Gankers at Questpoints

Lumsdenml

So today I got an amusing mail after doing my daily in Cropsford in Cyrodiil. I'm on EP and the town was red. As I'm almost done, about 35 AD roll through and turn the town yellow. I finish my daily, get my tickets, then hang out, ganking some of the stray AD who were hanging around the town doing their quests. I leave, get my tickets in IC, started clearing out my mail and I notice I got a player mail... Here is what it says. "Ganking questors at quest point repatedly can be cosindered a form of harassment. In that you are hindering people from completing quests. Please stop." Well, yeah, I am trying to stop someone on another faction from trying to complete their quests BECASE THIS IS A PVP ZONE AND THEY ARE ON AN OPPOSING FACTION! I then whispered this person reminding them that Cyrodiil is a PVP zone and ganking people in a PVP zone is what happens there. His reply was that if someone asks you to stop ganking them and you don't, that is against TOS.... Really??? That's great, because the next time I am trying to take a keep and people keep killing me, I'm going to ask them to stop and report them if they don't.... They then said if I do it agian, they are going to get me on video. I'm not sure they understand PVP...

VaranisArano

Here's Gina Bruno's comment on that type of thing, screenshotted for brevity. The comments shown are on page 1 and 2. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/546727/was-it-ever-confirmed-if-tea-bagging-is-against-tos-now/p1



In short, repeatedly killing questers is not -by itself- harassment. The context is PVP happening in a PVP zone.

But if you are going out of your way to target that one player or combining it with stuff like hate whispers, the context of your actions does matter.

Lumsdenml

VaranisArano wrote: »

Here's Gina Bruno's comment on that type of thing, screenshotted for brevity. The comments shown are on page 1 and 2. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/546727/was-it-ever-confirmed-if-tea-bagging-is-against-tos-now/p1



In short, repeatedly killing questers is not -by itself- harassment. The context is PVP happening in a PVP zone.

But if you are going out of your way to target that one player or combining it with stuff like hate whispers, the context of your actions does matter.

Yep, agreed 100%! Thanks for the screenshot!

Vevvev

Some people get bitter but what you were doing is not against the TOS if you were just PvPing and taking out anyone who came by. Don't worry about it, OP.

I personally try to leave questers alone if it's fairly obvious they're there for the quests, but once they start doing any PvP centric thing like fight an Alliance War guard, stand on a point, or attack me or any ally that truce is off.

Kwoung

FYI, the targeting a particular player type of griefing, means you are following them with the intention of harassing that particular player by ganking them over and over. You sitting at a location and ganking anyone that comes into that area, doesn't count. If the same clown keeps running up and getting killed over and over, that is on him for being an idiot, and not you targeting a particular person. Otherwise, every keep attack would be considered griefing.

I am not a fan of ganking PVE questors at quest locations myself, but it isn't against the rules. There are PVP ways to deal with it, and if someone has an issue with it happening, should use those to solve the issue.

SeaGtGruff

I'm definitely not a fan of gankers, although I'd never consider complaining about it since I know what I'm getting into by going into a PvP war zone.

And I agree that deliberately and repeatedly targetting the same player over and over again-- whether through ganking or a clearly visible frontal assault-- could be considered griefing and might possibly be deemed a violation of the TOS.

However, it seems a bit disingenuous to send the "offending" player a mail message asking them to stop attacking them, because in most cases it's likely to take a little while for (1) the "offending" player to receive the mail and (2) open the mail and read what it says. So between the time the "victim" sends the mail and the "offender" gets around to reading it, the "offender" could potentially continue to attack the enemy players, including the "victim." So does that mean the "victim" can claim that they asked for the attacks to stop, but the "bad player" refused to honor that request and kept on "griefing" them? The way the request was made kind of smells like it might have been a setup.

Larcomar

My guild generally leaves quester be. Or left. The problem we've found during this event is that a significant proportion of these "questers" - after holding block and acting like theyre non combatants - then turn round and try and gank the squishy guy at the back of the group as you leave. And I mean a significant proportion. They are obviously pve'rs - I mean, they're pretty hopeless, have zero burst and just crumple when you put them down. They just seem to find it too tempting to "have a go" when they see someone they think is alone or squishy. Personally, I'm in favour of shooting first and asking questions later now.

Kwoung

Larcomar wrote: »

My guild generally leaves quester be. Or left. The problem we've found during this event is that a significant proportion of these "questers" - after holding block and acting like theyre non combatants - then turn round and try and gank the squishy guy at the back of the group as you leave. And I mean a significant proportion. They are obviously pve'rs - I mean, they're pretty hopeless, have zero burst and just crumple when you put them down. They just seem to find it too tempting to "have a go" when they see someone they think is alone or squishy. Personally, I'm in favour of shooting first and asking questions later now.

That is pretty much my experience as well. Both alone and grouped I have left questers alone, only to be shot in the back while riding away. At which point I/we kill them for being a jerk. Waving a white flag then pulling out a gun when the other guy puts his down, is just bad form no matter how you cut it.

It is almost like they think all PVPers are jerks, and if someone cut them slack, it must be a sign of weakness they can exploit. Then of course, ensues the inevitable forum posts about how they got ganked at a quest point.

Indigogo

A formal letter in the mail is full send Karen.

Threaten to counter report for griefing an EP town by not allowing it to be its rightful colour of red and not allowing OUR pve-ers to quest in peace.

Lumenn

Larcomar wrote: »

My guild generally leaves quester be. Or left. The problem we've found during this event is that a significant proportion of these "questers" - after holding block and acting like theyre non combatants - then turn round and try and gank the squishy guy at the back of the group as you leave. And I mean a significant proportion. They are obviously pve'rs - I mean, they're pretty hopeless, have zero burst and just crumple when you put them down. They just seem to find it too tempting to "have a go" when they see someone they think is alone or squishy. Personally, I'm in favour of shooting first and asking questions later now.

This cracked me up. I usually pve(I used to pvp quite a bit but it's been years since I was serious about it and it's a totally different game now) if I run up on a group or even a solo and they automatically don't jump me I know it's one of two things, they're either questing or they're someone I probably shouldn't mess with

RisenEclipse

I did the Cyrodiil quest achievement and I learned that if you're going up to a quest NPC, always go up with invisibility potions lol Most of the time you can get to the questers without too much trouble. Although there is that one NPC in cropsford that is standing RIGHT beside the stupid flag... pain in the butt to grab that quest if your alliance doesnt have the town.

vsrs_au

Why did ZOS enable quests in this zone? It seems pretty obvious that PvP and PvE don't mix in a single zone. Threads like this (and there are many) demonstrate this perfectly. I'm a PvE only player, and I'll probably never enter this zone for questing, because threads like this have discouraged me from doing so.

I'm not criticising anyone, I'm just honestly confused about why a dual-use zone exists when it causes so much non-game conflict between players.

M0ntie

What you were doing sounds ok. You could argue that the AD Zerg stopped u handing in your quest.
What is a problem is in IC groups of blue camping the bosses, not killing the boss but killing people coming to kill it for the event achievements.

BlossomDead

Lol. So what if you kill someone repeatedly? We can't play the game anymore? Don't like to be killed, do a 'safe-space' delve. This shouldn't even be a thing, like teabagging. If you get offended easily, PvP is NOT for you. simple.

Northwold

Sorry it is harassment (even if not against the rules) and totally unnecessary. The game has included content in PvP zones that is not actually PvP and you're deliberately and repeatedly taking out people who are doing nothing to you and are trying to complete that content, so killing people in the easiest way possible, just to get yourself off. Like a school bully who isn't big enough to actually fight people who are going to fight back.

Not even remotely cool. Just be considerate of other people. You know there are PvE questers who have no interest in fighting you, you know where they are. Just leave them alone.

Vevvev

Northwold wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

So today I got an amusing mail after doing my daily in Cropsford in Cyrodiil. I'm on EP and the town was red. As I'm almost done, about 35 AD roll through and turn the town yellow. I finish my daily, get my tickets, then hang out, ganking some of the stray AD who were hanging around the town doing their quests. I leave, get my tickets in IC, started clearing out my mail and I notice I got a player mail... Here is what it says. "Ganking questors at quest point repatedly can be cosindered a form of harassment. In that you are hindering people from completing quests. Please stop." Well, yeah, I am trying to stop someone on another faction from trying to complete their quests BECASE THIS IS A PVP ZONE AND THEY ARE ON AN OPPOSING FACTION! I then whispered this person reminding them that Cyrodiil is a PVP zone and ganking people in a PVP zone is what happens there. His reply was that if someone asks you to stop ganking them and you don't, that is against TOS.... Really??? That's great, because the next time I am trying to take a keep and people keep killing me, I'm going to ask them to stop and report them if they don't.... They then said if I do it agian, they are going to get me on video. I'm not sure they understand PVP...

Sorry it is harassment (even if not against the rules) and totally unnecessary. The game has included content in PvP zones that is not actually PvP and you're deliberately and repeatedly taking out people who are doing nothing to you and are trying to complete that content, so killing people in the easiest way possible, just to get yourself off. Like a school bully who isn't big enough to actually fight people who are going to fight back.

Not even remotely cool. Just be considerate of other people. You know there are PvE questers who have no interest in fighting you, you know where they are. Just leave them alone.

Well, he was in the green to do this though. Cropsford is in EP home territory, and by this group turning the town yellow they violated an unwritten rule about territory control. He as an EP PvPer has every right to push them out of that town until he gets enough people to help flip the town back to red. Captured towns in Cyrodiil present very real threat to the surrounding keeps in the region, which is why I'm typically in a seek a destroy attitude as a DC player when Bruma is threatened.

Kwoung

Vevvev wrote: »

Northwold wrote: »

Lumsdenml wrote: »

So today I got an amusing mail after doing my daily in Cropsford in Cyrodiil. I'm on EP and the town was red. As I'm almost done, about 35 AD roll through and turn the town yellow. I finish my daily, get my tickets, then hang out, ganking some of the stray AD who were hanging around the town doing their quests. I leave, get my tickets in IC, started clearing out my mail and I notice I got a player mail... Here is what it says. "Ganking questors at quest point repatedly can be cosindered a form of harassment. In that you are hindering people from completing quests. Please stop." Well, yeah, I am trying to stop someone on another faction from trying to complete their quests BECASE THIS IS A PVP ZONE AND THEY ARE ON AN OPPOSING FACTION! I then whispered this person reminding them that Cyrodiil is a PVP zone and ganking people in a PVP zone is what happens there. His reply was that if someone asks you to stop ganking them and you don't, that is against TOS.... Really??? That's great, because the next time I am trying to take a keep and people keep killing me, I'm going to ask them to stop and report them if they don't.... They then said if I do it agian, they are going to get me on video. I'm not sure they understand PVP...

Sorry it is harassment (even if not against the rules) and totally unnecessary. The game has included content in PvP zones that is not actually PvP and you're deliberately and repeatedly taking out people who are doing nothing to you and are trying to complete that content, so killing people in the easiest way possible, just to get yourself off. Like a school bully who isn't big enough to actually fight people who are going to fight back.

Not even remotely cool. Just be considerate of other people. You know there are PvE questers who have no interest in fighting you, you know where they are. Just leave them alone.

Well, he was in the green to do this though. Cropsford is in EP home territory, and by this group turning the town yellow they violated an unwritten rule about territory control. He as an EP PvPer has every right to push them out of that town until he gets enough people to help flip the town back to red. Captured towns in Cyrodiil present very real threat to the surrounding keeps in the region, which is why I'm typically in a seek a destroy attitude as a DC player when Bruma is threatened.

They also represent a 8% bonus to AP gain for the faction that holds it, which is why they are contested at all.

tsaescishoeshiner

To people saying that it's weird they sent a mail, it's technically what you're supposed to do first instead of just outright reporting someone in many cases.

Not saying that this actually involved harassment, just that it's following the rules from their perspective.

Kwoung

tsaescishoeshiner wrote: »

To people saying that it's weird they sent a mail, it's technically what you're supposed to do first instead of just outright reporting someone in many cases.

Not saying that this actually involved harassment, just that it's following the rules from their perspective.

Sending a tell would be the correct way. Sending a mail, it may not be received for quite a long time, or ever if the persons email is full, which is why folks say it is a weird way to contact someone. As a matter of fact, unless I am getting sent or sending someone a glyph to redo my gear, I don't think I have ever even looked at my mail when engaged in any game activity. Mail is for when you are standing around in town and during your downtime.

Lumsdenml

Northwold wrote: »

Sorry it is harassment (even if not against the rules) and totally unnecessary. The game has included content in PvP zones that is not actually PvP and you're deliberately and repeatedly taking out people who are doing nothing to you and are trying to complete that content, so killing people in the easiest way possible, just to get yourself off. Like a school bully who isn't big enough to actually fight people who are going to fight back.

Not even remotely cool. Just be considerate of other people. You know there are PvE questers who have no interest in fighting you, you know where they are. Just leave them alone.

And how do you feel about the 35 deep AD zerg who took crops while I was there? Are they not bullies? There is no way I could fight back against them.

dem0n1k

It's basically an email saying you won! Very considerate!

kargen27

" I finish my daily, get my tickets, then hang out, ganking some of the stray AD who were hanging around the town doing their quests."

Many people that do this lack the skill to engage against other PvP players so take it out on players only wanting to turn in a quest.

"He as an EP PvPer has every right to push them out of that town until he gets enough people to help flip the town back to red."
True enough except "ganking some of the stray AD who were hanging around the town doing their quests." not running the players flipping the town away but ganking players turning in a quest. If he was concerned about the map the players turning in quests would have been of little interest or importance.

I don't think it was harassment or against the ToS but lets not pretend it was for the map. It was for easy kills. Can't even use the excuse of gaining AP as players doing quests usually aren't going to generate AP in significant amounts.

And it sure isn't good for the game. PvP needs more players. Players are often introduced to PvP through these events. If they have a horrible time of it they will not return.

Lumsdenml

kargen27 wrote: »

" I finish my daily, get my tickets, then hang out, ganking some of the stray AD who were hanging around the town doing their quests."

Many people that do this lack the skill to engage against other PvP players so take it out on players only wanting to turn in a quest.

"He as an EP PvPer has every right to push them out of that town until he gets enough people to help flip the town back to red."
True enough except "ganking some of the stray AD who were hanging around the town doing their quests." not running the players flipping the town away but ganking players turning in a quest. If he was concerned about the map the players turning in quests would have been of little interest or importance.

I don't think it was harassment or against the ToS but lets not pretend it was for the map. It was for easy kills. Can't even use the excuse of gaining AP as players doing quests usually aren't going to generate AP in significant amounts.

And it sure isn't good for the game. PvP needs more players. Players are often introduced to PvP through these events. If they have a horrible time of it they will not return.

Oh, I'll admit that I am, at best, an average pvp player. That never stops me from attacking anyone who made the poor choice to represent any other faction other than EP. 😀

OBJnoob

You don’t have to justify yourself to anyone OP, players killing players is what’s meant to take place. All this high philosophy around the subject is just fluff.

If I decide to not attack an enemy because I believe they are “innocent” then that’s me being nice. If I do attack that player that’s not me being mean that’s me being normal. If I attack them, t bag them, AND whisper them saying they’re trash then that’s me being mean.

A meanness that still falls quite short of any real life bullying or harassment. I suppose I can empathize with someone who’s been bullied in real life, plays the game for a bit of an escape, and doesn’t appreciate the toxicity. But that’s really on them to find a hobby they enjoy better. People need to be emotionally tough enough to let SOME things go.

FluffWit

Accusing people of harassment isn't wise. I'd probably target them after that too.

I've had people politely message me telling me they were just questing and asking me to not to kill them. Was always happy to oblige.

CP5

kargen27 wrote: »

" I finish my daily, get my tickets, then hang out, ganking some of the stray AD who were hanging around the town doing their quests."

Many people that do this lack the skill to engage against other PvP players so take it out on players only wanting to turn in a quest.

"He as an EP PvPer has every right to push them out of that town until he gets enough people to help flip the town back to red."
True enough except "ganking some of the stray AD who were hanging around the town doing their quests." not running the players flipping the town away but ganking players turning in a quest. If he was concerned about the map the players turning in quests would have been of little interest or importance.

I don't think it was harassment or against the ToS but lets not pretend it was for the map. It was for easy kills. Can't even use the excuse of gaining AP as players doing quests usually aren't going to generate AP in significant amounts.

And it sure isn't good for the game. PvP needs more players. Players are often introduced to PvP through these events. If they have a horrible time of it they will not return.

I really don't get why more players don't understand this. These events are for many players their first interaction with pvp and when that time is spent being kicked to the curb with no chance to even try to fight back, often without the support of any actual pvp'ers trying to help them get into the game, their first impression of pvp is something to loathe and not return to.

If there were more people pvping then a larger part of the player base would have a vested interest in pvp, and if there was a larger ratio of players who did pvp then fixes and improvements in that area would be higher. But if pvp'ers take these chances for easy kills, intentionally finding easy marks to take down, all they're doing is driving away players before they have a chance to even try to enjoy the content.

Blinx

I did all the 5 Cyro Town Quests and out of the 50 quests, I only got ganked 3 times- and it was pact members all 3 times!, but I know it wasn't you OP, because I'm on Xbox.

I was actually expecting to be killed more tbh, Cyro is more civilized as opposed to Imperial City, I managed to get all the skyshards, do all the dolmens, and delves, only got killed in 1 delve. (prior to the event I had 6 skyshards, and 1 delve done)

So 4 deaths total, and I'd say it was well worth it from my PVE point of view,

I feel OP didn't do anything wrong, and the person who sent him the mail was being overtly sensitive imo.

FlopsyPrince

The behavior here is very annoying. Allowed, but really obnoxious, especially if you go invisible and just wait for other quest turn-ins to gank.

Yeah, its a PvP zone, but the tickets (and even the AP gains in normal times) have value beyond the PvP. Just trying to hang around to get "easy kills" shows a lack of ability to play PvP and does not demonstrate any skill other than being better at loading a few gank skills.

I haven't done much this time because I am tired of being ganked. I do find it a bit amazing that a single side can control the questing hubs in almost every available campaign! Looking for one to use and then finding out it is camped by a ganker makes it even more frustrating. Not a good thing for getting more players interested in the game, or even PvP.

I have hit once this even with the solo guy literally camping the turn in point in Vlad until a PvP AD player (I assume the player was PvP) came and killed the ganker. Though the other was even worse, with a group of 5-10 players doing the ganking, not attempting to take over the town, just going invisible after killing the questers. That shows they have no skills other than ganging up on others. Encouraging that is not good for the game.

FlopsyPrince

OBJnoob wrote: »

You don’t have to justify yourself to anyone OP, players killing players is what’s meant to take place. All this high philosophy around the subject is just fluff.

If I decide to not attack an enemy because I believe they are “innocent” then that’s me being nice. If I do attack that player that’s not me being mean that’s me being normal. If I attack them, t bag them, AND whisper them saying they’re trash then that’s me being mean.

A meanness that still falls quite short of any real life bullying or harassment. I suppose I can empathize with someone who’s been bullied in real life, plays the game for a bit of an escape, and doesn’t appreciate the toxicity. But that’s really on them to find a hobby they enjoy better. People need to be emotionally tough enough to let SOME things go.

Yes, it is a lot less than in your face bullying, but it is the same underneath. Picking on those who are less competent to make yourself feel good. I don't think the OP fell to that level, but many who do this, especially like the group I just noted, do fit the category.

Online games can bring out the worst tendencies in many. Some may even be the kind would would be picked on in real life, but who get a thrill doing it to others themselves.

hafgood

Sorry but the OP's behaviour is exactly what PvErs want to hear. It feeds the idea many have that all PvPers are just horrible nasty people waiting at quest points to kill them.

Yes I know its PvP, but for many it's their first time in Cyrodiil. Ganking them just puts them off coming back. We need them to come back, we need them to learn what to do in Cyro and to learn to PvP.

Every ganked victim at a quest turn in is another potential PvPer that will probably never be back. Which is a shame.

VaranisArano

vsrs_au wrote: »

Why did ZOS enable quests in this zone? It seems pretty obvious that PvP and PvE don't mix in a single zone. Threads like this (and there are many) demonstrate this perfectly. I'm a PvE only player, and I'll probably never enter this zone for questing, because threads like this have discouraged me from doing so.

I'm not criticising anyone, I'm just honestly confused about why a dual-use zone exists when it causes so much non-game conflict between players.

Cyrodiil and the original Alliance War is heavily based on the design of Dark Age of Camelot. PvPvE games do exist and can do very well with certain player bases.

In that light, the PvPvE objectives actually do very well in Cyrodiil to create conflict between players during those quests.

What they don't do is appeal to players who only like PVE-only content.