why arent dungeon sets tradeable????

Sparxlost

i think the whole play how you want mentality gives you guys a reason to utilize the loop-hole of popular opinion and say that its not pay to win

but malacaths band as well as other mythics definitely qualifies as "Pay for convenience"


[/quote]

I disagree with the light pay to win term. It is either pay to win or it isn't. In this case it isn't. Not really pay for convenience either. At this point it might be pay to catch up. [/quote]

Sparxlost

Mythgard1967 wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Because you should be able to do the content to get the sets. If you can't do the content, you don't need the set.

THIS...you dont need Trial gear to do Overland. You dont need Dungeon gear to run Overland. If you dont want to do Dungeons or Trials...why would you need Dungeon or Trial gear?????

by this logic you would then have to farm your own resources to craft your own items and consumables as paying for them at vendors would completely ruin the game

AvalonRanger

Some dungeon gear has very special function(like monster set), and it's hard to get.
So, developer try to maintain fair game balance. Maybe that's reason.
If you can get high performance dungeon gear at the guild shop by just gold,
player's effort will become meaningless.

SeaGtGruff

ixthUA wrote: »

Pay to win is when you can pay cash to get combat advantage.

Not according to my understanding of the term. But if you replace "can" with "must" then it would be "pay to win" as I've been led to understand it-- "Pay to win is when you must pay cash to get combat advantage."

ixthUA

kargen27 wrote: »

I disagree with the light pay to win term. It is either pay to win or it isn't. In this case it isn't. Not really pay for convenience either. At this point it might be pay to catch up.

World is colorful, not just good and bad. In ESO you can buy crowns with real world money, sell crowns for gold, use gold to buy veteran trial carry runs for perfected equipment, then use gold to buy golden equipment upgrade materials (including jewelry). Is it not pay to win by your definition?
Pay 2 win existed long before cash shops, which were introduced as a way to monetize the grey market of game items and currencies.

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

Not according to my understanding of the term. But if you replace "can" with "must" then it would be "pay to win" as I've been led to understand it-- "Pay to win is when you must pay cash to get combat advantage."

Veteran trials are far not for everyone, but everyone can sell crowns and buy carry veteran trial runs.

In my understanding ESO is a light p2w game. I will give example of a heavy p2w game.
Normal player, paying 7 USD per month for subscription (in asia its how much subscription costs) and playing 30-60 minutes per day can generate 2-3 millions of gold income per month. Hardcore no-life player can play for 10-14 hours per day and generate 20 millions per month. P2W player can buy as much gold with cash as they want.
Normal player has 30-35k life and does 75% damage. They can spend billions of gold and upgrade to 55-60k life and 100% damage. In 1v1 PvP, skill matters the most, but between equally skilled players the one with 60k life will win. Everyone can play for 12 hours a day, right?

Fizzyapple

Before One Tamriel you could and I actually find set items that people have been sitting on for sale at guild traders from time to time. I bought a bow of the set Ice Furnace and still have it unbound. I plan to pass it on to someone and see how long we can keep it unbound and floating around in the world. I saw a shield for sale at a guild trader in Rawl'kha about a week ago for 450k. They stopped that for a good reason I'm guessing but I have no idea what that reason was. I'm sure there are bunches of people here with strong opinions either way. Probably someone with a spread sheet or w/e jk. It's a really great question though.

SeaGtGruff

I agree with the poster who basically said that we'll never really know unless ZOS says, and until then all we're doing is voicing our speculations.

My speculation is that it's to ensure that players must actually run a particular dungeon to get gear from that dungeon, so the players will be strongly encouraged (that is, nudged) to run dungeons and use the Group & Activity Finder. Additionally, to get gear from any DLC dungeons the players will need to buy (or else "rent" via ESO Plus) those DLCs.

Gaeliannas

ixthUA wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

I disagree with the light pay to win term. It is either pay to win or it isn't. In this case it isn't. Not really pay for convenience either. At this point it might be pay to catch up.

World is colorful, not just good and bad. In ESO you can buy crowns with real world money, sell crowns for gold, use gold to buy veteran trial carry runs for perfected equipment, then use gold to buy golden equipment upgrade materials (including jewelry). Is it not pay to win by your definition?
Pay 2 win existed long before cash shops, which were introduced as a way to monetize the grey market of game items and currencies.

No it is not PTW. PTW implies you must pay cash to gain an advantage over other players, and there is no in-game way to achieve that same advantage. Being as there are in-game ways to achieve any of those things, they are not PTW.

If ESO sold a sword or staff that guaranteed you to hit 130K DPS regardless of your skill level, that would be PTW. If they sold a Companion that did 50K DPS or HPS, that would be PTW as well. Converting gold obtained by any means into carries for gear available to everyone who does the content normally, is not PTW.

drsalvation

ESO is pretty much a solo experience in a multiplayer world at this point, dungeons and trials are the only places where it's (almost, not necessarily true in most vanilla dungeons) mandatory to play online with other people to help you out.
Thing is, the game is so easy, there's really no reason to grind for dungeon and trial sets UNLESS you intend on running dungeons and trials, which makes it redundant. You ONLY need dungeon and trial sets to run other dungeons and trials so you can get more dungeons and trials sets to run other types of dungeons and trials.

There's a whole veteran overland thread going on,
but I'll just say it here again, we don't need VO, we need an instanced, or at least a veteran version of main quests.
I want to be scared of Molag Bal, but the dreugh at the end of fungal grotto is tougher.
With a veteran story mode, grinding for those dungeon and trial sets would feel more rewarding and important as now you're farming them to save the dadgummed world.

But since that's not happening, and it doesn't look like they'd ever make veteran story mode, then why would you ever bother with dungeon and trial sets?

They're flashy, but you won't need them for anything outside of dungeons and trials (or some PvP builds)
And if you're referring to monster sets, Golden would occasionally sell them every weekend (I have never done veteran imperial city dungeons but that's how I got molag kena's set).

In the end, by not allowing us to trade, it's the only incentive we have to still play online with other players.

ixthUA

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

No it is not PTW. PTW implies you must pay cash to gain an advantage over other players, and there is no in-game way to achieve that same advantage. Being as there are in-game ways to achieve any of those things, they are not PTW.

If ESO sold a sword or staff that guaranteed you to hit 130K DPS regardless of your skill level, that would be PTW. If they sold a Companion that did 50K DPS or HPS, that would be PTW as well. Converting gold obtained by any means into carries for gear available to everyone who does the content normally, is not PTW.

Pay to win existed before cash shops. Cash shops became popular around 2007-2008, before that we had the good old grey market. Even now there are grey markets, selling items directly for cash, avoiding the official cash shop.
Golden jewelry is harder to get, it may take weeks or even months, so ESO is a light p2w game in my opinion.
Other MMOs have items that take years of farming to get. They are available without paying more than subscription, but not everyone can afford years of second job to get them.

Parrot1986

Getting gear is extremely player friendly now with curated drops and set construction. Dungeons which get no gear difference for running in normal as well make it even easier.

Changing them to BoE wouldn’t make any sense and is completely unnecessary.

Kiralyn2000

ixthUA wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

No it is not PTW. PTW implies you must pay cash to gain an advantage over other players, and there is no in-game way to achieve that same advantage. Being as there are in-game ways to achieve any of those things, they are not PTW.

If ESO sold a sword or staff that guaranteed you to hit 130K DPS regardless of your skill level, that would be PTW. If they sold a Companion that did 50K DPS or HPS, that would be PTW as well. Converting gold obtained by any means into carries for gear available to everyone who does the content normally, is not PTW.

Pay to win existed before cash shops. Cash shops became popular around 2007-2008, before that we had the good old grey market. Even now there are grey markets, selling items directly for cash, avoiding the official cash shop.
Golden jewelry is harder to get, it may take weeks or even months, so ESO is a light p2w game in my opinion.
Other MMOs have items that take years of farming to get. They are available without paying more than subscription, but not everyone can afford years of second job to get them.

No. Pay to Win is when you can only get the advantage with cash - ie, people are actually forced to pay $ in order to compete. Like open-world/FFA PvP games where in order to enchant your gear to full power you have to buy "boosters" from the cash shop; and people can loot your body to take that cash-boosted gear from you.... unless you pay cash for the "can't loot you" insurance. Stuff like that.

If it can be earned via in-game methods, it's not pay to win. Because you can get it without spending cash.


(took a peek at an Aeria f2p game once. Those guys were crazy - they had monthly "tiered spender" contests, where if you spent enough $ in the cash shop, you got big bonuses. To the level of "spend $1000, get to ask a GM for a favor.")


edit: you know, this is literally the first time I've ever seen someone say that p2w existed before cash shops.

Amottica

It is to encourage players to do the content. That is why all dropped gear from instances are BoP and only tradable to those who were in the group when it dropped. The skill altering weapons are probably the best example of this since many great builds include them.

BXR_Lonestar

Dungeon sets are some of the most powerful sets in the game. These sets are always at or near the top of Meta for their respective roles:

Crimson Oath
Spell Power Cure
Elemental Catalyst
Medusa
Kinra
Tzogvin

There's a lot of other very powerful dungeon sets out there, that just names a few of them. Not to mention the monster helms.

By making them non-tradable, they're trying to give people the incentive to go complete the dungeons on veteran difficulty. Basically: you want the best sets? You have to go complete the content. Which I don't have a problem with.

El_Borracho

Sparxlost wrote: »

Mythgard1967 wrote: »

El_Borracho wrote: »

Because you should be able to do the content to get the sets. If you can't do the content, you don't need the set.

THIS...you dont need Trial gear to do Overland. You dont need Dungeon gear to run Overland. If you dont want to do Dungeons or Trials...why would you need Dungeon or Trial gear?????

by this logic you would then have to farm your own resources to craft your own items and consumables as paying for them at vendors would completely ruin the game

Comparing buying crafting mats to buying a set of Perfected Bahsei's is not in the same universe. And you don't need either to run overland. As you actually start the game in rags with base weapons.

I understand the frustration of newer players with this game. I once thought that a set of Vicious Ophidian would answer all of my DPS questions. I got a set. It did not. Learning how to do a rotation and playing the game did. Even now, upgrading from Siroria/Medusa to Bahseis/Kinras does not result in a 50K jump in DPS. Is it better? Yes, but its not extraordinarily better. But it took the experience of playing the game to understand that

Aardappelboom

Isn't this also to incentivize people to buy DLC or ESO+?

If you want a set from a DLC dungeon you have to own it in some way, binding the gear to DLC releases effectively allows for them to be moneytized as a feature for a particular DLC.

It's pretty clever, really.

DarrowLykos

This is so everyone must run the same dungeons over and over again

spartaxoxo

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

No it is not PTW. PTW implies you must pay cash to gain an advantage over other players, and there is no in-game way to achieve that same advantage. Being as there are in-game ways to achieve any of those things, they are not PTW.

If ESO sold a sword or staff that guaranteed you to hit 130K DPS regardless of your skill level, that would be PTW. If they sold a Companion that did 50K DPS or HPS, that would be PTW as well. Converting gold obtained by any means into carries for gear available to everyone who does the content normally, is not PTW.

Pay to win existed before cash shops. Cash shops became popular around 2007-2008, before that we had the good old grey market. Even now there are grey markets, selling items directly for cash, avoiding the official cash shop.
Golden jewelry is harder to get, it may take weeks or even months, so ESO is a light p2w game in my opinion.
Other MMOs have items that take years of farming to get. They are available without paying more than subscription, but not everyone can afford years of second job to get them.

No. Pay to Win is when you can only get the advantage with cash - ie, people are actually forced to pay $ in order to compete.

Hard disagree. If paying gives a significant advantage over not paying in terms of impacting gameplay performance when in competition with other players, then it's pay2win. The DLC model is typically excluded from that conversation as it's considered a new version of the game rather than a direct cash advantage.

karekiz

ixthUA wrote: »

It would make game more p2w. It is enough that you can p2w golden equipment upgrade, - with dungeon/trial sets tradeable newcomers would be able to sell crowns and get best equipment in game without doing a single dungeon/trial.

WTS ZENS/KINRA/TZO DAGGERS RUN CARRY - 125K - 100% GAURENTEED!


Wait what were we talking about?

MidniteOwl1913

ixthUA wrote: »

Cardhwion wrote: »

How please is golden upgrade P2W? You cannot buy materials with real world money.

You can sell crowns (which cost real world money) to players for gold, then use gold to buy golden upgrade materials. If golden upgrade materials were bound - it would be a different matter, but i think a huge number of people would dislike this.

I thought this was against the terms of service?

carly

They aren't tradeable because there has to be some reward for running a dungeon and taking the time to learn the mechanics to successfully complete them. I would be quite irate if, after investing time and effort to run a dungeon/trial, someone was just able to buy the same item I worked so hard for. For many of us it's the challenge and the sense of accomplishment when we succeed that keeps us interested in the game.

ixthUA

MidniteOwl1913 wrote: »

I thought this was against the terms of service?

This is happening all the time and is in high demand. On PC-EU current price can go as high as 2500 gold for 1 crown, making it 356k gold per 1 dollar.

Sparxlost

carly wrote: »

They aren't tradeable because there has to be some reward for running a dungeon and taking the time to learn the mechanics to successfully complete them. I would be quite irate if, after investing time and effort to run a dungeon/trial, someone was just able to buy the same item I worked so hard for. For many of us it's the challenge and the sense of accomplishment when we succeed that keeps us interested in the game.

[snip]

there is literally no shame in playing a dungeon purely for the fun of helping npcs involved with its quest AND there is no shame in not wanting to have to unnimmersively play through the same dungeon over and over again just to get the set pieces you are missing.....

Its not just about the loot for everyone and i dont think the game should cater towards people like that..

[Edit for minor minor bait.]

Sparxlost

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

No it is not PTW. PTW implies you must pay cash to gain an advantage over other players, and there is no in-game way to achieve that same advantage. Being as there are in-game ways to achieve any of those things, they are not PTW.

If ESO sold a sword or staff that guaranteed you to hit 130K DPS regardless of your skill level, that would be PTW. If they sold a Companion that did 50K DPS or HPS, that would be PTW as well. Converting gold obtained by any means into carries for gear available to everyone who does the content normally, is not PTW.

Pay to win existed before cash shops. Cash shops became popular around 2007-2008, before that we had the good old grey market. Even now there are grey markets, selling items directly for cash, avoiding the official cash shop.
Golden jewelry is harder to get, it may take weeks or even months, so ESO is a light p2w game in my opinion.
Other MMOs have items that take years of farming to get. They are available without paying more than subscription, but not everyone can afford years of second job to get them.

No. Pay to Win is when you can only get the advantage with cash - ie, people are actually forced to pay $ in order to compete.

Hard disagree. If paying gives a significant advantage over not paying in terms of impacting gameplay performance when in competition with other players, then it's pay2win. The DLC model is typically excluded from that conversation as it's considered a new version of the game rather than a direct cash advantage.

it is all part of the same game...
mythic sets are OP and not tradable, so that means you either have to buy the dlc or grind enough gold to convince someone to buy it for you.. either way the only way someone gains access to this meta is through cash shop making it pay 2 win

Sparxlost

I think if they want a system like this they should just get rid of the trading aspect entirely.....
and then they could make npc vendors actually sell useful stuff..
think about it
everyone farms their own stuff and can occasionally afford upgrade materials from npcs as they arent wasting gold on stupid stuff like crowns and whatever people spend gold on..
that's what you want
right??
of course this would have a severe impact on community health as peopel would have to start promoting their social events with real money instead of gold

Leftover_Pizza

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

No it is not PTW. PTW implies you must pay cash to gain an advantage over other players, and there is no in-game way to achieve that same advantage. Being as there are in-game ways to achieve any of those things, they are not PTW.

If ESO sold a sword or staff that guaranteed you to hit 130K DPS regardless of your skill level, that would be PTW. If they sold a Companion that did 50K DPS or HPS, that would be PTW as well. Converting gold obtained by any means into carries for gear available to everyone who does the content normally, is not PTW.

Pay to win existed before cash shops. Cash shops became popular around 2007-2008, before that we had the good old grey market. Even now there are grey markets, selling items directly for cash, avoiding the official cash shop.
Golden jewelry is harder to get, it may take weeks or even months, so ESO is a light p2w game in my opinion.
Other MMOs have items that take years of farming to get. They are available without paying more than subscription, but not everyone can afford years of second job to get them.

No. Pay to Win is when you can only get the advantage with cash - ie, people are actually forced to pay $ in order to compete.

Hard disagree. If paying gives a significant advantage over not paying in terms of impacting gameplay performance when in competition with other players, then it's pay2win. The DLC model is typically excluded from that conversation as it's considered a new version of the game rather than a direct cash advantage.

Nope. That's Pay To Not Play. P2W is what @Kiralyn2000 says it is.

Fabi95

Aardappelboom wrote: »

Isn't this also to incentivize people to buy DLC or ESO+?

If you want a set from a DLC dungeon you have to own it in some way, binding the gear to DLC releases effectively allows for them to be moneytized as a feature for a particular DLC.

Bingo, this is it. A previous post has compiled a nice short overview of great sets:

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

Dungeon sets are some of the most powerful sets in the game. These sets are always at or near the top of Meta for their respective roles:

Crimson Oath
Spell Power Cure
Elemental Catalyst
Medusa
Kinra
Tzogvin

Now count how many of these are DLC or base game. Hint: Only 1 of them is base game.*
*technically "1" because Imperial City counts as DLC, even when it's free to obtain fortunately.

Amottica

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

No it is not PTW. PTW implies you must pay cash to gain an advantage over other players, and there is no in-game way to achieve that same advantage. Being as there are in-game ways to achieve any of those things, they are not PTW.

If ESO sold a sword or staff that guaranteed you to hit 130K DPS regardless of your skill level, that would be PTW. If they sold a Companion that did 50K DPS or HPS, that would be PTW as well. Converting gold obtained by any means into carries for gear available to everyone who does the content normally, is not PTW.

Pay to win existed before cash shops. Cash shops became popular around 2007-2008, before that we had the good old grey market. Even now there are grey markets, selling items directly for cash, avoiding the official cash shop.
Golden jewelry is harder to get, it may take weeks or even months, so ESO is a light p2w game in my opinion.
Other MMOs have items that take years of farming to get. They are available without paying more than subscription, but not everyone can afford years of second job to get them.

No. Pay to Win is when you can only get the advantage with cash - ie, people are actually forced to pay $ in order to compete.

Hard disagree. If paying gives a significant advantage over not paying in terms of impacting gameplay performance when in competition with other players, then it's pay2win. The DLC model is typically excluded from that conversation as it's considered a new version of the game rather than a direct cash advantage.

Zenimax opens up the DLCs for all to play every year, I think at least twice. That removes the P2W argument concerning teh DLC model.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

No it is not PTW. PTW implies you must pay cash to gain an advantage over other players, and there is no in-game way to achieve that same advantage. Being as there are in-game ways to achieve any of those things, they are not PTW.

If ESO sold a sword or staff that guaranteed you to hit 130K DPS regardless of your skill level, that would be PTW. If they sold a Companion that did 50K DPS or HPS, that would be PTW as well. Converting gold obtained by any means into carries for gear available to everyone who does the content normally, is not PTW.

Pay to win existed before cash shops. Cash shops became popular around 2007-2008, before that we had the good old grey market. Even now there are grey markets, selling items directly for cash, avoiding the official cash shop.
Golden jewelry is harder to get, it may take weeks or even months, so ESO is a light p2w game in my opinion.
Other MMOs have items that take years of farming to get. They are available without paying more than subscription, but not everyone can afford years of second job to get them.

No. Pay to Win is when you can only get the advantage with cash - ie, people are actually forced to pay $ in order to compete.

Hard disagree. If paying gives a significant advantage over not paying in terms of impacting gameplay performance when in competition with other players, then it's pay2win. The DLC model is typically excluded from that conversation as it's considered a new version of the game rather than a direct cash advantage.

Zenimax opens up the DLCs for all to play every year, I think at least twice. That removes the P2W argument concerning teh DLC model.

"The DLC model is typically excluded..." means that I'm saying that DLC are not p2w.

spartaxoxo

Leftover_Pizza wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ixthUA wrote: »

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

No it is not PTW. PTW implies you must pay cash to gain an advantage over other players, and there is no in-game way to achieve that same advantage. Being as there are in-game ways to achieve any of those things, they are not PTW.

If ESO sold a sword or staff that guaranteed you to hit 130K DPS regardless of your skill level, that would be PTW. If they sold a Companion that did 50K DPS or HPS, that would be PTW as well. Converting gold obtained by any means into carries for gear available to everyone who does the content normally, is not PTW.

Pay to win existed before cash shops. Cash shops became popular around 2007-2008, before that we had the good old grey market. Even now there are grey markets, selling items directly for cash, avoiding the official cash shop.
Golden jewelry is harder to get, it may take weeks or even months, so ESO is a light p2w game in my opinion.
Other MMOs have items that take years of farming to get. They are available without paying more than subscription, but not everyone can afford years of second job to get them.

No. Pay to Win is when you can only get the advantage with cash - ie, people are actually forced to pay $ in order to compete.

Hard disagree. If paying gives a significant advantage over not paying in terms of impacting gameplay performance when in competition with other players, then it's pay2win. The DLC model is typically excluded from that conversation as it's considered a new version of the game rather than a direct cash advantage.

Nope. That's Pay To Not Play. P2W is what says it is.

P2W wouldn't even be a term if it was that extremely narrow. P2W is when you can buy competitive advantages, and not that advantages that are exclusive exclusive to cash. Nearly every notorious p2w game had mechanisms for obtaining the paid items or similar items in game. But they typically were either of lower quality or had massive time gates that made the playing field extremely unlevel.

For example, Perfect World International was a notoriously p2w game with people spending a couple thousand dollars to get the best gear in the best refinements. Or you could spend a couple years farming it yourself. The end result was the vast majority of pvpers being rich guys and their buddies, or people who were in guilds where big groups worked to gear someone up so they could pvp. People in unpaid gear were in "PVE" gear.

That is pretty straightforwardly p2w.