Is ZoS killing the game by allow players selling runs?

Theros

This days, is very very hard to find players to complete one Trial. I see alot of players with cp2000+ and only 30k damage and some cp800with 100k damage.
From some time ago until now, i notice this: "Its almost impossible finish trials" with pugs. But if you buy the ride you can finish any one.
same for many dungeons like vFG, vMoS etc.... no one will join, unless you pay (Yes, i have all cuz i got luck).
My point in here is only this one:
Is ZoS killing the game by allow players selling runs?
Its very easy to go Discord and find people to make any trial... if we pay! They are selling runs for 25M until 250M its crazy!
For some reason i cant explain (my english is very bad), i really belive im looking for the end of trials, dungeons.... and game

LalMirchi

Excuse me dear one, I do not see the need for these exercises, please forgive me as I do not do these kind of activities.

fizl101

i honestly don't think they are. The groups that can sell these run are highly organised, very well practiced and know how to work together as a team for the goal. It takes a lot of practice and dedication to get to that stage, and its very unlikely they did it as a set of PUGs.

PUGs by their nature are not going to have that same organisation and knowledge of each others abilities, skills, knowledge. You will get people of various abilities, some with good knowledge of the trial - some none, maybe not even speaking the same language or communicating at all.

I don't personally enjoy PUG for trials and dungeons, so I run them with guild mates. Running with them regularly you learn their strengths etc.

I don't know if you are on console or not, but I believe it is the one area where console is a little better (communication). Even if people don't want to talk, you can at least ask them to be on headphones and in the voice chat channel so they can hear what the trial leader wants them to do etc, explain mechanics if needed and so on. I couldn't imagine doing that only over text channels

Michaelkeir

I say no. Buying trials is only a small portion. What is happening is that the ones who have truly mastered trial runs are those in tight knit and organized groups with a very strict criteria for entry. That combined with a very small endgame community and you have where we are now. So it may seem like buying runs is killing endgame but in reality it’s a lot more complex then that.

Only solution I can see is that you get your DPS up to a respectable level, and apply to one of those guilds. If it’s high enough they’ll take you in and test you more to be put on their main team. Or you could roll a tank or healer and try that if your DPS is not god tier. Tanks are in high demand for end game trials.

Just my 2 cents.

Arthtur

I dont like that somebody can buy the "carry run" but why should i care? They pay for not having fun in the game. Its thier decision.

Also i dont know about this vFL. I see ppl looking for group almost everyday for getting personality from here. And the rest of dungeons doesnt have "good" rewards so a lot less ppl are willing to do them.

VaranisArano

For a third option, you can also join a guild that runs trials.

Guilds may have role requirements for their players. This usually makes them a step up from PUGs, but also means they won't usually carry players like the run-sellers.


As for Dungeons, Groupfinder exists. If you want to PUG vet Fungal Grotto or vMoS, just queue for that specific dungeon and your group will eventually fill up. No guarantees they'll be good, but that's the PUG life. If that doesn't suit you, maybe look for a guild that's interested in dungeons?

Drammanoth

ZOS has nothing to do with allowing players - it is the players themselves who "provide" such services.

hafgood

I see no problem with people selling carries at all, it allows players to get achievements that would be otherwise beyond then.

And no I haven't felt the need to buy them but don't object to this that do as a lot of work goes into those carries

Nisekev

I remember such things existing before ESO, yet MMOs are still a thing. So no, this isn't going to kill the game. Also how ZoS are supposed to forbid selling Dungeon and Trial runs?

Kiralyn2000

People and guilds have been selling carries to their "farm raids" since at least vanilla WoW. There's nothing new about it, there's nothing wrong about it. It's just a thing people can do - selling your skills to other players is a normal part of MMOs. Master crafters do it, why shouldn't master raiders? /shrug

spartaxoxo

No. This kind of thing has been happening since MMOs added it's first bound rewards to hard content. Almost nobody is basing their purchasing their decisions on whether or not some dude they don't even know earned their title or not. Nor does it dissuade the people who earned it from wanting to do so, instead they just blabber on about how they actually earned their reward unlike someone who bought it to anyone who gives a darn (and even to the many who don't).

The reason that it's hard to find people to do trials is that even getting a complete is overly catered towards an amount of dps that almost nobody has the ability to do. If they catered achievements towards such things and left completes as something more realistically completable with like say 45k DPS, then you'd find far more PUGs for vet trials. Because there is an entire mid-tier of players pulling 35k-69k dps that would form your PUG groups in many games because they aren't good enough to be elite, but are good enough to bash their heads together over and over with lots of red bull to get a clear in hours what would take an elite player minutes.

And that scene is mostly absent from this game due to vet trial difficulty being catered towards people well above their dps, and normal trials being catered to people well below it.

Vaoh

Selling runs is healthy for the game imo.

It helps people get the stuff they want from content they dislike/are unable to play. Same with drops from Overland PvE or PvP - you can either run the content repeatedly for your desired reward or buy it from the market.

FYI we got so many buffs across the board like CP 2.0. More groups than ever are able to complete stuff.

Arunei

Just to clarify this matter again, since it's such a prevalent belief; CP has nothing to do with skill. CP is only an indication of time played, and even that could be argued. Just because someone has 2k CP doesn't mean anything, as those CP could have been earned doing things like master writs or just questing (especially considering things like exp scrolls and double exp events). At the same time, a 800CP player could have earned a majority of those running dungeons and trials and thus be very skilled when it comes to healing, tanking, or DPSing.

All that said, the answer to your main question is no. How would they ruin anything? The people who buy these runs aren't being taken from the number of people looking for pugs to do normal runs, and those who are skilled enough to carry potatoes through the hardest content deserve the gold for it. People buying runs to get Collectibles or Dyes they otherwise normally wouldn't be able to get also doesn't take away from the achievement of someone else getting those things on their own, because they have the knowledge of knowing they were capable of doing it.

ixthUA

If veteran trials and vet HM DLC dungeons were gone from the game, ESO would still remain a great game with a very large community.
In my opinion, spending ingame currency to get ingame services is OK

Mojmir

they killin it in other ways

Soulshine

The only downside to this, from a practical standpoint, is that it does generate players in the game who are bearing titles, dyes, skins they never actually earned the normal way. Some will use these as a means to self-promote and then actually try to gatekeep other players, which is kind of ridiculous but I have seen it happen. Not sure the thinking on this or care to, but all I can say is they are themselves quickly discovered in the process.

I belong to a couple guilds that organize runs for sales, and am always somewhat amused by the fact people do actually pay the prices they do just for a title they could earn themselves if they just joined a guild that wanted to get the clears but to some people that is just too difficult for whatever reasons so they throw gold at the problem, or more often than not, crowns for gold and call it a trade.

This all said, I would say if it bothers you, just put them on ignore.

belial5221_ESO

Remember,some people wanna have fun,and may not have lots of time to run one trial 24/7 to get something they want.Also,there's people with disabilities that won't be able to keep up with some mechanics,or have high enough dps cause of hand motion issues,so a carry is only way to get things.As long as they aren't asking to log into your account,or asking real world money,should be fine.

Integral1900

From the developers point of view anything that gets players from the ocean of questing into the ankle deep duck pond of trials has to be a good thing

zaria

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

People and guilds have been selling carries to their "farm raids" since at least vanilla WoW. There's nothing new about it, there's nothing wrong about it. It's just a thing people can do - selling your skills to other players is a normal part of MMOs. Master crafters do it, why shouldn't master raiders? /shrug

This, more so as the benefit of the perfected sets are not large, you could just do the normal trial for the flawed version.

Theros

last print someone send to me discord print: https://ibb.co/TKJtrPL

WTS Perfected Sul Xan Inferno 100% guaranteed drop
3m if i have to do the whole trial
1m if i can just tp to final boss

the point is: Many players only do trials if someone pay to them or they don't even go not even with guilds (unless its a friend)
My english is very bad and maybe i can't be more direct to explain what i tought it's a problem for the game.
And ofc its not all players doing this, but it's to many players now! This days it's very hard find people for trials.
Maybe the problem is this no sence rotation and because of that players can't do damage and that allow other players "sabotage" the game. I don't know what is causing all of this. But i know, game is going in a very bad direction because ZoS allow us make money in trials\dungeons.

Tenthirty2

Theros wrote: »

This days, is very very hard to find players to complete one Trial. I see alot of players with cp2000+ and only 30k damage and some cp800with 100k damage.
From some time ago until now, i notice this: "Its almost impossible finish trials" with pugs. But if you buy the ride you can finish any one.
same for many dungeons like vFG, vMoS etc.... no one will join, unless you pay (Yes, i have all cuz i got luck).
My point in here is only this one:
Is ZoS killing the game by allow players selling runs?
Its very easy to go Discord and find people to make any trial... if we pay! They are selling runs for 25M until 250M its crazy!
For some reason i cant explain (my english is very bad), i really belive im looking for the end of trials, dungeons.... and game

"ZoS killing the game..." is a bit over-dramatic and I do not think it's harming the game at all.
It may be harming a player's experience if they decide to buy a carry\ride or achievements instead of earning them themselves.
But I don't judge, it's their money\gold\blood\first-born child or whatever.

FWIW paying others for a carry I don't see as being much different than many of the quests in game where NPCs "hire" us as the player to be a mercenary and help that NPC complete a quest\task. Only difference is they as the player hire other players "mercenaries" to help them thru whatever content, for a very hefty fee.

Where I do think ZoS should step in is the variations of these "carry" transactions where the player is required to give their account UN and PW. So that the "seller" can log in to the player's account and run their character thru whatever content.
That is a terrible idea, for reasons that should be obvious.
But of course caveat emptor still applies. So if a player really wants to give a total stranger full access to their account and trust that they won't completely empty everything they have in game, including crowns, gold and items and also won't go into their ZoS account and grab whatever account information they can like email, name, address and linked payment card info...
Sure, go ahead and trust them.

But in cases like that ZoS can only act if they know about it. I should clarify that notifying them BEFORE the above example takes place would be best.
If all your things get stolen and you go to ZoS for help after IDK if they can help, or will, but personally no content\achievement or shiny-bits are worth that level of risk.

sarahthes

Join a pug trials discord and you'll have a lot more luck getting your clears as long as you pull your weight (do a reasonable amount of damage, play mechanics) and don't try to sign up for things you aren't ready for (i.e. you should clear vet Sunspire a few times and understand the basic mechanics before you sign up for a HM trainer).

You could also look for a beginner trials guild and sign up for content there and try to get into a progression group. These typically move at a slow pace through all content.

I participate in carry runs but I also lead various training runs for all tiers of content, and easy content farm runs. I know a lot of other raid leads who do the same (on PC NA). It's not an all or nothing thing.

Kiralyn2000

Arunei wrote: »

Just to clarify this matter again, since it's such a prevalent belief; CP has nothing to do with skill. CP is only an indication of time played, and even that could be argued. Just because someone has 2k CP doesn't mean anything, as those CP could have been earned doing things like master writs or just questing (especially considering things like exp scrolls and double exp events).

Yep. I've got 800+ CP, and it means very little except I've been questing/exploring/eventing since 2016.


re: titles, dyes, skins... honestly, as someone who doesn't study these things, I've no idea what any of them mean. I don't really even notice what titles people have up. So anyone who thinks they're showing off by wandering around with them? Realize that many of the people around you have no idea what it is that you're flexing.

(it was more obvious in, say, the early days of WoW, when the guy standing in the center of town with the glowing golden armor with the huge flaming shoulderpads was Obvious.™ But in a longer-running MMO, with dozens of options for shiny/glow-y/spiky/etc? It all just blurs together. That guy over there with the I Ran A Hard Trial weird looking skin doesn't stand out from the guy to his left with the I Did An Event weird looking skin. Especially since 90% of the armors barely show the skin at all. /shrug)

thorwyn

Should your barber be prohibited from selling haircuts because it is a carry run for the "no bad hair day" achievement?
Selling carry runs is a service, just like any other trading activity in the game. You are selling time (that you spent practicing the raid and of course the actual ingame time) for gold. Just like someone who picks up flowers and sells crafted potions.

But for the sake of argument, let's assume it is true. Carry runs are bad for the game and should be banned.
Let's take a look at a couple of different scenarions.

1. Suppose a friend of yours is asking you to help him get a group for vMoL because he wants that skin so much. You know that he is not ready for this trial, but why now give it a try, so you ask in guild chat for a spontaneous vMoL run and guess what: you finish the trial and your friend is happy.

2. Suppose you are in a trial progression group. Suppose it is your trial day and you are missing one DD. So you ask in guild chat and someone volunteers to help. You know that he is not ready for the trial, but the group can not find a better substitute and doesn't want to wait any longer. You finish the tiral and the substitute gets the achievement.

3. Suppose it's the very same situation as above, but this time, the volunteer happens to be a person you borrowed a couple of upgraders from in the past and you promised to pay him back some day. You know he's not ready for the trial but he says "hey, invite me and we're even".

At what point are we talking about a carry run? And how is ZOS supposed to control that?

Castagere

I wanted to do world bosses run in a zone and had max-level cp players saying they would do it for a fee. So players charging for stuff now does not surprise me.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

I dont see the correlation. You want to run vet trials, join a guild that does progression runs, and put the time in. The people that are buying runs specifically dont want to do that, so I dont see it as a detriment for those that do.

If you want to join pug trial groups in crag, dont expect to clear most vet runs. That is true without or without carry runs being sold.

DigiAngel

The only trial I've not completed is the one I started. Every other one, all pugs, have been fine. For weeks now.

Artim_X

Nah, game has always been full to the brim with peeps who'll only touch vet content for the rewards and then never again.

A counter argument could be made that the ability to profit from carrying others means that more players are willing to perform at endgame levels alongside others in order to make a profit.

Araneae6537

VaranisArano wrote: »

For a third option, you can also join a guild that runs trials.

Guilds may have role requirements for their players. This usually makes them a step up from PUGs, but also means they won't usually carry players like the run-sellers.

As for Dungeons, Groupfinder exists. If you want to PUG vet Fungal Grotto or vMoS, just queue for that specific dungeon and your group will eventually fill up. No guarantees they'll be good, but that's the PUG life. If that doesn't suit you, maybe look for a guild that's interested in dungeons?

Exactly! It may take a few tries to find the group that’s the right fit for you but it is well worth it and makes running trials way more fun!

It doesn’t harm anyone that some groups sell carries. I’ve considered it before for certain weapons but it is out of my price range and the satisfaction of eventually earning it myself has been well worth the wait and effort.

perfiction

Imo there is nothing wrong in selling carries. If someone doesn't want to 'waste' their time to git gud and all they care about is a skin/achievement/loot (for example for RP purposes or to get furnishing from achievement vendor), they just buy the carry and move on. I like the comparison to master crafters someone made before and fully agree.

plot twist: OP is Big-Ben's alt account /s

FluffWit

Castagere wrote: »

I wanted to do world bosses run in a zone and had max-level cp players saying they would do it for a fee. So players charging for stuff now does not surprise me.

In 7 years I've never seen that. They were probably just trolling you.