The Inevitable Discussion of Ingame Rewards

colossalvoids

Class reps are currently in a bit different positions, they're forwarding community feedback mostly now as far as I'm aware so it's pretty different now.

_Zathras_

colossalvoids wrote: »

Class reps are currently in a bit different positions, they're forwarding community feedback mostly now as far as I'm aware so it's pretty different now.

Hmm, that's good to know. I found a quote from CAB_Life where he gives that update.

".. as you hopefully know we only gather and relay feedback, we do not have direct say over ZOS’s creative vision."

Seminolegirl1992

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Saieden wrote: »

What your entire post boils down to is that it can never be perfect, so we should all just be happy with we have.

Nope.

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Back to my original answer to the OP's question: it simply isn't possible to find a "consistent, ESO-unique reward system satisfying for every player of every activity". If that is the goal you are chasing, then you have already failed.

My point is that not everyone can be pleased. Trying to find One Reward To Rule Them All is futile.

All you have to do is read the threads in this forum, or any other, going back as far as you can tolerate. It simply isn't possible to achieve what the OP is proposing,

I don't think that's true. I don't think Nefas is trying to find rewards to please "everyone." In fact, he stated at the very beginning of the post that he thinks account wide achievements have an overall positive effect personally, and I would agree. If you read the whole thing, his argument was that large numbers of people don't find the reward system in ESO very rewarding. And is he wrong on that? I would argue no. The reward system in much of the entire game is relatively lackluster. There have been some interesting proposed solutions here that I think ZOS should consider. Nefas is not wrong when he says that the endgame pve community has little incentive to redo content over and over and over and over again, and that it lacks consistency. Sometimes there's a skin, head/body markings, a mount, and of course the title. And that's it. Are they great..I mean, not really. Once I got TTT, I didn't want to set foot in that trial again. Same with Sunspire HMs. What's the point now? I have the gear I want, I have the motifs, I have the achievement furnishings. And I don't care about the stupid cat, not that I'm even sure I'm capable anyway. His point was that people complaining about losing their one incentive (earning titles on multiple characters being taken away, effectively) was that they're complaining because ESO doesn't offer decent rewards or incentive to continue doing hard content. And now the only thing that they have is now being taken. This isn't a "well you can't please everyone" thing. He compared ESO's lack of rewards to other games that have much more unique systems in place that offer nice cosmetic things outside of the crown store. That's a net benefit for the entire populace of ESO. Your other argument was that the forums have become a toxic place, sort of implying that any suggestion to improvement of the game is inherently toxic. The forums exist so that we can have discussion, share creations, ideas, etc. Anyway. Back to your point that "it's not possible to achieve what the OP is proposing." Is it not? How is it "not possible" to improve the attitudes of a "large number of people" as Nefas put it? I've seen plenty of posts/comments on the forums saying things like, "thank you so much for hearing us ZOS" or "thanks for your transparency, that means a lot" or "omg, I can't wait for xyz, finally." How would improving the base reward system in ESO for pve end game, pvp, daily rewards, bgs, etc not make "a large number of people" happy? It...obviously would, thus it is possible to make folks happy.

Seminolegirl1992

Arthtur wrote: »

Well i was always saying that good rewards keep content alive :x

About acount-wide achievements - i dont like them (at least not in this "version" that we have on PTS) but i see why some ppl want this. I dont want to talk about this too much as there is multiple threads about this but... It should be pushed back and made better. Right now its hurts more than helps in my opinion.

About the rewards...
Yes playing the game is fun. But when im doing the hardest trifecta in DLC Dungeons then i would expect to get something and im not talking about one time reward right now. What we get now for doing dungeons on vet? Purple gear + 50% chance for motif. On HM? 100% for motif. Trifecta? Nothing. So when dlc dungeons are brand new or old we are losing gold. We spend more on potions than we get from doing dungeon... We get gold when there is motif to get but the price is going down rly fast and in the end only chests/legs and maybe 1 more page is selling well. But when there is Style Page for Monster Mask... well u can start giving those motifs almost for free. Im not having problems with gold but it just doesnt fell right. How would casual players feel when They have to pay 10k gold for starting the zone quest while rewards for doing it is "fun" and 5k gold? Of course there will be ppl who dont care about those things as They only need fun and its okay. But some ppl need some rewards for doing content and this is okay too. it not like anyone will lose anything when there is more rewards.

About the rewards from achievements.
Im not a fan of titles. My name is my title. But everyone likes diffrent things so i never complained about those. But looking at what ZOS is doing with rewards for content right now.... Well i will do a comparison:

Short info for ppl who dont know about achievements in dlc dungeons:
Conqueror achievement - you get this for beating dungeon on veteran difficulty.
Challenger achievement - you get this for having No Death, Speedrun and HM achievements. U dont need to do all of those in 1 run.
Trifecta achievement - you get this for No Death, Speedrun and HM run. U need to do all of those in 1 run.

Shadows of the Hist - 29.07.2016

Cradle of Shadows:
- Conqueror - Nothing
- Hardmode - Nothing
- Challenger - Skin
- No Trifecta

Ruins of Mazzatun:
- Conqueror - Nothing
- Hardmode - Nothing
- Challenger - Skin
- No trifecta

For both Conqueror achievements - Title
Foe entering any of those 2 for first time - Personality

Horns of the Reach DLC - 14.08.2017

Falkreath Hold:
- Conqueror - Title reward
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger - Skin
- No Trifecta achievement

Bloodroot Forge:
- Conqueror - Title
- HardMode - Title
- Challenger - Hat
- No Trifecta achievement

For both Conqueror achievements - Color
For entering any of those 2 for first time - emote

In addition to this for having BOTH Conqueror achievements you can buy a house in Craglorn (Hakkvild's High Hall - Noble House) for 3kk gold.

Dragon Bones - 12.02.2018

Fang Lair:
- Conqueror - Title
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger - Personality
- Trifecta - Nothing

Scalecaller Peak:
- Conqueror - Title
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger - Skin
- Trifecta - Nothing

For both Conqueror achievements - Color
For entering first time - Hat

Wolfhunter - 11.08.2018

Moonhunter Keep:
- Conqueror - Title
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger - Skin
- Trifecta - Nothing

March of Sacrifices:
- Conqueror - Title
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger - Personality
- Trifecta - Nothing
- Reward for secrets - Memento (can be done on normal)

For both Conqueror achievements - Color
For entering first time - Hat

Wrathstone - 25.02.2019

Frostvault:
- Conqueror - Non-combat pet
- Hardmode - Nothing
- Challenger - Title
- Trifecta - Nothing

Depths of Malatar:
- Conqueror - Skin
- Hardmode - Nothing
- Challenger - Title
- Trifecta - Nothing

For both Conqueror achievements - Color
For entering first time - Hat

In addition sometimes u can get special furnishings as a drop. Drop rate is low.

Scalebreaker - 27.08.2019

Moongrave Fane:
- Conqueror - Non-combat pet
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger - Title
- Trifecta - Nothing

Lair of Maarselok:
- Conqueror - Memento
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger - Title
- Trifecta - Nothing

For both Conqueror achievements - Color + outfit style for shoulders
For entering first time - outfit style for helmets
For completing both on normal - furniture (this unlocks new wing in the home u get for doing Elsweyr main quest)

In addition sometimes u can get special blueprints as a drop from last boss. Drop rate is low.

Harrowstorm - 10.03.2020

Icereach:
- Conqueror - Outfit style, 2h axe
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger- Nothing
- Trifecta - Title

Unhallowed Grave:
- Conqueror - Body marking
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger - Nothing
- Trifecta - Title
- Reward for secrets - Head marking (can be done on normal)

For both Conqueror achievements - Color
For entering first time - emote

This is first DLC dungeon pack with the reward for trifecta achievement. Its still only title tho.

Stonethorn - 24.08.2020

Castle Thorn:
- Conqueror - Skin
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger - Nothing
- Trifecta - Title

Stone Garden:
- Conqueror - Memento
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger - Nothing
- Trifecta - Title

For both Conqueror achievements - Color
For entering first time - Non-combat pet

Flames of Ambition - 08.03.2021

The Cauldron:
- Conqueror - Skin
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger - Nothing
- Trifecta - Title

Black Drake Villa:
- Conqueror - Memento
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger - Nothing
- Trifecta - Title
- For secrets - there is a chance that u get a tool that shows you and your group extra chests in dungeon. Nothing for achievements.

For both Conqueror achievements - color
For entering first time - Outfit style, maul

Waking Flame - 23.08.2021

Red Petal Bastion:
- Conqueror - Body marking
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger - Nothing
- Trifecta - Title

The Dread Cellar:
- Conqueror - Memento
- Hardmode - Title
- Challenger - Nothing
- Trifecta - Title

For both Conqueror achievements - Color
For entering first time - Non-combat pet
For both secrets - Head Marking

And in the newest dungeons we have 6 titles, 2 mementos, 1 color and body marking + head marking

So i dont know what others think but for me rewards for achievements are going lower and lower. And if somebody wants to say that we have pandemic... ZOS didnt had any problems with adding mounts and pets for Collector Edition for the newest DLC Dungeons. Yes those would 100% work as a reward for achievements. And no im not saying that ZOS should stop making money. Its just u get a lot better stuff for buying those dungeons than playing them. Its shouldnt work that way.

So what would i do? Well...
If we talk about rewards from dungeons then:
- Add some furnishings/blueprints as a drop
- Instead of purple gear add gold gear for HM
- Add a chance for materials as a rewards. It could scale witch achievements - u did speedrun in this run so +10% chance for this reward, u did speedrun and no death so +20% chance for this reward.
- Add extra motif, gear drops and 100% chance for blueprint/furnishing/any extra reward for Trifecta.
- Maybe even add materials nodes in dungeons that u and your group can collect. But those would need to drop more raw materials.
- Add Transmute crystals as a reward for doing dungeons

Idealy everyone would have a reason to do those dungeons. Casual players could do it on normal for fun and still get some extra reward and veteran players could go full farming mode in their favorite dungeon instead of farming in overland.

If we talk about rewards for achievements then:
- I would add a simple "system":
First DLC pack - Mount for trifecta/challenger, tatoos for conqueror, something extra for doing it on normal/entering first time, Title for each of achievements (Conqueror, Challenger/HM, Trifecta), hat, pet or something else for secret if there is.
Second DLC pack - Personality for trifecta/challenger, skin for conqueror. Rest the same as in the 1 pack.
In both:
Statue for Trifecta Achievement (i love busts and i would rly like statues for tri)
Some extras, maybe every second year? Like house that u can buy with gold.

Of course those are only ideas based on what i like so not everyone will like this.

Also i would increase the chance of getting motif on normal so weaker players can farm it too.

And no. Im not trying to gatekeep the best rewards in the hardest content. Im trying to add rewards to each content.

About trials im not that great. I didnt do much of those but... u need 12 ppl for trials and getting achievements is a lot harder. I rly think there should be more rewards than just titles and single skin/mount per trial....

About overland... well for me overland is just too easy so im not playing much in there but still... There should be added base mounts for each zone (Guar in VV etc.) and better stuff for group events. Right now most rewards for overland are: motifs for daily quests and stuff in public dungeons that u need to grind for hours or days to get. And group events rewards have rly low drop rate because its "group" content... also i would add some special drops for world bosses.

About events:
About those im happy and sad at the same time. I rly liked furnishings rewards for Blackwood event but New Life and Undaunted were boring... I think ZOS should "rework" the 4 main events of the year. I prefer "pick what u want" instead of "u get everything anyway". And Undaunted Celebration.... the only event for dungeons... and it rewards for running in nFG1...

About Community Events(chapter events):
Im not gonna lie. I rly didnt like rewards for Blackwood chapter event. Like i got "free" dlc worth 2k crowns that im having anyway because i have ESO+ 99% of the time.... So i got something but not rly. But the point is reward fot those are going down too.
Summerset - Psijic Villa - Worth 13k crowns i think?
Elsweyr - Trial Dummy - Worth 6k crowns
Western Skyrim - House - around 10k crowns probably
Blackwood - DLC - worth 2k crowns and ppl who have ESO+ didnt rly needed it that much.

So yeah. If i look just at the crown price it rly hurts. Of course some ppl dont like houses, some dont have eso+ so free dlc was great for them. Sooo... in my opinion ZOS should add few options as a reward and everyone can pick what they like the most.

And after all of this if we look at the Crown Store.... We are getting outfit styles for 400 gems... We get more and more stuff that costs more and more. ZOS has 0 problems with creating over 40 new mounts each year (10+ per crown season). Its almost like new mount each week. I rly dont see a problem in spending few weeks on creating rewards for content instead for Crown Store. Like if we get 38 mounts this year in Crown Store instead of 42... I dont think anything would break.
I dont have any problems with ZOS selling stuff in Crown Store. But in my opinion They focus on the Crown store too much right now.

Better content in the game = more players = more ppl buying crowns = more money for ZOS. At least thats what i think.


So yeah. I rly want to see better rewards for doing content in the game.
And if somebody is interested why my post is so long - well, i planned on creating thread like this later so i had some stuff ready :x

Well said, and these ideas would certainly incentivize me to replay content after I've gotten all motifs and achievements worth any salt.

Thoragaal

I just feel like people (including myself) that want some incentive for accomplishing something are beating a dead horse at this point. It's been requested for several years already. From my perspective, I think ZOS wants everyone (regardless of skill level) to have access to as much as possible "You don't want to do dungeon/trials/pvp to get this? Don't worry, gather some flowers, sell it and just buy the stuff from other players instead!".
I feel like they are pandering to the lowest denominator, with almost every major change they've made since Imperal City was released (2015, or whenever it went free-to-play).
I think they'd be happy if more people stayed and played the game (who wouldn't?) but that their priority lies in getting more people to start playing the game (the "20 million" players) rather than keeping the current player base (maybe a few hundred thousands players?) happy/satisfied.
Even if I personally would like a change in rewards/incentives I don't think it aligns with the goals ZOS has; I think we're beating a dead horse.

AinSoph

Just gonna say that the very well-known player behavior of people leaving this game for weeks, months, even years then coming back randomly or near patch days may be a side effect of lackluster rewards, even if slightly. This game seems to have a somewhat hard time retaining players.

LalMirchi

Somehow I do not find the rewards very rewarding in most games and to be truthful, I do not really care. This game and it's playability somehow provides a lot of pleasure, what I personally call "Pleasurable Waste of Time" PWOT in other words.

The specifics are very actual for the aficionados but not critical for the average player IMHO.

Serafen

Sadly they will always focus on the crown store instead of giving us great rewards we can actually earn in the game. 😥

peacenote

Hello,

I waited a bit to absorb and think about @Nefas 's post, because I have the utmost respect for not just the content he creates, but how and why he selects topics to discuss.

I think this was a very important post, with which I agree almost completely except for the conclusion that account-wide achievements are mostly good for the community. But that's OK; it's a good discussion to have and if we all agreed on everything we'd just be clones.

I've said it before and I think I need to start here, again. Account-wide achievements DO NOT equal account-wide titles. We can have one without the other. Everyone imagine for just a moment how dyes related to achievements work. Are you thinking about it? Ok, good. That's how titles COULD work. Probably with considerably less effort than what was developed for achievements. These are SEPARATE ISSUES.

The strong emotions about titles absolutely reflect what really is a lack of rewards in this game. And it's a tricky situation. It's tricky because people, even in a game that is supposed to be about having fun, will default to the most efficient way of doing things. Either it is human nature, or it is in SOME people's nature, enough that peer pressure and group thinking makes it so that the average player prioritizes activities, NOT by what they REALLY want to do for fun, but by what will make their time in game most productive. Almost like it's a second job. I've found that most people really struggle to articulate what they really want and stick to it. The world, the way it is today, makes it tough to unabashedly pursue what we most enjoy; in fact rarely can we even identify it.

I mean, why do we have "fake tanks and healers" in the dungeon queue? Why do we have many voices advocating that DLC dungeons be removed from the random queue for ESO+ subscribers? It's because people honestly will do whatever it takes to efficiently earn rewards and make the most of their time. No one accepts that a random dungeon means it can take 10 minutes or 60 minutes. Everyone assumes it is their right to earn the rewards in 10 minutes or less, because it CAN be done if you're lucky, and want the system to conform to that repeatable experience, resenting when the system doesn't provide this.

So, let's talk about rewards. First, people pursue rewards for... four? reasons... I think four main reasons.

1. External satisfaction - Bragging Rights: They want others to look at them and NOTICE that they did xyz. They want to work hard for something, and then show it off, and their satisfaction comes from knowing that when people see the reward, they KNOW that this accomplishment was done.
   
   These folks are the ones who will be most up-in-arms about the loss of character specific titles. These folks are the ones who were upset that the Sunspire skin was very close to the one available in the Crown Store. They typically care less about doing everything, at least easily, and more about the fact that when they do something, their reward is unique and recognizable.
   
   Between gold/crown trading, carries, inconsistent rewards for difficult achievements, and now with account-wide titles possibly in the next patch, ZOS is greatly lacking in ways to provide satisfaction to players driven by a desire for bragging rights.
   
   This could be somewhat mitigated by making silly titles that aren't difficult to be account-wide, but doing something special for EXTREMELY difficult or time consuming titles so it shows whether the character specifically earned them or not. Not all titles are created equal - why should the solution be this way?
   
   
2. External satisfaction - Gatekeeping: These folks pursue a reward that will allow them to show they accomplished something, in order to meet minimum requirements for another activity.
   
   These folks are the ones who would most benefit from purely account-wide everything, because they are doing things not for themselves or even recognition but because they feel they have to. This creates feelings of negativity, bitterness, and resentment. Any scenarios where there is less of this pressure brings a sense of relief. However, I think it's a pipe dream to think that elimination of a method for external measuring will do away with external measuring.
   
   These folks will be most happy with any steps towards account-wide achievements, at least at first, and are most at odds with the bragging-rights folks.
   
   This is also the most difficult problem to solve, because humans have had "requirements" for things since probably the beginning of time. It won't go away just because we make account-wide achievements. It will just push those verifications to other areas, like more test runs or requiring videos of clears on certain characters.
   
   
3. Internal satisfaction - Advancement: Folks driven by this look to GET something that will help them achieve something else. They want money, gold, transmutes, experience... whatever. They prioritize their time by what they get for it, and it needs to be something they can use. These are the folks that are big on fake tanking and fake healing. These are the folks that choose what they do based on what gear drops in a place, whether something is a daily, etc.
   
   This is another area where ZOS is lacking. Rewards to repeat Trials, Dungeons, or almost any content are lacking. An achievement popping on an alt doesn't cut it. These folks would actually benefit from achievement points translating to SOMETHING in game, and being allowed to accumulate achievement points each time something was done. Say, every 100 achievement points could be turned into transmutes or endeavors or writs. This would be motivating for these folks... but only if achievements not only continue to be tracked per-character, but to a certain extent can be tracked by number of times achieved. If you get speed mode 25 times in Depths of Malatar, you get 5 Crowns or whatever. Idk what people want, but I know that something like this would help motivate folks. Bonus if you could earn this per character, because it would incentivize people to play their tanks and healers.
   
   On the flip side of this, these folks often aren't driven by achievements right now, because they don't do anything once you get them once (except for titles) which means they will support things going account-wide as the achievements seem a waste of time, being attached to no tangible reward. Therefore, they seem in alignment with the gatekeeping folks, but would actually benefit from MORE tangible rewards being tied to achievements, and repeating achievements.
   
   
4. Internal satisfaction - Pride/Nostalgia: Folks driven by this enjoy doing things primarily from an internal drive to challenge themselves or to go on a journey. Rewards received along this journey make them happy because they are pleased they accomplished something, and look back on the reward as a personal milestone.
   
   These folks are well-served by the current achievement system, would enjoy another layer of account-wide tracking, and are most misunderstood and at risk with account-wide achievements on the table. They enjoy the game popping up with a notice when they did something. They enjoy looking backing and knowing each and every time they did something, on each character, because it's the journey that they enjoy. Erasing that long journey is a devastating (and possibly game-breaking) thought to many. They frequently decide to do something in game just for the fun of achieving it, and only need the satisfaction of checking off the box on that specific character.

I definitely agree that a big part of the problem here is that people who complete difficult achievements have very little to show for it. They hang on to titles and separate achievements per character because there are no other rewards. This should be remedied. However, it's not the only part of the story, and people who are driven by internal pride and nostalgia are LOSING a lot in order to please the folks in the gatekeeping category, who are tired of having to earn titles on different characters just to be accepted into a group.

It is complicated, especially since people can be driven by more than one thing. For example, I personally am never motivated by bragging rights (I hate random attention in game) and couldn't care less if people buy carries, share titles across characters, etc. As long as I know what I earned and when I earned it, per character, and have a record of it for myself, I'm happy. But I'm also driven by advancement, and will choose activities that give me something I don't have (say, a dungeon or trial that still needs stickerbook completed, or a dungeon that is the pledge), over pure pride/nostalgia, depending on my mood. And I will do things for gatekeeping, but not to the point that I resent doing them... if I get that angry about it I give up on the thing I'm trying to join, instead.

Lastly, it is an issue - which Nefas mentioned - that rewards can be a dye, a title, a memento, or nothing... and the reward never equals difficulty. So, say I love a dye or personality but am "meh" about a memento or furnishing. I might do something REALLY DIFFICULT and get a memento I don't care about. That's not motivating to do something once, let alone multiple times. Really the achievement system should be separated from SPECIFIC rewards, at least for anything "difficult," and instead generate points that can unlock the rewards you want. Now, I understand that those rewards can be the carrot that get a player to try PvP, or Housing, or whatever, but if the achievement system tracked individual and global, but only gave you points for the first time you did an achievement (unless it was an achievement that gave rewards because it tracked # of times completed as a bonus), eventually folks would still be encouraged to move to that other content, either to get the points, or for some of the other rewards, like style motifs, gear, leads, etc.

TLDR: I believe rewards should be addressed, and are a big part of the problem with titles and replayability of content. However, I think there are roughly four categories of reward motivators and eliminating character-specific achievements is detrimental to at least one of those four categories. Rewards should be related but separate from achievements so we don't have to lose the record of what we've done or will do in order to fix the reward problem. My two cents, of course.

AinSoph

Amottica wrote: »

Great post.

But, what is a class representative? First I have seen a tag on someone who posted.

What class does @Nefas represent?

I have been around for about 9 months now, why have I not heard or seen a class representative until now?

Probably the most important question is, what does a class representative do? I am guessing tutor new players or something.

This isn't a bad post by any means, but the fact that it exists really says a lot.

offbymyself

Honestly, the titles are the rewards, since that's about all you can earn (outside of the Sunspire or Rockgrove trifecta mounts). Seals of Endeavors were a half-hearted attempt at an in-game rewards system that wouldn't cost the players actual money. Even then, you need A LOT of seals to even be able to afford anything. There's a huge player base so it's sad that we don't have a better reward system.

wheresbes

Nefas wrote: »

The Elder Scrolls Online falls rather short of fulfilling the players' sense of achievement in rewards.

Ironically enough, for many players what fulfils the sense of achievement is... achievements.

And the beauty of those was that they were not a one time reward.