A Interesting Concept That New World and other games implemented, Would it work for ESO?

mickeyx

NagualV wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Also, New World is not a great game to use as an example since it is has become an abject failure losing 85% of their players in the first couple of months.

What is remaining of the New World players seems like a solid base to build from, though. Where I thought that this might be a short term game, I am now considering that it will be around for longer.

My perception is that the way that New World manages and guides player activities is much different than how ESO does. This is why overland PVP works in New World, and why it would not work in ESO. It isn't the open world PVP, it is the activity that requires PVP. For this reason, you cannot just plop New World PVP rules into ESO and expect it to work.

While the actual number of players leaving the game is reduced, it is mostly because the number of players remaining are so small.

It is still decreasing. When looking specifically at January the game was easily breaching 100k at the beginning of the month. Between the 10th and 17th, they only hit 100k a couple of times. Since then they have not come close.

I am sure the game will be around for a long time but it is not worthy to be mentioned in the same breath as ESO. I would also note that I capped my faction reputation doing the PvP quests since it offers greater rewards. I never had anyone attack me when on the quests. Outside of the wars to take a zone I rarely came across PvP. It is not even a good PvP game.

I feel like it is doing the same as almost every other MMO: Big release, huge disappointment, massive changes... then a playable game evolves over the next few years and it regains popularity. ESO did the same back in the day, but is now sadly declining back into being unplayable.

It's not as bad as people think it is, and people forget how bad ESO launch was. People forget all of the crazy abilities/builds that existed back then in ESO/dupe bugs, etc.

It's also not casual friendly(nor pve friendly), and it will never appeal to the majority of the playerbase in this game. I feel people have discounted it and have stopped following its progress, dismissing it as an abject failure, despite the fact they are making a lot of progress. Ranked arenas/battlegrounds will be very good.

On topic though, NW is designed differently than ESO and is meant to appeal to a different playerbase. Open world pvp wont work in eso. Which is fine, eso is a wonderful game without it.

No it's worse than what peope think. I wish I listened to my guildies and real life friend who told me not to waste my money but I wanted to see it for myself. Worst 50 bucks ever spent. We still lol in discord @ who were calling it an ESO killer. 😅

xaraan

I don't like the concept (didn't care for it in NW either).

It's petty much a way to reward PvPers without PvErs getting access to the rewards when you do things to encourage players to "flag up".

It also results in a lot of trolling, with groups blocking out areas from completing simple tasks unless you get a bigger zerg together to deal with it.

IMO it would turn the whole game into IC, which I don't enjoy personally. Usually when I do IC I either want to deal with quests or gathering tel-var and not pvp, or I want to pvp, I never want to do them together. Different mindset, different rewards, different goals, etc. PvE and PvP - I enjoy them both, but not at the same time.

There are already a ton of ways to PvP in the game: Cyrodiil, IC, BGs, Duels, etc. If you have to force or sway your players into a playstyle, then there is something not fulfilling enough about that playstyle on its own.

Kwoung

mickeyx wrote: »

NagualV wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Also, New World is not a great game to use as an example since it is has become an abject failure losing 85% of their players in the first couple of months.

What is remaining of the New World players seems like a solid base to build from, though. Where I thought that this might be a short term game, I am now considering that it will be around for longer.

My perception is that the way that New World manages and guides player activities is much different than how ESO does. This is why overland PVP works in New World, and why it would not work in ESO. It isn't the open world PVP, it is the activity that requires PVP. For this reason, you cannot just plop New World PVP rules into ESO and expect it to work.

While the actual number of players leaving the game is reduced, it is mostly because the number of players remaining are so small.

It is still decreasing. When looking specifically at January the game was easily breaching 100k at the beginning of the month. Between the 10th and 17th, they only hit 100k a couple of times. Since then they have not come close.

I am sure the game will be around for a long time but it is not worthy to be mentioned in the same breath as ESO. I would also note that I capped my faction reputation doing the PvP quests since it offers greater rewards. I never had anyone attack me when on the quests. Outside of the wars to take a zone I rarely came across PvP. It is not even a good PvP game.

I feel like it is doing the same as almost every other MMO: Big release, huge disappointment, massive changes... then a playable game evolves over the next few years and it regains popularity. ESO did the same back in the day, but is now sadly declining back into being unplayable.

It's not as bad as people think it is, and people forget how bad ESO launch was. People forget all of the crazy abilities/builds that existed back then in ESO/dupe bugs, etc.

It's also not casual friendly(nor pve friendly), and it will never appeal to the majority of the playerbase in this game. I feel people have discounted it and have stopped following its progress, dismissing it as an abject failure, despite the fact they are making a lot of progress. Ranked arenas/battlegrounds will be very good.

On topic though, NW is designed differently than ESO and is meant to appeal to a different playerbase. Open world pvp wont work in eso. Which is fine, eso is a wonderful game without it.

No it's worse than what peope think. I wish I listened to my guildies and real life friend who told me not to waste my money but I wanted to see it for myself. Worst 50 bucks ever spent. We still lol in discord @ who were calling it an ESO killer. 😅

If you purchase any MMO day one and expected it to work, that is pretty much on you. The number of truly successful MMO launches that have ever happened, is in the single digit range, can maybe even be counted on one hand...and that includes the big ones like FFXIV, EQII and oh... ESO which was garbage for quite a while (wasn't it like 2 years before they finally managed to get on the right track here?). One of few successful ones I think was WoW, which I never really played much, but they minimized their risk of failure by making it super simple at launch and building from there, which even it is nothing like the game they released all those years ago. But maybe WoW was trash as well, someone else would have to speak to that.

NW was never meant to be a ESO killer, it is an open world PVP game, and ESO is a PVE game, in which most of the player base hates PVP, so it is kind of confusing anyone would call it an ESO killer, two entirely different types of games.

Tandor

Kwoung wrote: »

mickeyx wrote: »

NagualV wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

Also, New World is not a great game to use as an example since it is has become an abject failure losing 85% of their players in the first couple of months.

What is remaining of the New World players seems like a solid base to build from, though. Where I thought that this might be a short term game, I am now considering that it will be around for longer.

My perception is that the way that New World manages and guides player activities is much different than how ESO does. This is why overland PVP works in New World, and why it would not work in ESO. It isn't the open world PVP, it is the activity that requires PVP. For this reason, you cannot just plop New World PVP rules into ESO and expect it to work.

While the actual number of players leaving the game is reduced, it is mostly because the number of players remaining are so small.

It is still decreasing. When looking specifically at January the game was easily breaching 100k at the beginning of the month. Between the 10th and 17th, they only hit 100k a couple of times. Since then they have not come close.

I am sure the game will be around for a long time but it is not worthy to be mentioned in the same breath as ESO. I would also note that I capped my faction reputation doing the PvP quests since it offers greater rewards. I never had anyone attack me when on the quests. Outside of the wars to take a zone I rarely came across PvP. It is not even a good PvP game.

I feel like it is doing the same as almost every other MMO: Big release, huge disappointment, massive changes... then a playable game evolves over the next few years and it regains popularity. ESO did the same back in the day, but is now sadly declining back into being unplayable.

It's not as bad as people think it is, and people forget how bad ESO launch was. People forget all of the crazy abilities/builds that existed back then in ESO/dupe bugs, etc.

It's also not casual friendly(nor pve friendly), and it will never appeal to the majority of the playerbase in this game. I feel people have discounted it and have stopped following its progress, dismissing it as an abject failure, despite the fact they are making a lot of progress. Ranked arenas/battlegrounds will be very good.

On topic though, NW is designed differently than ESO and is meant to appeal to a different playerbase. Open world pvp wont work in eso. Which is fine, eso is a wonderful game without it.

No it's worse than what peope think. I wish I listened to my guildies and real life friend who told me not to waste my money but I wanted to see it for myself. Worst 50 bucks ever spent. We still lol in discord @ who were calling it an ESO killer. 😅

If you purchase any MMO day one and expected it to work, that is pretty much on you. The number of truly successful MMO launches that have ever happened, is in the single digit range, can maybe even be counted on one hand...and that includes the big ones like FFXIV, EQII and oh... ESO which was garbage for quite a while (wasn't it like 2 years before they finally managed to get on the right track here?). One of few successful ones I think was WoW, which I never really played much, but they minimized their risk of failure by making it super simple at launch and building from there, which even it is nothing like the game they released all those years ago. But maybe WoW was trash as well, someone else would have to speak to that.

NW was never meant to be a ESO killer, it is an open world PVP game, and ESO is a PVE game, in which most of the player base hates PVP, so it is kind of confusing anyone would call it an ESO killer, two entirely different types of games.

And yet plenty did, as with every other new release before it.

Amottica

M0ntie wrote: »

How? You can’t be trapped into a duel when opted out.

In othern games I’ve seen PvP players glitch someone not flagged for PvP into being flagged.

Regardless, as I pointed earlier, Zenimax made a strong-willed decision early in the conceptual phase of developing ESO to not have PvP on the questing zones. Considering ESO is doing just fine they don’t seem to see a reason to change the design.

What is even more interesting is I rarely saw PvP in NW (the game used an a great example of what can be done. I also leveled my faction doing the PvP quests and never got attacked. It seemed the brief wars was the only time PvP really occurred. That says without a reason an open world PvP on ESO’s PvE zone would be a waste of time to develop.

dcam86b14_ESO

pvp does not make the game any money, bringing more of it to the game would just kill it

Alinhbo_Tyaka

Adding open world PvP to ESO will bring out open world griefing against PvE players doing PvE things. It happens in every game that supports open world PvP and the option to opt out. Open world PvP tends to trigger a subset of the PvP crowd to where they go out of their way to try to grief players into losing their temper and flagging for PvP. It doesn't matter what the PvP flagging rules are the fact is I am the one who has to interrupt my game play to get away from the situation. An example that I ran into frequently on WoW's normal servers (i.e. must flag for PvP) was I'd be fishing and some PvP griefer would start jumping all around and/or park a mount over bobber. I could move but they would eventually find me again and we'd start the full cycle all over again. While I'm not into PvP it works best when in its own environment separate from the PvE element like we have here in ESO or like you have in Final Fantasy XIV.

xclassgaming

This is a terrible idea. Keep PVP and PVE seperate, we saw what happened in IC.

mikemacon

No.

MorninStar

Absolutely NO. The biggest reason I play is cause both PvP and PvE are separate. I don't have to worry about being out doing my own thing and boom I'm dead from a PvPer, losing gear and xp on top of it. Sorry to inform but there are a lot more Pve players then Pvp atm and I don't think they want to lose what player base they have left to open world pvping.

This is ESO not WoW, NW, Runescape, etc. If you want those games then go play them. Stop trying to turn ESO into them

M0ntie

Wow I can’t believe how many people can’t read. The suggestion was for opt in only. Also how rigid people are in their thinking. What’s wrong with mixing it up a bit, giving the option of pvp in a pve zone.

M0ntie

The next forum thread will be on how overland it too easy and boring. Well opt IN pvp would make it more interesting.
(Btw I am not a pvper,)

hafgood

M0ntie wrote: »

Wow I can’t believe how many people can’t read. The suggestion was for opt in only. Also how rigid people are in their thinking. What’s wrong with mixing it up a bit, giving the option of pvp in a pve zone.

It's not about being unable to read nor is about rigid thinking.

If you have read the thread you will see numerous reasons why this is not desirable, which includes the fact that most players would not opt in, this makes it almost a wasted development, why would you spend valuable developers time on something most players will ignore when you can spend that time on something that most players will use?

And with the issues in Cyrodiil it is far better use of the developers time to rewrite the fundamental coding than to bolt something more onto an already flawed system that cannot cope.

Plus - IC is PvPvE and isn't exactly heaving is it? If the player base was more interested in this kind of area you would be queueing to get into IC

_adhyffbjjjf12

the only mmorpg i know of that has working open world pvp is eve online, and that has very specialised features that make it work:

- 5000 'zones' so people and strategies have space to breath
- 'High sec' zones where if you attack someone then you get a chance to get the kill but npc's in the area will kill you within seconds (you are not allowed to avoid this). This Allows PVEers areas to play while at the same time creating jeopardy if you carry too much loot or if your guild is in a war (NPC wont attack)
- Full loot, but see above, the attackers gear will get destroyed as well.
- a complex economy design by economists that works, so destroyed gear is a good thing.


The reason i mention this is that New World 'tried' to copy elements of eve online as well as every other mmorpg under the sun without understanding what makes them work which is why its in an utter mess and not a good role model. re ESO, its strength is PVE, and actually I don't think the engine can handle PVP in open world.

BlueRaven

Oh it’s optional you say?

Ok, I am healing a wb and I am not tagged for pvp;

• Can I still heal people from other factions?
• If I heal someone tagged for pvp, am I now tagged for pvp?

I am grouped with someone who is tagged for pvp;

• Am I now tagged for pvp?
• What happens if we are not in the same faction?

•••

I can ask more, basically don’t do this. It is not needed and creates a ton of complications.

worrallj

Even with flaggable pvp like you said, there are many people in this community who just loath pvp so unbelievably much they would hate it. The mere sight of pvp going on in their vacinity would enrage them. It's a level of hatred that I find shocking but it is definitely there.

Edit: also it's pretty clear to me that the designers vision for ESO was to insulate people from pvp who don't want it, to keep the normal questing experience feeling safe and relaxing and as close to a single player rpg as possible. I think that's why they never implemented it.

Kwoung

worrallj wrote: »

Even with flaggable pvp like you said, there are many people in this community who just loath pvp so unbelievably much they would hate it. The mere sight of pvp going on in their vacinity would enrage them. It's a level of hatred that I find shocking but it is definitely there.

Pretty much this ^^^

And I agree, it is incredible how much some people hate PVP... in a game in which it is completely optional to even enter the zones it happens in, yet they rally against it even existing. Some even refuse to enter Cyrodiil or IC, even though the bases are 100% PVP free, just being to close to where it happens somehow causes them anxiety, it is a very odd thing. The really interesting bit to me is, unlike other games, PVP in ESO has zero consequences and is all rewards, so there really isn't a reason to have any attitude.. even if you die while doing it:

a. You don't lose experience.
b. Your gear doesn't get damaged.
c. You don't lose gold.
d. You don't lose gear.
e. You don't lose AP.
f. You earned skill points.
g. You earned AP, which is game currencies you can spend on stuff there is no other way to purchase.
h. You earned Alliance rank, for skills used in PVE.
i. You earn a ton of easy Transmutes.

and... You can do it all *without* ever actually engaging in PVP if you want and have your wits about you.

Tomboski

Amottica wrote: »

Could it work? I am sure if AGS made it work then Zenimax could easily make it work if they wanted that. However, considering that is not the game we purchased and the game is doing well it would not make sense to make such a major change. Even then, Rich stated that in the early development of the game they made a "strong-willed decision" to not have PvP in the PvE questing zones as they did not want us distracted by PvP when trying to enjoy the stories.

Also, New World is not a great game to use as an example since it is has become an abject failure losing 85% of their players in the first couple of months.

But AGS hasn't managed to make anything "work" thus far, ever.

Tomboski

Adremal wrote: »

Thanks but no thanks, It didn't even work out well in New World.

Unfortunately, nothing worked out well in New World.

Tomboski

Subjectcrank wrote: »

Use City's as safe harborage for open world flaggable pvp? So the concept is simple, run repeatable killing or gathering missions while flagging yourself for pvp? In Any zone. Put a mission NPC for these quests, with also a vender for gear subsequent to your rating in OW-PVP. Could this work without taking away that of which is already set for pvp areas? Also while flagged using your assistants and companions wouldn't be available. and the only way to unflag yourself is being in a city. Where and once you leave the designated flagging/unflagging area you have a 10 second timer Before you can engage in pvp.

It is just a concept. but The one thing I did enjoy from New World was grinding pvp sets while running on foot flagged through the trees, not knowing if or when i would get attacked.

Please don't bring New World into this. The best thing about that game is unwittingly incentivizing their player base to play any other game. The only thing I'm grateful for from AGS is inspiring me to explore anything else.

Danikat

Whether anyone else thinks they're right or wrong I think the number of people who don't ever want to PvP is an important factor.

As many people have pointed out ESO already offers this type of gameplay in Imperial City (and to a lesser extent via PvE quests in Cyrodiil) and it's not exactly popular with players. Even after Imperial City was made free rather than paid DLC there's relatively few people in there and a lot of the people who are there either focus exclusively on PvE and try to avoid encountering enemy players or focus entirely on PvP - hunting for other players to fight and ignoring the PvE objectives.

Allowing players to flag for PvP anywhere in the world runs the risk of spreading out the minority who like the idea so much that they'll never find each other. At best it will be like duelling where you have to go to the unofficial 'hot spots' (usually on top of specific wayshrines) to find people to duel. If PvPers will need to concentrate into specific areas in order to find people they can fight in between PvE activities why not make an official location for it, and why not make that the one we already have?

Jeffrey530

M0ntie wrote: »

Wow I can’t believe how many people can’t read. The suggestion was for opt in only. Also how rigid people are in their thinking. What’s wrong with mixing it up a bit, giving the option of pvp in a pve zone.

Lol sticking in 'optional' does not make a suggestion immune to criticism. Dev time, resources, direction of the game and many other things also need to be considered.

While we are at it, let's make OPTIONAL:
Single player instances
Pve cyrodil
Survival mode
All are optional so what can go wrong right?

etchedpixels

It works dismally in games like Albion Online (the game that New World also seems to have taken most of its economics ideas from) where it's effectively a PvE progress cap.

Imperial City would benefit from a PvE / PvP flagging because of the dreadful design decision long ago to mix PvP and PvE content in one place. It's just fortunate that the IC story line is also so bad nobody is missing anything. That would be easy to do as well - just have a way to enter IC as "fighters guild" and only give PvE rewards/quest stuff.

PvE Cyrodiil just wouldn't make sense any more than PvP in a lot of the other zones would. I mean who would want to run around a vast empty map killing the odd wolf whilst enduring 3 second lag spikes from a passing zerg ? Maybe solely as a way to transit to the Cyrodiil delves perhaps ?

Casul

I know people who would enjoy it as opt in, myself included, but it probably would never happen just because the general PvE crowd hates the PvP crowd. For now I will keep rooting for PvP housing options.

etchedpixels

BuildMan wrote: »

I know people who would enjoy it as opt in, myself included, but it probably would never happen just because the general PvE crowd hates the PvP crowd. For now I will keep rooting for PvP housing options.

I don't think that is a fair comment. The PvE "crowd" hates having PvP inflicted upon it. That's a different thing to hating the PvP crowd. It's not a problem wandering around ignoring people having private fights in PvE zones providing they fix the PvP lag first. If there is no reason to run PvP flagged then it's not a problem to anyone - or perhaps if the reason is AP only.

PrimusTiberius

We have players who want to make Cyrodiil a PvE "save" zone, we have PvP'er who want to have the whole map as a PvP zone, ESO has PvP in Cyrodiil, keep it there. I would suggest for ZOS to expand on player options for both Battlegrounds and Cyrodiil.

Casul

etchedpixels wrote: »

BuildMan wrote: »

I know people who would enjoy it as opt in, myself included, but it probably would never happen just because the general PvE crowd hates the PvP crowd. For now I will keep rooting for PvP housing options.

I don't think that is a fair comment. The PvE "crowd" hates having PvP inflicted upon it. That's a different thing to hating the PvP crowd. It's not a problem wandering around ignoring people having private fights in PvE zones providing they fix the PvP lag first. If there is no reason to run PvP flagged then it's not a problem to anyone - or perhaps if the reason is AP only.

If the system was opt in then how would it inflict PvP on the PvE crowd? There are already people here that hate dueling in towns (which honestly if they put a wayshrine in hammer death arena that might help), I think most people just don't like seeing any PvPers enjoying themselves because they either 1: had a bad experience with PvP themselves. 2: blame PvP for balancing changes that happened. It's an us vs them mentality I think personally.

Varana

Not liking dueling in towns has absolutely nothing to do with "seeing people enjoying themselves" and everything with the jumping around and the sound and flashy graphical effects of skills firing and AoEs on the ground, which can be quite annoying if you just want to do chores or stand around chatting.
But hey, let's just randomly accuse people.

JKorr

M0ntie wrote: »

Wow I can’t believe how many people can’t read. The suggestion was for opt in only. Also how rigid people are in their thinking. What’s wrong with mixing it up a bit, giving the option of pvp in a pve zone.

Opt in. Yeah. That will stop players determined to be *** trolls from being *** trolls. They'd never do anything like constantly set off aoe spells where pve players are trying to do pve business. Or dance on craft stations, park pets over tables and block as many things as possible. None of them would mudball pve players to *** them off as much as possible to "opt in" to get the harassment to stop. None of them would camp thieves' refuge entries, or quest givers and interfere with pve players doing pve business. Its not like some players don't spam AOEs or force everyone to pull weapons because they can or anything. /sarcasm

No. Mixing pvp and pve in pve zones is a huge NO. When dueling was first brought up as a possibility I was hoping that agreeing to a duel would immediately port the duelers to Boethia's arenas where they could fight to their competitive little hearts content. Didn't happen, unfortunately.

Tandor

Jeffrey530 wrote: »

M0ntie wrote: »

Wow I can’t believe how many people can’t read. The suggestion was for opt in only. Also how rigid people are in their thinking. What’s wrong with mixing it up a bit, giving the option of pvp in a pve zone.

Lol sticking in 'optional' does not make a suggestion immune to criticism. Dev time, resources, direction of the game and many other things also need to be considered.

While we are at it, let's make OPTIONAL:
Single player instances
Pve cyrodil
Survival mode
All are optional so what can go wrong right?

I'd add an optional auction house. Those who don't want it can still use their guild traders, right?