Healing should be a separate stat? We already have that stat. It's called Magicka & Stamina.

the1andonlyskwex

Amottica wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Healers shouldn't also be tanks, tanks shouldn't heal. How we get there, let ZOS figure that out.

Whelp, there goes Warden.

As I noted just a few posts up, Zenimax seems to have blurred the lines in the trinity. The Warden makes it clear this was a conscious decision since they clearly placed a healing skill with a morph that will heal others in the Warden's tanking line.

Yea, it seems clear that this is another area Zenimax intended for the design to not restrict choices, but permit them.

Unfortunately, the result of those design decisions is that practically everyone (outside of trials) winds up as a healer-something hybrid and nobody has all that much choice about it.

Amottica

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Healers shouldn't also be tanks, tanks shouldn't heal. How we get there, let ZOS figure that out.

Whelp, there goes Warden.

As I noted just a few posts up, Zenimax seems to have blurred the lines in the trinity. The Warden makes it clear this was a conscious decision since they clearly placed a healing skill with a morph that will heal others in the Warden's tanking line.

Yea, it seems clear that this is another area Zenimax intended for the design to not restrict choices, but permit them.

Unfortunately, the result of those design decisions is that practically everyone (outside of trials) winds up as a healer-something hybrid and nobody has all that much choice about it.

It is a big reason many of us play ESO. That and the overall combat design. We do not want character building on rails which is pretty much how it is in other games.

Additionally, there is content in trials that requires players to be out of range, or even in a different area, than the healers which essentially requires them to be able to take care of themselves. I am just pointing out this is at the core of the game and utilized throughout.

the1andonlyskwex

Amottica wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Healers shouldn't also be tanks, tanks shouldn't heal. How we get there, let ZOS figure that out.

Whelp, there goes Warden.

As I noted just a few posts up, Zenimax seems to have blurred the lines in the trinity. The Warden makes it clear this was a conscious decision since they clearly placed a healing skill with a morph that will heal others in the Warden's tanking line.

Yea, it seems clear that this is another area Zenimax intended for the design to not restrict choices, but permit them.

Unfortunately, the result of those design decisions is that practically everyone (outside of trials) winds up as a healer-something hybrid and nobody has all that much choice about it.

It is a big reason many of us play ESO. That and the overall combat design. We do not want character building on rails which is pretty much how it is in other games.

Additionally, there is content in trials that requires players to be out of range, or even in a different area, than the healers which essentially requires them to be able to take care of themselves. I am just pointing out this is at the core of the game and utilized throughout.

My point is that it is on rails. Everybody is either a healer-dps hybrid (in non-trial PvE), or a healer-dps-tank hybrid (in PvP). If spell and weapon damage weren't so overloaded people might have to make some choices, resulting in greater build variety, instead of everyone just stacking SD/WD and immediately becoming the best of all worlds.

YoureWrongImRight

People do not seem to realize this that their "freedom of choice" has led to having zero choices.

divnyi

VaranisArano wrote: »

What you are asking for sounds to me like taking away the ability to self-heal effectively from players who build for tankiness or damage. That is - in order for a Stam build to use Vigor effectively, they need to build for the healing Stat, right?

Wrong. It will only hurt those who build tankiness AND damage.

I've thought about this change on how it will affect my chars - all my damage toons have pretty high pools too.
But my damage toons are of the assasin or fighter archetype, not bruiser.
And look, bruiser should not be straight up better than fighters in everything. It can be healing that would be their weakness, why not?

PvP_Exploiter

Healing should be a separate stat? We already have that stat. It's called Healing Done & Healing Take.

Fixed that for you.

Current the two most useless stats in the game, literally not used by anyone.
Nerf WD/SD & Max Stat scaling of all healing skills. Increase strength of Healing Done/Taken sources.
Maybe combine them too because I don't see the point in both existing.

OBJnoob

Healing done and healing received isn’t a stat it’s a modifier. It provides a percentage boost to heals that scale with damage. And people do use it whether they know it or not. Anyone in heavy armor, heavy attacking with a resto, wardens, dragon knights…. Just to name a few.

Amottica

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Healers shouldn't also be tanks, tanks shouldn't heal. How we get there, let ZOS figure that out.

Whelp, there goes Warden.

As I noted just a few posts up, Zenimax seems to have blurred the lines in the trinity. The Warden makes it clear this was a conscious decision since they clearly placed a healing skill with a morph that will heal others in the Warden's tanking line.

Yea, it seems clear that this is another area Zenimax intended for the design to not restrict choices, but permit them.

Unfortunately, the result of those design decisions is that practically everyone (outside of trials) winds up as a healer-something hybrid and nobody has all that much choice about it.

It is a big reason many of us play ESO. That and the overall combat design. We do not want character building on rails which is pretty much how it is in other games.

Additionally, there is content in trials that requires players to be out of range, or even in a different area, than the healers which essentially requires them to be able to take care of themselves. I am just pointing out this is at the core of the game and utilized throughout.

My point is that it is on rails. Everybody is either a healer-dps hybrid (in non-trial PvE), or a healer-dps-tank hybrid (in PvP). If spell and weapon damage weren't so overloaded people might have to make some choices, resulting in greater build variety, instead of everyone just stacking SD/WD and immediately becoming the best of all worlds.

On the end it would still be on rails but we have more variation and certainly more means for variation than antiquated games like WoW and FF14.

More importantly, this isn’t that kind of game and it’s clear that was a conscious decision.

xylena_lazarow

Amottica wrote: »

it’s clear that was a conscious decision.

Blurring the trinity is fine but you still need to balance it enough so that evenly matched fights can actually end. An evenly matched duel between optimized damage builds will only "maybe" end in this meta, and any evenly matched group battle with dedicated healers (who are also tanks) will stalemate 100% of the time. This is not fine.

Silversmith

Healing shouldn't be tied to WD/SD. You sacrifice nothing to get top end healing and damage in pvp. If they can't make a new stat for healing they should give abilities different coefficients to reduce healing effectiveness.

Master_Kas

You guys and gals counterarguing. Notice you're arguing with a player who never leaves the safety of his allies. Never alone behind enemy lines or completly solo.

Don't expect it to understand.

MEBengalsFan2001

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why shouldn’t healing be based off of magicka/stamina like other skills? It seems logical to me that a spell, for instance, would be based primarily on magic regardless of what it was for, with the additional spell damage and healing boosts representing specialization for instance. Why should healing be a completely separate stat just because some other games do that? Especially since support has become less valued in a lot of content, it’s great that we can slot healing on one bar and damage on the other, for instance. Such a change would only hurt support roles and take away our flexibility. The game is DPS centric enough as is without taking away more from tanks and healers.

Anything less than 35K magika / stamina and your healing numbers would be less than the base tool tip. The higher the better the heals. Secondly, wearing medium or heavy armor reduces your healing out by 1% per a piece.. Light armor increases healing out by 1% per a piece.

Dem_kitkats1

Amottica wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Healers shouldn't also be tanks, tanks shouldn't heal. How we get there, let ZOS figure that out.

Whelp, there goes Warden.

As I noted just a few posts up, Zenimax seems to have blurred the lines in the trinity. The Warden makes it clear this was a conscious decision since they clearly placed a healing skill with a morph that will heal others in the Warden's tanking line.

Yea, it seems clear that this is another area Zenimax intended for the design to not restrict choices, but permit them.

Unfortunately, the result of those design decisions is that practically everyone (outside of trials) winds up as a healer-something hybrid and nobody has all that much choice about it.

It is a big reason many of us play ESO. That and the overall combat design. We do not want character building on rails which is pretty much how it is in other games.

Additionally, there is content in trials that requires players to be out of range, or even in a different area, than the healers which essentially requires them to be able to take care of themselves. I am just pointing out this is at the core of the game and utilized throughout.

My point is that it is on rails. Everybody is either a healer-dps hybrid (in non-trial PvE), or a healer-dps-tank hybrid (in PvP). If spell and weapon damage weren't so overloaded people might have to make some choices, resulting in greater build variety, instead of everyone just stacking SD/WD and immediately becoming the best of all worlds.

On the end it would still be on rails but we have more variation and certainly more means for variation than antiquated games like WoW and FF14.

More importantly, this isn’t that kind of game and it’s clear that was a conscious decision.

What is this variety that we have now that I'm missing? I'm genuinely curious.

maxjapank

I, for one, am tired of people messing with healing. I've been healing ever since this game began, and I've seen continuous nerfs and changes made. Healing is in a good place. It always was. If anything should change, it should be more conscious choice between sustain and power. There are so many sets that are unused now. And as a healer, you feel forced to wear either Olorime or SPC as one set.

divnyi

How do you know that healing is in a good place if you play healer nonstop? You can only say that if you are on the other side and killing players that healstack.

maxjapank

divnyi wrote: »

How do you know that healing is in a good place if you play healer nonstop? You can only say that if you are on the other side and killing players that healstack.

Did I say that I have never played anything other than healing? You are reaching for stuff that isn't there, op. [snip]

Edited to remove baiting commnets]

Amottica

Dem_kitkats1 wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Amottica wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Healers shouldn't also be tanks, tanks shouldn't heal. How we get there, let ZOS figure that out.

Whelp, there goes Warden.

As I noted just a few posts up, Zenimax seems to have blurred the lines in the trinity. The Warden makes it clear this was a conscious decision since they clearly placed a healing skill with a morph that will heal others in the Warden's tanking line.

Yea, it seems clear that this is another area Zenimax intended for the design to not restrict choices, but permit them.

Unfortunately, the result of those design decisions is that practically everyone (outside of trials) winds up as a healer-something hybrid and nobody has all that much choice about it.

It is a big reason many of us play ESO. That and the overall combat design. We do not want character building on rails which is pretty much how it is in other games.

Additionally, there is content in trials that requires players to be out of range, or even in a different area, than the healers which essentially requires them to be able to take care of themselves. I am just pointing out this is at the core of the game and utilized throughout.

My point is that it is on rails. Everybody is either a healer-dps hybrid (in non-trial PvE), or a healer-dps-tank hybrid (in PvP). If spell and weapon damage weren't so overloaded people might have to make some choices, resulting in greater build variety, instead of everyone just stacking SD/WD and immediately becoming the best of all worlds.

On the end it would still be on rails but we have more variation and certainly more means for variation than antiquated games like WoW and FF14.

More importantly, this isn’t that kind of game and it’s clear that was a conscious decision.

What is this variety that we have now that I'm missing? I'm genuinely curious.

I never used the word variety so I am not sure why you are asking me this question.

Noctus

pfff didnt see that u allready made a thread about this u are rly active on forum.

ur right about this.

the problem is that offense is also making the defense better ill just post what i said on the thread i made.
sorry for beeing lazy .

---

offense means defense if u mean heals. so all players usually go for 1 tanky set to get up their defense to around 30 k res and hp to 30 k and 1 offense set.

now usually this way of building would have the flaw of lacking in heals so it will not get 1 shot but it wont survive forever.

but the way the game is designed with the offense stats boosting heals..... this build can now survive for a very long time and still able to kill people that arent build like that.

this seems to force ppl into certain playstyles that put some classes more in advantage than others. but its not the balance which is my problem here its all those stalemates and 1 vs x happening through the fact i mentioned.

---

the reason why we are in a burst meta are heals scaling of offense ending up in 2 ppl not beeing able to kill each other unless lag or someone loosing focus. by introducing another stat we would add another dimension into pvp.

for further detail 30 k hp has proven to be that magic number of not getting killed by suprise its also easy to reach buff food etc. so no sacrifice in offense needed.

resistance is more tricky but most ppl have 25+ k by just mayor defense buff and u dont need much res when u allready sitting at 30 k hp just go into offense stats for those heals.

Solariken

Hot take - what if instead of changing the way healing scales....

Make ally healing get mitigated by spell resist and crit resist just like damage does? Wouldn't that balance damage/healing while also making sense?

If I stack boons to resist enemy spells and critical strikes, maybe it should come with the bane of reduced incoming healing?

Edit1: this would also make healing more challenging in PvE, which is what a lot of players have been asking for.
Edit2: self heals not affected.

divnyi

@Solariken Bretons would like to have a word with you

But jokes aside, would change nothing. Don't stack armors? You die in smallest burst. Stack armors? You heal through AoE HoT stacks, just like before. Will not hurt ball groups, will wreck 1vX and zergs even harder. BG balance won't change a lot if you don't affect self-heals.

divnyi

But the more I think about resource pool scaling, the more I understand that there should be direct diminishing returns here.

Like, x5 progression until 25k, x2 progression until 35k and x1 up from that.

Because we have just 2 classes that boost max magica with skill passive part. And I tested - it's not that hard to push for 50k magica and 30k HP with ~28-30k armor.

the1andonlyskwex

Solariken wrote: »

Hot take - what if instead of changing the way healing scales....

Make ally healing get mitigated by spell resist and crit resist just like damage does? Wouldn't that balance damage/healing while also making sense?

If I stack boons to resist enemy spells and critical strikes, maybe it should come with the bane of reduced incoming healing?

Edit1: this would also make healing more challenging in PvE, which is what a lot of players have been asking for.
Edit2: self heals not affected.

So you basically want to eliminate the healer role. No thanks.

Blanket nerfing all non-self heals just nerfs healers more and pushes people to rely on self heals. The current problems with healing have nothing to do with healers being too strong, and everything to do with the fact that DD and tank heals, including/especially self heals, are too strong.

divnyi

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The current problems with healing have nothing to do with healers being too strong, and everything to do with the fact that DD and tank heals, including/especially self heals, are too strong.

There are two separate problems actually:

1. HoT stacking from healers and semi-healers.
2. Tanks that heal. DDs that selfheal was never a problem, DDs die to burst.

the1andonlyskwex

divnyi wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

The current problems with healing have nothing to do with healers being too strong, and everything to do with the fact that DD and tank heals, including/especially self heals, are too strong.

There are two separate problems actually:

1. HoT stacking from healers and semi-healers.
2. Tanks that heal. DDs that selfheal was never a problem, DDs die to burst.

Sort of.

HoT stacking from healers isn't really a problem because there aren't that many healers (and adding more healers sacrifices too much outgoing damage).

HoT stacking from DDs with a single group heal is a huge problem, and this is what I assume you're referring to with the term "semi-healers". Nerfing all cross-healing would fix this, but it would also nerf dedicated healers (which are already regarded as unnecessary), while splitting healing from damage would also work as a solution.

Self healing by pure tanks is a huge problem, but it's mostly driven by health-scaling heals, so it's kind-of separate from this thread.

Self healing by pure DDs isn't a huge problem in PvP because of their susceptibility to burst, but it is a huge problem in PvE because it makes dedicated healers unnecessary for most content. Pure DDs can easily build for enough passive/background self-healing to make a dedicated healer unnecessary (largely because PvE damage is usually either very small, or an avoidable one-shot).

Lastly (and perhaps most importantly), self healing by tank/DD hybrids is a huge problem. Because of the way stats are distributed across gear, it's pretty easy to build for both high health/mitigation (armor) and high weapon/spell damage (weapons and jewelry). The result is that tank/DD hybrids have high burst mitigation, high damage, and high healing all in a single build. There are two potential fixes for this. One is splitting healing from damage, and the other is redistributing stats across gear types so that stacking SD/WD requires significant health/mitigation sacrifices.

Minno

I agree, having stats do different things is healthy for an MMO, especially one with such a huge RPG history as the elder scrolls franchise.
For ESO, it is frustrating watching power have a much stronger aspect on offense and healing, especially since other MMO's fell into that trap of pushing power stats in reference to dmg/heal roles. If I had to put on the dev hat, here is what I would do:

For the three main stats:
- remove dmg/healing and mag/stam entirely as a stat you dump hard points into. Fatigue = stamina pool. intellect stat boosts overall mag pool. Endurance boosts health pool. But they also do other things, for example, replace health/mag/stam with the attribute system from older elder scrolls games:
- str = boosts dmg of maces/swords/fists, one of the stats to increase the space you can carry, and helps increase fatigue.
- int = boosts the effectiveness of alchemy, enchanting, lockpicking, conjuration spells (pets or summon, you can pick and choose). Boosts your overall magika pool.
- willpower = increases mag recovery, resist magic based effects, helps increase max fatigue (heavy attacks use fatigue as well as sprint/dodge/block), helps boost effectiveness of certain spells (destruction, alterations, restoration you can pick and choose here. You can also throw destruction over to int if you need more balance).
- agil = boost bow dmg and daggers, sneak effectiveness, helps boost fatigue, boosts medium armor
- speed = boosts your, well, speed lol. Also boosts effectiveness of light armor.
- endurance = increases your health, helps boosts fatigue, increase effectiveness of block and heavy armor, helps boost carry space
- personality = increases effectiveness of talking. Mages guild and fighters guild passives can be thrown here. Also can help make items cheaper (maybe reduces guild store fees, cheaper repairs, etc). Increase bank space and gold caps. Can include bribes and thief guild passives here too. Also it helps boost the effectiveness of illusion based magic, so things like silence or paralyze or invisibility (basically nightblade spells though gear sets have a silence too I think, you can bundle a bunch of stuff since none of our magic is organized into schools yet). Boosts crafting effectiveness.
- luck = makes you lucky. Boosts disease resist, makes traps fail randomly, maybe spells miss you or dots fall off more. can have fun with this stat for combat. Dodge chance, shields getting stronger, turning minor buffs into major, etc.

Then have these changes impact your gear/passive selection. So if you have 5 light armor and get 4,695 spell pen, having maybe alot into speed stat increases your light armor passives/talents by 20%. So your pen becomes 5,634. But I would also lock the amount of points you can stack so you can't get every stat or have it stop at a point and let class/race pickup the rest so each combination of those has a place to shine in the system.

I would also cap your passive/skill allocation so you have to pick passives and spells; you have enough to fully allocated into 1-1.5 of a single tree and then half of a second but completely lose out on the third tree. Make players make more substantial decisions on their characters.

For the 2 main power types:
- remove power from the game entirely. They polarize classes and builds (like builds that just stack 7k power and GCD chunks of health in pvp.)
- put all the dmg and healing into the new stat system above and then have other % based buffs through gear or specific classes.

This has the most potential to bring back interesting RPG aspects to the game that is increasing feeling homogenized compared to other elder scrolls games (including skyrim which was arguable the poster child for such a homogenization). You now have 3-4 stats you need to boost effectiveness of combat related things and more stats to help buff crafters/explorers/thieves/killers/etc..

Though IDK how the new CP fits into this either. Could just fold in CP into the new stat system and cap it at 60 points. So your main stats are 60 then whatever was CP adds another 60. and your class/race combination adds more points (not 60 though). I haven't thought of that as much.

divnyi

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

Self healing by pure DDs isn't a huge problem in PvP because of their susceptibility to burst, but it is a huge problem in PvE because it makes dedicated healers unnecessary for most content. Pure DDs can easily build for enough passive/background self-healing to make a dedicated healer unnecessary (largely because PvE damage is usually either very small, or an avoidable one-shot).

I don't think this is possible to fix by changes in mechanics. Only maybe possible to fix by introducing more DPS on players in newer dungeons.

Urzigurumash

@divnyi

Looks like I was wrong about what I said regarding skill co-efficients, you are right that the vast majority appear to be right around the 10.5 ratio. I never noticed the ratio is right there on the co-efficients page. Still, seems to me like the few specs that can compete by stacking Resource would make out way ahead of the rest for any PvP without a Healer - whatever the reasons.

What are the downsides to disassociating Damage Skills from Resource? Stacking HP to the utmost and trying to deal damage has always been garbage and it still would be, nothing can make up for how terrible it is to play with 15k Resource.

It goes without saying of course that none of this would be good for PvE? Certainly it would be massively disruptive.

So can the general stated goal be achieved through Battlespirit? I know we all like to see big tooltips but let's be honest - damage could be toned down a bit too. As we've gone over many times on this forum there's a reason everybody is trying to get 30k HP and 30k Resists and it's not just because Healing scales with Offensive Stats, or at least I don't think it is. I'm well aware that playing a Glass Cannon is vastly inferior to playing a Brawler at the moment, so please don't think I suggest a reduction of damage because I have a problem with gankers, etc., more the opposite really. That's a separate discussion but gets to the point of whether the Battlespirit modifiers should be changed again before drastic changes like those recommended in this thread are made.

divnyi

Urzigurumash wrote: »

It goes without saying of course that none of this would be good for PvE? Certainly it would be massively disruptive.

It won't, they are 64 mag/stam except tanks, which use HP%-based heals almost always.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Stacking HP to the utmost and trying to deal damage has always been garbage and it still would be, nothing can make up for how terrible it is to play with 15k Resource.

You are very very far from being right. 15k resource pools are easily manageable if you have enough sustain. Burst attack on resources in not a thing, burst attack on HP is a thing.

Urzigurumash

So a Healer in Olorime would suffer no reduction to their Healing output, and would gain no Healing by swapping Olorime for Crafty Alfiq?

Ok fine when I say "garbage" what I meant was "sub-optimal". Playing with less than 25k Stam wasn't even optimal during the unscaled Chokethorn-Syvarra's-Crimson StamDen meta - in my opinion anyhow. These days I don't see anybody playing with more than around 32k HP besides True Tanks.

Anyhow, this balance struck on scaled procs wouldn't be achieved for skills by just disassociating Healing from the Damage stat, Damage skills would also have to be disassociated from the Resource stat. Either seems unnecessarily punitive to PvE Healers / Solo Arena builds to me. So can something similar be achieved through Battlespirit?

Or, can the overall stated goal of balance be achieved indirectly through something entirely different? Leaving Brawlers at their current Power in every respect, but restoring some of the Power Gankers had a few patches ago? Overall I think NB is scoring the least amount of points in High MMR BGs on Xbox NA. Both Sorcs are doing fine however.

ealdwin

Urzigurumash wrote: »

....Anyhow, this balance struck on scaled procs wouldn't be achieved for skills by just disassociating Healing from the Damage stat, Damage skills would also have to be disassociated from the Resource stat. Either seems unnecessarily punitive to PvE Healers / Solo Arena builds to me. So can something similar be achieved through Battlespirit?....

Agree on this point. Battlespirit should always be the first option for balancing damage/healing in PVP, rather than the kind of wide-sweeping changes proposed that would affect PVE as well. Perhaps more nuanced adjustments are required in Battlespirit rather than just Damage/Healing, such as individual tweaks for Direct Damage vs DoT Damage and Healing Done vs Healing Taken? I'm just more inclined towards smaller tweaks than the usual nerf-hammer balancing that usually occurs.