A response on communications

xaraan

First of all, I do think zos does a better job than some others with this; but it still falls well short of enough IMO.

Here is where I think a huge part of the problem is:

Communication doesn't only mean post an update and never return or hardly return to the post.

That's usually what I see. One of the devs posts some info, then MAYBE they respond with a "we are reading this" or whatever style update, but we don't hear anything for the longest time until patch notes are coming out or some other announcement/post is being made.

If a dev is going to take the time to make a major post that has a significant impact on the game and customers, they should do more than read the posts - they should communicate! Take time in your schedule (busy as it may be) to post a reply or search for further clarification on significant posts.

Sure, we know some people can be harsh, but feedback is feedback. Whether someone is a little mean sounding or not, if it's good advice, it's good advice and you are only hurting your self and your own product by ignoring them. Sure, if you don't want to engage with those types, it's fine, but let's not forget the flip side of toxic - the people there to speak up for you and make excuses number just as much as the ones being mean and neither probably know the whole story. The best way to encourage quality feedback is to engage with it.

Other times it feels like we are just getting lip service. Was it just a coincidence that Matt's PvP post came up within a week after a PR nightmare b/c of a clip from Rich's stream? Where was the communication concerning that outside of just locking threads? (which gives an opposite view of communication btw, no matter reasoning). And the pvp post was pretty vague, it had enough technical speak to sound like it was something serious, but past that just read like another "we are working on it" post to keep people quiet-ish for another year. When you had people on the hook to fix a problem with your product for years, more specifics and a faster time table is expected.

In the end though, it's the full engagement that's lacking.
I'm not saying you need to spend all day every day doing it, but there is plenty of opportunity for real communication when you can invest the time.
I can't think of very many posts, even on PTS forums where you are literally asking players to work for free to test your game, where the devs reply often in a topic they've made.

If someone makes a constructive post, it's you who should be talking to them about it, not some random player that jumps to your defense and doesn't know the whole story. You know the story - it's up to you to tell it.

AuraNebula

I give up. I give up on this game, I give up on this community, I just give up. So many years and I'm saddened at the actions that have been taken. Probably going to ban me now for this comment.

NettleCarrier

I think this thread in itself is proving one of my personal issues with how communication is handled. This thread has been up over a day and I guess it is a federal holiday so that's worth noting but as with most threads I see the "Staff Comments" badge next to the post and click on it just to see that it's a moderation post. They are all like this, so much so that I've just stopped looking at them as important. If I want to actually see a staff post worth paying attention to then I've got to use a third party dev tracker through Discord - there's something wrong with that.

FlopsyPrince

NettleCarrier wrote: »

I think this thread in itself is proving one of my personal issues with how communication is handled. This thread has been up over a day and I guess it is a federal holiday so that's worth noting but as with most threads I see the "Staff Comments" badge next to the post and click on it just to see that it's a moderation post. They are all like this, so much so that I've just stopped looking at them as important. If I want to actually see a staff post worth paying attention to then I've got to use a third party dev tracker through Discord - there's something wrong with that.

I wonder if today was a vacation day for them. It is not for many companies, even though it is for the Federal Government and those involved with them.

Hotdog_23

It seems ZOS opinion of the forums is it is a toxic wasteland and not a very nice place to visit.

If my vote matter or counted I say the forums should be the first place to post information. I should not have to follow a developer twitter account to learn information about something when we have and official forum. BTW I only learn something when it is posted on the forums or Website anyway.

Start a Q & A thread and answer questions once a week like someone already suggested.

Stay safe

Elsonso

NettleCarrier wrote: »

I think this thread in itself is proving one of my personal issues with how communication is handled. This thread has been up over a day and I guess it is a federal holiday so that's worth noting but as with most threads I see the "Staff Comments" badge next to the post and click on it just to see that it's a moderation post. They are all like this, so much so that I've just stopped looking at them as important. If I want to actually see a staff post worth paying attention to then I've got to use a third party dev tracker through Discord - there's something wrong with that.

If Discord is convenient, go ahead and use it. I use that on my own Discord server, as well. Otherwise, just use the one here in the forum, which will not show you the moderation comments. I am fairly sure that this is where the Discord bot gets the information to send to you.

I do agree that moderation comments should not be flagged with a Z, and it is something that has been brought up many times. I have not heard them say anything indicating that they are planning to do anything about it, though. I thought I had, but cannot find it.

Since you mentioned the holiday... If you are thinking that they will respond in this thread, you should pack a lunch for the wait. My guess is that when there is a reply, it will be a "thank you for the information". That is the usual conclusion to the ZOS portion of these conversations. I don't expect it to be different. We will continue to discuss it for a while after that, though.

When they want to make a statement, they will post an announcement and pin it, not put it in this thread.

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

It seems ZOS opinion of the forums is it is a toxic wasteland and not a very nice place to visit.

I have heard the forums described as an "echo chamber", which basically means that a few people have all the ideas, and the other people repeat them. That is not an incorrect assessment. It is a fertile ground for influencers, like all social media. If you watch closely, you can actually see this happening as it happens. It is a fascinating, and terrifying, glimpse into how our society works.

I do not think they consider it to be a "toxic wasteland", though. If that were the case, they would just close it and move to Discord, or simply not have any sort of a community forum. The moderation is an indication that they don't think that.

If anyone holds the view that the forum is a "toxic wasteland", it is the players. I can certainly see myself saying that, in the past. There are times, like right now, where it seems that way.

As an aside, the term "toxic", in reference to any ESO player or group of players, is becoming meaningless. This is due to careless overuse. It attracts attention, so influencers are using it as click bait and triggers to promote their views. It is already starting to be an indication that the person using the term doesn't have anything substantial to say. It may well be that, by this summer, it will be considered baiting on the forum.

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

Start a Q & A thread and answer questions once a week like someone already suggested.

I missed that comment.

I like the idea of a Q&A. It isn't a bad idea... but I don't think it is going to be an answer. If they do it, I expect they will quietly end the practice after a couple sessions.

The reasons are simple... (1) it takes time to do things, so questions will be asked over and over, with "no new news" answers each time, and (2) there will be too many questions where ZOS cannot say "YES" or "NO" and we will get a non-committal answer each time. Unsatisfying, on both counts.

Sylvermynx

Elsonso wrote: »

I do agree that moderation comments should not be flagged with a Z, and it is something that has been brought up many times. I have not heard them say anything indicating that they are planning to do anything about it, though. I thought I had, but cannot find it.

It was in a post by Kevin on another suggestions thread IIRC. I don't have time to look for it right now - later today after I'm back from town I'll see if I can find it.

_Zathras_

Elsonso wrote: »

I like the idea of a Q&A. It isn't a bad idea... but I don't think it is going to be an answer. If they do it, I expect they will quietly end the practice after a couple sessions.

The reasons are simple... (1) it takes time to do things, so questions will be asked over and over, with "no new news" answers each time, and (2) there will be too many questions where ZOS cannot say "YES" or "NO" and we will get a non-committal answer each time. Unsatisfying, on both counts.

Except, as I noted in my earlier post, there is a 15 year history of this being done successfully. Some of the founders of ESO were the people who organized the team that originated that community --> Dev communication platform.

If they can spend time on their social media platforms to maintain off-site communications, then time can be spent on the Official Forums as well. It just seems like they've ditched this medium in favor of another.

And, as noted many times in this thread, one of the concerns is the lack of centralization. Currently there are 4? social media outlets being used: Twitch, Discord, Twitter, and Facebook. Added to that, all the individual staff members have their own pages. While I am not interested in tallying up the Follows that would entail, plus the daily checking in to see if anything relevant was posted, any reasonable person can see just how cumbersome and fractured that communication structure (or lack thereof) currently is.

No one is saying "Abandon those medias". Rather, create a page here where all of that information is linked, where transcripts could be read, so that everyone can see what is going on at a glance.

As you also noted, there is the quality of communication, in addition to lack of engagement. The OP has some very succinct points on that, as well as a summary of some of the thoughts expressed in this thread.

Elsonso wrote: »

My guess is that when there is a reply, it will be a "thank you for the information". That is the usual conclusion to the ZOS portion of these conversations. I don't expect it to be different. We will continue to discuss it for a while after that, though.

When they want to make a statement, they will post an announcement and pin it, not put it in this thread.

Sadly, I don't think you are wrong. Maybe this week we'll see an acknowledgement. Engagement and improvements would be even better.



@ZOS_GinaBruno

Elsonso

_Zathras_ wrote: »

Elsonso wrote: »

I like the idea of a Q&A. It isn't a bad idea... but I don't think it is going to be an answer. If they do it, I expect they will quietly end the practice after a couple sessions.

The reasons are simple... (1) it takes time to do things, so questions will be asked over and over, with "no new news" answers each time, and (2) there will be too many questions where ZOS cannot say "YES" or "NO" and we will get a non-committal answer each time. Unsatisfying, on both counts.

Except, as I noted in my earlier post, there is a 15 year history of this being done successfully. Some of the founders of ESO were the people who organized the team that originated that community --> Dev communication platform.

Thanks for linking your post. I was going to go hunt it down but got distracted.

Like I said, I like the idea. I just don't think that it will work here. It might work for DAoC, but this is not DAoC and ZOS does not have the best track record with the community. That will make a Q&A a [snip] show.

I said a long while ago that ZOS created the relationship with community that we have. They tout "ESO Fam" and talk about how great the community is, but that is the community, not ZOS. With ZOS it is more like a parent-child relationship, and the children should play and not concern themselves with the affairs of the adults. My belief is that this sours the player community as different groups line up trying to get the attention of ZOS. If ZOS had taken a different track, right from the start, chances are a lot of things would be different and we would not be here talking about this, today.

Now, I also feel it is never too late, but it seems like every time ZOS starts down this path, they go a little way and then it is all...



[edited for profanity bypass]

RicAlmighty

Hotdog_23 wrote: »

It seems ZOS opinion of the forums is it is a toxic wasteland and not a very nice place to visit.

And Twitter isn't?

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

I'm not a fan of the 'world plays eso' for marketing purposes. The sponsored content element is getting really old and fast.

I've also seen phrases and wording during conferences which aren't very inspiring for a community and relate to 'business purely', so I don't really care for 'business' communication, I'm more interested in 'problem solving' communication, but I'm not sure it's on the chef's menu.

_Zathras_

Elsonso wrote: »

With ZOS it is more like a parent-child relationship, and the children should play and not concern themselves with the affairs of the adults.

Sony/Verant took this route back in the day. They came under a lot of fire for adopting that mentality.

WoW currently does it, but to an exponential degree. Everyone can see how that has panned out.

FFXIV does not, and tbh, their model of coms should be the MMO industry standard.

At the end of the day, this isn't rocket science. Thread upon thread upon thread of "hey, how can we improve?" turns all appearances of these initiatives into placebos. It just underscores how deeply the system is broken.

Crash427

Seems kinda weird. 8 years deep and still trying to figure out communication?

Also, people are defending Rich for what was said on his stream saying it's his own personal stream, but if I want to know whats actually going on I have to follow the devs personal streams/twitter/etc?

Strikes me as a bit unprofessional

SteamKitten01

Like how someone earlier in this thread commented, I would love for ZOS to have a page where they list common bugs or areas of improvement and their statuses. They don't even need to give detail or timing but vague categories like "not looking into at this time", "investigating", "cause of bug identified", "potential fix being tested", and "scheduled for implementation in an upcoming patch". Being able to view a list and see the status would be a huge improvement over having to dig through forums and twitter to see if there's any updates or even any acknowledgement of a given bug.

I'd also love it if ZOS had something better than the Dev Tracker to see when new threads are created by ZOS so that it's easy to filter out comments in threads and find just the threads that contain big announcements, especially threads that are posted in forums other than general. For example, I don't regularly go to the Combat & Character Mechanics sub forum but have a vested interest when ZOS posts a combat preview thread there. Or when an official thread about PvP is posted in the Alliance War forum.

AlnilamE

SteamKitten01 wrote: »

Like how someone earlier in this thread commented, I would love for ZOS to have a page where they list common bugs or areas of improvement and their statuses. They don't even need to give detail or timing but vague categories like "not looking into at this time", "investigating", "cause of bug identified", "potential fix being tested", and "scheduled for implementation in an upcoming patch". Being able to view a list and see the status would be a huge improvement over having to dig through forums and twitter to see if there's any updates or even any acknowledgement of a given bug.

How long would you make that list? 100 bugs? 500? 1000? What would determine their importance? How many times a bug has been reported? Or what it was filed under when reported?

I'd also love it if ZOS had something better than the Dev Tracker to see when new threads are created by ZOS so that it's easy to filter out comments in threads and find just the threads that contain big announcements, especially threads that are posted in forums other than general. For example, I don't regularly go to the Combat & Character Mechanics sub forum but have a vested interest when ZOS posts a combat preview thread there. Or when an official thread about PvP is posted in the Alliance War forum.

That would be nice. I'd also like some sort of FAQ for things that get asked a lot. Like, how many threads have we had asking for the Armory to save Mundus Stones? I know that it didn't happen right away because of technical issues, but that's said by a Dev on one of the ESO Live streams (not the actual armory announcement) and I feel like the community managers should have a blurb they can post every time someone asks that and not leave it to us to hunt down the answer just because we happened to watch that stream.

Now, that would probably *** off some people depending on what the topic is. Imagine if on every "we need an Auction House" thread, the second reply was a mod saying "We have no plans of implementing this because it doesn't fit our vision of the game economy" or something like that?

Elsonso

Crash427 wrote: »

Seems kinda weird. 8 years deep and still trying to figure out communication?

Also, people are defending Rich for what was said on his stream saying it's his own personal stream, but if I want to know whats actually going on I have to follow the devs personal streams/twitter/etc?

That is a valid concern that I also share. However, one goes where the information is. Early on in Rich's stream, there was discussion about how to get Rich-isms into a more usable form and more accessible. That ended up being players acting as "messengers" passing along what was said, with varying degrees of accuracy and editorial comments. I did that for a few questions that I was interested in, because I wanted to know the answers and felt it was best to share. I quickly realized that all that made me was the one that gets stabbed here on the forum. Metaphorically speaking. Now, if people want to know what Rich says, my suggestion is to watch his previous videos posted on his channel. I would not delay, though.

fizl101

Elsonso wrote: »

Crash427 wrote: »

Seems kinda weird. 8 years deep and still trying to figure out communication?

Also, people are defending Rich for what was said on his stream saying it's his own personal stream, but if I want to know whats actually going on I have to follow the devs personal streams/twitter/etc?

That is a valid concern that I also share. However, one goes where the information is. Early on in Rich's stream, there was discussion about how to get Rich-isms into a more usable form and more accessible. That ended up being players acting as "messengers" passing along what was said, with varying degrees of accuracy and editorial comments. I did that for a few questions that I was interested in, because I wanted to know the answers and felt it was best to share. I quickly realized that all that made me was the one that gets stabbed here on the forum. Metaphorically speaking. Now, if people want to know what Rich says, my suggestion is to watch his previous videos posted on his channel. I would not delay, though.

I honestly hope that he is able to carry on with his stream. He seems to truly enjoy playing the game he is intimately involved in. Yes as one product manager watching another there are hard questions that may not want to be (or can't be) answered, and situations like recently that obviously need to be managed and dealt with, but he genuinely seems to care and want to help the community. How the information that he is able to share or help with can be communicated more generally across the various tools such as the forums I'm not sure, but it would not be a quick job to collate it all

Elsonso

fizl101 wrote: »

I honestly hope that he is able to carry on with his stream. He seems to truly enjoy playing the game he is intimately involved in. Yes as one product manager watching another there are hard questions that may not want to be (or can't be) answered, and situations like recently that obviously need to be managed and dealt with, but he genuinely seems to care and want to help the community. How the information that he is able to share or help with can be communicated more generally across the various tools such as the forums I'm not sure, but it would not be a quick job to collate it all

I also want him to resume streaming. People think that they draw is his "leaked information", but really, it is his knowledge of the game and insights into how the game has arrived where it is that I find most interesting. He does not leak that much information. He knows the game, particularly the arenas and dungeons, and he shows tank and healer roles when he plays. Players need to see the devs playing more often.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Elsonso wrote: »

fizl101 wrote: »

I honestly hope that he is able to carry on with his stream. He seems to truly enjoy playing the game he is intimately involved in. Yes as one product manager watching another there are hard questions that may not want to be (or can't be) answered, and situations like recently that obviously need to be managed and dealt with, but he genuinely seems to care and want to help the community. How the information that he is able to share or help with can be communicated more generally across the various tools such as the forums I'm not sure, but it would not be a quick job to collate it all

I also want him to resume streaming. People think that they draw is his "leaked information", but really, it is his knowledge of the game and insights into how the game has arrived where it is that I find most interesting. He does not leak that much information. He knows the game, particularly the arenas and dungeons, and he shows tank and healer roles when he plays. Players need to see the devs playing more often.

Hey it's nice to see someone from the team playing the game (and it's not outsourced/endorsed content), but he has to keep it very light and on track with what he is proposing that evening.

Of course people are going to ask some 'unwanted' questions like in any public appearance and it's not a pleasant experience if you are a product manager.
That said, the tone is sometimes mocking, demeaning and discards some essential passive problems the community is pushing forward with their concerns.

Most of us know the company's story, their parcour through the industry, so I suppose the choice of words and actions have to be chosen carefully. He's not a forum user nor a regular player, he is the product manager.

_adhyffbjjjf12

On a positive, recent communication here and re PVP has been really good and to be applauded.

Now as an example of recent bbad communication:

Edit [October 15]

Thanks so much for your participation, patience and feedback while we experimented with only having the Deathmatch game mode available. It was important for us to run this for a few weeks to ensure we had an accurate representation of overall involvement and interest in Battlegrounds during this time.

First, it’s valuable to note the general feedback on this test was quite polarizing. While there were certainly a lot of players that liked only having Deathmatch available, there were just as many that didn’t enjoy it. A frequent complaint we saw, though, was the disappointment that we removed something that is ultimately at the core of our game: the freedom of choice. And in the case of this test, the data appeared to back that up as well. Although we initially saw a very slight bump in participation, it quickly declined and has left Battleground populations in a fairly unhealthy state.

You subsequently made a change to the queues that meant Objective based PVP was effectively almost entirely removed from the game, which is contradicting your own communication above??. You then done nothing about this for months and only recently mentioned you were looking into it. That's BAD (i.e zero) communication and also treating customers poorly. A simple acknowledgement in December explicitly calling out the issue and what you were going to do about it would have been good communication. Absolutely no need for this, you can clearly see from your metrics that objective pvp collapsed after your changes.

_Zathras_

AlnilamE wrote: »

How the information that he is able to share or help with can be communicated more generally across the various tools such as the forums I'm not sure, but it would not be a quick job to collate it all

The part I dislike about streams is the time investment, and the bloat of fluff vs content.

If you are into streams, and the person, then it is an entirely other matter. But even for people who enjoy sitting down and spending the time, it would be nice to have access to a much shorter transciption of the highlights.

That said, I have done transciptions for streams. It takes longer to do those than it does to make the stream itself. Pause, type, unpause, type some more..rewind? Did I hear that correctly? unpause.. etc.

So, I would suggest when making a stream with embedded relevant information, that person should supply notes that the playerbase can quickly and easily read.

Arunei

Huh, was the title of the thread changed? I almost missed it because I was thought it was a different one lol.

spartaxoxo

Arunei wrote: »

Huh, was the title of the thread changed? I almost missed it because I was thought it was a different one lol.

Yes. It was edited for name in the title as per the opening post edit note.

Arunei

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Arunei wrote: »

Huh, was the title of the thread changed? I almost missed it because I was thought it was a different one lol.

Yes. It was edited for name in the title as per the opening post edit note.

Hmmm, must have just happened recently then, I didn't think to check the first post.

matterandstuff

ZOS_SarahF wrote: »

Greetings all,

After removing a few off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

The irony of checking a thread about communications from ZOS because the forum indicated that someone from ZOS had responded, only to discover that it was just the above.

Please stop doing this on threads requesting that ZOS do things differently. Showing that you've read it and then just responding with this is poor communication.

spartaxoxo

matterandstuff wrote: »

ZOS_SarahF wrote: »

Greetings all,

After removing a few off topic posts, we would like to ask everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, as well as keeping things civil and constructive.

Thank you for your understanding.

The irony of checking a thread about communications from ZOS because the forum indicated that someone from ZOS had responded, only to discover that it was just the above.

Please stop doing this on threads requesting that ZOS do things differently. Showing that you've read it and then just responding with this is poor communication.

Moderators are not developers. This is not some a CM or Dev coming in and reading this and just saying that, but a customer service worker who's role is just to keep the forums clean and respectful and enforce the rules doing their job. They should really make it so that the Z doesn't appear next to their posts so as to avoid this confusion, but that's not on the mods.

Amottica

ZOS_RichLambert wrote: »

The_Lex wrote: »

Agreed. Interesting that they posted it on the website and not the forums. They won't engage people who will: (1) challenge their views, and (2) know how to play the game better than they do.

Actually, it's quite the opposite. We chose to post this on the website because it gets significantly more views than the forums and our goal here was to try and get this message out to a wide audience. It also allows us to put out the message in more than just English.

[/quote]

@VaranisArano originally posted this in this thread. It makes sense as it seems the forum itself has a very small population that frequents it. I have also noticed that they often post a thread that links an article in the main website. Doubt they do it with everything but I have seen it done with some important items.

Amottica

FlopsyPrince wrote: »

We should also have a place where we can go to find the place for regularly brought up issues. Not just pinned threads like the Overland Content one, but a literal list.

This should include commonly requested things (including things you will not do, like a Central AH). Briefly note each one in categories like "Investigating", "Not Likely", "Being Strongly Considered" etc. Be vague enough you have flexibility, but provide feedback. This would also include Quality of Life things, especially on the consoles. I am not there now, but I would probably have stayed if more had come quicker, or at least if I saw a plan to do so.

Do the same for significant bugs. Note their status. Note if you need more details, possibly including an explicit way to recreate it. Link that to where players can provide anything you might need.

This would require you start addressing longstanding ones to some extent. Yeah, you may not catch them fast, but make progress or note why not. I could give some examples, but will refrain and leave it there.

The overall theme is give people a voice. You may not always like it and you certainly won't respond in the way everyone wants, but let people know they can have a say. Suggestion boxes are good, but no one wants to keep making suggestions that are seemingly ignored!

There is such a place called the forums. There is also a search function though I find a google search to work better than the one here

In the short time I have been here, less than a year, I have seen a great many topics brought up regularly. It just seems to be far too many for Zenimax to manage. It would also not force Zenimax to start addressing anything they do not want to address or do not care for as they would be the ones managing it.

I understand being upset they do not address or add some ideas but I do not see this happening nor have I seen it happen in other games on a widespread basis and rarely on a limited basis. The reality is player interest is what keeps a thread alive and many of those threads die due to having a very limited number of people posting to them.

spartaxoxo

Amottica wrote: »

The reality is player interest is what keeps a thread alive and many of those threads die due to having a very limited number of people posting to them.

It's also important to note that a thread that has a lot of views and posts doesn't mean it has a lot of support. In fact it's generally the case that it's the topics the community is most divided on.

Ones that people overwhelming dislike tend to devolve quickly and fall away. Ones that people overwhelming support tend to get a few "good ideas, QFT, I support this" etc and then also fall away.

It's the ones where people have strong opinions on and clash that end up with the most views and posts. Both because sides form and people debate a lot, and because others enjoy the popcorn.

ZOS_GregoryV

Greetings all!

After review, we would like to remind everyone that Bashing is a violation of the Community Guidelines and is stated as follows:

• Bashing and Slanderous Comments: We do not permit the bashing of individuals (including ZeniMax employees), groups, or other companies on our forums. We believe that doing so is neither constructive nor in spirit of our game and community.

While we understand that everyone is simply saying what they feel, we do ask that all please keep the rules in mind. If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please take a few moments to review them here.

Thank you for your understanding,
-Greg-