Is ZoS killing the game by allow players selling runs?

Theros

i belive i was not understood in here. The main problem is not selling runs. Its players only go if we pay! Once again this is NOT all players. But they are to many now!

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Well from my own experiences I can say that if no effort is put into passing things, well then why complain about having to pay for them?

ESO was a far more social game in it's beginnings and we were constantly switching 'teamspeaks' or 'mumbles' to join groups who were doing the same content 'globally'. The issue now is that this content is old and many of the newer player (some old too hey) missed that boat either by choice or by absence.

Now the problem with paid for runs is that is essentially removing the need for certain players to find these groups and live the same experience that we did. Ok it's just for a title or a personality, but...it does remove another player who could potentially be helping you in a 'correct' raiding team.

Food for thought.

daim

This has been a thing as long these types of games have existed. At least I remember we did that back in vanilla WoW in 2004 and it wasnt a new thing back then either. Nothing to worry about.

Theros

I will try to explain better. The problem in here is only this:

1) Players with nice damage are avoid pugs (we understand why)
2) But this same players will go if we pay a ride.

3) Most of the pugs have no damage at cuz they cant make rotation (like me) Max 70k dummy, 25k inside trials.
4) Since Pugs don't have damage we CAN'T make trials. Or ok, we can. But we finish 1 out of 10.

5) One day i join in one group to go make vet dungeon. Later on i find he call pugs to help him in the dugeon cuz he was selling loot. All of us in there go for free cuz he dont say anything to noone.
Its the same for Trials. I belive Many players are avoid to join, cuz "maybe" its a carry 25M run.
i never did anything with that guy. Not because he dont pay or give me money. But because it's 100% wrong selling loot (this is my opinion. But i respect yours)

6) Ofc the can sell whatever they whant sell. But this is making players with damage go away from pugs and joining sellers
7) Once again. I really belive at this moment only 70% of players can make vet Trials. And its only because 1 motive. no damage! Once again. Bad rotations, and no players to join.

I hope you understand what im saying. The problem in NOT selling runs. The problem is players avoid pugs to join with selling runs.

endgamesmug

I wouldnt pay for a run myself but if others see great value in that stuff go for it, its expensive to pay for traders for guilds and the supplies to raid. So as i understand it that is why more and more raid groups run carries. I love running some vet content but i struggle to find anyone at all to run it with, its the state of the population currently as i see it they have all got the things or they have no interest at all

VaranisArano

Theros wrote: »

I will try to explain better. The problem in here is only this:

1) Players with nice damage are avoid pugs (we understand why)
2) But this same players will go if we pay a ride.

3) Most of the pugs have no damage at cuz they cant make rotation (like me) Max 70k dummy, 25k inside trials.
4) Since Pugs don't have damage we CAN'T make trials. Or ok, we can. But we finish 1 out of 10.

5) One day i join in one group to go make vet dungeon. Later on i find he call pugs to help him in the dugeon cuz he was selling loot. All of us in there go for free cuz he dont say anything to noone.
Its the same for Trials. I belive Many players are avoid to join, cuz "maybe" its a carry 25M run.
i never did anything with that guy. Not because he dont pay or give me money. But because it's 100% wrong selling loot (this is my opinion. But i respect yours)

6) Ofc the can sell whatever they whant sell. But this is making players with damage go away from pugs and joining sellers
7) Once again. I really belive at this moment only 70% of players can make vet Trials. And its only because 1 motive. no damage! Once again. Bad rotations, and no players to join.

I hope you understand what im saying. The problem in NOT selling runs. The problem is players avoid pugs to join with selling runs.

I'm defining a "carry run" where a guild group brings along someone who ordinarily has no hope of completing the content for a Trial achievement, collectible, gear, etc. run. I see these advertisements fairly frequently in Craglorn while I farm.

A "gear run" is where someone's used their sticker book to guarantee that the loot curation will always drop a "Burning Spellweave Inferno Staff" or something like that, and is selling the item, not the run itself. Its not really a lot different from someone getting the loot drop and selling it, except that it's a repeatable service.

Finally, it sounds to me like your complaint is about a lack of high DPS players running PUGs. Carry runs in trials and gear runs in dungeons are what you blame for that situation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

So, my thoughts:

Trials: Nobody is obligated to PUG. Indeed, many players who do good enough damage to qualify for a place in trials guilds will run with their guild rather than PUG with randoms.

I think that the lack of PUGs you see is better explained by high DPS players choosing to run with a guild. Some guilds will sell carry runs. Some guilds focus on scorepushing. Others are more focused on progression towards certain trials or achievements. Whatever the case, most trials guilds don't have the problem you say you see in PUGs: no damage.

The main benefit of a guild is that trials are a group activity and thus go a lot smoother when you work with 11 other players who are also on about the same level and share the same goals. PUGs just don't offer the same level of cooperation, dedication, or (frequently) willingness to improve together. The result is that players who want efficient clears gravitate to guilds. As you note, PUGs are more likely to fail.

The answer to your problem isn't to disallow players from selling runs. Money-making opportunities aren't the fundental reason you aren't getting high DPS players in your PUGs. The fundamental reason is that players who can perform at that level have few reasons to play with PUGs when they already have a guild team to raid with that's on their level and shares their goals. (Also, low damage and higher risk of failure with PUGs).

Let's be honest here: if we disallow selling carry runs, the players selling those runs are not going to start running with PUGs. The people buying those runs might, but they probably aren't the most capable teammates or they wouldn't be buying a carry in the first place.

Possible solutions:
1. ask ZOS for a Trial Groupfinder so that PUGs have an easier time forming groups from interested players.

2. Join a trials guild. You might have to improve to meet their base requirements, or look for one that will take you with your current parse.


Dungeons: Thanks to the new loot curation, there's a brief boom in "gear runs" where someone can guarantee a particular drop. However, since Groupfinder is what it is, it's not true that selling runs are killing PUG life, since you can queue for any dungeon and your group will eventually be filled.


I realize this probably isn't the answer you wanted, but there's no way to force high DPS players to play with PUGs if they don't want to. Especially once they are good enough to play with their guild, there's just not much reason to PUG it.

You don't have to pay to get good group members, but you may have to look around for a progression guild or improve to meet the standards of your desired trials guild if you want a regular group to raid with.

Honestly, with what you've said about a 1/10 success rate of your PUG runs? I think joining a guild would be worth it in terms of getting to work with an efficient team.

Arunei

Theros wrote: »

last print someone send to me discord print: https://ibb.co/TKJtrPL

WTS Perfected Sul Xan Inferno 100% guaranteed drop
3m if i have to do the whole trial
1m if i can just tp to final boss

the point is: Many players only do trials if someone pay to them or they don't even go not even with guilds (unless its a friend)
My english is very bad and maybe i can't be more direct to explain what i tought it's a problem for the game.
And ofc its not all players doing this, but it's to many players now! This days it's very hard find people for trials.
Maybe the problem is this no sence rotation and because of that players can't do damage and that allow other players "sabotage" the game. I don't know what is causing all of this. But i know, game is going in a very bad direction because ZoS allow us make money in trials\dungeons.

Like I said before, having a problem finding people for trials isn't because of people paying for runs. Those people who are paying for runs aren't queueing for trials to begin with, so the people selling runs aren't "stealing" bodies away from trials. You're trying to blame people for sabotaging the game when they aren't doing that in the slightest, and the game isn't going in a bad direction because of run sellers/buyers.

Do you want to know what IS causing problems with the game? Broken or buggy mechanics, broken or buggy skills, broken or buggy light/heavy attacks, performance issues, lag, and so on. You aren't having a hard time finding people for trials because of evil run sellers, you're having a hard time because people are getting tired of being frustrated with playing the game.

Call_of_Red_Mountain

Not sure about killing, but I'm tired from "Selling all skins, all personalities.. " spam in every zone.

Castagere

FluffWit wrote: »

Castagere wrote: »

I wanted to do world bosses run in a zone and had max-level cp players saying they would do it for a fee. So players charging for stuff now does not surprise me.

In 7 years I've never seen that. They were probably just trolling you.

I thought so too. But they all sent me private tells.

Xebov

Theros wrote: »

i belive i was not understood in here. The main problem is not selling runs. Its players only go if we pay! Once again this is NOT all players. But they are to many now!

At what point is that a problem? If they have everything they need from a trial why should they run it? We get one trial a year, thats a lot of time to fill collections and do achievments. The groups that do these paid runs are so well organized tehy can do the trials in minimum time, if tehy want to farm them for themselves i simply put some hours into it and they are done. Without paid runs they would not run them at all.

Arunei

@Theros
I see what you're saying now, but even if ZOS wasn't allowing people to sell runs, that wouldn't make more people go do trials. In fact, a lot of people would stop doing them after the first run, because unless they're going for gear or all the achievements, what's the point of running any trial multiple times? You aren't going to find trial groups easier if ZOS were to disallow selling runs. Also, the people who are selling runs aren't targeting people like you to begin with, they're not queueing for the trial just to do it or whatever. So again, even if ZOS didn't allow selling trial runs, you wouldn't be seeing these people pugging for trials. They just wouldn't do them anymore.

What I mentioned earlier about problems with the game itself, all the technical problems, are what's causing this issue. Some advice though; try going to Craglorn. Every time I go there for surveys or Endeavors or just to farm mats, there are people looking for trial groups. So long as it's not in the middle of the night or super early in the morning, anyway.

Deter1UK

fizl101 wrote: »

I don't know if you are on console or not, but I believe it is the one area where console is a little better (communication). Even if people don't want to talk, you can at least ask them to be on headphones and in the voice chat channel so they can hear what the trial leader wants them to do etc, explain mechanics if needed and so on. I couldn't imagine doing that only over text channels

My Guild uses Discord for this it works fine. (mostly via Mobile or iPad)

Jaimeh

I think selling trials is a lot more common on the EU server than on NA, at least I see way more zone messages about carry runs on EU than on NA, but still, I think it's a small portion of the population that participates in those in either server. I do think the end game community has shrunk somewhat, but I don't think it has to do with carry trials, and there's plenty of PUG discords that organize mutliple trials daily.

Arunei

Jaimeh wrote: »

I think selling trials is a lot more common on the EU server than on NA, at least I see way more zone messages about carry runs on EU than on NA, but still, I think it's a small portion of the population that participates in those in either server. I do think the end game community has shrunk somewhat, but I don't think it has to do with carry trials, and there's plenty of PUG discords that organize mutliple trials daily.

I play on NA, and while I sometimes see trial run ads in random zones, those are usually from guilds who specialize in them. Most of the people just asking for groups (aka pugging) seem to be in Craglorn these days.

As for the endgame trial community, a lot of people who do runs for progression and stuff have probably indeed found guilds for it, but beyond that, fewer people are pugging for these things because of all the technical problems the game has.

knightblaster

This is nothing new, and is in virtually every MMO. It's impossible to stop as long as players have a way of acquiring in-game currency in a fairly decent amount.

Most of the complaints about this are usually a manifestation of other issues a player has with the game. If a player is content with the game and having a good time, they are generally not concerned that some other player wants to spend cash to be carried in content, because it has no direct impact on them.

WiseSky

If you want to spend 400 Million on getting a Trifecta... I am glad there are people skilled enough to be paid that much it just shows how much skills n coordination matter at the end game level.

guarstompemoji

So...

1. Yes, it can be difficult to find a trials guild, or at least, the "right" trials guild. To find one, a person first has to start doing trials...but how? Many trials guilds do "bait runs" in Craglorn to get people to join. This is a right time, right place sort of gamble.
2. There are many trials guilds out there. Be picky in which one you join. Don't feel compelled to stay in a toxic group.
3. Likewise, the less toxic guilds can be more careful in how they advertise. More word of mouth, etc.
4. Before a person can start doing trials, they'll need to practice and work on their game. ESO is not known for its tutorials in this area.

I get your original point. I also see how others ran off with a misinterpretation.

The issue is more with #4, and #1, than purchasing runs.

A benefit to being able to purchase runs: It can let a person chill, do the things they want, and still get the skin they want. Or, avoid the toxicity that is in some parts of the endgame trials (and pvp) community. Pay for the run, get treated professionally, then wham, get on with life.

Eliran

The problem is WEAVING, and WEAVING is the reason why pugs cant get high daamge.

Amottica

The game seems to be doing just fine. So the answer is this is not killing the game.

Players that want to be legit and have the skill are still going to be in raiding guilds and be part of actually doing it themselves.

karekiz

I would argue selling runs isn't against any game breaking rules. However, having a player die outside an instance to port in to circumvent the no death is near exploity in nature.

xaraan

I mean... in the end that ship has sailed.

It's been happening from almost the start.

You think before there was a gold market for it, there were not people getting carried b/c they were friends or partners with the right people, or doing some other favor for them in game or out of it, getting carried b/c they are a streamer, run an influential non trials guild, etc. Carries have always and will always be a thing, it's probably the most fair to open it up to everyone and just charge gold.

But we can go down the rabbit hole of buying carries with real life money b/c i can buy crowns, sell them for crazy prices, then buy carries in game. I mean, this game is the closest it can be to pay to win without just selling magical insta kill swords in the crown shop.

francesinhalover

No, because 80% of the playerbase can't afford them

gronoxvx

Theres much worse things killing this game compared to people who have the cash paying for runs. It doesnt effect you so why care so much about it?

colossalvoids

Honestly speaking I really dislike when all the "veteran", "100k+" or however you want to call them are labelled more as a service rather than players. Like they should help everyone no matter what at any given moment and if they've found other avenues it's wrong and killing the game.

Currently endgame'ish pve scene from my own POV is probably the smallest it ever was due to different reasons. Surely some of them are sellers of sorts because in-game economy isn't in the healthiest state currently considering crates and CS stuff to be in such a demand without enough of a supply. Would probably bait on it myself if had enough free time and willpower.
Anyway, sellers are a small fraction of this community and doesn't really apply as a "problem" here, there are still guilds and discords doing all sorts of activities and trying to find at least some capable folks around which is hard. Ask for one, people might give you a lead or two.

Just an example I was invited into Achievement Hunters discord yesterday to mainly check on bugs etc with our own runs but apparently reading general tab it's main purpose was to form prog groups (from just challengers to small obscure achieves) and they're looking for ways to reach out for more folks to come in. Yeah it's just a small channel but those are scattered around in masses, ask peeps around if you're interested in that sort of things and chances are some might help instead of just waiting around in Crags for a miracle.

fizl101

Deter1UK wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

I don't know if you are on console or not, but I believe it is the one area where console is a little better (communication). Even if people don't want to talk, you can at least ask them to be on headphones and in the voice chat channel so they can hear what the trial leader wants them to do etc, explain mechanics if needed and so on. I couldn't imagine doing that only over text channels

My Guild uses Discord for this it works fine. (mostly via Mobile or iPad)

Yep and I would expect to use Discord or teamspeak with an organised group, but I'm not sure a PUG will get everyone into discord or similar on a regular basis . To be fair I'm not actually sure if an active URL can even be put into chat, not something I've tried

colossalvoids

fizl101 wrote: »

Deter1UK wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

I don't know if you are on console or not, but I believe it is the one area where console is a little better (communication). Even if people don't want to talk, you can at least ask them to be on headphones and in the voice chat channel so they can hear what the trial leader wants them to do etc, explain mechanics if needed and so on. I couldn't imagine doing that only over text channels

My Guild uses Discord for this it works fine. (mostly via Mobile or iPad)

To be fair I'm not actually sure if an active URL can even be put into chat, not something I've tried

Only with some chat add-on, should be installed for both players though to work.

FlopsyPrince

No - to answer the OP.

Pepegrillos

There is a twist to run selling. Since the runs are very expensive, not every player can afford them. You either are a very good trader or...you sell enough crowns to players till you get the gold required. This also happens in WoW. Although over there, people buy Tokens and exchange them for gold until they have the money.

FlopsyPrince

FluffWit wrote: »

Castagere wrote: »

I wanted to do world bosses run in a zone and had max-level cp players saying they would do it for a fee. So players charging for stuff now does not surprise me.

In 7 years I've never seen that. They were probably just trolling you.

At least one guild I am in does this kind of run on a fairly regular basis.

FeedbackOnly

Theros wrote: »

This days, is very very hard to find players to complete one Trial. I see alot of players with cp2000+ and only 30k damage and some cp800with 100k damage.
From some time ago until now, i notice this: "Its almost impossible finish trials" with pugs. But if you buy the ride you can finish any one.
same for many dungeons like vFG, vMoS etc.... no one will join, unless you pay (Yes, i have all cuz i got luck).
My point in here is only this one:
Is ZoS killing the game by allow players selling runs?
Its very easy to go Discord and find people to make any trial... if we pay! They are selling runs for 25M until 250M its crazy!
For some reason i cant explain (my english is very bad), i really belive im looking for the end of trials, dungeons.... and game

I know of two trial discords off hand for pugs

https://discord.gg/P8tem7nsHr

https://discord.gg/8Rypfxyvhk

I see dozens of runs each day offered