Update 33 Combat Preview

VarisVaris

Seraphayel wrote: »

Araxyte wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

In Update 33, the changes are focused on making almost every player ability in the game scale dynamically with your highest offensive stats when applicable.

Probably unpopular opinion but here goes. Seeing a big stamina orc using magic skills and wielding a staff... c'mon. I feel like the whole combat system, which has hugely contributed to the success of the game, is just being completely torn down and re-built to the point where class, race and sets don't matter anymore. I can also imagine this making PvP even more unstable. I miss the days of needing to make a new character and class to be able to fit into a specific play style. Did we really ask for something this extreme?

This isn’t extreme. It’s the core of Elder Scrolls. The issue is, that ESO is a multiplayer game and therefore classes need to be balanced and competitive.

It’s still the quintessence of ESO to be able to mix and match playstyles and make them work - this helps and is by no means a bad change. It just doubles the options for each spec when you can all of a sudden use Magicka abilities as Stamina and Stamina abilities as Magicka.

It might double the options on paper in practice it will result in completely removing specs from the game, we're going down from 12 specs to 6 classes which will have 1 single Bis build and that's it for the diversity this creates.

Seraphayel

VarisVaris wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Araxyte wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

In Update 33, the changes are focused on making almost every player ability in the game scale dynamically with your highest offensive stats when applicable.

Probably unpopular opinion but here goes. Seeing a big stamina orc using magic skills and wielding a staff... c'mon. I feel like the whole combat system, which has hugely contributed to the success of the game, is just being completely torn down and re-built to the point where class, race and sets don't matter anymore. I can also imagine this making PvP even more unstable. I miss the days of needing to make a new character and class to be able to fit into a specific play style. Did we really ask for something this extreme?

This isn’t extreme. It’s the core of Elder Scrolls. The issue is, that ESO is a multiplayer game and therefore classes need to be balanced and competitive.

It’s still the quintessence of ESO to be able to mix and match playstyles and make them work - this helps and is by no means a bad change. It just doubles the options for each spec when you can all of a sudden use Magicka abilities as Stamina and Stamina abilities as Magicka.

It might double the options on paper in practice it will result in completely removing specs from the game, we're going down from 12 specs to 6 classes which will have 1 single Bis build and that's it for the diversity this creates.

Only when you're a meta chaser and want always to play the top parsing build. But nothing what ZOS would do would change this mindset anyway. All players who do not chase the meta have a lot more options.

If you have this meta mindset and surround yourself with people that do have this mindset, you may lose due to this change. I'd say the overwhelming majority of players does win.

VarisVaris

Seraphayel wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Araxyte wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

In Update 33, the changes are focused on making almost every player ability in the game scale dynamically with your highest offensive stats when applicable.

Probably unpopular opinion but here goes. Seeing a big stamina orc using magic skills and wielding a staff... c'mon. I feel like the whole combat system, which has hugely contributed to the success of the game, is just being completely torn down and re-built to the point where class, race and sets don't matter anymore. I can also imagine this making PvP even more unstable. I miss the days of needing to make a new character and class to be able to fit into a specific play style. Did we really ask for something this extreme?

This isn’t extreme. It’s the core of Elder Scrolls. The issue is, that ESO is a multiplayer game and therefore classes need to be balanced and competitive.

It’s still the quintessence of ESO to be able to mix and match playstyles and make them work - this helps and is by no means a bad change. It just doubles the options for each spec when you can all of a sudden use Magicka abilities as Stamina and Stamina abilities as Magicka.

It might double the options on paper in practice it will result in completely removing specs from the game, we're going down from 12 specs to 6 classes which will have 1 single Bis build and that's it for the diversity this creates.

Only when you're a meta chaser and want always to play the top parsing build. But nothing what ZOS would do would change this mindset anyway. All players who do not chase the meta have a lot more options.

If you have this meta mindset and surround yourself with people that do have this mindset, you may lose due to this change. I'd say the overwhelming majority of players does win.

Oh it will be amazing for people who like to play PvP because they will have so many options to be ridiculously outclassed by the Bis build and skill setup for each class because they can now spam hardcast frags and snipe on the same build.

It will also be amazing for the prizes for materials because people now only need a single build for a class rather than having 2 different builds for the mag and stam version.

Seraphayel

VarisVaris wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Araxyte wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

In Update 33, the changes are focused on making almost every player ability in the game scale dynamically with your highest offensive stats when applicable.

Probably unpopular opinion but here goes. Seeing a big stamina orc using magic skills and wielding a staff... c'mon. I feel like the whole combat system, which has hugely contributed to the success of the game, is just being completely torn down and re-built to the point where class, race and sets don't matter anymore. I can also imagine this making PvP even more unstable. I miss the days of needing to make a new character and class to be able to fit into a specific play style. Did we really ask for something this extreme?

This isn’t extreme. It’s the core of Elder Scrolls. The issue is, that ESO is a multiplayer game and therefore classes need to be balanced and competitive.

It’s still the quintessence of ESO to be able to mix and match playstyles and make them work - this helps and is by no means a bad change. It just doubles the options for each spec when you can all of a sudden use Magicka abilities as Stamina and Stamina abilities as Magicka.

It might double the options on paper in practice it will result in completely removing specs from the game, we're going down from 12 specs to 6 classes which will have 1 single Bis build and that's it for the diversity this creates.

Only when you're a meta chaser and want always to play the top parsing build. But nothing what ZOS would do would change this mindset anyway. All players who do not chase the meta have a lot more options.

If you have this meta mindset and surround yourself with people that do have this mindset, you may lose due to this change. I'd say the overwhelming majority of players does win.

Oh it will be amazing for people who like to play PvP because they will have so many options to be ridiculously outclassed by the Bis build and skill setup for each class because they can now spam hardcast frags and snipe on the same build.

It will also be amazing for the prizes for materials because people now only need a single build for a class rather than having 2 different builds for the mag and stam version.

Again, as I said, if you are trapped in this mindset, there is nothing, really nothing ZOS could ever do to make you happy. There will always be one BiS build. Always. It seems like you're only concerned with playing the best build, so I really don't know why this change even impacts you. You already limit yourself now, the change won't limit you more.

Faulgor

Araxyte wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

In Update 33, the changes are focused on making almost every player ability in the game scale dynamically with your highest offensive stats when applicable.

Probably unpopular opinion but here goes. Seeing a big stamina orc using magic skills and wielding a staff... c'mon. I feel like the whole combat system, which has hugely contributed to the success of the game, is just being completely torn down and re-built to the point where class, race and sets don't matter anymore. I can also imagine this making PvP even more unstable. I miss the days of needing to make a new character and class to be able to fit into a specific play style. Did we really ask for something this extreme?

Well, staffs used to be melee weapons in TES3. I'm already hard at work looking for a "stamina" build with a staff front bar, but there aren't that many workable spammables.
Besides, how do you know it's a "stamina" Orc? It's just an Orc!

EF321

Araxyte wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

In Update 33, the changes are focused on making almost every player ability in the game scale dynamically with your highest offensive stats when applicable.

Probably unpopular opinion but here goes. Seeing a big stamina orc using magic skills and wielding a staff... c'mon. I feel like the whole combat system, which has hugely contributed to the success of the game, is just being completely torn down and re-built to the point where class, race and sets don't matter anymore. I can also imagine this making PvP even more unstable. I miss the days of needing to make a new character and class to be able to fit into a specific play style. Did we really ask for something this extreme?

Orc shaman?

VarisVaris

Seraphayel wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Araxyte wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

In Update 33, the changes are focused on making almost every player ability in the game scale dynamically with your highest offensive stats when applicable.

Probably unpopular opinion but here goes. Seeing a big stamina orc using magic skills and wielding a staff... c'mon. I feel like the whole combat system, which has hugely contributed to the success of the game, is just being completely torn down and re-built to the point where class, race and sets don't matter anymore. I can also imagine this making PvP even more unstable. I miss the days of needing to make a new character and class to be able to fit into a specific play style. Did we really ask for something this extreme?

This isn’t extreme. It’s the core of Elder Scrolls. The issue is, that ESO is a multiplayer game and therefore classes need to be balanced and competitive.

It’s still the quintessence of ESO to be able to mix and match playstyles and make them work - this helps and is by no means a bad change. It just doubles the options for each spec when you can all of a sudden use Magicka abilities as Stamina and Stamina abilities as Magicka.

It might double the options on paper in practice it will result in completely removing specs from the game, we're going down from 12 specs to 6 classes which will have 1 single Bis build and that's it for the diversity this creates.

Only when you're a meta chaser and want always to play the top parsing build. But nothing what ZOS would do would change this mindset anyway. All players who do not chase the meta have a lot more options.

If you have this meta mindset and surround yourself with people that do have this mindset, you may lose due to this change. I'd say the overwhelming majority of players does win.

Oh it will be amazing for people who like to play PvP because they will have so many options to be ridiculously outclassed by the Bis build and skill setup for each class because they can now spam hardcast frags and snipe on the same build.

It will also be amazing for the prizes for materials because people now only need a single build for a class rather than having 2 different builds for the mag and stam version.

Again, as I said, if you are trapped in this mindset, there is nothing, really nothing ZOS could ever do to make you happy. There will always be one BiS build. Always. It seems like you're only concerned with playing the best build, so I really don't know why this change even impacts you. You already limit yourself now, the change won't limit you more.

This is simply wrong, right now there are 12 different specs with different viability and also some variety in which skills they use due to general limitations in their class toolkit which results in more skills being considered to be slot worthy.

With next patch the option for skills to put on your bar might increase but this also means in return that competition for bar slots becomes so stiff that only the 10 most viable skills will find their way onto bars and that will inevitably reduce diversity across the board.
Additionally whole specs will be completely gone.
Magnb will be gone in pvp because is will be 100% inferior to stamnb after the changes.
Magden will be even more useless because stamden will simply take it's last remaining spot as being somewhat decent as a healer in smallscale.
The other classes will also simply use the most powerful morphs they have access to creating more morphs and skills that no one will ever use, this change brings us back to times that we hoped would never return, where countless skills and morphs were useless or outclassed so hard that they'd never find their way onto a bar outside of some roleplayer who thinks the skill looks cool.

But those people shouldn't be taken into consideration when doing balance changes because they don't care about balance and aren't affected by it, the mudcrab in stonefalls also dies to an unarmed khajiit with no armor and 32 points into mag/stam each.

francesinhalover

TempestM wrote: »

In moments like this it's extremely painful that his forum doesn't have dislike reaction

What are you doing is not hybridization! It's homogenization! Everything will be played in the same way and choices won't matter when everything just scales from the highest stat. Next stamina and magicka will be merged into one stat?
Please, stop pushing in this direction, it's killing any variety

In the long term, we plan on simply merging these bonuses so there are fewer names and effects you need to worry about

I'm very rarely in the "devs are dumbing down the game" crowd but this is literally what it is! "Just pick whatever you want and don't worry about it, choices do not matter"

The vast majority is happy with this. In a way its like giving people more skilllines
Skills still cost stam and mag.
There are still sets that buff dmg types like decease.
Hell even cp buffs stam or mag dmg on the zone were you get pen.

francesinhalover

StShoot wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

This is the worst thing that could have ever happened to Eso's combat system.

I can't think of anything that would create more balance issues than this change of making all skills scale with your highest resources.

This will blow survivability through the roof with everyone being able to run Vigor.

Vigor is still going to cost stamina.

Speaking of when I regularly ran as a MagDK healer with my Raid, stamina management was a big limiting factor. I could use Vigor in a pinch or even sometimes as part of a rotation, but it was always balanced against the need to keep enough stamina to block, dodge, sprint, and roll out of those Negates ASAP.

I think that cost will still be a factor here, like they said: "With this, we want to retain the identity of many playstyles by reinforcing ability cost as a limiting factor in how frequently you can engage with abilities,"

It might be a problem that my occasional Vigor can heal my teammates for more now, but this change won't let me cast more Vigors without running myself out of Stamina.

Yeah but thats only the case for magica specs. Staminas on the otherhand will have a blast with this change, because their off resource is not limited by dodging, blocking and sprinting.

Stams are also close range and get slapped by aoe and dmg left and right while mags attack from range.

francesinhalover

Carbohydrate wrote: »

ZOS_Gilliam wrote: »

This means any ability that used to scale exclusively with Spell Damage and Max Magicka will now dynamically scale with Weapon Damage and Max Stamina, and vice versa. With this, we want to retain the identity of many playstyles by reinforcing ability cost as a limiting factor in how frequently you can engage with abilities, but with less concern as to how powerful that ability is based on what stat path you’ve chosen.

Won't all this do the opposite of retaining playstyle identity? Seems like it'll just make more obvious skill morph choices for class abilities across mag and stam players, and we'll see more of the same abilities outside of class ones on everyone's bars (caltrops, orb, rune, etc)

I mean that already happens.
What this does is make stam classes and mag classes have more diversity.
Mags can now use lightweight trap for crit dmg , stam sorce, warden , templar will be able to use and pick up several skills like dots.

There Is A Reason Why Most Against This Are Mag Players from what i see. Mag has access to several morphs. They are scared mag skills will get nerfed because of the stam players that really need them.

francesinhalover

Seraphayel wrote: »

Does this mean we can effectively use Staves as Stamina players and Bows as Magicka players and still be competitive and deal the same damage?

Yes!!!! Is like we just got several new skill lines! Hypeee
Its amazing this year

francesinhalover

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

ZiggyTStardust wrote: »

This might make some people really tanky in pvp, since you can now use powerful heals like vigor and intensive mender (and rapid regeneration) on one character

In general I'm concerned about this forcing everybody into builds that cherry-pick the best skills.

Ditto self-healing or anything else.

Thats already the case though. Now people have several best builds and not just one.

Especialy stams.

francesinhalover

EF321 wrote: »

YES. I like that.
Stamsorc proc'ing frags with streak and dark deal. And fury usable!

Cant wait!!!!!!

tomfant

My crystal ball tells me that in update 34 or 35 we will have one resource for casting abilities (former magicka) and the other for movement and defense ie sprint, block, bash etc (former stamina). Buffs and debuffs will be united, eg weapon and spell power will unit into offensive power.

francesinhalover

ZiggyTStardust wrote: »

This might make some people really tanky in pvp, since you can now use powerful heals like vigor and intensive mender (and rapid regeneration) on one character

They still cost mag or stam.
Most stam players can only use 3 mag abilities in a row

Irfind

Last update they changed Twisting Path to scale from max stats, i use it on my bow build and i like it, good damage and speedbuff.

Maybe i get finally a range 20% damage buff from the mage guild (Degeneration) for my bow/bow build (no more flasks and no more 2h backbar)

Im hyped for this changes

francesinhalover

HeroOfNone wrote: »

A few open ended questions this brings up:

With the hybridization going off the higher stat, are we going to eventually see a combination of stats to make weapon/spell damage into a simple "power" stat, to simplify things for users?

If the above is true, will we see additional stat consolidation for things like penetration and critical? Armor sets already seem to combine both, so I don't see a reason not to combine those too.

Given how stamina is used for blocking (except when equipped with an ice staff) and dodging, doesn't this put many stamina abilities at a disadvantage? Magicka abilities already have a huge bias for healers and with being a liability at melee range for major boss fights. I worry this skews the bias more unless there are more ways to swap block/dodge to use magicka and more stamina ranged abilities

With several of these changes, think we will see a revision of a lot of armor sets over the next year to be more unique? many have been marginalized even before this consolidation, and hold less value with no reason to use them.

And given all of the above, how many others think this is making way to add in new stats to better help with balance? ZOS won't discuss it till it gets there, but I won't be surprised to see a new healing, debuff duration, or DOT strength stat once this is all over. Just gotta clean up and remove some of the existing stuff we have.

Stam and mag still exists they simply have access to more skills.
A stam for dps can use 2 mag dots... Maybe 3 maybe if they dont run out of magicka.
So no, making spell dmg/wep dmg mixed together isnt the idea here.

They might crit/spell crit major brut/major sorcery those are buffs. Dw shrouded will now also give major sorcery. Could be useful for mags that use dw.
Mags have used trap beast on builds now trap does more damage for them.
Mags with dw can use deadly cloak that gives them aoe dmg reduction on rotations.

francesinhalover

joseayalac wrote: »

Then nerf Vigor please! It was implemented just because stam characters where falling behind in heals, but makes no sense thematically.

Why? Stams can only use 3 maybe mag abilities in a row.
Am i supposed to use mag heals so my mag bar disappears? Max ill do is use a duration shield or heal

francesinhalover

Iron_Warrior wrote: »

Now people are going to play the same way even more. Who comes up with this ideas?

I want to go back. Eso classic when ?

People already play the same way what are you on about?
At least now you can use 2 or 3 stam skills before your resource bar for stam disappears.

Seraphayel

tomfant wrote: »

My crystal ball tells me that in update 34 or 35 we will have one resource for casting abilities (former magicka) and the other for movement and defense ie sprint, block, bash etc (former stamina). Buffs and debuffs will be united, eg weapon and spell power will unit into offensive power.

Honestly, that’s not too bad. As long as things like Bash, Sprint and Roll require Stamina and not another resource that’s neither Magicka nor Stamina, this system was sooner or later about to fail because it unfairly favorites always one of them.

francesinhalover

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

Well... I don't want to lose my optimism, but there are some things that worry me. In today's realities, in PvE everyone will be forced to use the inferno maelstrom staff. Yes, I understand that more free gameplay is good. But now, instead of playing mages / wars that we understand, we will be forced to make some kind of mutants from our characters without a clear identification in pursuit of the meta. And it is possible that this will destroy our identification as magclass or stamclass and be just a class. It scares me.
I hope these changes will be similar to the armor passive changes. They were good, but did not change anything cardinally. However, weapons and skills are a completely different matter.

Abilities still cost mag or stam you cant spam them.
This helps hybrid builds but even hybrid are more focused in one of the 2 resources.
Destro if used on stam is to apply one or two dots aka backbar.
Mags already use front bar dw... Have been since vma came out

francesinhalover

Wyrd88 wrote: »

What is the point of having separate weapon or spell dmg stat then? Just make one called "power".
What is the point of having two different resource pools and invest and manage them separately? Just make on generic "resource pool".
Class identity? Spec diversity? Never heard of it, lol.

Tbh wouldnt mind this. Stam would be for dodge, block and running. Mag for everything else.
The issue is how light and medium armor would work

francesinhalover

Vevvev wrote: »

Great, my worst fear.... The werewolf magicka build that simply won't die and hit hard to is now making it's appearance.

I mean if the mag has the stam to be able to spam werewolf skills

francesinhalover

kookster wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

Some broken combinations that people have mentioned in the first 10 seconds after they heard about this change:

Magdk with Master's DW.
Magplar with vigor (on top of that absolutely unnecessary buff to javalin).
Stamnecro with intensive mender and resistant flesh.
Stamdk with Coagulating.
Stamnb with healthy offering and merciless resolve.

What the result of this change will be pvp is that there will be no longer mag or stam specs for each class but there will be one single skill set for each class and that's it, maybe we see some variance in which of the broken sets are being used but there will be absolutely no variety in which skills are being used.

A lot of classes will get something that can make them even stronger.. but then theirs mag sorc and how theres literally nothing from the stam side that would make it stronger.. just kind of pointing out how bad of a place stam sorc is in vs magsorc.

Maybe I'm not thinking of something, if anyone can feel free to reply.

No friend you are 100% right.
Crystal weapons seems to be the only one.
Mags can stealth and use it for some beginning burst, but thats it

francesinhalover

VaranisArano wrote: »

Seraphayel wrote: »

Does this mean we can effectively use Staves as Stamina players and Bows as Magicka players and still be competitive and deal the same damage?

"With this, we want to retain the identity of many playstyles by reinforcing ability cost as a limiting factor in how frequently you can engage with abilities, but with less concern as to how powerful that ability is based on what stat path you’ve chosen."


As I understand it, a staff-wielding Stam player will deal the same damage, but the skills still costs magicka.

If all you want to do is cast Elemental Blockade every cycle through your rotation, it should be fine. If you were hoping to use Force Pulse as your spammable, you'll chew through your limited magicka pretty quickly.

Same for a Magicka player - the occasional Endless Hail and Caltrops for extra damage over time isn't going to break the bank, but you probably won't have the stamina sustain for a full bow/bow build.

Does that make sense?

Finally someone amazing that gets it. Stams can only use like 3 force pulse before having zero mag vice versa

francesinhalover

Noerra wrote: »

I'm both excited for this and terrified that we will create some monster Meta Balance issues xD

Overall excited though of course... really interesting.... So Power/Reverb Bash from SnB skill line will scale off resists? Bash Builds going to love that.

Also - In pvp it's going to be very hard to kill anyone now that they have access to both Vigor and Regen O_O

I mean if everything is op, we just gotta trim the slightly best op

francesinhalover

StShoot wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

VarisVaris wrote: »

This is the worst thing that could have ever happened to Eso's combat system.

I can't think of anything that would create more balance issues than this change of making all skills scale with your highest resources.

This will blow survivability through the roof with everyone being able to run Vigor.

Vigor is still going to cost stamina.

Speaking of when I regularly ran as a MagDK healer with my Raid, stamina management was a big limiting factor. I could use Vigor in a pinch or even sometimes as part of a rotation, but it was always balanced against the need to keep enough stamina to block, dodge, sprint, and roll out of those Negates ASAP.

I think that cost will still be a factor here, like they said: "With this, we want to retain the identity of many playstyles by reinforcing ability cost as a limiting factor in how frequently you can engage with abilities,"

It might be a problem that my occasional Vigor can heal my teammates for more now, but this change won't let me cast more Vigors without running myself out of Stamina.

Yeah but thats only the case for magica specs. Staminas on the otherhand will have a blast with this change, because their off resource is not limited by dodging, blocking and sprinting.

Yes but in a rotation mag can now have dw backbar use deadly cloak arena set and rending(same for vma bow backbar) and swap to main bar and do dps.

What you said is bad for pvp only something the minority of players care about.

emilyhyoyeon

VarisVaris wrote: »

But those people shouldn't be taken into consideration when doing balance changes because they don't care about balance and aren't affected by it, the mudcrab in stonefalls also dies to an unarmed khajiit with no armor and 32 points into mag/stam each.

that's what confuses me about all this

sonwon.1_ESO

robpr wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Since weaving is allowed with light attacks shouldn't weaving also work with heavy attacks?

You already can that, pressing a skill during charging heavy will queue the skill fire right after GCD ends cancelling rest of the heavy animation

Not the same since in the same time frame for a heavy attack you can only do one heavy attack and one skill where with light attacks you can do on the average 2.5 skills with 2.5 light attacks within the same time as one heavy attack.

sonwon.1_ESO

axi wrote: »

sonwon.1_ESO wrote: »

Since weaving is allowed with light attacks shouldn't weaving also work with heavy attacks?

What do You mean? You already can weave skills inbetween heavy attacks.

Not the same since in the same time frame for a heavy attack you can only do one heavy attack and one skill where with light attacks you can do on the average 2.5 skills with 2.5 light attacks within the same time as one heavy attack.