Market Reseach

pklemming

So, the idea of market research is to see if there is a need for the product before spending resources and time in to developing something.

I am curious at what point market research decided what ESO really needed was a card game. Personally, if I want a card game, there are a lot of good ones on the market already. The current feedback shows little to no interest in the game and I would rather you take the time to fix the plethora of issues the game currently has, rather than adding something very few people want.

You are losing people due to bugs and poor decision-making and this appears to continue that trend admirably. Please try listening to what people actually want.

For example, I would love to go in to Fang Lair and not have to wait for the zoo fight to spawn multiple times before it realises we are actually in valid locations. Same with Volenfell, last boss, where the fight resets, removing the HM, often causing a deliberate wipe in order to reset and try and get the thing in HM again.. Similar issues on Falkreath Hold golem boss that likes to reset mid way through the fight.

Or maybe the dungeon finder that randomly leaves people behind when the dungeon starts...

What I don't want is a new %$Q£^^£ card game!

Cuddlypuff

pklemming wrote: »

So, the idea of market research is to see if there is a need for the product before spending resources and time in to developing something.

I am curious at what point market research decided what ESO really needed was a card game. Personally, if I want a card game, there are a lot of good ones on the market already. The current feedback shows little to no interest in the game and I would rather you take the time to fix the plethora of issues the game currently has, rather than adding something very few people want.

You are losing people due to bugs and poor decision-making and this appears to continue that trend admirably. Please try listening to what people actually want.

For example, I would love to go in to Fang Lair and not have to wait for the zoo fight to spawn multiple times before it realises we are actually in valid locations. Same with Volenfell, last boss, where the fight resets, removing the HM, often causing a deliberate wipe in order to reset and try and get the thing in HM again.. Similar issues on Falkreath Hold golem boss that likes to reset mid way through the fight.

Or maybe the dungeon finder that randomly leaves people behind when the dungeon starts...

What I don't want is a new %$Q£^^£ card game!

Those boss respawning bugs are due to retaining in-combat status after skipping trash. You need to wipe. Vote kick pugs if they don't. Worst is before the chest room in Ruins of Mazzatun. You could be stuck there for 5 mins if you don't reset combat before starting.

Grizzbeorn

pklemming wrote: »

What I don't want is a new %$Q£^^£ card game!

So don't play the card game?

Jaraal

Yeah they wiped out all the achievements we worked so hard to get on our alts and killed replayability.... for an unpopular addition that cheapens the whole ESO experience. Not to mention the plethora of bugs introduced by AWA, as well as the drop in performance.

Makes you wonder what's really going on behind the scenes.

pklemming

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want instead of prioritising the massive number of bugs currently in game. The game issues are what are driving people away, not the lack of a card game.

pklemming

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

So, the idea of market research is to see if there is a need for the product before spending resources and time in to developing something.

I am curious at what point market research decided what ESO really needed was a card game. Personally, if I want a card game, there are a lot of good ones on the market already. The current feedback shows little to no interest in the game and I would rather you take the time to fix the plethora of issues the game currently has, rather than adding something very few people want.

You are losing people due to bugs and poor decision-making and this appears to continue that trend admirably. Please try listening to what people actually want.

For example, I would love to go in to Fang Lair and not have to wait for the zoo fight to spawn multiple times before it realises we are actually in valid locations. Same with Volenfell, last boss, where the fight resets, removing the HM, often causing a deliberate wipe in order to reset and try and get the thing in HM again.. Similar issues on Falkreath Hold golem boss that likes to reset mid way through the fight.

Or maybe the dungeon finder that randomly leaves people behind when the dungeon starts...

What I don't want is a new %$Q£^^£ card game!

Those boss respawning bugs are due to retaining in-combat status after skipping trash. You need to wipe. Vote kick pugs if they don't. Worst is before the chest room in Ruins of Mazzatun. You could be stuck there for 5 mins if you don't reset combat before starting.

Yeah, but if you are going for trifectas, or other achievements, wiping is not really a viable option.

Whilst there are some mobs stuck in walls now causing combat to not reset, this is not the case in with regards to the respawn. It appears to be a client/server desync regarding the location of the players. Each of these fights we are out of combat when we start, you can also easily replicate they bugs, which means it should be far easier to find than most intermittent issues.

rbfrgsp

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

So, the idea of market research is to see if there is a need for the product before spending resources and time in to developing something.

I am curious at what point market research decided what ESO really needed was a card game. Personally, if I want a card game, there are a lot of good ones on the market already. The current feedback shows little to no interest in the game and I would rather you take the time to fix the plethora of issues the game currently has, rather than adding something very few people want.

You are losing people due to bugs and poor decision-making and this appears to continue that trend admirably. Please try listening to what people actually want.

For example, I would love to go in to Fang Lair and not have to wait for the zoo fight to spawn multiple times before it realises we are actually in valid locations. Same with Volenfell, last boss, where the fight resets, removing the HM, often causing a deliberate wipe in order to reset and try and get the thing in HM again.. Similar issues on Falkreath Hold golem boss that likes to reset mid way through the fight.

Or maybe the dungeon finder that randomly leaves people behind when the dungeon starts...

What I don't want is a new %$Q£^^£ card game!

Those boss respawning bugs are due to retaining in-combat status after skipping trash. You need to wipe. Vote kick pugs if they don't. Worst is before the chest room in Ruins of Mazzatun. You could be stuck there for 5 mins if you don't reset combat before starting.

I'm not sure the boss respawn bug is due to player behaviour. It happens almost every time on the treehouse boss with the ghost cats in Selene's Web and there are no opportunities to skip the preceding mobs, beyond simply kiting them to the cliff edge, which I've never seen anybody do. This is only one example, but it's one that definitively shows the resets are not caused only by player behaviour.

Although I still agree with you when you advise to vote kick kiters...

Grizzbeorn

pklemming wrote: »

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want instead of prioritising the massive number of bugs currently in game. The game issues are what are driving people away, not the lack of a card game.

Content creation does not stop in the face of "game issues."
There will always be new content in a live game; if it wasn't a card game, it would have been some other new content.
And the "issues" continue to be worked on WHILE the new content is being created; separate departments with separate staff and budgets.

Larcomar

pklemming wrote: »

So, the idea of market research is to see if there is a need for the product before spending resources and time in to developing something.

I am curious at what point market research decided what ESO really needed was a card game.

Indeed, while it's prob not quite what you were going for, I'd broaden the question to ask what metrics Microsoft/Zenimax use to measure success? Obviously there's a cash bottom line. But I assume there are a load of others most MMOs are going to use like daily active users, session length, retention rate, churn etc I only ask because it feels like an awful lot of the stuff they do, like for instance the current event, is simply geared to get people to log in, claim their tickets, do a writ or two for the box and not much else. It feels like there's an emphasis on bigging up daily logins over user experience.

Cuddlypuff

Glitched bosses are 100% due to pugs refusing to wipe / straggling too far behind / doing unexpected stuff. I've never encountered a single boss glitch when duoing. Selene's Web ghost cat is probably stuck/hidden behind a branch on the left hand side of the area if you don't see the boss spawning in time.

EF321

Whoever is suspected to have aggro can jusr leave instance and port back to drop it.

Coatmagic

It can not be, because when doing achievs where everything needs to die with your normal group of peeps that you do such achievs with, and these same things keep happening over and over and over, well, it's not just pugs and it's certainly not just someone has aggro -_-

pklemming

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Glitched bosses are 100% due to pugs refusing to wipe / straggling too far behind / doing unexpected stuff. I've never encountered a single boss glitch when duoing. Selene's Web ghost cat is probably stuck/hidden behind a branch on the left hand side of the area if you don't see the boss spawning in time.

We run dungeon prog groups. I can assure you they are not too far behind. Having to wipe is NOT a game mechanic for finishing dungones. You are saying wiping is a viable mechanic for trifectas, right? Just want to make this clear.

I would respectfully say, you need to do more content, especially the dlc trifectas.

I will repeat.... This is a desync issue.

Kisakee

pklemming wrote: »

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want

Stop assuming, you don't know what most of the people want. Nobody knows.

Jaraal

Kisakee wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want

Stop assuming, you don't know what most of the people want. Nobody knows.

We do when it comes to the card game.


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/602720/how-interested-are-you-in-playing-tales-of-tribute-the-card-game/p1

Grizzbeorn

Jaraal wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want

Stop assuming, you don't know what most of the people want. Nobody knows.

We do when it comes to the card game.


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/602720/how-interested-are-you-in-playing-tales-of-tribute-the-card-game/p1

Forum polls are meaningless. Not even the entirety of the forum community responds to forum polls, and the whole forum community itself is a tiny fraction of the entire game community.

Darkstorne

Jaraal wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want

Stop assuming, you don't know what most of the people want. Nobody knows.

We do when it comes to the card game.


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/602720/how-interested-are-you-in-playing-tales-of-tribute-the-card-game/p1

Forum polls really don't mean much. I'll bet they have some good in-game data that shows a significant chunk of the player base really enjoys the non-combat systems in this game, like housing, fishing, and antiquities. In which case, it makes a lot of sense to add something new to that pool, alongside the standard Chapter expectations like a new zone, trial, and storyline.

Honestly, I think the card game would be much more warmly received on the forums too, if it wasn't for the perception that it's essentially replaced a new class or skill line.

Jaraal

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want

Stop assuming, you don't know what most of the people want. Nobody knows.

We do when it comes to the card game.


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/602720/how-interested-are-you-in-playing-tales-of-tribute-the-card-game/p1

Forum polls are meaningless. Not even the entirety of the forum community responds to forum polls, and the whole forum community itself is a tiny fraction of the entire game community.

So you're saying that if 70% of the forum poll responders don't like / won't play the card game, that it's possible that 70% of non-forum poll responders will like playing it? How does that logic work?

EnerG

I personally love the card game, and hate when people think the same devs fixing bugs are the ones making the content, it is diffrent teams. The game has a right to exist as its not taking manpower away from the teams that are working hard to fix the issues. The devs maynot respond but they PLAY their game and they SEE these issues, and multiples streams with rich and the team have stated this as much, they've even said they have a full team working on cyrodiil but it will take a while, I wish people would have more patience, the game just turned 8, and im sure at this point all the devs are working with inherited code to make it as smooth as possible, trust me they want the game to play as smooth as possible for everyone

Cuddlypuff

Darkstorne wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want

Stop assuming, you don't know what most of the people want. Nobody knows.

We do when it comes to the card game.


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/602720/how-interested-are-you-in-playing-tales-of-tribute-the-card-game/p1

Forum polls really don't mean much. I'll bet they have some good in-game data that shows a significant chunk of the player base really enjoys the non-combat systems in this game, like housing, fishing, and antiquities. In which case, it makes a lot of sense to add something new to that pool, alongside the standard Chapter expectations like a new zone, trial, and storyline.

Honestly, I think the card game would be much more warmly received on the forums too, if it wasn't for the perception that it's essentially replaced a new class or skill line.

Maybe they should have pitched it as a lightweight system that would take load off all the other systems to improve overall performance. At least one can hope. Could you imagine card game lag?

Kisakee

Darkstorne wrote: »

Honestly, I think the card game would be much more warmly received on the forums too, if it wasn't for the perception that it's essentially replaced a new class or skill line.

I for one had some fun with companions in the beginning but in the long run they became absolutely forgettable. They have no use to me except Bastian being a constant victim to my housing traps and torture gadgets.

On the other hand i'm absolutely excited and i'm sure it will be loved by many out there over time. I would take it over a new skill line or class anytime.

Jaraal

Cuddlypuff wrote: »

Darkstorne wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want

Stop assuming, you don't know what most of the people want. Nobody knows.

We do when it comes to the card game.


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/602720/how-interested-are-you-in-playing-tales-of-tribute-the-card-game/p1

Forum polls really don't mean much. I'll bet they have some good in-game data that shows a significant chunk of the player base really enjoys the non-combat systems in this game, like housing, fishing, and antiquities. In which case, it makes a lot of sense to add something new to that pool, alongside the standard Chapter expectations like a new zone, trial, and storyline.

Honestly, I think the card game would be much more warmly received on the forums too, if it wasn't for the perception that it's essentially replaced a new class or skill line.

Maybe they should have pitched it as a lightweight system that would take load off all the other systems to improve overall performance. At least one can hope. Could you imagine card game lag?

Well they said the main reason they axed most of our achievements was to make room for the card game (and other) achievements going forward, because the "billion"+ achievements were a performance problem. So, yes, the card game will hog resources. How much is yet to be determined.

Grizzbeorn

Jaraal wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want

Stop assuming, you don't know what most of the people want. Nobody knows.

We do when it comes to the card game.


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/602720/how-interested-are-you-in-playing-tales-of-tribute-the-card-game/p1

Forum polls are meaningless. Not even the entirety of the forum community responds to forum polls, and the whole forum community itself is a tiny fraction of the entire game community.

So you're saying that if 70% of the forum poll responders don't like / won't play the card game, that it's possible that 70% of non-forum poll responders will like playing it? How does that logic work?

I'm saying that you have absolutely no clue how many people don't like the card game, so claiming that it's the majority of the game community is absurd.

Syldras

Do you really think that a big company with several thousands employees like Zenimax doesn't do any market research so you have to explain it to them?

I'm quite sure that they do research already, although the results they get don't necessarily have to meet my or most forum people's personal taste. Remember: We're a minority here, I see the same names here all the time, not sure how many we are, but we're just a tiny group of people compared to several millions(!) who play ESO without ever visiting the forums.

There were things many in this forum complained about beforehand, but I see them utilized in ESO all the time. One year ago you had many people who complained they never asked for companions (and that Zeni should rather improve this or that, add a new class instead, more PvP, whatever), but now you see masses of companions running around everywhere. Also I've seen quite a few crown store mounts already that I found beyond ugly (and made me wonder who would ever use something like that), but I see many people using them, so there seem indeed to be a lot of people who like them, even if I can't really comprehend that because I seem to have a different sense of aesthetics. So I think Zeni does do neccessary market research beforehand and with the new card game probably the same wil happen: Forum people might not really like it (now), but there will be enough people who play it. We'll see.

Kisakee

Jaraal wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want

Stop assuming, you don't know what most of the people want. Nobody knows.

We do when it comes to the card game.


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/602720/how-interested-are-you-in-playing-tales-of-tribute-the-card-game/p1

Forum polls are meaningless. Not even the entirety of the forum community responds to forum polls, and the whole forum community itself is a tiny fraction of the entire game community.

So you're saying that if 70% of the forum poll responders don't like / won't play the card game, that it's possible that 70% of non-forum poll responders will like playing it? How does that logic work?

Even if 1.000 people in forums would say that they're not going to play the card game that's absolutely nothing to the whole community. Make that 100% of the forum users it's still meaningless in the big picture.

Nobody knows and will never know how many people are going to actually play it to the point where there is data. That's pure logic, you can't deny this.

Jaraal

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want

Stop assuming, you don't know what most of the people want. Nobody knows.

We do when it comes to the card game.


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/602720/how-interested-are-you-in-playing-tales-of-tribute-the-card-game/p1

Forum polls are meaningless. Not even the entirety of the forum community responds to forum polls, and the whole forum community itself is a tiny fraction of the entire game community.

So you're saying that if 70% of the forum poll responders don't like / won't play the card game, that it's possible that 70% of non-forum poll responders will like playing it? How does that logic work?

I'm saying that you have absolutely no clue how many people don't like the card game, so claiming that it's the majority of the game community is absurd.

So you're saying that the 70% of players responding are lying? Or that I am reading the poll wrong?

Kisakee

Jaraal wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want

Stop assuming, you don't know what most of the people want. Nobody knows.

We do when it comes to the card game.


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/602720/how-interested-are-you-in-playing-tales-of-tribute-the-card-game/p1

Forum polls are meaningless. Not even the entirety of the forum community responds to forum polls, and the whole forum community itself is a tiny fraction of the entire game community.

So you're saying that if 70% of the forum poll responders don't like / won't play the card game, that it's possible that 70% of non-forum poll responders will like playing it? How does that logic work?

I'm saying that you have absolutely no clue how many people don't like the card game, so claiming that it's the majority of the game community is absurd.

So you're saying that the 70% of players responding are lying? Or that I am reading the poll wrong?

Your interpretation of things is off, that's it.

Grizzbeorn

Jaraal wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want

Stop assuming, you don't know what most of the people want. Nobody knows.

We do when it comes to the card game.


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/602720/how-interested-are-you-in-playing-tales-of-tribute-the-card-game/p1

Forum polls are meaningless. Not even the entirety of the forum community responds to forum polls, and the whole forum community itself is a tiny fraction of the entire game community.

So you're saying that if 70% of the forum poll responders don't like / won't play the card game, that it's possible that 70% of non-forum poll responders will like playing it? How does that logic work?

I'm saying that you have absolutely no clue how many people don't like the card game, so claiming that it's the majority of the game community is absurd.

So you're saying that the 70% of players responding are lying? Or that I am reading the poll wrong?

How many people frequent this forum? You don't know.
And even then, not everyone who frequents the forum takes part in the polls, so, how many people, of the people who frequent this forum, does that 70% represent? You don't know, because you can't answer the first question.
How much of the over-all community frequents the forum? You don't know.

So 70% of you don't know is how much, exactly?

You can't make extrapolations based on numbers you don't know.

Syldras

417 people were voting in that poll. The number is given next to the poll title. How many people play ESO regularly?

Northwold

Jaraal wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Grizzbeorn wrote: »

Jaraal wrote: »

Kisakee wrote: »

pklemming wrote: »

Playing(or not playing) the card game is not the issue. It is that resources were funnelled to something most of the play base did not want

Stop assuming, you don't know what most of the people want. Nobody knows.

We do when it comes to the card game.


https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/602720/how-interested-are-you-in-playing-tales-of-tribute-the-card-game/p1

Forum polls are meaningless. Not even the entirety of the forum community responds to forum polls, and the whole forum community itself is a tiny fraction of the entire game community.

So you're saying that if 70% of the forum poll responders don't like / won't play the card game, that it's possible that 70% of non-forum poll responders will like playing it? How does that logic work?

I'm saying that you have absolutely no clue how many people don't like the card game, so claiming that it's the majority of the game community is absurd.

So you're saying that the 70% of players responding are lying? Or that I am reading the poll wrong?

The poster is saying that the userbase of the forums is both too small and too self-selecting to provide any kind of useful picture of what the userbase of the game as a whole wants. If you don't believe this, look at the steam forums, look at reddit -- both used by vastly more players. Virtually none of the things that people get excited about here people get excited about there.

On polls, in any case, the way most people phrase their polls on here is so skewed to the posters' own viewpoints as to denude the results of any meaning. For a poll to provide useful results it must provide clear, neutrally phrased options and nothing else. Too often here the answers are coupled with some sort of spin on what the author thinks you must be thinking when you respond. If such polls were suggested for market research, the pollster would refuse to conduct them.

Grizzbeorn

Syldras wrote: »

417 people were voting in that poll. The number is given next to the poll title.

I figured that was a given.
But that is the only known number. (other than 70% of that number which is 291.9)
292 people, of the 417 who bothered to vote, don't like the card game.

So what percentage of forum-dwellers does 292 represent?
We don't know, because we don't know how many forum-dwellers there are, so we can't go on to extrapolate how much of the over-all community dislikes the game.