Undeath not nerfed?

Hexys

Undeath passive from vampire provides way to much mitigation, I'm sad to see it's not nerfed in the PTS Patch notes. (and more defensive/healing mechanics in the game)

I remember with Greymoor, the recovery passive was removed from the vampire skill line with the following statement: 'We don't want players to be vampire just for the passives'.

Everyone is a vampire right now in PvP, for the undeath passive and strike from shadows... The only skill that is really utilized is mist form which is just a delaying death experience. (and Shimmering Frenzy in unique cases for ganking)

Damage VS Tank = Boring
Tank VS Damage = Boring
Tank VS Tank = Even more boring
Damage VS Damage = Fun

Vaneur

Succuby wrote: »

Nerf topic again ?

Nerf? Undeath passsive is too overpower, it even forces u to play as a vampire if u just want to survive in a pvp enviroment, as I said in another topic this passive and the heal recovery nerf hurts build diversity... some changes are needed, for example:

Just pick one:
> Nerf undeath passive
> Add an additional penalty for being a vampire

Just pick one:
> Takes health recovery back (but not like before, just adds a cap)
> Remove health recovery from the game and give us another kind of survival tool (not as strong as undeath)

VarisVaris

Please delete it from the game.
When you can instantly feel how you're having a much harder time surviving the second you drop from vamp stage 3 to stage 2 and therefore lose the undeath passive it's a clear indication that this passive is completely overtuned.

Also rework the red CP tree to not be a sustain/survivability tree as this asks for people to stack mitigation with no way for offense to compensate for that.

Back with the old system we had at least some mirrored offensive and defensive cp stars but now we have the blue cp tree with both offensive and defensive cp stars and the red cp tree with completely overtuned defensive stars.

Fastest way would be to simply remove the red cps that have been added after the CP 2.0 rework (Pain's refuge, relentlessness...)

Hexys

VarisVaris wrote: »

Please delete it from the game.
When you can instantly feel how you're having a much harder time surviving the second you drop from vamp stage 3 to stage 2 and therefore lose the undeath passive it's a clear indication that this passive is completely overtuned.

Also rework the red CP tree to not be a sustain/survivability tree as this asks for people to stack mitigation with no way for offense to compensate for that.

Back with the old system we had at least some mirrored offensive and defensive cp stars but now we have the blue cp tree with both offensive and defensive cp stars and the red cp tree with completely overtuned defensive stars.

Fastest way would be to simply remove the red cps that have been added after the CP 2.0 rework (Pain's refuge, relentlessness...)

Very true regarding the CP. Previously everyone had the same CP and it was in 'balance'. I would say that on average in the current CP system a player runs 2 offensive and 2 defensive CP's in the blue tree. But it does enable the option for 4 defensive CP's, which means you need to run 4 offensive's CP's to balance that out again. But by doing so, you are in a major disadvantage. ZOS should just remove defensive CP's from the blue tree completely and add them to the red one. So you have to choose between defense and sustain and not get both.

Einstein_

Hexys wrote: »

show previous quotes

VarisVaris wrote: »

Please delete it from the game.
When you can instantly feel how you're having a much harder time surviving the second you drop from vamp stage 3 to stage 2 and therefore lose the undeath passive it's a clear indication that this passive is completely overtuned.

Also rework the red CP tree to not be a sustain/survivability tree as this asks for people to stack mitigation with no way for offense to compensate for that.

Back with the old system we had at least some mirrored offensive and defensive cp stars but now we have the blue cp tree with both offensive and defensive cp stars and the red cp tree with completely overtuned defensive stars.

Fastest way would be to simply remove the red cps that have been added after the CP 2.0 rework (Pain's refuge, relentlessness...)

Very true regarding the CP. Previously everyone had the same CP and it was in 'balance'. I would say that on average in the current CP system a player runs 2 offensive and 2 defensive CP's in the blue tree. But it does enable the option for 4 defensive CP's, which means you need to run 4 offensive's CP's to balance that out again. But by doing so, you are in a major disadvantage. ZOS should just remove defensive CP's from the blue tree completely and add them to the red one. So you have to choose between defense and sustain and not get both.

100% agree with this and the main topic.

mmtaniac

Undeath gives too much for free, compared this to major protection from reveling flare, flare is more balanced because you lose slot for it.

GypsyKing22

With how OP magdks are, I feel like being a stage 3 vamp is more of a burden at high level right now.

Undeath is strong, but it is definitely not necessary to survive in pvp or do well in pvp. In a 1v1, vs non MagDKs, it is very strong, but not overwhelmingly so.

Ragnaroek93

Hexys wrote: »

Damage VS Tank = Boring
Tank VS Damage = Boring
Tank VS Tank = Even more boring
Damage VS Damage = Fun

Pretty much the reason why I always stop playing after a few weeks when I return to the game. Time to kill in this game is absolutely broken and you can't reliably kill good opponents in a reasonable amount of time unless you play really broken stuff (like draugr magdk). This goes far beyond undeath, the other issues I can think of are crosshealing, ironblood, lack of counters against block, dodge and healing and it will only get worse next patch with that new crit res set and more healing abilities because the hybrid changes affect healing way more than damage done (giving everybody more healing abilities has to be an out of season april fools joke tbh).

PvPing in ESO just becomes boring very fast and this is mainly because of the absurd time to kill and the amount of broken stuff in this game while 90% of the builds and classes don't have the tools to deal damage anymore (pretty much everything that isn't mdk, magplar or harmony necro). Time to kill has been consistantly too high since release that people seem to have forgotten that dieing in PvP is an intended mechanic in PvP. Might also help the performance if stuff dies faster.

GypsyKing22

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Hexys wrote: »

Damage VS Tank = Boring
Tank VS Damage = Boring
Tank VS Tank = Even more boring
Damage VS Damage = Fun

Pretty much the reason why I always stop playing after a few weeks when I return to the game. Time to kill in this game is absolutely broken and you can't reliably kill good opponents in a reasonable amount of time unless you play really broken stuff (like draugr magdk). This goes far beyond undeath, the other issues I can think of are crosshealing, ironblood, lack of counters against block, dodge and healing and it will only get worse next patch with that new crit res set and more healing abilities because the hybrid changes affect healing way more than damage done (giving everybody more healing abilities has to be an out of season april fools joke tbh).

PvPing in ESO just becomes boring very fast and this is mainly because of the absurd time to kill and the amount of broken stuff in this game while 90% of the builds and classes don't have the tools to deal damage anymore (pretty much everything that isn't mdk, magplar or harmony necro). Time to kill has been consistantly too high since release that people seem to have forgotten that dieing in PvP is an intended mechanic in PvP. Might also help the performance if stuff dies faster.

Pretty much this

In a 1v1 situation, time to kill is basically infinite unless you're running ultra broken *** like draugrkin force pulse or deadlands demolisher bash builds, it always comes down to whoever gets tired enough to stop paying attention to rebuffing/keeping heals up/etc.

In a group situation, cross healing basically makes any damage outside of ulti dumps useless. On the other hand, coordinated groups ulti dumping are going to kill you no matter what you run.

Its just very tough to balance for all scenarios, but with these changes, basically every single scenario just gets more imbalanced instead of balanced... lol

NerfSeige

GypsyKing22 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Hexys wrote: »

Damage VS Tank = Boring
Tank VS Damage = Boring
Tank VS Tank = Even more boring
Damage VS Damage = Fun

Pretty much the reason why I always stop playing after a few weeks when I return to the game. Time to kill in this game is absolutely broken and you can't reliably kill good opponents in a reasonable amount of time unless you play really broken stuff (like draugr magdk). This goes far beyond undeath, the other issues I can think of are crosshealing, ironblood, lack of counters against block, dodge and healing and it will only get worse next patch with that new crit res set and more healing abilities because the hybrid changes affect healing way more than damage done (giving everybody more healing abilities has to be an out of season april fools joke tbh).

PvPing in ESO just becomes boring very fast and this is mainly because of the absurd time to kill and the amount of broken stuff in this game while 90% of the builds and classes don't have the tools to deal damage anymore (pretty much everything that isn't mdk, magplar or harmony necro). Time to kill has been consistantly too high since release that people seem to have forgotten that dieing in PvP is an intended mechanic in PvP. Might also help the performance if stuff dies faster.

Pretty much this

In a 1v1 situation, time to kill is basically infinite unless you're running ultra broken *** like draugrkin force pulse or deadlands demolisher bash builds, it always comes down to whoever gets tired enough to stop paying attention to rebuffing/keeping heals up/etc.

In a group situation, cross healing basically makes any damage outside of ulti dumps useless. On the other hand, coordinated groups ulti dumping are going to kill you no matter what you run.

Its just very tough to balance for all scenarios, but with these changes, basically every single scenario just gets more imbalanced instead of balanced... lol

Lmao, yeah, healing and mit is busted. First person to cramp up loses the duel lmao

GypsyKing22

NerfSeige wrote: »

show previous quotes

GypsyKing22 wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

Hexys wrote: »

Damage VS Tank = Boring
Tank VS Damage = Boring
Tank VS Tank = Even more boring
Damage VS Damage = Fun

Pretty much the reason why I always stop playing after a few weeks when I return to the game. Time to kill in this game is absolutely broken and you can't reliably kill good opponents in a reasonable amount of time unless you play really broken stuff (like draugr magdk). This goes far beyond undeath, the other issues I can think of are crosshealing, ironblood, lack of counters against block, dodge and healing and it will only get worse next patch with that new crit res set and more healing abilities because the hybrid changes affect healing way more than damage done (giving everybody more healing abilities has to be an out of season april fools joke tbh).

PvPing in ESO just becomes boring very fast and this is mainly because of the absurd time to kill and the amount of broken stuff in this game while 90% of the builds and classes don't have the tools to deal damage anymore (pretty much everything that isn't mdk, magplar or harmony necro). Time to kill has been consistantly too high since release that people seem to have forgotten that dieing in PvP is an intended mechanic in PvP. Might also help the performance if stuff dies faster.

Pretty much this

In a 1v1 situation, time to kill is basically infinite unless you're running ultra broken *** like draugrkin force pulse or deadlands demolisher bash builds, it always comes down to whoever gets tired enough to stop paying attention to rebuffing/keeping heals up/etc.

In a group situation, cross healing basically makes any damage outside of ulti dumps useless. On the other hand, coordinated groups ulti dumping are going to kill you no matter what you run.

Its just very tough to balance for all scenarios, but with these changes, basically every single scenario just gets more imbalanced instead of balanced... lol

Lmao, yeah, healing and mit is busted. First person to cramp up loses the duel lmao

Healing tooltips are generally higher than damage tooltips

In addition to that, damage has to go through resistances, whereas healing doesn't. Doesn't take a maths genius to see why this is an issue

If they made it so that healing in PvP somehow has a 'reverse' scaling with your resists (so the more resists you have, the less healing you take), that would solve a lot of these issues.

Hexys

While this topic is showing a more generic problem then just the undeath passive (thanks everyone for commenting with constructive feedback) I would also like to add that Health pools are way to high. More than half the players are easily able to get over 30k Health (even with 0 attributes in Health). This amount of HP make burst damage worth way less, while the healing and mitigation take care of pressure.

All these things don't help with player mentality either. In general I feel players don't spec to kill anymore, but rather to survive. Not so much fun in my opinion but understandable.

Why would you spec for damage if the enemy isn't killable anyway, might as well playing a tank yourself and stalemate...

katorga

You solve healing by making it scale ONLY on max mag/stam, and making damage scale ONLY on spell/wep damage. Just like proc sets.

% mitigation is too common now. Major/Minor protection + Undeath is all you need, imo. Major/Minor should be unnerfed and go back to higher values, and made way more rare. % mitigation in red tree should be removed or replaced. % mitigation in blue is fine as it is directly countered by % damage stars and completes with them for slots.

GoodFella146

Nerf werewolf first

divnyi

I have a better naming for this thread:

Health recovery not buffed?

xylena_lazarow

Agreeing that the health regen nerf made Undeath way too "free" ...it was already very low opportunity cost given the low frequency of fire damage and Dawnbreaker (lol cast time) in the PvP meta, and the sustain debuff can be offset by a single jewelry glyph on most builds, if it's even needed at all.

Vevvev

divnyi wrote: »

I have a better naming for this thread:

Health recovery not buffed?

^ This

The fact Undeath is so good is because the HP recovery nerf effectively removed half of the weaknesses you had to get to receive Undeath. Instead of losing 60% of your HP recovery you only lose 30% relatively speaking compared to everyone else due to the 50% nerf.

If you nerfed Undeath you'd make pure vampire builds actually using the health cost abilities unplayable in the few pieces of content you can actually pull them off in.

VarisVaris

Vevvev wrote: »

show previous quotes

divnyi wrote: »

I have a better naming for this thread:

Health recovery not buffed?

^ This

The fact Undeath is so good is because the HP recovery nerf effectively removed half of the weaknesses you had to get to receive Undeath. Instead of losing 60% of your HP recovery you only lose 30% relatively speaking compared to everyone else due to the 50% nerf.

If you nerfed Undeath you'd make pure vampire builds actually using the health cost abilities unplayable in the few pieces of content you can actually pull them off in.

No Undeath was just as broken when HP regen was overperforming.

Urzigurumash

Here are some ideas, probably not original:

- Change Undeath to "Reduce Damage by up to X% for each Vampire ability slotted"

- Subject Undeath to 50% reduction in Battlespirit (and then buff Unnatural Movement or something)

- Remove the extra damage taken from Flame and Fighter's Guild Damage

I run Stage 4 on all classes, use Molten Whip on StamDK, so the above changes would nerf me too.

That last one should definitely happen in lieu of any other changes, both Flame Damage and Dawnbreaker are overperforming because everybody is a Vampire. If Vampires in ESO are Scion of Lamae and not Scion of Bol, and Lamae conspires with Meridia against Bol and thus Vampires can use Dawnbreaker, why does it do extra damage to Vampires?

TX12001rwb17_ESO

How about no, Vampires need buffs not nerfs.

StarOfElyon

Hexys wrote: »

Undeath passive from vampire provides way to much mitigation, I'm sad to see it's not nerfed in the PTS Patch notes. (and more defensive/healing mechanics in the game)

I remember with Greymoor, the recovery passive was removed from the vampire skill line with the following statement: 'We don't want players to be vampire just for the passives'.

Everyone is a vampire right now in PvP, for the undeath passive and strike from shadows... The only skill that is really utilized is mist form which is just a delaying death experience. (and Shimmering Frenzy in unique cases for ganking)

Damage VS Tank = Boring
Tank VS Damage = Boring
Tank VS Tank = Even more boring
Damage VS Damage = Fun

Errbody but me. #NoUndeathSquad

Seriously though, the saddest thing about vamp skill line is that's it's basically custom made buffs for the nightblade class and that other classes are only vamp for undeath

olsborg

Hexys wrote: »

Why would you spec for damage if the enemy isn't killable anyway, might as well playing a tank yourself and stalemate...

Yea this is a big issue in pvp these days, and many days before(basicly last few years). If a tanky build rly cant die in smallscale pvp, why spec for dmg if you cant kill the other tanky players anyway (unless theres discord and calling ulties).

If said tanky players fight vs squishy players who has dmg, the tanky player will basicly deal just as much dmg to them, but the tanky player will have the upperhand because he cant rly be bursted, the squishy players with high dmg builds can.

So thats the essence of pvp imo. Problematic and boring.

Also I cant believe they didnt nerf magplar bubble and corrosive and undeath passive for update 33. Insane.

Urzigurumash

olsborg wrote: »

Also I cant believe they didnt nerf magplar bubble and corrosive and undeath passive for update 33. Insane.

MagDKs would switch to Eye of Flame or Vamp Ult with little reduction in efficacy while StamDKs would end up running only Dawnbreaker and Spell Wall (in IC and BGs), doing more to ruin StamDK's class identity than anything before, especially next patch when StamDK can get 13% more damage in PvP by switching from Poison morphs to Flame morphs. If Corrosive is to be changed revert it to its pre 2018 form or whatever, Stam only but DoTs too.

Anyhow, does anybody disagree that any one of my suggested changes would reduce the imbalance caused by Undeath in PvP, while not nerfing dedicated Vampire builds, and having little impact on PvE?

Urzigurumash

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

How about no, Vampires need buffs not nerfs.

Whether you mean in PvE or you mean actual Vampire-skill using builds in PvP, I don't disagree, probably nobody here disagrees.

The issue is everybody ( except my frequent teammate @StarOfElyon ) is a Vampire in PvP because of Undeath, and only because of Undeath, and the effects of this ripple throughout the PvP ecosystem. It limits build diversity and player freedom and reduces any thematic impact of Vampirism in PvP.

StarOfElyon

Urzigurumash wrote: »

show previous quotes

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

How about no, Vampires need buffs not nerfs.

Whether you mean in PvE or you mean actual Vampire-skill using builds in PvP, I don't disagree, probably nobody here disagrees.

The issue is everybody ( except my frequent teammate @StarOfElyon ) is a Vampire in PvP because of Undeath, and only because of Undeath, and the effects of this ripple throughout the PvP ecosystem. It limits build diversity and player freedom and reduces any thematic impact of Vampirism in PvP.

I know. I feel the pressure to join them. I play vamp at stage 1 just for the RP of it.

Urzigurumash

StarOfElyon wrote: »

show previous quotes

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

How about no, Vampires need buffs not nerfs.

Whether you mean in PvE or you mean actual Vampire-skill using builds in PvP, I don't disagree, probably nobody here disagrees.

The issue is everybody ( except my frequent teammate @StarOfElyon ) is a Vampire in PvP because of Undeath, and only because of Undeath, and the effects of this ripple throughout the PvP ecosystem. It limits build diversity and player freedom and reduces any thematic impact of Vampirism in PvP.

I know. I feel the pressure to join them

I commend thee for trying. Like @VarisVaris said it's a palpable change in survivability the second I drop from Stage 3 to Stage 2.

Vevvev

If Undeath is to get a nerf a revert back to how it once was would be better. Change when the passive starts scaling to the original 50% HP, although I personally would rather if a nerf was to arrive like to see it start scaling around 80 or 60%.

ExistingRug61

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Here are some ideas, probably not original:

- Change Undeath to "Reduce Damage by up to X% for each Vampire ability slotted"

- Subject Undeath to 50% reduction in Battlespirit (and then buff Unnatural Movement or something)

- Remove the extra damage taken from Flame and Fighter's Guild Damage

I run Stage 4 on all classes, use Molten Whip on StamDK, so the above changes would nerf me too.

That last one should definitely happen in lieu of any other changes, both Flame Damage and Dawnbreaker are overperforming because everybody is a Vampire. If Vampires in ESO are Scion of Lamae and not Scion of Bol, and Lamae conspires with Meridia against Bol and thus Vampires can use Dawnbreaker, why does it do extra damage to Vampires?

Another alternative: Instead of the passive reducing health recovery, change it to reducing healing from other players (percentages could change if required).
This would be more meaningful if you are just getting vamp for passives, but wouldn't matter if you are actually using the vamp spammable skill as you can't be healed anyway (so would actually buff these players as they get their health regen back).

TX12001rwb17_ESO

How about no, Vampires need buffs not nerfs.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

show previous quotes

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

How about no, Vampires need buffs not nerfs.

Whether you mean in PvE or you mean actual Vampire-skill using builds in PvP, I don't disagree, probably nobody here disagrees.

The issue is everybody ( except my frequent teammate @StarOfElyon ) is a Vampire in PvP because of Undeath, and only because of Undeath, and the effects of this ripple throughout the PvP ecosystem. It limits build diversity and player freedom and reduces any thematic impact of Vampirism in PvP.

So you want to Nerf Vampires because of PvP which is barley 5% of the games content, what about the other 95%?

When Undeath Kicks in Vampires have...

- 13% weakness to Fire
- 60% reduced Health regeneration
- 8% increased ability costs
- Weakness to Fighter's Guild abilities

Undeath is VERY Balanced given the weaknesses Vampires need to put up with.

Urzigurumash

ExistingRug61 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Here are some ideas, probably not original:

- Change Undeath to "Reduce Damage by up to X% for each Vampire ability slotted"

- Subject Undeath to 50% reduction in Battlespirit (and then buff Unnatural Movement or something)

- Remove the extra damage taken from Flame and Fighter's Guild Damage

I run Stage 4 on all classes, use Molten Whip on StamDK, so the above changes would nerf me too.

That last one should definitely happen in lieu of any other changes, both Flame Damage and Dawnbreaker are overperforming because everybody is a Vampire. If Vampires in ESO are Scion of Lamae and not Scion of Bol, and Lamae conspires with Meridia against Bol and thus Vampires can use Dawnbreaker, why does it do extra damage to Vampires?

Another alternative: Instead of the passive reducing health recovery, change it to reducing healing from other players (percentages could change if required).
This would be more meaningful if you are just getting vamp for passives, but wouldn't matter if you are actually using the vamp spammable skill as you can't be healed anyway (so would actually buff these players as they get their health regen back).

That would probably work, even having Vampires take damage from Healing as in some other games could work, but I have no idea whether this might be unnecessary in PvE and harmful there to build diversity and player freedom. The best solution probably doesn't impact PvE at all.

Again, nobody wants Undeath nerfed so that Vampire is bad, in PvP or PvE, we simply want players to be able to make build choices for themselves, not have a universal choice made for all on account of the math - and also for MagDK to not be thrown back to the bottom tier after so many years of wallowing there, when if Undeath were nerfed the class would become much better balanced in PvP overnight (by way of reducing the number of players subject to the increased Flame damage). Not even the Fighter's, Mage's, or Psijiic Guilds are required in PvP, all of their best buffs can be sourced elsewhere, unlike Vampire.

To me, the solitary, high speed, high damage archetype makes sense for Vampire. I can see the idea of a Vampire tank but to me that should be like a Mummy or something. We have a Mummy outfit, a Mummy Pet, and a Mummy horse, let's get a Mummy sub-class.

Hexys

Urzigurumash wrote: »

show previous quotes

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

How about no, Vampires need buffs not nerfs.

Whether you mean in PvE or you mean actual Vampire-skill using builds in PvP, I don't disagree, probably nobody here disagrees.

The issue is everybody ( except my frequent teammate @StarOfElyon ) is a Vampire in PvP because of Undeath, and only because of Undeath, and the effects of this ripple throughout the PvP ecosystem. It limits build diversity and player freedom and reduces any thematic impact of Vampirism in PvP.

Totally agree with this one. Vampire skill-line need a buff on it's skills. I would love to see a return of the old vampire drain with an undodgeable stun and something impactful for the stupefy skill. You should want to be a vampire to use the skills effectively, not to gain a over tuned passive to not die.