources through a synergy with Illustrous Shards.
Nightblades can instead use Necrotic Orb to provide synergy for one resource.

Templar can use "Energy Orb" for group and "Luminous Shards" for tank exclusively. Useful when tank has problem with resources.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have a burst heal - Breath or HoD. One heals 2 people, though the secondary heal is minimal.
Nighblades have a burst heal - Malevolent Offering. They only heal one person. But one gives minor mending.

Templars will always have minor mending up.
Nightblades only get minor mending through one morph of Malevolent. However, they also get +3% heals for every Siphoning Ability.

Templars give minor Sorcery to the entire group.
Nightblades give minor Savagery to the entire group.

Templars have a very powerful aoe healing Ultimate.
Nightblades have a very powerful aoe healing Ultimate, that doesn't root them in place.

I don't see any important difference here.
Trial healers use "Horn" and "Barrier " as ultimate.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have no real cc outside of a single target through toppling charge.
Nightblades can put down 2 fears with Manifestion of Terror, which will fear mobs in place. Mobs deal no dmg, so need no healing. Very underrated skill.

CC is tank task in trials and dungeons alike. Healer will not help situation, if they gives cc immunity to trash. There is some specific situation, where healer use "Inner Fire", but it is all.

I would like to write at the end, that I don't have personal experience with NB healer and I cannot exclude, that they have some great skill for this task (trial healers). However, I don't see any example of such in this discusion so far.

maxjapank

@Elendir2am Thank you for your response. I mostly speak from dungeon and pvp experience, not trials. And from a dungeon and pvp perspective, NB healers are pretty op. I speak as one has mained a Templar healer for most of my ESO life, since just after Beta. But I would say this. While your group may run a certain way, it is not always how others run it. And while you might prefer to have one healer a Templar, not every healer needs to be a Templar. There are also sets that purge. And sets that return resources. The majority of the player base will never run HM trials and if they ever do, they will likely have multiple classes to choose from. So when someone pipes in that Templars make better healers and offer more, it just isn't true, especially for the majority of the game. In fact, Nightblades excel in some areas that Templars do not.

Marginis

maxjapank wrote: »

Marginis wrote: »

As for disadvantages... well, between non-class healing ability nerfs and other classes getting buffs, NBs just don't have the tools for versatile healing like, say, Templars or Wardens. NBs can't mix and match heals like other classes, nor do they have an answer for every situation like other classes.

Everyone keeps talking, but there are no specifics. What exactly can a Templar do that a Nightblade can't?

Both classes have access to Restoration staff skills.

Templars have an aoe, large radius hot - Extended Ritual - that ticks every 2 secs.
Nightblades have a smaller, aoe hot - Refreshing path - that ticks every 1 sec.

Templars have a burst heal - Breath or HoD. One heals 2 people, though the secondary heal is minimal.
Nighblades have a burst heal - Malevolent Offering. They only heal one person. But one gives minor mending.

Templars can give both resources through a synergy with Illustrous Shards.
Nightblades can instead use Necrotic Orb to provide synergy for one resource.

Templars have no real cc outside of a single target through toppling charge.
Nightblades can put down 2 fears with Manifestion of Terror, which will fear mobs in place. Mobs deal no dmg, so need no healing. Very underrated skill.

Templars will always have minor mending up.
Nightblades only get minor mending through one morph of Malevolent. However, they also get +3% heals for every Siphoning Ability.

Templars give minor Sorcery to the entire group.
Nightblades give minor Savagery to the entire group.

Templars have a very powerful aoe healing Ultimate.
Nightblades have a very powerful aoe healing Ultimate, that doesn't root them in place.

"Anyway, take my generalizations for what you will."

I never claimed to give specifics, just for the record.

exeeter702

Elendir2am wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Everyone keeps talking, but there are no specifics. What exactly can a Templar do that a Nightblade can't?

I give you answer, based on my knowledge why we have templar as second healer in trial group. I'm not saying, that NB cannot do healing in trials, but there can be some specific situation, where it will be harder with them.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have an aoe, large radius hot - Extended Ritual - that ticks every 2 secs.
Nightblades have a smaller, aoe hot - Refreshing path - that ticks every 1 sec.

Two aspect of "Extended Ritual" make it very useful, purification and size. Purification for fights, where DoTs are problem and site for fights, where cannot stay compact and need to scater on vide area.
NB can do both with "Grand Healing" and "Purge" morphs, but it is sub-optimal.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars can give both resources through a synergy with Illustrous Shards.
Nightblades can instead use Necrotic Orb to provide synergy for one resource.

Templar can use "Energy Orb" for group and "Luminous Shards" for tank exclusively. Useful when tank has problem with resources.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have a burst heal - Breath or HoD. One heals 2 people, though the secondary heal is minimal.
Nighblades have a burst heal - Malevolent Offering. They only heal one person. But one gives minor mending.

Templars will always have minor mending up.
Nightblades only get minor mending through one morph of Malevolent. However, they also get +3% heals for every Siphoning Ability.

Templars give minor Sorcery to the entire group.
Nightblades give minor Savagery to the entire group.

Templars have a very powerful aoe healing Ultimate.
Nightblades have a very powerful aoe healing Ultimate, that doesn't root them in place.

I don't see any important difference here.
Trial healers use "Horn" and "Barrier " as ultimate.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have no real cc outside of a single target through toppling charge.
Nightblades can put down 2 fears with Manifestion of Terror, which will fear mobs in place. Mobs deal no dmg, so need no healing. Very underrated skill.

CC is tank task in trials and dungeons alike. Healer will not help situation, if they gives cc immunity to trash. There is some specific situation, where healer use "Inner Fire", but it is all.

I would like to write at the end, that I don't have personal experience with NB healer and I cannot exclude, that they have some great skill for this task (trial healers). However, I don't see any example of such in this discusion so far.

Purifications radius is a benefit for pvp. Very few trial fights require critical cleansing where the group is spread out far enough that ritual becomes more usefull than purge. In fact most encounters where cleansing is a focus, purge is taken.

NBs have rolling hots via funnel health, regen ticks and refreshing path that far outweigh any range limitations. The hot values alone more than carry their weight.

Paths coverage area is far greater than the corridor tool tip states because the effect lingers when leaving the aoe. Since every recipient of paths heal also is granted major expedition, the effective radius for the skill nearly doubled. And generally, you have groups positioning for combat prayer uptime regardless. I would go as far as argue NB is the only healer that can actually get away with not having to slot springs at all.

Orbs vs shards is entirely between single target quick application, or group wide coverage. I have never been in a group that is having a single templar healer slotting both skills. That is both redundant and a waste of a slot. If you are putting a single templar on both orb and shard duty, all you are doing is allowing the other healer to inject more dps into the group by way of a free slot on their bar.

You mention healers in trials being horn and barrier users, but omit the fact that NB has objectively superior ultimate generation out of the box.

The real advantage templar had over nb is technically having one more class based synergy option with ritual for the ever slight sustain gain via undaunted passive. But with refreshing paths new buff this is a moot point now. Other then that, if the templar isnt exclusively on horn duty (which ironically with a NB co healer they may not need to be) templars major maim via nova is a notable gain over NBs ult options for the group.

Kahnak

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

freddybob951 wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

anything you can do on a NB healer you can do better on a Templar healer imo
i still play a nightblade healer but it works but there are better healers out there..

Thanks for the input, I understand that there are better options, but that isn't to say that I won't be able to certain content just because of the role/class I am playing.

I may have to put a little more effort into healing to come close to other classes but I find it enjoyable and don't think that people should be expected to play the "best" class for a role. Also, I am not implying that you meant any of this, I am just adding to my original argument.

I personally think they are mistaken. From logical stand point templar is weaker than nightblade as a healer. There's even logs proving it. People are just too used to having a templar

There aren't logs proving that a Nightblade has more utility as a healer. That doesn't make any sense. If you're referring to HPS, then the healing role has gone completely over your head.

Kahnak

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

anything you can do on a NB healer you can do better on a Templar healer imo
i still play a nightblade healer but it works but there are better healers out there..

Oh really like what currently now? Nightblade litterally has more group support than Templar now.

Claim #2 without any support whatsoever.

FeedbackOnly

Elendir2am wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

anything you can do on a NB healer you can do better on a Templar healer imo
i still play a nightblade healer but it works but there are better healers out there..

Oh really like what currently now? Nightblade litterally has more group support than Templar now.

What specific skill of Nightblade does make them better then templars for trials? I would like to know.

Better question what in world can templar actually do better?

FeedbackOnly

Kahnak wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

anything you can do on a NB healer you can do better on a Templar healer imo
i still play a nightblade healer but it works but there are better healers out there..

Oh really like what currently now? Nightblade litterally has more group support than Templar now.

Claim #2 without any support whatsoever.

Claim templar is better without support too. Only thing they got for them now is history

FeedbackOnly

Kahnak wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

freddybob951 wrote: »

Sparxlost wrote: »

anything you can do on a NB healer you can do better on a Templar healer imo
i still play a nightblade healer but it works but there are better healers out there..

Thanks for the input, I understand that there are better options, but that isn't to say that I won't be able to certain content just because of the role/class I am playing.

I may have to put a little more effort into healing to come close to other classes but I find it enjoyable and don't think that people should be expected to play the "best" class for a role. Also, I am not implying that you meant any of this, I am just adding to my original argument.

I personally think they are mistaken. From logical stand point templar is weaker than nightblade as a healer. There's even logs proving it. People are just too used to having a templar

There aren't logs proving that a Nightblade has more utility as a healer. That doesn't make any sense. If you're referring to HPS, then the healing role has gone completely over your head.

I am actually referring to both. You all can be bitter, but real truth is templar is just old news now.

Healers needs more than shards now

Kahnak

exeeter702 wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Everyone keeps talking, but there are no specifics. What exactly can a Templar do that a Nightblade can't?

I give you answer, based on my knowledge why we have templar as second healer in trial group. I'm not saying, that NB cannot do healing in trials, but there can be some specific situation, where it will be harder with them.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have an aoe, large radius hot - Extended Ritual - that ticks every 2 secs.
Nightblades have a smaller, aoe hot - Refreshing path - that ticks every 1 sec.

Two aspect of "Extended Ritual" make it very useful, purification and size. Purification for fights, where DoTs are problem and site for fights, where cannot stay compact and need to scater on vide area.
NB can do both with "Grand Healing" and "Purge" morphs, but it is sub-optimal.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars can give both resources through a synergy with Illustrous Shards.
Nightblades can instead use Necrotic Orb to provide synergy for one resource.

Templar can use "Energy Orb" for group and "Luminous Shards" for tank exclusively. Useful when tank has problem with resources.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have a burst heal - Breath or HoD. One heals 2 people, though the secondary heal is minimal.
Nighblades have a burst heal - Malevolent Offering. They only heal one person. But one gives minor mending.

Templars will always have minor mending up.
Nightblades only get minor mending through one morph of Malevolent. However, they also get +3% heals for every Siphoning Ability.

Templars give minor Sorcery to the entire group.
Nightblades give minor Savagery to the entire group.

Templars have a very powerful aoe healing Ultimate.
Nightblades have a very powerful aoe healing Ultimate, that doesn't root them in place.

I don't see any important difference here.
Trial healers use "Horn" and "Barrier " as ultimate.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have no real cc outside of a single target through toppling charge.
Nightblades can put down 2 fears with Manifestion of Terror, which will fear mobs in place. Mobs deal no dmg, so need no healing. Very underrated skill.

CC is tank task in trials and dungeons alike. Healer will not help situation, if they gives cc immunity to trash. There is some specific situation, where healer use "Inner Fire", but it is all.

I would like to write at the end, that I don't have personal experience with NB healer and I cannot exclude, that they have some great skill for this task (trial healers). However, I don't see any example of such in this discusion so far.

Purifications radius is a benefit for pvp. Very few trial fights require critical cleansing where the group is spread out far enough that ritual becomes more usefull than purge. In fact most encounters where cleansing is a focus, purge is taken.

NBs have rolling hots via funnel health, regen ticks and refreshing path that far outweigh any range limitations. The hot values alone more than carry their weight.

Paths coverage area is far greater than the corridor tool tip states because the effect lingers when leaving the aoe. Since every recipient of paths heal also is granted major expedition, the effective radius for the skill nearly doubled. And generally, you have groups positioning for combat prayer uptime regardless. I would go as far as argue NB is the only healer that can actually get away with not having to slot springs at all.

Orbs vs shards is entirely between single target quick application, or group wide coverage. I have never been in a group that is having a single templar healer slotting both skills. That is both redundant and a waste of a slot. If you are putting a single templar on both orb and shard duty, all you are doing is allowing the other healer to inject more dps into the group by way of a free slot on their bar.

You mention healers in trials being horn and barrier users, but omit the fact that NB has objectively superior ultimate generation out of the box.

The real advantage templar had over nb is technically having one more class based synergy option with ritual for the ever slight sustain gain via undaunted passive. But with refreshing paths new buff this is a moot point now. Other then that, if the templar isnt exclusively on horn duty (which ironically with a NB co healer they may not need to be) templars major maim via nova is a notable gain over NBs ult options for the group.

"Purifications radius is a benefit for pvp. Very few trial fights require critical cleansing where the group is spread out far enough that ritual becomes more usefull than purge. In fact most encounters where cleansing is a focus, purge is taken."

Ritual is more useful than purge simply because it provides a unique synergy that a tank can use for Alkosh.

"NBs have rolling hots via funnel health, regen ticks and refreshing path that far outweigh any range limitations. The hot values alone more than carry their weight."

Funnel Health is basically useless in a trial and refreshing path's AOE is so small as to be just as useless in the same scenario. Ritual is better by simply being larger, provides resources and a cleanse on demand with a synergy and lasts longer.

"Paths coverage area is far greater than the corridor tool tip states because the effect lingers when leaving the aoe. Since every recipient of paths heal also is granted major expedition, the effective radius for the skill nearly doubled. And generally, you have groups positioning for combat prayer uptime regardless. I would go as far as argue NB is the only healer that can actually get away with not having to slot springs at all."

Any healer attempting to do anything serious in group PVE is going to get kicked if they are not using Healing Springs. What are you even talking about?

"Orbs vs shards is entirely between single target quick application, or group wide coverage. I have never been in a group that is having a single templar healer slotting both skills. That is both redundant and a waste of a slot. If you are putting a single templar on both orb and shard duty, all you are doing is allowing the other healer to inject more dps into the group by way of a free slot on their bar."

No, it isn't. Again, you're just demonstrating that you've never done anything in an organized group. Shards provide a unique synergy for Alkosh uptime and is generally given to the tank because it's easy to position. Orbs is one of the strongest heals in the game and can be thrown through the DPS for their own synergy while shards is active, so they don't grab shards from the tank.

"You mention healers in trials being horn and barrier users, but omit the fact that NB has objectively superior ultimate generation out of the box."

Yeah, it's great if all you're using is Death Stroke that costs 70 ultimate. But their ultimate generation does not equal any additional war horns unless your DPS is so low as to drag the fight out. And, again, War Horn is rotated between support classes to maximize uptime, so your ultimate generation hardly matters, but you wouldn't know that if you haven't done any serious PVE.

FeedbackOnly

Kahnak wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Everyone keeps talking, but there are no specifics. What exactly can a Templar do that a Nightblade can't?

I give you answer, based on my knowledge why we have templar as second healer in trial group. I'm not saying, that NB cannot do healing in trials, but there can be some specific situation, where it will be harder with them.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have an aoe, large radius hot - Extended Ritual - that ticks every 2 secs.
Nightblades have a smaller, aoe hot - Refreshing path - that ticks every 1 sec.

Two aspect of "Extended Ritual" make it very useful, purification and size. Purification for fights, where DoTs are problem and site for fights, where cannot stay compact and need to scater on vide area.
NB can do both with "Grand Healing" and "Purge" morphs, but it is sub-optimal.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars can give both resources through a synergy with Illustrous Shards.
Nightblades can instead use Necrotic Orb to provide synergy for one resource.

Templar can use "Energy Orb" for group and "Luminous Shards" for tank exclusively. Useful when tank has problem with resources.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have a burst heal - Breath or HoD. One heals 2 people, though the secondary heal is minimal.
Nighblades have a burst heal - Malevolent Offering. They only heal one person. But one gives minor mending.

Templars will always have minor mending up.
Nightblades only get minor mending through one morph of Malevolent. However, they also get +3% heals for every Siphoning Ability.

Templars give minor Sorcery to the entire group.
Nightblades give minor Savagery to the entire group.

Templars have a very powerful aoe healing Ultimate.
Nightblades have a very powerful aoe healing Ultimate, that doesn't root them in place.

I don't see any important difference here.
Trial healers use "Horn" and "Barrier " as ultimate.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have no real cc outside of a single target through toppling charge.
Nightblades can put down 2 fears with Manifestion of Terror, which will fear mobs in place. Mobs deal no dmg, so need no healing. Very underrated skill.

CC is tank task in trials and dungeons alike. Healer will not help situation, if they gives cc immunity to trash. There is some specific situation, where healer use "Inner Fire", but it is all.

I would like to write at the end, that I don't have personal experience with NB healer and I cannot exclude, that they have some great skill for this task (trial healers). However, I don't see any example of such in this discusion so far.

Purifications radius is a benefit for pvp. Very few trial fights require critical cleansing where the group is spread out far enough that ritual becomes more usefull than purge. In fact most encounters where cleansing is a focus, purge is taken.

NBs have rolling hots via funnel health, regen ticks and refreshing path that far outweigh any range limitations. The hot values alone more than carry their weight.

Paths coverage area is far greater than the corridor tool tip states because the effect lingers when leaving the aoe. Since every recipient of paths heal also is granted major expedition, the effective radius for the skill nearly doubled. And generally, you have groups positioning for combat prayer uptime regardless. I would go as far as argue NB is the only healer that can actually get away with not having to slot springs at all.

Orbs vs shards is entirely between single target quick application, or group wide coverage. I have never been in a group that is having a single templar healer slotting both skills. That is both redundant and a waste of a slot. If you are putting a single templar on both orb and shard duty, all you are doing is allowing the other healer to inject more dps into the group by way of a free slot on their bar.

You mention healers in trials being horn and barrier users, but omit the fact that NB has objectively superior ultimate generation out of the box.

The real advantage templar had over nb is technically having one more class based synergy option with ritual for the ever slight sustain gain via undaunted passive. But with refreshing paths new buff this is a moot point now. Other then that, if the templar isnt exclusively on horn duty (which ironically with a NB co healer they may not need to be) templars major maim via nova is a notable gain over NBs ult options for the group.

"Purifications radius is a benefit for pvp. Very few trial fights require critical cleansing where the group is spread out far enough that ritual becomes more usefull than purge. In fact most encounters where cleansing is a focus, purge is taken."

Ritual is more useful than purge simply because it provides a unique synergy that a tank can use for Alkosh.

"NBs have rolling hots via funnel health, regen ticks and refreshing path that far outweigh any range limitations. The hot values alone more than carry their weight."

Funnel Health is basically useless in a trial and refreshing path's AOE is so small as to be just as useless in the same scenario. Ritual is better by simply being larger, provides resources and a cleanse on demand with a synergy and lasts longer.

"Paths coverage area is far greater than the corridor tool tip states because the effect lingers when leaving the aoe. Since every recipient of paths heal also is granted major expedition, the effective radius for the skill nearly doubled. And generally, you have groups positioning for combat prayer uptime regardless. I would go as far as argue NB is the only healer that can actually get away with not having to slot springs at all."

Any healer attempting to do anything serious in group PVE is going to get kicked if they are not using Healing Springs. What are you even talking about?

"Orbs vs shards is entirely between single target quick application, or group wide coverage. I have never been in a group that is having a single templar healer slotting both skills. That is both redundant and a waste of a slot. If you are putting a single templar on both orb and shard duty, all you are doing is allowing the other healer to inject more dps into the group by way of a free slot on their bar."

No, it isn't. Again, you're just demonstrating that you've never done anything in an organized group. Shards provide a unique synergy for Alkosh uptime and is generally given to the tank because it's easy to position. Orbs is one of the strongest heals in the game and can be thrown through the DPS for their own synergy while shards is active, so they don't grab shards from the tank.

"You mention healers in trials being horn and barrier users, but omit the fact that NB has objectively superior ultimate generation out of the box."

Yeah, it's great if all you're using is Death Stroke that costs 70 ultimate. But their ultimate generation does not equal any additional war horns unless your DPS is so low as to drag the fight out. And, again, War Horn is rotated between support classes to maximize uptime, so your ultimate generation hardly matters, but you wouldn't know that if you haven't done any serious PVE.

It's amusing that you say they haven't done anything in organizied group...yet you think tanks still use alkoash? When's the last time you played?

Okay I suppose I really will get in this debate, argument, or is it discussion, only time will tell

So to reaffirm this discussion is Templar vs Nightblade Only


Point 1: Nightblade has easier time procing status effects, From overcharged, sundered. Now templar has zero status effects within normal healer kit.

For those who haven't played in awhile status effects are important with change to high isle that give groups penetration.

Point 2

Nightblade has better damage reduction for the times this actually matters. Major protection isn't on any sets while major maim is on a monster set. Now even if we ingore that we still got one of only classes with major cowardice. This off course is the same debuff that's on entire 5 piece set called mending

Point 3

Nightblade has overcharge, sundered, major expedition, minor intellect, minor endurance, defile all within standard tool kit for healer

Outside standard toolkit you got minor maim, and a disease proc for more status effects


While templar has shards ....

Point 4

We can argue templar has bigger radius of heals than nightblade, but than in organizied group you should be stacking anyways

Point 5

Nightblade has best proc of minor vulnerability of all the classes as it's aoe... while templar has none

Take note even warden only has it as single target as of this patch.

Point 6

With off balance being important again, nightblade has the better proc of it as they don't have to run and charge enemy

Point 7

Nightblade has more stable ultimate generation as you can use points or ultimate that generates it

Point 8

Nightblade has better sustain. There's 2 skills for this one being ultimate. Both skills you don't have to stand in one spot to use it

Point 9

Nightblade gives more DPS to group. Modern groups use full healer plus a healer is a part time DPS


Yeah templar is a legacy addition into groups as healers

exeeter702

Kahnak wrote: »

exeeter702 wrote: »

Elendir2am wrote: »

maxjapank wrote: »

Everyone keeps talking, but there are no specifics. What exactly can a Templar do that a Nightblade can't?

I give you answer, based on my knowledge why we have templar as second healer in trial group. I'm not saying, that NB cannot do healing in trials, but there can be some specific situation, where it will be harder with them.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have an aoe, large radius hot - Extended Ritual - that ticks every 2 secs.
Nightblades have a smaller, aoe hot - Refreshing path - that ticks every 1 sec.

Two aspect of "Extended Ritual" make it very useful, purification and size. Purification for fights, where DoTs are problem and site for fights, where cannot stay compact and need to scater on vide area.
NB can do both with "Grand Healing" and "Purge" morphs, but it is sub-optimal.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars can give both resources through a synergy with Illustrous Shards.
Nightblades can instead use Necrotic Orb to provide synergy for one resource.

Templar can use "Energy Orb" for group and "Luminous Shards" for tank exclusively. Useful when tank has problem with resources.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have a burst heal - Breath or HoD. One heals 2 people, though the secondary heal is minimal.
Nighblades have a burst heal - Malevolent Offering. They only heal one person. But one gives minor mending.

Templars will always have minor mending up.
Nightblades only get minor mending through one morph of Malevolent. However, they also get +3% heals for every Siphoning Ability.

Templars give minor Sorcery to the entire group.
Nightblades give minor Savagery to the entire group.

Templars have a very powerful aoe healing Ultimate.
Nightblades have a very powerful aoe healing Ultimate, that doesn't root them in place.

I don't see any important difference here.
Trial healers use "Horn" and "Barrier " as ultimate.

maxjapank wrote: »

Templars have no real cc outside of a single target through toppling charge.
Nightblades can put down 2 fears with Manifestion of Terror, which will fear mobs in place. Mobs deal no dmg, so need no healing. Very underrated skill.

CC is tank task in trials and dungeons alike. Healer will not help situation, if they gives cc immunity to trash. There is some specific situation, where healer use "Inner Fire", but it is all.

I would like to write at the end, that I don't have personal experience with NB healer and I cannot exclude, that they have some great skill for this task (trial healers). However, I don't see any example of such in this discusion so far.

Purifications radius is a benefit for pvp. Very few trial fights require critical cleansing where the group is spread out far enough that ritual becomes more usefull than purge. In fact most encounters where cleansing is a focus, purge is taken.

NBs have rolling hots via funnel health, regen ticks and refreshing path that far outweigh any range limitations. The hot values alone more than carry their weight.

Paths coverage area is far greater than the corridor tool tip states because the effect lingers when leaving the aoe. Since every recipient of paths heal also is granted major expedition, the effective radius for the skill nearly doubled. And generally, you have groups positioning for combat prayer uptime regardless. I would go as far as argue NB is the only healer that can actually get away with not having to slot springs at all.

Orbs vs shards is entirely between single target quick application, or group wide coverage. I have never been in a group that is having a single templar healer slotting both skills. That is both redundant and a waste of a slot. If you are putting a single templar on both orb and shard duty, all you are doing is allowing the other healer to inject more dps into the group by way of a free slot on their bar.

You mention healers in trials being horn and barrier users, but omit the fact that NB has objectively superior ultimate generation out of the box.

The real advantage templar had over nb is technically having one more class based synergy option with ritual for the ever slight sustain gain via undaunted passive. But with refreshing paths new buff this is a moot point now. Other then that, if the templar isnt exclusively on horn duty (which ironically with a NB co healer they may not need to be) templars major maim via nova is a notable gain over NBs ult options for the group.

"Purifications radius is a benefit for pvp. Very few trial fights require critical cleansing where the group is spread out far enough that ritual becomes more usefull than purge. In fact most encounters where cleansing is a focus, purge is taken."

Ritual is more useful than purge simply because it provides a unique synergy that a tank can use for Alkosh.

"NBs have rolling hots via funnel health, regen ticks and refreshing path that far outweigh any range limitations. The hot values alone more than carry their weight."

Funnel Health is basically useless in a trial and refreshing path's AOE is so small as to be just as useless in the same scenario. Ritual is better by simply being larger, provides resources and a cleanse on demand with a synergy and lasts longer.

"Paths coverage area is far greater than the corridor tool tip states because the effect lingers when leaving the aoe. Since every recipient of paths heal also is granted major expedition, the effective radius for the skill nearly doubled. And generally, you have groups positioning for combat prayer uptime regardless. I would go as far as argue NB is the only healer that can actually get away with not having to slot springs at all."

Any healer attempting to do anything serious in group PVE is going to get kicked if they are not using Healing Springs. What are you even talking about?

"Orbs vs shards is entirely between single target quick application, or group wide coverage. I have never been in a group that is having a single templar healer slotting both skills. That is both redundant and a waste of a slot. If you are putting a single templar on both orb and shard duty, all you are doing is allowing the other healer to inject more dps into the group by way of a free slot on their bar."

No, it isn't. Again, you're just demonstrating that you've never done anything in an organized group. Shards provide a unique synergy for Alkosh uptime and is generally given to the tank because it's easy to position. Orbs is one of the strongest heals in the game and can be thrown through the DPS for their own synergy while shards is active, so they don't grab shards from the tank.

"You mention healers in trials being horn and barrier users, but omit the fact that NB has objectively superior ultimate generation out of the box."

Yeah, it's great if all you're using is Death Stroke that costs 70 ultimate. But their ultimate generation does not equal any additional war horns unless your DPS is so low as to drag the fight out. And, again, War Horn is rotated between support classes to maximize uptime, so your ultimate generation hardly matters, but you wouldn't know that if you haven't done any serious PVE.

I dont know anything about serious pve? Is that right? You do you man. Alkosh away. I'm done here.

Elendir2am

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

It's amusing that you say they haven't done anything in organizied group...yet you think tanks still use alkoash? When's the last time you played?

Okay I suppose I really will get in this debate, argument, or is it discussion, only time will tell

So to reaffirm this discussion is Templar vs Nightblade Only

Point 1: Nightblade has easier time procing status effects, From overcharged, sundered. Now templar has zero status effects within normal healer kit.

For those who haven't played in awhile status effects are important with change to high isle that give groups penetration.

Point 2

Nightblade has better damage reduction for the times this actually matters. Major protection isn't on any sets while major maim is on a monster set. Now even if we ingore that we still got one of only classes with major cowardice. This off course is the same debuff that's on entire 5 piece set called mending

Point 3

Nightblade has overcharge, sundered, major expedition, minor intellect, minor endurance, defile all within standard tool kit for healer

Outside standard toolkit you got minor maim, and a disease proc for more status effects


While templar has shards ....

Point 4

We can argue templar has bigger radius of heals than nightblade, but than in organizied group you should be stacking anyways

Point 5

Nightblade has best proc of minor vulnerability of all the classes as it's aoe... while templar has none

Take note even warden only has it as single target as of this patch.

Point 6

With off balance being important again, nightblade has the better proc of it as they don't have to run and charge enemy

Point 7

Nightblade has more stable ultimate generation as you can use points or ultimate that generates it

Point 8

Nightblade has better sustain. There's 2 skills for this one being ultimate. Both skills you don't have to stand in one spot to use it

Point 9

Nightblade gives more DPS to group. Modern groups use full healer plus a healer is a part time DPS

Yeah templar is a legacy addition into groups as healers

Although your post shows how awesome NB healers are, it lacks of one important aspect.

Mechanic of implementation, what skill or gear is demanded: demand on bar space, way of its using, area of effect. Can healer applied it anytime (kiting included) or they need to be with group or with boss. How long it goes, how hard it is to keep it uptime. Is necessary NB healer, or it is present with any NB in group.

If you describe the way of implementation, I could do then verification of how many of your point are valid.

So I will only address point 4 and point 9.

Point 4, organized group can stack only when mechanics allow it. Trials are full of battle, where semicircle is needed. Some mechanics force DD left formation and play specific way, do some task, carry out meteor / curse. It is useful, when they can stay at ritual radius.

Point 9, It has nothing to do with modern groups. Top DPS group could play trials different way for long time. With high DPS and ability to play mechanics, importance of healer decrease. OT or one of DDs can switch skills if mechanics demand two different healers.

the1andonlyskwex

Kahnak wrote: »

No, it isn't. Again, you're just demonstrating that you've never done anything in an organized group. Shards provide a unique synergy for Alkosh uptime and is generally given to the tank because it's easy to position. Orbs is one of the strongest heals in the game and can be thrown through the DPS for their own synergy while shards is active, so they don't grab shards from the tank.

Uh, Shards's synergy isn't "unique" in the way most people use that term. It shares a cooldown with Orb. Yes, I suppose you could cast Shards and Orb in two different directions/locations simultaneously, but the conventional (and more bar-space efficient) approach is to only slot one or the other.

FeedbackOnly

Elendir2am wrote: »

FeedbackOnly wrote: »

It's amusing that you say they haven't done anything in organizied group...yet you think tanks still use alkoash? When's the last time you played?

Okay I suppose I really will get in this debate, argument, or is it discussion, only time will tell

So to reaffirm this discussion is Templar vs Nightblade Only

Point 1: Nightblade has easier time procing status effects, From overcharged, sundered. Now templar has zero status effects within normal healer kit.

For those who haven't played in awhile status effects are important with change to high isle that give groups penetration.

Point 2

Nightblade has better damage reduction for the times this actually matters. Major protection isn't on any sets while major maim is on a monster set. Now even if we ingore that we still got one of only classes with major cowardice. This off course is the same debuff that's on entire 5 piece set called mending

Point 3

Nightblade has overcharge, sundered, major expedition, minor intellect, minor endurance, defile all within standard tool kit for healer

Outside standard toolkit you got minor maim, and a disease proc for more status effects


While templar has shards ....

Point 4

We can argue templar has bigger radius of heals than nightblade, but than in organizied group you should be stacking anyways

Point 5

Nightblade has best proc of minor vulnerability of all the classes as it's aoe... while templar has none

Take note even warden only has it as single target as of this patch.

Point 6

With off balance being important again, nightblade has the better proc of it as they don't have to run and charge enemy

Point 7

Nightblade has more stable ultimate generation as you can use points or ultimate that generates it

Point 8

Nightblade has better sustain. There's 2 skills for this one being ultimate. Both skills you don't have to stand in one spot to use it

Point 9

Nightblade gives more DPS to group. Modern groups use full healer plus a healer is a part time DPS

Yeah templar is a legacy addition into groups as healers

Although your post shows how awesome NB healers are, it lacks of one important aspect.

Mechanic of implementation, what skill or gear is demanded: demand on bar space, way of its using, area of effect. Can healer applied it anytime (kiting included) or they need to be with group or with boss. How long it goes, how hard it is to keep it uptime. Is necessary NB healer, or it is present with any NB in group.

If you describe the way of implementation, I could do then verification of how many of your point are valid.

So I will only address point 4 and point 9.

Point 4, organized group can stack only when mechanics allow it. Trials are full of battle, where semicircle is needed. Some mechanics force DD left formation and play specific way, do some task, carry out meteor / curse. It is useful, when they can stay at ritual radius.

Point 9, It has nothing to do with modern groups. Top DPS group could play trials different way for long time. With high DPS and ability to play mechanics, importance of healer decrease. OT or one of DDs can switch skills if mechanics demand two different healers.

It's hard to be polite when others are looking down on you. At least you are trying to understand the change unlike the stubborn ones.

I won't explain other points any deeper. You haven't mentioned them because you realize something is here.

We are making excuses on uptimes,bar space, and gear,

Gear wise

Nightblade actually thinking about it will be best at using roaring opportunitist next patch too. Also, you have even mentioned they are better DPS than them.

Just because they are better DPS doesn't mean they can't be healers. Many groups has a healer who is supposed to do good DPS too. What better than the class built to DPS and Heal at same time

Bar space wise there's support or group skills a DPS never will ever slot. Just doesn't make sense if it loses them DPS right?

An idea of bar slots for NB healer can be seen here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX7Pz6NGjRE&t=337s

Not how I would do it, but here you go.

Most of the time organized are stacking at least more than needing a purge.

Uptime wise it's not hard if you are skilled or practice.

So final point, you can just check ESO runs. It's Sorc + Warden or Warden + anything now. It's open season again this patch

We can continue argue who is the better class, but at the very least we know now nightblade is at least equal to templar. We should leave the underdog role to dk healers....


P.S

I forgot something, so status effects and minor vulnerability have nightblade stand next top tier classes of healers alone in trials. Nobody ever compares pvp healers so we won't go there, but they have a versatile skill set to go anywhere.