The Anti-Ball Group Sets again buff ball groups

doesurmindglow

Again, they buff ball groups. You'd think we learned this from Vicious Death, Plaguebreak, and Dark Convergence. Why do we keep making the same mistake?

Ball groups run optimized compositions that usually include these sets and they also are usually fighting outnumbered. They tend to utilize set bonuses at greater efficiency, with rare exceptions, than the less organized and more casual groups they're fighting. So sets like these are huge buffs to their raids, while appearing to be the opposite:

Hew and Sunder (Medium)
2 – Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
3 – Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
4 – Adds 129 Weapon and Spell Damage
5 – When you deal damage with a Heavy Attack, gain 1236 Offensive Penetration for each enemy within 8 meters of your target for 10 seconds. This effect can occur once every 7 seconds.

Enervating Aura (Heavy)
2 – Adds 4% Healing Taken
3 – Adds 1206 Maximum Health
4 – Adds 1487 Armor
5 – When you deal Direct Damage, you have a 10% chance to create an area under the target that detonates after 1 second, applying Enervating Aura for 10 seconds. Enervating Aura lowers the Health Recovery, Magicka Recovery, and Stamina Recovery of enemy Players by 129 per player hit. This effect can occur once every 15 seconds.

So too will the buff, err, bug fix, to Dark Convergence.

I can't tell if the intent is to give ball groups more toys to play with, but I do think it's important to caution that's exactly what we're doing, now, on the PTS, before it goes live and we all are shocked to find that out.

The first RotW set proposed does this the right way: it scales down the bonus based on the number of people in your group. That's a slightly better way to implement a set bonus to "end ball groups," if that is, in fact, the intent. I am skeptical any meaningful change to eliminate, reduce, or disincentivize "ball grouping" can be accomplished by means of set bonuses, precisely for the reason that the groups also have access to, and usually are more effective at using, the sets. I also don't know if it can or should be accomplished at all: it's sorta like saying we can fix bugs in trials by getting rid of score-pushing groups.

But if we are trying to do that, better implementation is at least set bonuses that scale down according to group size, or much better yet, structural changes to the core game mechanics in Cyrodiil that reduce the length of stalemated "farming" fights at single objective, such as longer and harder cooldowns on rezzes, or increasing the distance from the objective that people can rez and return to farming or being farmed.

TequilaFire

An organized smart group will still win with just training swords against players that refuse to cooperate and put an effort in to their composition.

doesurmindglow

This is true, and probably why it's silly to be targeting such groups with set bonuses. That said, we shouldn't be surprised when targeting them with set bonuses results in the opposite of the intended outcome.

neferpitou73

TequilaFire wrote: »

An organized smart group will still win with just training swords against players that refuse to cooperate.

This.

But regardless I do want to comment on the sets:

Hew and Sunder--let's pretend I'm attacking an enemy ball group (or a zerg for that matter for a second). Use lightning staff heavy attack before I go in. I get an instant 15k pen (assuming I hit all 12, even if I only hit 8-9 it's still ~10k). Let me pop Balorgh there's another ~11k combine that with sharpened maces and we have 30k+ pen. The enemy might as well be walking around naked.

Enervating Aura

I'm torn on this set because it will likely cause some problems for ball groups, in the short term, since their healing will go down. However, it will also be pretty easy to use on pugs. Combine it with DC, scoop everyone up, proc this and all their regen is gone. Although I guess at least they'll have an excuse for their skills not working.

My prediction for the meta with these sets, especially the second is that groups are going to invest more into damage shields and synergies

VaranisArano

TequilaFire wrote: »

An organized smart group will still win with just training swords against players that refuse to cooperate.

Generally, yes.

I'm not sure it follows that therefore we hand them a set that lets them debuff the disorganized zerg for the low price of one group member wearing the new set and doing direct damage.

Thing is, I can't see anyone who's not in a guild group running Enervating Aura. The debuffs are small enough that it's not going to appeal to PUGs as a replacement for the gear they already run, since they have no one to depend on to take advantage of the weakened ball group. But the debuffs are good enough that a guild group who can get their damage on target will weaken the zerg and take advantage of the window of opportunity.

Hew and Sunder I can at least see anti-ball group players using it for a quick buff before they start their attack. But ball groups can also run with bombers in their own ranks. A Hew and Sunder buffed guild bomber is going to hit like a truck whenever the ball group maneuvers their enemy into a choke point (which they do on a regular basis).

I have to agree with the OP - it feels like ball groups got new toys. That's not necessarily a bad thing. I happen to like ball group style play. It's just worth noting that it IS a thing, if ZOS wasn't intending for that to be the case.

neferpitou73

The paradox of the ball group: Any set that is added to counteract ball groups can only be effectively used by ball groups

doesurmindglow

Yeah I think it's all part of the insanity of trying to "address" ball groups this way. There is no set, or combination of sets, that will stop a better organized group with access to the same sets. It's very silly to even try, if that's what we are doing here. I'm actually sure what the intention of these sets are, but the clear and obvious outcome will be an increasing gap in the advantage an organized, coordinated "ball" group has over a zerg of disorganized, less coordinated players. We're now looking at several sets and abilities that scale with the number of targets that will be easily combined especially in a "ball group" composition to great advantage over anyone not in such composition.

If widening that gap isn't actually intended, these sets probably need to be reworked. One option is to give them the Ring of the Pale Order treatment as has been done to some extent with the first set. Another option I guess is to cap the bonuses so they don't keep scaling as you add more and more pugs to the meat grinder? I don't know. The whole thing seems so poorly designed and probably toxic, it's probably best avoided entirely. I'm working on testing the sets against large target groups (ie. many target dummies) to show how ridiculous this is likely to be in practice.

If the goal is to limit the amount of players who stack a given objective or map location, there are much better ways of accomplishing that worth considering. One I'd personally like to see them try is making it harder to endlessly respawn at the same objective; like put a cooldown on keeps similar to the one you have for forward camps. This kind of change would be annoying and isn't without its own issues, but in implementation it would spread out the player population far more readily than any of these set bonuses.

Wolfpaw

Faction zergs are what cause performance problems, not ball groups. If anything, ZOS has supported ball groups with updates.

doesurmindglow

Yes, ZOS has a long history of supporting ball groups with sets like these, and that trend appears likely to continue. I don't know if that's what's intended or not, but that will be the result.

Some initial testing of this shows you can achieve 50k spell penetration pretty easily; stacking 18 targets with Dark Convergence and then procing Balorgh gets you there. At that number and with that stack, Dark Convergence hits each target for nearly 40k.

doesurmindglow

Oops, that 40k figure is for the initial 10 meter proc on Dark Convergence. The second, 3 meter proc (hits fewer targets obviously) clocks in at nearly 60k:



Very broken stuff.

doesurmindglow

[Quoted post has been removed.]

I don't think your idea is a bad one either. It's an example of the kind of idea they should be pursuing if the goal is to adjust the size and scale of the fights in PVP. They should avoid the "silver bullet" set bonus that supposedly will end zerging or ball groups or whatever and instead just adjust the size and scale of the fights in PVP with different game modes, mechanical limitations, or other foundational approaches that are far more likely to achieve those results than giving us very overpowered item sets.

But I'm not trying to get too deep into the alternative here either, my goal is merely to express the feedback that these sets as currently tested on PTS appear to be highly overpowered and need adjustment.

milllaurie

TequilaFire wrote: »

An organized smart group will still win with just training swords against players that refuse to cooperate and put an effort in to their composition.

I can show you my friend, he kicks anyones butt with a lvl1 broom.
I agree, it is all l2p issues. Give a car to a monkey, it will store bananas in it.

Sandman929

There's no answer to be found in a set. Stacked heals and group purging has been called out ad nauseum, but it's clear that this is something ZOS simply doesn't want to address.

VaranisArano

Sandman929 wrote: »

There's no answer to be found in a set. Stacked heals and group purging has been called out ad nauseum, but it's clear that this is something ZOS simply doesn't want to address.

Plaguebreak: "Do I mean nothing to you?"

Inevitable Detonation: "Welcome to the Underused Counterplay Club, bro."

Tommy_The_Gun

The only way imho to actually balance solo vs group in a game without any MM (Cyro) is to do similar thing like ZOS already did with Pale Order mythic. It scales with the group size & gets weaker the larger the group is. Something similar could be added to battle spirit, so that sets, abilities, passive etc. would be weaker the more people are in the group. This would be barely noticeable by small scale group, but would be a substantial nerf for a ball groups & only ball groups (a nerf that is needed).

Ball group is a playstyle, that like everything - has its place & is needed. But, without a doubt it is over performing. It is "most effective tactic available". That is why we see people using this tactics. They don't do it be because they like it & to have fun. They use it because it has little to no counter-play. Whenever something becomes "BiS" (class, skill, set, play style) - it gets nerfed immediately. But ball groups ? They never received a substantial nerf.

If we had a valid counter-play against ball groups - then threads like this would not exist. But the truth is that every time we got "a counter" added to the game - it was a buff for those groups. Technically, Plaguebreak was such a counter, but it worked for a short time, as Ball Groups have adapted quite fast by reducing number of purges per second & added more healing over time.

xylena_lazarow

TequilaFire wrote: »

An organized smart group will still win with just training swords against players that refuse to cooperate and put an effort in to their composition.

After 8 years of "git gud" the majority of Cyro would still rather zerg as solos or pugs than form optimized groups. They can keep trying to "force" players into optimized groups for another 8 years but it will never change, only keep the toxicity coming. This past year of PvP population decline has been losing casuals/randoms/pugs more than organized tryhards.

VaranisArano

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

If we had a valid counter-play against ball groups - then threads like this would not exist. But the truth is that every time we got "a counter" added to the game - it was a buff for those groups. Technically, Plaguebreak was such a counter, but it worked for a short time, as Ball Groups have adapted quite fast by reducing number of purges per second & added more healing over time.

Nobody wants to hear it, but forcing the ball groups to adapt to use a less ideal set up IS a successful counter.

Sure, they've adapted, but on-demand Purge +HOTs was a lot stronger than more HOTs and spaced out purges. (From the perspective of a raid healer.)

Of course, the average PUG zerg might not have the coordination or on-target damage to take advantage of that relative weakness, but preventing and punishing easy purges is a significant counter to that ball group tactic.


The only real counter to every ball group tactic is to get organized, wear specific sets, use specific skills, and coordinate your attacks and movement. At that point, you've pretty much made your own ball group, so...

xylena_lazarow

VaranisArano wrote: »

Nobody wants to hear it, but forcing the ball groups to adapt to use a less ideal set up IS a successful counter... The only real counter to every ball group tactic is to get organized, wear specific sets, use specific skills, and coordinate your attacks and movement. At that point, you've pretty much made your own ball group, so...

Exactly, when players are forced into a narrow specific strategy and playstyle in order to be competitive, that's an oppressive metagame that needs to be adjusted. The groups that are on top now would still be on top without massive heal stacking or Snow Treaders, but group PvP would be a wider metagame more accessible to pugs and other playstyles.

kookster

If they really wanted to nerf ball groups they need to nerf cross healing like add diminishing returns multiple of the same healing skill at once on a person.

ArcVelarian

kookster wrote: »

If they really wanted to nerf ball groups they need to nerf cross healing like add diminishing returns multiple of the same healing skill at once on a person.

And slap a minuscule cast time on all AoE heals.

divnyi

I believe Enervating Aura hits will weaken ball groups harder than any other set existed before. 10% proc trigger is only sad part of this set, would be hard to combo.

Fennwitty

MAKE SIEGE ENGINES, NOT ARMOR SETS.

Literally zero risk to affecting IC or Battlegrounds or any random PvE cheese.

Ball groups are not very able to put down a siege weapon and shoot it since they're swarming around constantly.

Now I'm sure they'd find a way but it would be exceptionally awkward, and then others could siege down their sieges far easier than the ball group itself.

NordSwordnBoard

Imagine... a Deadric weapon that causes all enemy healing (including existing HoTs) from outside sources to cause damage for the amount of healing done within a x meter radius of the weapon. The damage done is returned to the wielder as healing. Part of de-optimization would be forcing self heals to a greater degree while effectively negating cross heals with a PBAoE - to keep up with the speedy. It's OP and doubles down on the AoE check lag when we need less of such things though.

divnyi

neferpitou73 wrote: »

Combine it with DC, scoop everyone up, proc this and all their regen is gone.

PUGs? Health will be gone faster than regen I think.

Qrähe

divnyi wrote: »

I believe Enervating Aura hits will weaken ball groups harder than any other set existed before. 10% proc trigger is only sad part of this set, would be hard to combo.

Agree, it actually will cause a shift in the playstyle, because the set has a cooldown fornthe wearer, but groups could end up with this on them permanently when they are running around, which is going to be much harder. Will be interessting to see the meta shift this brings.

Wolfpaw

The idea that an organized group can be dismantled by a set, or skill change just won't happen.

Get organized, or do not, that's the options.

doesurmindglow

divnyi wrote: »

I believe Enervating Aura hits will weaken ball groups harder than any other set existed before. 10% proc trigger is only sad part of this set, would be hard to combo.

Doubtful. They'll have the composition and resources to overcome the debuff if it poses any serious threat to them. What it will do, however, is utterly destroy disorganized pugs without either of those things, which is why I think it'll find its way into ball group composition like every. single. other. "anti-ball group." set.

There are solutions, if a "solution" is what developers are looking for. Some decent ideas from experienced players are offered here. But my main concern is not so much with identifying an alternative as much as it is warning that these sets will overperform if allowed to advance to the live server without adjustment.

doesurmindglow

Wolfpaw wrote: »

The idea that an organized group can be dismantled by a set, or skill change just won't happen.

Get organized, or do not, that's the options.

Honestly I don't think it can be dismantled at all. What it could be is balanced out, and have its most toxic qualities reduced.

I think what frustrates people about organized, optimized groups in PVP is "farming," that is, long, stalemated, faction stacked fights against a seemingly unkillable ball group that seem to defy all attempts to introduce counterplay in the form of various silly "scales with number of targets" sets that easily and rapidly become weapons for those groups to use.

In essence I agree that set bonuses are not the solution, but I don't know that there is NO solution. I think some of the ideas about limiting cross-heals could have application. I also think things can be done mechanically (one example I gave was implementing harder cooldowns on respawn, but there are others) that reduce the appeal and viability of occupying a single objective for an extended period and having it be faction stacked.

xDeusEJRx

Fennwitty wrote: »

MAKE SIEGE ENGINES, NOT ARMOR SETS.

Literally zero risk to affecting IC or Battlegrounds or any random PvE cheese.

Ball groups are not very able to put down a siege weapon and shoot it since they're swarming around constantly.

Now I'm sure they'd find a way but it would be exceptionally awkward, and then others could siege down their sieges far easier than the ball group itself.

I don't think siege weapons would realistically stop them. Dwemer siege didn't change much and it's basically a better version of regular siege since it fires 4 shots in an area, but ball groups are still a problem.
If ZOS wanted to stop them I think the only reliable way is to nerf cross healing tbh, make it so you can't stack the same heals on yourself or make it so the healing is less effective. Otherwise I don't imagine ball groups will ever not be a problem

Fennwitty

The dwemer siege kind of shotgun and you can't really aim. And they simply do damage as normal.

If meatbag catapults were given "Plaguebreak" treatment, a few would significantly clear an area.

neferpitou73

divnyi wrote: »

I believe Enervating Aura hits will weaken ball groups harder than any other set existed before. 10% proc trigger is only sad part of this set, would be hard to combo.

We'll just stack damage shields. Not that it won't hurt but again something tells me it'll just end up making it easier to farm pugs.

If I'm being honest PB doesn't hurt us much either. We just stopped purging added more healers. In fact we just run it since it's a significantly more cost effective VD