DoT and Buff Duration - Multiples of 10

Jazraena

I have a simple request I feel.

Can we please, please have all DoTs and Buffs harmonize into durations that are multiples of 10 seconds?

The Carve changes today are fine enough, but switching Stampede to 15s does nothing but throw builds into disarray because it's horribly out of sync with the 10-second blocks everyone using this skill had until now. Yes, DK has 14s and there's a few other outliers, which is already jarring with other skills, but people designed their setup around it, and they could make use of the new Stampede, but it breaks the others.

Ideally, everything would just be 10, 20, 30, 40, 50 or 60. But whatever the result is, please don't increase or decrease singular abilities from 10 to 15 or the like.

Tannus15

i'd prefer all 14 second dots changed to 15 so that we can do a skill either every rotation or the slightly more complicated 15s / 10s split rotations.

Jazraena

Hey, go for multiples of 15 for all I care. Just stop putting it all over the place. It only limits build choices, and changing durations outright breaks them, which I thought they wanted to avoid for a while.

WrathOfInnos

Hard disagree. Too many builds these days feel exactly the same. Different classes should be based around different timers, snd generic skills can be worked in with different morph durations.

Timers in general are also too long IMO, full DoT rotations aren't really an option anymore because there are not enough bar slots for 14-15 DoTs with 14-15s duration. Spammable builds are a great option, but should not be the only one.

I remember when Sorcerer had: 3.5s curse, 6s flood, and 6s unstable wall, along with random frag procs, executes and spammables to juggle. It was fast paced, dynamic, and very fun, also did not rely on pet AI (they were weak back then). Now Sorc has 3-4 10s DoTs and one 6s Daedric Prey, it's almost braindead. Crystal Frags isn't even dynamic because it is used as a spammable regardless of procs, and mage's wrath rarely earns a bar slot.

Jazraena

Mate, making it class specific reduces your build diversity. Harmonizing gives you alternatives for every slot to the point that two for example DKs can play very different from each other.

'Class Identity' died the moment they picked the random skill assortments we still have now. Let it rest.

Everest_Lionheart

Welcome to the new DK meta. Enjoy it while you can because you will be relegated to the worst DPS in 3-6 months.

Tannus15

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Hard disagree. Too many builds these days feel exactly the same. Different classes should be based around different timers, snd generic skills can be worked in with different morph durations.

Timers in general are also too long IMO, full DoT rotations aren't really an option anymore because there are not enough bar slots for 14-15 DoTs with 14-15s duration. Spammable builds are a great option, but should not be the only one.

I remember when Sorcerer had: 3.5s curse, 6s flood, and 6s unstable wall, along with random frag procs, executes and spammables to juggle. It was fast paced, dynamic, and very fun, also did not rely on pet AI (they were weak back then). Now Sorc has 3-4 10s DoTs and one 6s Daedric Prey, it's almost braindead. Crystal Frags isn't even dynamic because it is used as a spammable regardless of procs, and mage's wrath rarely earns a bar slot.

i'm having a lot of fun with armaments, frags, spammable, prey, bird. 1 pet builds are really strong this update and this rotation is much more interesting.

i know wrath is strong in pvp, but in pve it just feels like a dps loss. we just don't have the bar space for it and it doesn't hit hard enough to justify the dps loss pre-execute.

WrathOfInnos

Jazraena wrote: »

Mate, making it class specific reduces your build diversity. Harmonizing gives you alternatives for every slot to the point that two for example DKs can play very different from each other.

'Class Identity' died the moment they picked the random skill assortments we still have now. Let it rest.

You're not entirely wrong, but I'd say it's an optimistic viewpoint that two morphs of the same duration could be balanced closely enough for both to see use by different builds. More likely every build would pick the same one, we see this a lot.

For example, Blockade has seen little use in the last few years, outside of the occasional vAS push or Elf Bane build. If it was a better morph, or if the durations of unstable/blockade were something like 8s/12s then it would be a different story.

Even if balancing same-duration morphs was successful, I don't think 12 class/resource build combinations should all be counting to 10 with static rotations. Let some be based around 12s, others can be 8s, as well as 5s or 6s, some can be 15-20s with more room for spammables, and a couple can be complete dynamic chaos where nothing lines up nicely (some players love this).

Everest_Lionheart

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Mate, making it class specific reduces your build diversity. Harmonizing gives you alternatives for every slot to the point that two for example DKs can play very different from each other.

'Class Identity' died the moment they picked the random skill assortments we still have now. Let it rest.

You're not entirely wrong, but I'd say it's an optimistic viewpoint that two morphs of the same duration could be balanced closely enough for both to see use by different builds. More likely every build would pick the same one, we see this a lot.

For example, Blockade has seen little use in the last few years, outside of the occasional vAS push or Elf Bane build. If it was a better morph, or if the durations of unstable/blockade were something like 8s/12s then it would be a different story.

Even if balancing same-duration morphs was successful, I don't think 12 class/resource build combinations should all be counting to 10 with static rotations. Let some be based around 12s, others can be 8s, as well as 5s or 6s, some can be 15-20s with more room for spammables, and a couple can be complete dynamic chaos where nothing lines up nicely (some players love this).

Blockade streamlined and simplified the MagDK build especially under the current meta where you could easily too 110K DPS on the dummy. It performs even better in content because of its duration and you can really laser focus on your targets without having to refresh the dot as often and losing your beserker enchant and LA atk boost. Now it looks like they have given DK the same thing with stampede now.

For sure though no DPS outside of DK used the longer morph. Tanks and healers used it.

Jazraena

Oh, getting a choice between 10 and 15 would be another matter entirely. I'd still prefer harmonization, but at least it wouldn't break stuff.

Nullhawk3D

Jazraena wrote: »

Oh, getting a choice between 10 and 15 would be another matter entirely. I'd still prefer harmonization, but at least it wouldn't break stuff.

The nature of this ignores passives like DK's Searing Heat. Which increases DOT duration of DK abilities by 4 secs. So adjusting for Harmoninization means to set the main duration for DK skills to 6 or 11 to meet the 10 or 15 proposed harmonization? Or are you for just a flat increase to DK durations... this will definitely "break stuff"?

Jazraena

You're talking specifics that need to be addressed. I'm talking about the end result, whichever way gets picked to get there.

I will say though that passives increasing the duration (or other purely numerical values) of class skillsaren't exactly the most imaginative design in the first place.

Everest_Lionheart

Jazraena wrote: »

You're talking specifics that need to be addressed. I'm talking about the end result, whichever way gets picked to get there.

I will say though that passives increasing the duration (or other purely numerical values) of class skillsaren't exactly the most imaginative design in the first place.

With the initial design of DK they were a must. The skills cost too much to sustain over any real fight even at their increased duration. Once upon a time we had to run spell symmetry plus heavy attack to have enough mag to last though even dungeon boss fights. Now we have new CP passives and slottable plus increased health allowing us to to run mag recover food to go along with other buffed passives that actually make sustaining a set like Bahsei challenging, of course what we do is just remove skill points from those passives to compensate. Seems all kind of pointless (pun intended) to me.

Jazraena

You don't get what I mean.

A passive randomly increasing the duration of skills is a poorly designed passive. That's pure numerical stuff you could just as well bake into the actual skill and create something more imaginative for the passive instead. It's very 'They ran out of ideas that actually do stuff'.

Seraphayel

No. Rotations shouldn’t be made easier or less conflicting. Right now every build plays exactly the same. Get your buffs, set your dots, rinse and repeat. I understand where you’re coming from, but making the rotation even worse by making everything line up perfectly is incredibly boring.

Everest_Lionheart

Seraphayel wrote: »

No. Rotations shouldn’t be made easier or less conflicting. Right now every build plays exactly the same. Get your buffs, set your dots, rinse and repeat. It’s incredibly boring. I understand where you’re coming from, but making the rotation even worse by making everything line up perfectly is incredibly boring.

I would argue that it’s not rotations that need to change but game mechs. Outside of vet content there is no need todo anything to break your rotation no matter what the durations of the skills are. Even with variability of timers it’s all still the same. Let us hit harder but make us actually block or dodge roll more. Give bosses enrage mechanics if we push DPS too hard which would make healers valuable in 4 man content again to heal through those mechanics. Make is so outside of solo arenas you have to slot mitigation and healing. Make other armor traits actually matter for DPS other than divines. Make other mundus stones worthwhile for all builds. I mean everything is there to be used for a reason right?

Enough nerfing this, buffing that in an endless cycle of changes, let’s make all of the game content and mechanics actually matter.

Jazraena

Seraphayel wrote: »

No. Rotations shouldn’t be made easier or less conflicting. Right now every build plays exactly the same. Get your buffs, set your dots, rinse and repeat. I understand where you’re coming from, but making the rotation even worse by making everything line up perfectly is incredibly boring.

Stuff not lining up perfectly doesn't make the game more interesting in any way whatsoever. It just forces you to either a) choose from a far smaller list of abilities that do line up perfectly, thus reducing build diversity since you literally have less choice or b) suffer pointless penalties and tedium.

Switching to your backbar more often isn't hard. It doesn't create more engaging gameplay. It's just tedious.


And above all, stop changing it all the time. Irrespective of harmonizing all skills, just randomly switching Stampede from 10 to 15 right after they recognized the issue of change fatigue is a misstep either way.

Nullhawk3D

Jazraena wrote: »

You don't get what I mean.

A passive randomly increasing the duration of skills is a poorly designed passive. That's pure numerical stuff you could just as well bake into the actual skill and create something more imaginative for the passive instead. It's very 'They ran out of ideas that actually do stuff'.

Getting to your matter at hand, it appears - harmonizing all dot skills is what should be done regardless of the impact to the 100s of class skills and sets, purely for the sake of making rotations more manageable and consistent for all classes across the board? Is that correct?

Then essentially ZOS can just figure out the mathmatical balancing sequences in their, as you stated "poorly designed passive"(s)... awfully close to sounding like you "dislike the way proc durations occurs, so change entire game design mechanics to resolve"...

Jazraena

Nullhawk3D wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

You don't get what I mean.

A passive randomly increasing the duration of skills is a poorly designed passive. That's pure numerical stuff you could just as well bake into the actual skill and create something more imaginative for the passive instead. It's very 'They ran out of ideas that actually do stuff'.

Getting to your matter at hand, it appears - harmonizing all dot skills is what should be done regardless of the impact to the 100s of class skills and sets, purely for the sake of making rotations more manageable and consistent for all classes across the board? Is that correct?

Then essentially ZOS can just figure out the mathmatical balancing sequences in their, as you stated "poorly designed passive"(s)... awfully close to sounding like you "dislike the way proc durations occurs, so change entire game design mechanics to resolve"...

No, it is not correct. As I have said before. It's especially mystifying how you now brought Procs into it.

Nullhawk3D

Jazraena wrote: »

Nullhawk3D wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

You don't get what I mean.[...]

No, it is not correct. As I have said before. It's especially mystifying how you now brought Procs into it.

I understand so to help demystify this and simplify:

• Skill duration times not harmonized.
• Durations should be 10 Seconds.

That is all.

Jazraena

Sorry mate, but I think something is lost in translation here.

Nullhawk3D

Jazraena wrote: »

Sorry mate, but I think something is lost in translation here.

Perhaps... maybe you would like to re-explain and provide an example of your thought processes here?

That would help in lining out what you believe would be beneficial in your initial post.

ajkb78

I suspect from their rethink of Nazaray that's what's coming. Rather than have that set extend dots as well as debuffs, next patch we'll see all dots and buffs standardised in length so every rotation on every class becomes dot 1, dot 2, dot 3, dot 4, dot 5, spam x 5, repeat. For advanced players, put 1 spammable in the middle of the dots to keep up stacks of sets that provide standardised 5s stacks. Maybe some classes will have 4 dots and 6 spam but I worry that's where we're heading.

Vaoh

ajkb78 wrote: »

I suspect from their rethink of Nazaray that's what's coming. Rather than have that set extend dots as well as debuffs, next patch we'll see all dots and buffs standardised in length so every rotation on every class becomes dot 1, dot 2, dot 3, dot 4, dot 5, spam x 5, repeat. For advanced players, put 1 spammable in the middle of the dots to keep up stacks of sets that provide standardised 5s stacks. Maybe some classes will have 4 dots and 6 spam but I worry that's where we're heading.

Unfortunately yes, that is already how most classes play while still getting close enough to their full dps. When people say combat in eso is boring it’s either because:
1. They wanted TES combat instead of the MMO-style combat from ESO
2. They played awhile but eventually got bored due to strictly static rotations

Jazraena

Nullhawk3D wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Sorry mate, but I think something is lost in translation here.

Perhaps... maybe you would like to re-explain and provide an example of your thought processes here?

That would help in lining out what you believe would be beneficial in your initial post.

In the short term, I want them to not randomly change the duration of single abilities to anything not a multiple of the original value. That only forces people using those abilities in their rotation right now to change their builds since they no longer fit.

In the long term, I'd like them to harmonize DoT and Buff Durations (be that to 10 or 15 as a base) so we have no more wildly diverging durations of 10, 12, 14, 15 seconds and multiples thereof, so every build has access to a greater selection of abilities to integrate into their setup. A change like this, however, would require more involved work than just a number adjustment, such as addressing the DK, Nightblade and similar duration passives and effects (like Elfbane), and so on.

ajkb78

I hope you don't get your wish - every platform has ability timers now so doing a proper dynamic rotation isn't particularly hard these days even on console, and dynamic gives a bit of headroom for improvement over a boring static rotation and prolongs the interest of combat. Having said that, from the noises ZoS have been making recently I fear you will get what you're asking for sooner or later.

Jazraena

I've said it before and I'll say it again - mismatched ability timers add tedium, not 'interest'. It's not hard to switch to backbars irregularly, it's just annoying.

Everest_Lionheart

ajkb78 wrote: »

I hope you don't get your wish - every platform has ability timers now so doing a proper dynamic rotation isn't particularly hard these days even on console, and dynamic gives a bit of headroom for improvement over a boring static rotation and prolongs the interest of combat. Having said that, from the noises ZoS have been making recently I fear you will get what you're asking for sooner or later.

Still have to watch the buffs and debuffs on some skills because switching bars makes the timers or bars go away on skills like scalding rune. Super annoying when you cast it but not sure it actually landed. And you have to check the debuff bar to make sure. I’ve seen other skills countdown restart like degeneration even though the damage portion may not actually be active, but the buff is so you need to check the debuff bar to make sure.

Those timers on console need serious work.

WrathOfInnos

Jazraena wrote: »

I've said it before and I'll say it again - mismatched ability timers add tedium, not 'interest'. It's not hard to switch to backbars irregularly, it's just annoying.

Bars swaps have nothing to do with it. We could have 1 skill bar with 10 slots and it would make little difference.

Varying timers allow for more complex rotations. I recall one a few months back that allowed Necromancer to get a few thousand DPS more than the typical 10s loop, but required performing simultaneous 9s and 12s rotations of 3 and 4 DoTs independently, while using Blastbones to fill the gaps between them. You could map the whole thing out as a 36s static rotation, but I doubt many players could memorize it like that.

Another example is my old magden 22s static, that was based around the cooldown of the bear. On average it cast Winter's Revenge every 11s, despite it being a 12s DoT, and allowed Fetcher and Wall to drop for 1s twice per rotation. It kept Deep Fissure high priority, with 7 casts in 22s, or only 1s of downtime, and also timed it so they always landed while on front bar with higher stats and multipliers (same with the bear).

It's more about discovering which skills can be overcast slightly, and which can drop off for 1-2s, while also optimizing skill placement on each bar and ensuring you're on front bar for the bursty moments. There's great complexity and some ambiguity with the meta that makes many builds and rotations far more interesting than a series of 10 skills repeated.

Everest_Lionheart

I have a Necro rotation of 22 skills with 11 bar swaps that hits 109K that lets a couple dots fall off for a second and another of 20 skills with only 6 bar swaps that overcasts 1 and let’s 1 fall off that hits 107K, care to take a guess which one I bring to content?

The one with less swaps of course because it was easier to manage trial mechs around a simplified rotation.

Changing your the timers may help bridge the gap for those that forget to refresh their dots but I am willing to bet the longer timers do very little for the floor and put the ceiling that much further ahead. Do you know what kind of damage I can do with 3+ extra GCD per rotation?

Nullhawk3D

Jazraena wrote: »

Nullhawk3D wrote: »

Jazraena wrote: »

Sorry mate, but I think something is lost in translation here.

Perhaps... maybe you would like to re-explain and provide an example of your thought processes here?

That would help in lining out what you believe would be beneficial in your initial post.

In the short term, I want them to not randomly change the duration of single abilities to anything not a multiple of the original value. That only forces people using those abilities in their rotation right now to change their builds since they no longer fit.

In the long term, I'd like them to harmonize DoT and Buff Durations (be that to 10 or 15 as a base) so we have no more wildly diverging durations of 10, 12, 14, 15 seconds and multiples thereof, so every build has access to a greater selection of abilities to integrate into their setup. A change like this, however, would require more involved work than just a number adjustment, such as addressing the DK, Nightblade and similar duration passives and effects (like Elfbane), and so on.

It appears you are getting your way with the harmonization of DoT and HoT skills. Not certain if this is the outcome you envisioned, but it is showing to be disasterous. Oh well...