ESO's Content Creators are moving on

DagenHawk

Synaptic wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed how a lot of ESO's youtubers/streamers, especially those that focused on PvP have moved on to greener pastures in the wake of Update 33 ?

If you'll go on Twitch you'll notice most of the streamers there are PvP players who try their best to make interesting and fun builds and theorycraft along with their respective communities only to then go in Cyrodiil and be faced with severe performance issues which is just bad publicity for the game as a whole if you ask me.

It feels like every other ESO youtuber I watch has some gripe with the game, be it performance or the lack of balancing.

And it's hard to blame them. During streams developers have talked about how one of this game's strength's is PvP, specifically the three faction war in Cyrodiil. Meanwhile Cyrodiil hasn't received any significant updates in 8 years which to me is weird considering that statement. But I guess we all know how the devs really feel about the PvP community as many of us have seen their reaction on a certain Dev's stream when questioned on this topic.

Performance issues aside it's also strange how they barely ever add incentives such as earnable mounts or skins for PvP but you can find all these and more in PvE with every new update, not to mention all the store items.
Let's be honest, the Dragonguard Berserker style for example is not a PvP style, it's a style that can be obtained from a PvP area just by killing the mobs there, no PvP required.

There's also the matter of how badly Update 33 broke PvP.
I won't go into class specifics but everyone's running around with resto staves on their backbar, with insane survivability and no one dies anymore in PvP
I've had multiple occasions where I would run into someone in Imperial City, we would fight for about 20 minutes and then we'd both give up on the fight and go about or day because we simply couldn't kill each other, maybe if we fought for another 20minutes and one of us made a mistake or failed to reapply buffs/heals. And this happens a lot for other people as well (unless you're a Caluurion Stamblade and you find someone that doesn't have 100% upkeep on their buffs)
And we knew this would happen, the PTS feedback thread was full of people suggesting this would make the PvP meta worse than it already was yet they implemented everything without making any changes at all anyway.

And I understand the PvP community is considerably smaller because I know some comments will point this out but I still think that's not an excuse for the complete neglect it's seen over the years in a game that used to pride itself on the PvP aspect.

I'm trying my best not to be negative because despite everything I still think it's a great game but I just feel like as a community we should point these things out more in hopes of having them looked at (at the very least) by the developers.

PVP streamers have moved on because PVP is a hyper niece part of ESO ...And honestly ESO is a game you play, not a game you watch other people play.

you can kick the corpse of PVP as much as you want it just isn't going to get up at this point. Elder Scroll games are not about PVP or Raid or Die...TES is about questing alone or with your friends, it is about exploration , and it's about crafting, building something unique.

ESO will never be a PVP game, it will never be a raid game...it is baffling why those handful of people that want that type of game sticks around.

SerafinaWaterstar

Why are the Twitch streamer numbers considered indicative of the ‘health’ of the game if it has never really been a big aspect of the game?

Again, and only anecdotal, the majority of people I know across 5 guilds only watch if there are drops. They’d rather play.

EdmondDontes

DagenHawk wrote: »

Synaptic wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed how a lot of ESO's youtubers/streamers, especially those that focused on PvP have moved on to greener pastures in the wake of Update 33 ?

If you'll go on Twitch you'll notice most of the streamers there are PvP players who try their best to make interesting and fun builds and theorycraft along with their respective communities only to then go in Cyrodiil and be faced with severe performance issues which is just bad publicity for the game as a whole if you ask me.

It feels like every other ESO youtuber I watch has some gripe with the game, be it performance or the lack of balancing.

And it's hard to blame them. During streams developers have talked about how one of this game's strength's is PvP, specifically the three faction war in Cyrodiil. Meanwhile Cyrodiil hasn't received any significant updates in 8 years which to me is weird considering that statement. But I guess we all know how the devs really feel about the PvP community as many of us have seen their reaction on a certain Dev's stream when questioned on this topic.

Performance issues aside it's also strange how they barely ever add incentives such as earnable mounts or skins for PvP but you can find all these and more in PvE with every new update, not to mention all the store items.
Let's be honest, the Dragonguard Berserker style for example is not a PvP style, it's a style that can be obtained from a PvP area just by killing the mobs there, no PvP required.

There's also the matter of how badly Update 33 broke PvP.
I won't go into class specifics but everyone's running around with resto staves on their backbar, with insane survivability and no one dies anymore in PvP
I've had multiple occasions where I would run into someone in Imperial City, we would fight for about 20 minutes and then we'd both give up on the fight and go about or day because we simply couldn't kill each other, maybe if we fought for another 20minutes and one of us made a mistake or failed to reapply buffs/heals. And this happens a lot for other people as well (unless you're a Caluurion Stamblade and you find someone that doesn't have 100% upkeep on their buffs)
And we knew this would happen, the PTS feedback thread was full of people suggesting this would make the PvP meta worse than it already was yet they implemented everything without making any changes at all anyway.

And I understand the PvP community is considerably smaller because I know some comments will point this out but I still think that's not an excuse for the complete neglect it's seen over the years in a game that used to pride itself on the PvP aspect.

I'm trying my best not to be negative because despite everything I still think it's a great game but I just feel like as a community we should point these things out more in hopes of having them looked at (at the very least) by the developers.

PVP streamers have moved on because PVP is a hyper niece part of ESO ...And honestly ESO is a game you play, not a game you watch other people play.

you can kick the corpse of PVP as much as you want it just isn't going to get up at this point. Elder Scroll games are not about PVP or Raid or Die...TES is about questing alone or with your friends, it is about exploration , and it's about crafting, building something unique.

ESO will never be a PVP game, it will never be a raid game...it is baffling why those handful of people that want that type of game sticks around.

Not true. Not even remotely.

ESO has ALWAYS been advertised as a PvP end game experience. The three banners war has ALWAYS been advertised as the end game for ESO. And for the most part, still is.

For those of us who have played since Beta or shortly after official release these kinds of comments just reveal the poster as being new to the game.

dinokstrunz

DagenHawk wrote: »

Synaptic wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed how a lot of ESO's youtubers/streamers, especially those that focused on PvP have moved on to greener pastures in the wake of Update 33 ?

If you'll go on Twitch you'll notice most of the streamers there are PvP players who try their best to make interesting and fun builds and theorycraft along with their respective communities only to then go in Cyrodiil and be faced with severe performance issues which is just bad publicity for the game as a whole if you ask me.

It feels like every other ESO youtuber I watch has some gripe with the game, be it performance or the lack of balancing.

And it's hard to blame them. During streams developers have talked about how one of this game's strength's is PvP, specifically the three faction war in Cyrodiil. Meanwhile Cyrodiil hasn't received any significant updates in 8 years which to me is weird considering that statement. But I guess we all know how the devs really feel about the PvP community as many of us have seen their reaction on a certain Dev's stream when questioned on this topic.

Performance issues aside it's also strange how they barely ever add incentives such as earnable mounts or skins for PvP but you can find all these and more in PvE with every new update, not to mention all the store items.
Let's be honest, the Dragonguard Berserker style for example is not a PvP style, it's a style that can be obtained from a PvP area just by killing the mobs there, no PvP required.

There's also the matter of how badly Update 33 broke PvP.
I won't go into class specifics but everyone's running around with resto staves on their backbar, with insane survivability and no one dies anymore in PvP
I've had multiple occasions where I would run into someone in Imperial City, we would fight for about 20 minutes and then we'd both give up on the fight and go about or day because we simply couldn't kill each other, maybe if we fought for another 20minutes and one of us made a mistake or failed to reapply buffs/heals. And this happens a lot for other people as well (unless you're a Caluurion Stamblade and you find someone that doesn't have 100% upkeep on their buffs)
And we knew this would happen, the PTS feedback thread was full of people suggesting this would make the PvP meta worse than it already was yet they implemented everything without making any changes at all anyway.

And I understand the PvP community is considerably smaller because I know some comments will point this out but I still think that's not an excuse for the complete neglect it's seen over the years in a game that used to pride itself on the PvP aspect.

I'm trying my best not to be negative because despite everything I still think it's a great game but I just feel like as a community we should point these things out more in hopes of having them looked at (at the very least) by the developers.

PVP streamers have moved on because PVP is a hyper niece part of ESO ...And honestly ESO is a game you play, not a game you watch other people play.

you can kick the corpse of PVP as much as you want it just isn't going to get up at this point. Elder Scroll games are not about PVP or Raid or Die...TES is about questing alone or with your friends, it is about exploration , and it's about crafting, building something unique.

ESO will never be a PVP game, it will never be a raid game...it is baffling why those handful of people that want that type of game sticks around.

The people who enjoy combat of ESO would heavily disagree with that, a lot of PvPers and PvErs who partake in the end game often say and loudly that the combat of ESO is a lot more engaging than other MMOs. ESO isn't your typical TES game, it's an MMO and should focus on being an MMO whilst supporting the elements that MMOs and typical TES games are supposed to provide. I've always said this and I'll say it again ESO will always been "That" game "that never hit the nail on the head". Jack of all trades never do anything well which is why ZoS neglect for end game PvE & PvP will be harmful for them as a lot of people don't treat new quests as new content. There needs to be more and compared to other MMOs on the market ESO is massively underperforming.

Synaptic

DagenHawk wrote: »

Synaptic wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed how a lot of ESO's youtubers/streamers, especially those that focused on PvP have moved on to greener pastures in the wake of Update 33 ?

If you'll go on Twitch you'll notice most of the streamers there are PvP players who try their best to make interesting and fun builds and theorycraft along with their respective communities only to then go in Cyrodiil and be faced with severe performance issues which is just bad publicity for the game as a whole if you ask me.

It feels like every other ESO youtuber I watch has some gripe with the game, be it performance or the lack of balancing.

And it's hard to blame them. During streams developers have talked about how one of this game's strength's is PvP, specifically the three faction war in Cyrodiil. Meanwhile Cyrodiil hasn't received any significant updates in 8 years which to me is weird considering that statement. But I guess we all know how the devs really feel about the PvP community as many of us have seen their reaction on a certain Dev's stream when questioned on this topic.

Performance issues aside it's also strange how they barely ever add incentives such as earnable mounts or skins for PvP but you can find all these and more in PvE with every new update, not to mention all the store items.
Let's be honest, the Dragonguard Berserker style for example is not a PvP style, it's a style that can be obtained from a PvP area just by killing the mobs there, no PvP required.

There's also the matter of how badly Update 33 broke PvP.
I won't go into class specifics but everyone's running around with resto staves on their backbar, with insane survivability and no one dies anymore in PvP
I've had multiple occasions where I would run into someone in Imperial City, we would fight for about 20 minutes and then we'd both give up on the fight and go about or day because we simply couldn't kill each other, maybe if we fought for another 20minutes and one of us made a mistake or failed to reapply buffs/heals. And this happens a lot for other people as well (unless you're a Caluurion Stamblade and you find someone that doesn't have 100% upkeep on their buffs)
And we knew this would happen, the PTS feedback thread was full of people suggesting this would make the PvP meta worse than it already was yet they implemented everything without making any changes at all anyway.

And I understand the PvP community is considerably smaller because I know some comments will point this out but I still think that's not an excuse for the complete neglect it's seen over the years in a game that used to pride itself on the PvP aspect.

I'm trying my best not to be negative because despite everything I still think it's a great game but I just feel like as a community we should point these things out more in hopes of having them looked at (at the very least) by the developers.

PVP streamers have moved on because PVP is a hyper niece part of ESO ...And honestly ESO is a game you play, not a game you watch other people play.

you can kick the corpse of PVP as much as you want it just isn't going to get up at this point. Elder Scroll games are not about PVP or Raid or Die...TES is about questing alone or with your friends, it is about exploration , and it's about crafting, building something unique.

ESO will never be a PVP game, it will never be a raid game...it is baffling why those handful of people that want that type of game sticks around.

I'm not sure where you're pulling this "PvP is a niche part of ESO" thing from, kind of makes me assume you're new to the game.

ESO's MAIN selling point when it launched was the massive scale three faction war in Cyrodiil because in terms of PvE it offered nothing new compared to what was already available on the MMORGP market at the time and the developers knew this. The fact that PvP was supposed to be a big part of ESO was made even more apparent in their own promotional videos when the game was launching. And what's sad is that up until recently (when New World launched) it was the main thing that set this game apart from other MMORPG's but in it's current state it's laughable because I've seen streamers from NA trying to PvP and "get content" in Cyrodiil during prime time hours and it's deserted, barely a few players fighting over resource camps because there's no one else there ... and that again, is sad to see.

Even to this day you can find AngryJoe's (youtuber) video of himself trying out ESO in it's beta and going to Cyrodiil (where everyone lagged ofc) along with hoardes of other players as that was the main thing about the game that was new and exciting and everyone wanted to try out.

But somewhere along the line ZOS gave up on this aspect of the game and if we're gonna speculate on why it's probably because they realized that balancing is hard, dealing with performance issues is hard.
It's not like churning out PvE content or generating assets for the store which is typically a "one and done" type of thing like Maelstrom Arena for example. Maelstrom Arena was put out and has barely been tweaked since because it's fine in it's current state it doesn't need changes, whereas PvP needs constant balancing and tweaking throughout the lifetime of the game.

In summary, yes it does feel like PvP and the PvP community in this game are dying and it's truly becoming a "niche" part of the game, and that's really sad when considering it's roots.

Synaptic

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Why are the Twitch streamer numbers considered indicative of the ‘health’ of the game if it has never really been a big aspect of the game?

Again, and only anecdotal, the majority of people I know across 5 guilds only watch if there are drops. They’d rather play.

It used to be a large part of the game however, it has since died off due to ZOS's complete neglect.

For me personally the PvP, combat system and class flexibility is what attracted me to this game and I know it's the same for a lot of players, some who are still around.

Paralyse

Cyro was amazing. It was one of the first aspects of the game I wanted to enjoy when it went live after playing in Beta for a couple of months.

My excitement was soon tempered by the massive number of bugs, terrible FPS, insane lag, broken classes/builds (sorc blink, untargetable players on keep walls, infinite ulti, etc.)

Apart from IC it seems like ZOS soon gave up on Cyro and the only changes made were balance, bug fixes, etc. with no new content being added.

In this day and age of unkillable tanks and healers, harmony necro's with instadeath boneyard DC/PB, caluurion gankblades, backbar resto meta, etc. the only reason I go to Cyro anymore is for my 50 transmute crystals per toon, to visit the Golden Vendor, to buy loot boxes, or sometimes during the Whitestrake event. The lag is a lot better (until you have 40v40 in keeps and duelling ball groups) but the builds are still as broken as ever.

Gaeliannas

There are 3 things to stick around for in ESO after you have done all the normal PVE stuff:

1. Housing: Not great for keeping players long term, unless they are rich, that is all they care about, and are willing to wait for the next "time released" house to come out.
2. Trials: Also limited and after doing them X number of times, you move on.
3. PVP: The only thing that is never the same, it is one of the best implementations of PVP on the market, is constantly changing and never gets boring. The only thing that could drive people away from it is performance issues.

In the end, ZOS is focused on attracting new players, relieving their wallets a bit in the crown store, and then ignoring them if they decide to stick around. ESO has no end game.

StabbityDoom

Gaeliannas wrote: »

There are 3 things to stick around for in ESO after you have done all the normal PVE stuff:

1. Housing: Not great for keeping players long term, unless they are rich, that is all they care about, and are willing to wait for the next "time released" house to come out.
2. Trials: Also limited and after doing them X number of times, you move on.
3. PVP: The only thing that is never the same, it is one of the best implementations of PVP on the market, is constantly changing and never gets boring. The only thing that could drive people away from it is performance issues.

In the end, ZOS is focused on attracting new players, relieving their wallets a bit in the crown store, and then ignoring them if they decide to stick around. ESO has no end game.

I have a couple of side points here. I don't have a beef with your overall points.

Housing is not just about waiting for the next time released house comes out. We also have our own content, which are near-constant contests and showcases and challenges within our guilds and just in general. We also have a vibrant community. And in response to 3: Every house is different and can be mind-blowing. It's art. That is never the same.

And now my own point. And that is why ZOS should be investing itself in two areas, which they are ignoring. PVP, which by its nature is ever-changing, and housing, which sustains and challenges ITSELF through the community. But they ignore us because we don't have the same numbers. But I guarantee we spend more money than almost any other group.

doesurmindglow

Yea really the TLDR of this story is that performance, and performance in PVP especially, is critically important to the game's marketing. That means taking seriously player feedback about bugs and lag.

Without it, there is no streaming audience for the game, and no reach to prospective players on that front.

Molydeus

Synaptic wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Why are the Twitch streamer numbers considered indicative of the ‘health’ of the game if it has never really been a big aspect of the game?

Again, and only anecdotal, the majority of people I know across 5 guilds only watch if there are drops. They’d rather play.

It used to be a large part of the game however, it has since died off due to ZOS's complete neglect.

For me personally the PvP, combat system and class flexibility is what attracted me to this game and I know it's the same for a lot of players, some who are still around.

Streamers were never a big part of ESO.

Gaeliannas

StabbityDoom wrote: »

Gaeliannas wrote: »

There are 3 things to stick around for in ESO after you have done all the normal PVE stuff:

1. Housing: Not great for keeping players long term, unless they are rich, that is all they care about, and are willing to wait for the next "time released" house to come out.
2. Trials: Also limited and after doing them X number of times, you move on.
3. PVP: The only thing that is never the same, it is one of the best implementations of PVP on the market, is constantly changing and never gets boring. The only thing that could drive people away from it is performance issues.

In the end, ZOS is focused on attracting new players, relieving their wallets a bit in the crown store, and then ignoring them if they decide to stick around. ESO has no end game.

I have a couple of side points here. I don't have a beef with your overall points.

Housing is not just about waiting for the next time released house comes out. We also have our own content, which are near-constant contests and showcases and challenges within our guilds and just in general. We also have a vibrant community. And in response to 3: Every house is different and can be mind-blowing. It's art. That is never the same.

And now my own point. And that is why ZOS should be investing itself in two areas, which they are ignoring. PVP, which by its nature is ever-changing, and housing, which sustains and challenges ITSELF through the community. But they ignore us because we don't have the same numbers. But I guarantee we spend more money than almost any other group.

Hi Stabbity, I have watched your stream and you even checked out our guild hall one time I think! Yes, housing is big, and my significant others main activity anymore, although we both enjoy PVP as well. To your point though, while the very serious housing aficionado's do join housing guilds and all of what you said is true, a great many players don't join those guilds/events. It is a HUGE $$$ maker for ZOS though, even if they don't stay forever, as I know I see thousands of those $$$ going to ZOS for housing items from our bank account alone. And yes, some of those houses are insane and incredible! I do wish they would allow or implement the resizing of housing items though, like other games have. That change alone would probably increase the number of housing folks incredibly, since it would open up a whole new game for housing design.

sarahthes

Molydeus wrote: »

Synaptic wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Why are the Twitch streamer numbers considered indicative of the ‘health’ of the game if it has never really been a big aspect of the game?

Again, and only anecdotal, the majority of people I know across 5 guilds only watch if there are drops. They’d rather play.

It used to be a large part of the game however, it has since died off due to ZOS's complete neglect.

For me personally the PvP, combat system and class flexibility is what attracted me to this game and I know it's the same for a lot of players, some who are still around.

Streamers were never a big part of ESO.

Some big streamers got big via streaming ESO, however. So ESO definitely has the potential to be a decent streamed game. But all the truly entertaining PvP streamers have moved on - either to other games, or have stopped streaming completely (since switching games just loses you viewers unless you're over 1000 concurrent viewers).

defcon.dealer1b14_ESO

Molydeus wrote: »

Synaptic wrote: »

SerafinaWaterstar wrote: »

Why are the Twitch streamer numbers considered indicative of the ‘health’ of the game if it has never really been a big aspect of the game?

Again, and only anecdotal, the majority of people I know across 5 guilds only watch if there are drops. They’d rather play.

It used to be a large part of the game however, it has since died off due to ZOS's complete neglect.

For me personally the PvP, combat system and class flexibility is what attracted me to this game and I know it's the same for a lot of players, some who are still around.

Streamers were never a big part of ESO.

+1 well said

S0Z0H

Once High Isles drops we will see a boost in content creation. Cuz regardless of any negatives going on with ESO, High Isle is still new content. And the card game thing , apart from the new location, will peak many peoples interest to see how it all does, good or bad.

There's a lot of competition in Live Service type games, and the fact that ESO keeps a generally stable player base is impressive, despite all it's issues

Oreyn_Bearclaw

Balance and Performance is a chicken and the egg problem in PVP (admittedly, there is no question that the egg came first). You simply cant have a meaningful discussion about balance when performance is in the current state. I literally change my build when the lag gets bad. Dont need as much regen when skills dont fire, and certain skills just seem to work better when the game begins to stutter. I still fantasize about a heavy attack resto build, because that seems to be the most reliable thing there is.

To be candid, I am in an ESO holding pattern. I love this game, and am certainly not ready to give it up, but my sub runs in May, and I don't have plans to renew. For the first time, I did NOT preorder the newest chapter. A card game as the main feature? Are you kidding me? My only take away is that its the only thing they believe they can add that wont be a performance nightmare.

AWA did give me an incentive to go after some overland achievements where performance is not really an issue, but I am not doing much else other than writs for the the current event.

DagenHawk

Synaptic wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

Synaptic wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed how a lot of ESO's youtubers/streamers, especially those that focused on PvP have moved on to greener pastures in the wake of Update 33 ?

If you'll go on Twitch you'll notice most of the streamers there are PvP players who try their best to make interesting and fun builds and theorycraft along with their respective communities only to then go in Cyrodiil and be faced with severe performance issues which is just bad publicity for the game as a whole if you ask me.

It feels like every other ESO youtuber I watch has some gripe with the game, be it performance or the lack of balancing.

And it's hard to blame them. During streams developers have talked about how one of this game's strength's is PvP, specifically the three faction war in Cyrodiil. Meanwhile Cyrodiil hasn't received any significant updates in 8 years which to me is weird considering that statement. But I guess we all know how the devs really feel about the PvP community as many of us have seen their reaction on a certain Dev's stream when questioned on this topic.

Performance issues aside it's also strange how they barely ever add incentives such as earnable mounts or skins for PvP but you can find all these and more in PvE with every new update, not to mention all the store items.
Let's be honest, the Dragonguard Berserker style for example is not a PvP style, it's a style that can be obtained from a PvP area just by killing the mobs there, no PvP required.

There's also the matter of how badly Update 33 broke PvP.
I won't go into class specifics but everyone's running around with resto staves on their backbar, with insane survivability and no one dies anymore in PvP
I've had multiple occasions where I would run into someone in Imperial City, we would fight for about 20 minutes and then we'd both give up on the fight and go about or day because we simply couldn't kill each other, maybe if we fought for another 20minutes and one of us made a mistake or failed to reapply buffs/heals. And this happens a lot for other people as well (unless you're a Caluurion Stamblade and you find someone that doesn't have 100% upkeep on their buffs)
And we knew this would happen, the PTS feedback thread was full of people suggesting this would make the PvP meta worse than it already was yet they implemented everything without making any changes at all anyway.

And I understand the PvP community is considerably smaller because I know some comments will point this out but I still think that's not an excuse for the complete neglect it's seen over the years in a game that used to pride itself on the PvP aspect.

I'm trying my best not to be negative because despite everything I still think it's a great game but I just feel like as a community we should point these things out more in hopes of having them looked at (at the very least) by the developers.

PVP streamers have moved on because PVP is a hyper niece part of ESO ...And honestly ESO is a game you play, not a game you watch other people play.

you can kick the corpse of PVP as much as you want it just isn't going to get up at this point. Elder Scroll games are not about PVP or Raid or Die...TES is about questing alone or with your friends, it is about exploration , and it's about crafting, building something unique.

ESO will never be a PVP game, it will never be a raid game...it is baffling why those handful of people that want that type of game sticks around.

I'm not sure where you're pulling this "PvP is a niche part of ESO" thing from, kind of makes me assume you're new to the game.

ESO's MAIN selling point when it launched was the massive scale three faction war in Cyrodiil because in terms of PvE it offered nothing new compared to what was already available on the MMORGP market at the time and the developers knew this. The fact that PvP was supposed to be a big part of ESO was made even more apparent in their own promotional videos when the game was launching. And what's sad is that up until recently (when New World launched) it was the main thing that set this game apart from other MMORPG's but in it's current state it's laughable because I've seen streamers from NA trying to PvP and "get content" in Cyrodiil during prime time hours and it's deserted, barely a few players fighting over resource camps because there's no one else there ... and that again, is sad to see.

Even to this day you can find AngryJoe's (youtuber) video of himself trying out ESO in it's beta and going to Cyrodiil (where everyone lagged ofc) along with hoardes of other players as that was the main thing about the game that was new and exciting and everyone wanted to try out.

But somewhere along the line ZOS gave up on this aspect of the game and if we're gonna speculate on why it's probably because they realized that balancing is hard, dealing with performance issues is hard.
It's not like churning out PvE content or generating assets for the store which is typically a "one and done" type of thing like Maelstrom Arena for example. Maelstrom Arena was put out and has barely been tweaked since because it's fine in it's current state it doesn't need changes, whereas PvP needs constant balancing and tweaking throughout the lifetime of the game.

In summary, yes it does feel like PvP and the PvP community in this game are dying and it's truly becoming a "niche" part of the game, and that's really sad when considering it's roots.

I'm pulling it mostly from Observation...what's been said in dev interviews and my general knowledge of the industry.

I'm not the bad guy here I'm just voicing what I know, and I'm trying hard to do that in a non offensive way.

lets start with a bit a of history most all of us know.

The developers of ESO came from DAOC and Warhammer:AOR. One of these MMO's is on maintenance mode today...the other is shut down, mostly due to a terrible ad campaign that Mythic entertainment signed off on titled "MMO's suck."

Lets remember these were PVP centric MMO's that were about as diametric from The Elder Scrolls games as you can get, but that didn't stop developers that knew little or nothing about the TES franchise to wade in deciding that the end game was basically going to be DAOC which at the time had a rocking population of maybe 25k.

Never mind the metric ton of TES players asking them if they were out of their damn minds. (seriously go back to the old forums on the wayback machine...it's all there) They knew better after all PVP is the pinnacle of all of gaming....

Right?

"Why create content when you can just have Doom online." was the sentiment of most of us who were against the idea at the time.

Don't get me wrong Zos made other questionable decision, like public dungeons (I mean they are so popular right now that there are hour long queues to even enter one right? What do you mean they are desolate? That has to be your imagination!!) and hiring a lead combat designer that had zero industry experience...that never returned to the industry once she left.

Still this game survived.

And it did so, soley because of Robert A. Altman. He gave the devs a chance to fix what wasn't working...and they fixed it enough to keep the players they had and make enough TES fans return.

I mean it wasn't a FFXIV turn around, but it was still impressive.

And the PVP aspect sorta faded

Honestly I don't think ESO actually has a end game these days...and very few people care, because right now ESO is for better or worse Skyrim with friends and there is nothing wrong with that if you aren't a purist or a gatekeeper that is.

ZoS gave up on PVP because the audience wasn't there just like it isn't there for any other MMO, that is why PVP centric MMO mostly fail.

As far as Angry Joe goes...he even admits in that video that he is pissed off because ESO wasn't more Skyrim, and at the time it wasn't, and his cult shouted down anyone who didn't agree with him.

No objective person thinks Joe gave ESO a fair shot and to this day he refuses to do a revisit video despite all the improvements because...you guessed it he doesn't think it's more Skyrim.


Look I don't have a dog in this race, PVP has been designed that no matter how popular it is or isn't doesn't affect my game one iota...the play style failed because it simply isn't popular to enough people.

This is one of those don't shoot the messenger things.

I hope we can still be friends


Your pal DagenHawk.

drsalvation

"with insane survivability and no one dies anymore in PvP"

This game allows for such insane numbers when it comes to damage, there's no reason for it.
One moment you're at 80% health, the next moment you're dead.
It's always all or nothing, it's stupid.

I've suggested multiple times to cap EVERYTHING (max damage, max defense, make armor sets a matter of taste and not of need) Completely nerf any types of regeneration during combat except for heavy attacks.
Of course this would drastically change the PvP style of gameplay, and people will of course hate it in the same way they hate any sort of change, but it's for the best. Without regen, you'd actually have to be more calculating and be able to prioritize and strategize instead of just charging a burst and insta-kill, or spam the same skill until you run out of stamina or your opponent dies.

MentalxHammer

I have over 7k hours as a strict PvP player and I haven’t played for around 5 months, which really is a bummer for me. I want more than anything to come back to the game but the thing that keeps me away is the sheer neglect to implement or update PvP content. I have a hard time finding the reason to come back when I know I’ll be repeating the same gameplay loops endlessly. In some cases they have even diminished content such as the inability to queue for BG deathmatches.

And the thing is, the devs have shown a great degree of creativity, but for some reason they refuse to allocate their time and effort into PvP. New BG maps and game types, an update to the Cyro map to change the terrain we’re fighting on, some sort of dueling matchmaker with rewards, we need new things to do as PvP players! I get ESO is a business and the powers that be think PvP doesn’t bring in players or revenue, but I guarantee if they released some fun new PvP focused update the game would see a huge boom in players.

Folkb

ESO is a boring streaming game, its better for YT content such as guides and builds.

Synaptic

DagenHawk wrote: »

Synaptic wrote: »

DagenHawk wrote: »

Synaptic wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed how a lot of ESO's youtubers/streamers, especially those that focused on PvP have moved on to greener pastures in the wake of Update 33 ?

If you'll go on Twitch you'll notice most of the streamers there are PvP players who try their best to make interesting and fun builds and theorycraft along with their respective communities only to then go in Cyrodiil and be faced with severe performance issues which is just bad publicity for the game as a whole if you ask me.

It feels like every other ESO youtuber I watch has some gripe with the game, be it performance or the lack of balancing.

And it's hard to blame them. During streams developers have talked about how one of this game's strength's is PvP, specifically the three faction war in Cyrodiil. Meanwhile Cyrodiil hasn't received any significant updates in 8 years which to me is weird considering that statement. But I guess we all know how the devs really feel about the PvP community as many of us have seen their reaction on a certain Dev's stream when questioned on this topic.

Performance issues aside it's also strange how they barely ever add incentives such as earnable mounts or skins for PvP but you can find all these and more in PvE with every new update, not to mention all the store items.
Let's be honest, the Dragonguard Berserker style for example is not a PvP style, it's a style that can be obtained from a PvP area just by killing the mobs there, no PvP required.

There's also the matter of how badly Update 33 broke PvP.
I won't go into class specifics but everyone's running around with resto staves on their backbar, with insane survivability and no one dies anymore in PvP
I've had multiple occasions where I would run into someone in Imperial City, we would fight for about 20 minutes and then we'd both give up on the fight and go about or day because we simply couldn't kill each other, maybe if we fought for another 20minutes and one of us made a mistake or failed to reapply buffs/heals. And this happens a lot for other people as well (unless you're a Caluurion Stamblade and you find someone that doesn't have 100% upkeep on their buffs)
And we knew this would happen, the PTS feedback thread was full of people suggesting this would make the PvP meta worse than it already was yet they implemented everything without making any changes at all anyway.

And I understand the PvP community is considerably smaller because I know some comments will point this out but I still think that's not an excuse for the complete neglect it's seen over the years in a game that used to pride itself on the PvP aspect.

I'm trying my best not to be negative because despite everything I still think it's a great game but I just feel like as a community we should point these things out more in hopes of having them looked at (at the very least) by the developers.

PVP streamers have moved on because PVP is a hyper niece part of ESO ...And honestly ESO is a game you play, not a game you watch other people play.

you can kick the corpse of PVP as much as you want it just isn't going to get up at this point. Elder Scroll games are not about PVP or Raid or Die...TES is about questing alone or with your friends, it is about exploration , and it's about crafting, building something unique.

ESO will never be a PVP game, it will never be a raid game...it is baffling why those handful of people that want that type of game sticks around.

I'm not sure where you're pulling this "PvP is a niche part of ESO" thing from, kind of makes me assume you're new to the game.

ESO's MAIN selling point when it launched was the massive scale three faction war in Cyrodiil because in terms of PvE it offered nothing new compared to what was already available on the MMORGP market at the time and the developers knew this. The fact that PvP was supposed to be a big part of ESO was made even more apparent in their own promotional videos when the game was launching. And what's sad is that up until recently (when New World launched) it was the main thing that set this game apart from other MMORPG's but in it's current state it's laughable because I've seen streamers from NA trying to PvP and "get content" in Cyrodiil during prime time hours and it's deserted, barely a few players fighting over resource camps because there's no one else there ... and that again, is sad to see.

Even to this day you can find AngryJoe's (youtuber) video of himself trying out ESO in it's beta and going to Cyrodiil (where everyone lagged ofc) along with hoardes of other players as that was the main thing about the game that was new and exciting and everyone wanted to try out.

But somewhere along the line ZOS gave up on this aspect of the game and if we're gonna speculate on why it's probably because they realized that balancing is hard, dealing with performance issues is hard.
It's not like churning out PvE content or generating assets for the store which is typically a "one and done" type of thing like Maelstrom Arena for example. Maelstrom Arena was put out and has barely been tweaked since because it's fine in it's current state it doesn't need changes, whereas PvP needs constant balancing and tweaking throughout the lifetime of the game.

In summary, yes it does feel like PvP and the PvP community in this game are dying and it's truly becoming a "niche" part of the game, and that's really sad when considering it's roots.

I'm pulling it mostly from Observation...what's been said in dev interviews and my general knowledge of the industry.

I'm not the bad guy here I'm just voicing what I know, and I'm trying hard to do that in a non offensive way.

lets start with a bit a of history most all of us know.

The developers of ESO came from DAOC and Warhammer:AOR. One of these MMO's is on maintenance mode today...the other is shut down, mostly due to a terrible ad campaign that Mythic entertainment signed off on titled "MMO's suck."

Lets remember these were PVP centric MMO's that were about as diametric from The Elder Scrolls games as you can get, but that didn't stop developers that knew little or nothing about the TES franchise to wade in deciding that the end game was basically going to be DAOC which at the time had a rocking population of maybe 25k.

Never mind the metric ton of TES players asking them if they were out of their damn minds. (seriously go back to the old forums on the wayback machine...it's all there) They knew better after all PVP is the pinnacle of all of gaming....

Right?

"Why create content when you can just have Doom online." was the sentiment of most of us who were against the idea at the time.

Don't get me wrong Zos made other questionable decision, like public dungeons (I mean they are so popular right now that there are hour long queues to even enter one right? What do you mean they are desolate? That has to be your imagination!!) and hiring a lead combat designer that had zero industry experience...that never returned to the industry once she left.

Still this game survived.

And it did so, soley because of Robert A. Altman. He gave the devs a chance to fix what wasn't working...and they fixed it enough to keep the players they had and make enough TES fans return.

I mean it wasn't a FFXIV turn around, but it was still impressive.

And the PVP aspect sorta faded

Honestly I don't think ESO actually has a end game these days...and very few people care, because right now ESO is for better or worse Skyrim with friends and there is nothing wrong with that if you aren't a purist or a gatekeeper that is.

ZoS gave up on PVP because the audience wasn't there just like it isn't there for any other MMO, that is why PVP centric MMO mostly fail.

As far as Angry Joe goes...he even admits in that video that he is pissed off because ESO wasn't more Skyrim, and at the time it wasn't, and his cult shouted down anyone who didn't agree with him.

No objective person thinks Joe gave ESO a fair shot and to this day he refuses to do a revisit video despite all the improvements because...you guessed it he doesn't think it's more Skyrim.


Look I don't have a dog in this race, PVP has been designed that no matter how popular it is or isn't doesn't affect my game one iota...the play style failed because it simply isn't popular to enough people.

This is one of those don't shoot the messenger things.

I hope we can still be friends


Your pal DagenHawk.

I don't know man, I think streamers like SypherPk, Fengrush and Deltia kinda proved there was an audience for this game, especially when it came to PvP as they also consistently had the most viewers whenever they were live, granted these were not WoW numbers by any means but then again this game never had WoW's population numbers. And if that's an avenue that can bring in hundreds or maybe even thousands of players (even if by comparison it's not a lot) I still think it's something that should be supported or even expanded upon.

Ocelot9x

I think the biggest problem with streamers, especially pvp ones is that there is literally no new content since years.
The lag, balance issues are marginal compared to the lack of things to do. Some of us logged for years just to hug the same tree outside the same resource. It gets boring, you can't feed a community with the same content for years and expect them to still be engaged

Nomadic_Atmoran

Im not even going to let myself get pulled into an argument over the importance/meaninglessness of PvP in this MMO. So I'll stick to what's actually the core point of the thread.

ESO has never been a big hit on twitch or streaming in general. And getting big on streaming is rare in of itself. So anyone focusing on ESO is not very likely to get big when the pond is so small to begin with. So aside from the blatant issues the game is having I think the real issue has always been that ESO has nothing to draw in that sort of community and when the game is not doing anything to add exciting and easily viewable content. Its not surprising that Streamers are either looking for content elsewhere or they are done with streaming all together.

Ditronus

Synaptic wrote: »

Has anyone else noticed how a lot of ESO's youtubers/streamers, especially those that focused on PvP have moved on to greener pastures in the wake of Update 33 ?

If you'll go on Twitch you'll notice most of the streamers there are PvP players who try their best to make interesting and fun builds and theorycraft along with their respective communities only to then go in Cyrodiil and be faced with severe performance issues which is just bad publicity for the game as a whole if you ask me.

It feels like every other ESO youtuber I watch has some gripe with the game, be it performance or the lack of balancing.

And it's hard to blame them. During streams developers have talked about how one of this game's strength's is PvP, specifically the three faction war in Cyrodiil. Meanwhile Cyrodiil hasn't received any significant updates in 8 years which to me is weird considering that statement. But I guess we all know how the devs really feel about the PvP community as many of us have seen their reaction on a certain Dev's stream when questioned on this topic.

Performance issues aside it's also strange how they barely ever add incentives such as earnable mounts or skins for PvP but you can find all these and more in PvE with every new update, not to mention all the store items.
Let's be honest, the Dragonguard Berserker style for example is not a PvP style, it's a style that can be obtained from a PvP area just by killing the mobs there, no PvP required.

There's also the matter of how badly Update 33 broke PvP.
I won't go into class specifics but everyone's running around with resto staves on their backbar, with insane survivability and no one dies anymore in PvP
I've had multiple occasions where I would run into someone in Imperial City, we would fight for about 20 minutes and then we'd both give up on the fight and go about or day because we simply couldn't kill each other, maybe if we fought for another 20minutes and one of us made a mistake or failed to reapply buffs/heals. And this happens a lot for other people as well (unless you're a Caluurion Stamblade and you find someone that doesn't have 100% upkeep on their buffs)
And we knew this would happen, the PTS feedback thread was full of people suggesting this would make the PvP meta worse than it already was yet they implemented everything without making any changes at all anyway.

And I understand the PvP community is considerably smaller because I know some comments will point this out but I still think that's not an excuse for the complete neglect it's seen over the years in a game that used to pride itself on the PvP aspect.

I'm trying my best not to be negative because despite everything I still think it's a great game but I just feel like as a community we should point these things out more in hopes of having them looked at (at the very least) by the developers.

Yea, PVP shouldn't exist in an MMO that can't balance both sides of the game separately.