Healing should be a separate stat? We already have that stat. It's called Magicka & Stamina.

divnyi

It is a mechanic on proc sets already, and in clearly proven to be balanced.
You can't go with 35k HP, stack regens so you don't care about pools and stack WD/SD to be able to heal via proc sets.
You need to be an actual healer or at least squishy DPS to use heal sets.

It's time to do the same to the skills. Plain and simple.

xDeusEJRx

I honestly agree tbh, healing needs a clear rework and damage ceiling in this game is high. If all the damage was offloaded into max stat we could see the damage ceiling significantly decreased which makes barrier to entry much better. Cause in 2021 lots of emphasis was put on WD/SD and lots of abilities reworked to focus less on max pool and more on WD/SD and pen. To the point where pool has almost been phased out in most builds.

Even if it was hybrid dependent on damage and max pool as a test to see how it would transition the healing power

Araneae6537

Why shouldn’t healing be based off of magicka/stamina like other skills? It seems logical to me that a spell, for instance, would be based primarily on magic regardless of what it was for, with the additional spell damage and healing boosts representing specialization for instance. Why should healing be a completely separate stat just because some other games do that? Especially since support has become less valued in a lot of content, it’s great that we can slot healing on one bar and damage on the other, for instance. Such a change would only hurt support roles and take away our flexibility. The game is DPS centric enough as is without taking away more from tanks and healers.

divnyi

Araneae6537 wrote: »

Why shouldn’t healing be based off of magicka/stamina like other skills? It seems logical to me that a spell, for instance, would be based primarily on magic regardless of what it was for, with the additional spell damage and healing boosts representing specialization for instance.

All that, except remove spell damage from healing power calculation.

Thing is, it's so easy to stack SD and buff it that ppl just go with dumping attributes in health, and increasing sustain so bar size is never the issue.

After they do it, they have maxHP toughness - so it's not ez to burst, backbar healings with resto, and frontbar damage combos. All in one. I even see NBs like that, and yes, they gank.

If healing would be scaled with Magicka only, such build will have problems with healing. Toughness and sustain and average damage, but no healing = fair.

Dedicated healer? Sure, but he will also have toughness problems if he wants to heal at decent rate. He can stack armors, he can stack mitigations, but ultimately he will never be as tough as average fighter, and will be the weakest links (as they should be, because you can't kill a team with healer healing it).

Brrrofski

And empower bigger groups in pvp? No thanks.

divnyi

Brrrofski wrote: »

And empower bigger groups in pvp? No thanks.

Empower build variety. 3 ppl group of 2 dds and 1 healer isn't big group.

Brrrofski

divnyi wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

And empower bigger groups in pvp? No thanks.

Empower build variety. 3 ppl group of 2 dds and 1 healer isn't big group.

Exactly.

So those three people would have rubbish heals without a healer. So they have to give up one damage dealer for a healer.

Meanwhile 12 man groups can afford to have multiple dedicated healers.

And what about solo players? I wouldn't be able to do anything without a healer because I'd have terrible heals.

A change like that would alienate a LOT of players and mean pvp would have to be played as a ball group or nothing.

divnyi

Brrrofski wrote: »

And what about solo players?

Imagine coming to any other MMORPG and requesting the ability for solo player to be able to effectively play against big group

Yes, you would at least need a small group to cover all roles.
The rules will be same for everyone, if you can't heal as DD it means enemy DDs can't heal themselves too. Can dispatch stray players faster, can kill healers first and then the rest of the group. Lots of new possibilities.

Urzigurumash

I agree with the general premise that this would resolve some lingering and tenacious imbalances, but I don't think this should be considered for quite some time, because unless all damaging skills were changed to strictly scale from Damage instead of Resource, this change would inject some new imbalance, since not all damaging skills' co-efficients are equally balanced between Damage and Resource. I.e., classes which can do appreciable damage by stacking Resource would gain a significant advantage over classes more dependent on the Damage stat.

Since Class Balance is the best it's been in years (from my view), I think most changes should be constrained to the Battlespirit percentile modifiers, for now.

However it's not like I've conducted some broad analysis of this inequivalence in co-efficients, perhaps this matters less than I think.

divnyi

Urzigurumash wrote: »

classes which can do appreciable damage by stacking Resource would gain a significant advantage over classes more dependent on the Damage stat.

Here is the tierlist of current builds that scale with max pools:
1. Magsorc.
2. That's all, literally. No second place here. Just magsorc.

It is a combination of:
1. Another shield ability, so it's possible to doubleshield.
2. Bound Armor that gives huge mana%, combined with inner light leads to biggest mana pools.

I'd argue that even if magsorc would abuse this to the max, it won't rapidly become much better. Shields already scale from max magica only, and it's not like magica-based heals were bad - problem of magsorc is that you lack bar space to put all the good skills together, and burst healing in sorc requires to be doublebarred.

If I'm wrong, it should be fairly easy to adjust outliers.

Urzigurumash wrote: »

since not all damaging skills' co-efficients are equally balanced between Damage and Resource.

Uh, 10.5 Stamina/Magica equals 1 WD/SD as far as **all** damage skills concerned.

When you boost WD, you have +20% boost in every class and +10% unique class boost, and some occasional bonuses here and there, like fighters guild passive or sorc passive.

When you boost pools, the options are very limited, and I don't think you can boost more than by 15% in best case scenario.

Stamina/Magica sets can never compete with WD/SD in terms of damage bonus it provides. WD/SD wins hands up.

Brrrofski

divnyi wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

And what about solo players?

Imagine coming to any other MMORPG and requesting the ability for solo player to be able to effectively play against big group

Yes, you would at least need a small group to cover all roles.
The rules will be same for everyone, if you can't heal as DD it means enemy DDs can't heal themselves too. Can dispatch stray players faster, can kill healers first and then the rest of the group. Lots of new possibilities.

Well this game has functioned like that since it was launched.

So because other MMOs don't offer that, this game should now alienate people who like running solo or small groups, so everyone has to play as a ball group?

Cyrodill would be stale and offer one type of play.

BGs would never take place because less people like playing as healer. And you'd be screwed if you got a rubbish one.

Duels would be non existent.

No thanks. Good thing that ZOS will never listen to this suggestion.

Urzigurumash

divnyi wrote: »

Uh, 10.5 Stamina/Magica equals 1 WD/SD as far as **all** damage skills concerned.

No I don't think it does, otherwise wouldn't all skills have the same co-efficient?

As for whether it would only give an advantage to MagSorc, that's what I mean when I said I haven't conducted a broad analysis for how significant this advantage would be, but it seems Class Balance is tremendously fickle. There was that one single patch in this game's history where StamSorc was the FotM, MagDK was probably the least played class just a patch ago, etc.

Tremendously fickle, and for some of us, tremendously precious.

divnyi

Brrrofski wrote: »

BGs would never take place because less people like playing as healer. And you'd be screwed if you got a rubbish one.

Same as now.

Brrrofski wrote: »

Duels would be non existent.

Why? If anything, duel balance would be better because now stacking HP would have a consequence of lower healing, and players would be able to outdps tanky players with min-maxed fighters (as it should be).

Iriidius

Max Stamina was already worse than weapon damage stacking with old cp system, after they removed 20% max stamina/magicka/health bonus it is seen as almost worthless by many. Max HP is still needed because it cant be replaced as easily as max Stamina(by stam regen and weapon damage). If Stamina was buffed by 20-30% stamina stacking would be viable again and people would have to sacrrifice more if they use hp attribute points and glyphs.
But i dont like the idea to make healing scale only with max magicka and stamina. I already didnt liked the idea of proc sets scaling. It seems like nobody except healers wears healing sets scaling with max magicka/stamina anymore at all and you also cant wear sets like cyrodiils crest and master s&b on a 30k hp char anymore because you i dont have 44k hp you get lower values. If a few proc sets are too strong then these sets should have been nerfed instead of making all proc sets, also the weaker ones that werent a problem, scale with stats. There are still more players wearing proc sets in Cyrodiil than before update 26/27. Maybe some heal skills also shouldnt scale, dark deal and critical surge are scaling with nothing.
Playing Solo is already difficult enaugh and groups with healer already have a big advantage. Making solo players healing weaker would push many of them out of Cyrodiil. On Blackreach and Imperial City PC EU there are never PUGs on EP side so you cant even play in group if you dont have friends online.

divnyi

@Iriidius I think most here would agree that proc set scaling was a good move rather than bad move. I remember time with unscaled procs oh too well - insane baseline dot damage everyone was running, basically forcing into max toughness builds.

Nobody except healers run healing sets now because you can heal with skills. You will run sets that provide extra healing if this change hits, because skills won't heal enough.

Alchimiste1

This would drastically change the fundamentals of pvp in this game and incentivize large ball group gameplay with many healers. This is a big NO from me

the1andonlyskwex

I'm only okay with this if damage stops scaling with max mag/stamina.

Alchimiste1

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I'm only okay with this if damage stops scaling with max mag/stamina.

you guys are literally trying to force everyone into one role. This is ridiculous. Its what makes eso unique

the1andonlyskwex

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I'm only okay with this if damage stops scaling with max mag/stamina.

you guys are literally trying to force everyone into one role. This is ridiculous. Its what makes eso unique

I agree that it's a nerf to hybrid roles, and I like being able to play a DPS/healer hybrid as a way to add value to the healer role. On the other hand, DPS builds having strong heals (along with tanks having health-scaling heals) is one of the main reasons healers need to do non-healing things to add value to groups.

I think I would prefer wholesale changes to PvE encounter design (more enemy damage, fewer one-shot mechanics), but better dividing the roles is another reasonable way to make healers more useful (and it's a lot easier to implement and helps PvP too).

For PvP specifically, battle spirit makes dedicated healers kind of weak, but it's necessary because there are so many non-healers with strong heals. Splitting the scaling would allow healers to have stronger heals without causing overall healing to become excessive.

ealdwin

I keep flipping between agreeing and disagreeing. I see the benefits in changing healing to only scale from Max Resource, but also the downsides.

Perhaps, rather than a hard cut immediately, the forumlas could be weighted differently. Increase the importance of Max Magicka/Stamina by 5-10% and decrease the importance of Spell/Weapon Damage by 5-10% and see how it works out?

Not to get too far off of the specific topic, but an alternate idea would be an overall ~5-10% nerf to heals and a ~10-15% buff to sources of % healing done (such as the Powered trait). Something that wouldn't cut too hard into self-survival in PVE and PVP instances, but would require investing in healing a bit more for more powerful heals.

The effect on races should also be considered when looking at the scaling of heals (and/or damage). With some races built for damage and others for sustain, an immediate hard cut following the proc-set scaling design would mean some races would fall a bit behind in usefulness as damage dealers or healers.

Just some thoughts.

Ragnaroek93

So basically rework a core mechanic in the game which has worked for 7 years and screw everybody who doesn't play in a group with a healer. No thanks.

YoureWrongImRight

It is funny how people are saying that the current format has mechanics that work.... they don't.

As if BG's doesn't have problems now? You have teams of 4 straight DPS magplars that are basically unkillable because they can all spam 15-20k heals on each other despite having put zero of their build into healing.

Cyrodil would be stale and full of zergs?... It already is...

How does it break dueling to have somebody actually emerge as the victor within a reasonable amount of time instead of just smashing each other for 10 minutes? Pretty sure every other MMO I have played had an active dueling community without having such high self healing power that the fight lasted for 10-15 minutes.

SkaraMinoc

This would kill Mag Sorc. It was literally designed to support a hybrid damage/healer playstyle. High burst combo damage and strong Matriarch heals. Stam Sorc was an afterthought. If you change the way spell damage and max magicka work, ZOS would need to completely redesign the Sorcerer skill lines.

I don't think this is a good idea.

YoureWrongImRight

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

This would kill Mag Sorc. It was literally designed to support a hybrid damage/healer playstyle. High burst combo damage and strong Matriarch heals. Stam Sorc was an afterthought. If you change the way spell damage and max magicka work, ZOS would need to completely redesign the Sorcerer skill lines.

I don't think this is a good idea.

Do you even run Matriarch? lol

The healing of mag sorc would still be strong... Based on his suggestion they would be the best hybrid damage/healer playstyle in the game.

Cutting down dps healing by even 50% would not make it weak, it would still be strong. Because right now it's literally insane.

Dem_kitkats1

Yes healing definitely needs to be separated from damage absolutely. Though it is tricky to connect it to stam and mag pools as some classes would have a much easier time implementing this than others. Although, I don't think it would be that hard to rework a bit.

Alchimiste1 wrote: »

the1andonlyskwex wrote: »

I'm only okay with this if damage stops scaling with max mag/stamina.

you guys are literally trying to force everyone into one role. This is ridiculous. Its what makes eso unique

The way it is now, with healing connected to SD/WD, players are forced to play one role. You have the option to play a Hybrid DPS toon and that's it.

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

So basically rework a core mechanic in the game which has worked for 7 years and screw everybody who doesn't play in a group with a healer. No thanks.

People are forgetting that this is an MMO and team play is important. So, yes as a solo player you are at a disadvantage. I don't understand how you don't think you're at a disadvantage now without a healer. It's practically impossible to fight large groups with healers, as you have hybrid DPS toons able to stack massive heals on top of it. With OPS suggestion you would still be able to 1vX stragglers the same as now if that is your concern. In fact, it would probably be easier as a skilled player.

Brrrofski wrote: »

Cyrodill would be stale and offer one type of play.

BGs would never take place because less people like playing as healer. And you'd be screwed if you got a rubbish one.

Duels would be non existent.

Cyrodiil is stale as it is now and that is partly why the population is so low. Running around as only hybrid dps toons, whether it be solo or in groups is only one type of play. Chasing and smashing eachother endlessly, ignoring tanks and healers is not any kind of diverse play.

BGs is like that now but worse. Premades are still as powerful as ever, but now you can't even hope to kill their healer as every toon has powerful off healing. If you're the only team without a healer you're practically screwed as it is now anyway. Even without healers on teams you're at a disadvantage against a team of DD magplars or magDKs throwing out large heals because it's free with their damage. Less people like playing healers because we've overpowered the role of hybrid DDs. Why play Healer when DD is more effective in every facet of the game?

Beardimus

Brrrofski wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

And what about solo players?

Imagine coming to any other MMORPG and requesting the ability for solo player to be able to effectively play against big group

Yes, you would at least need a small group to cover all roles.
The rules will be same for everyone, if you can't heal as DD it means enemy DDs can't heal themselves too. Can dispatch stray players faster, can kill healers first and then the rest of the group. Lots of new possibilities.

Well this game has functioned like that since it was launched.

So because other MMOs don't offer that, this game should now alienate people who like running solo or small groups, so everyone has to play as a ball group?

Cyrodill would be stale and offer one type of play.

BGs would never take place because less people like playing as healer. And you'd be screwed if you got a rubbish one.

Duels would be non existent.

No thanks. Good thing that ZOS will never listen to this suggestion.

@Brrrofski is spot on here. The last thing we need is bigger PvP groups and stale play for small scale / solo. It's the only decent part of PvP.

SkaraMinoc

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

Do you even run Matriarch? lol

I do run Matriarch.

Two points I'm trying to illustrate:

1) Removing both spell damage and max magicka from the healing calculation will nerf Sorcerer to the point they no longer meet the original class design which is a damage/healer hybrid. Remember that Stam Sorc was added later on.
2) Removing only spell damage from the healing calculation while still allowing max magicka to boost heals will strongly nerf Mag Sorc. There's a reason the top Mag Sorc players run spell damage. Max magicka has been a weak source of damage for a very long time. It's also a very weak source of healing as well.

The most common Mag Sorc build, Crafty + DDF + AG + 1x Trainee w/ monster set of choice, is one of the weakest Mag Sorc builds for competitive battlegrounds. Attempting to play a damage/healer hybrid with a max magicka build using Necropotence is going to be very weak for both damage and heals.

Here's my last 10 games at the top of MMR.



My max magicka w/ Sugar Skulls is 29k.

YoureWrongImRight

Beardimus wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

And what about solo players?

Imagine coming to any other MMORPG and requesting the ability for solo player to be able to effectively play against big group

Yes, you would at least need a small group to cover all roles.
The rules will be same for everyone, if you can't heal as DD it means enemy DDs can't heal themselves too. Can dispatch stray players faster, can kill healers first and then the rest of the group. Lots of new possibilities.

Well this game has functioned like that since it was launched.

So because other MMOs don't offer that, this game should now alienate people who like running solo or small groups, so everyone has to play as a ball group?

Cyrodill would be stale and offer one type of play.

BGs would never take place because less people like playing as healer. And you'd be screwed if you got a rubbish one.

Duels would be non existent.

No thanks. Good thing that ZOS will never listen to this suggestion.

@Brrrofski is spot on here. The last thing we need is bigger PvP groups and stale play for small scale / solo. It's the only decent part of PvP.

Please explain how you can make game mechanics that make sense where more people do not have a statistical advantage over less people.

Basically what this boils down to is more experienced players want as many advantages as possible to dunk on newer players. There is no possible way to explain why in a situation where you have 10 players vs 2 players that the 2 players should be on equal footing with 10, it would make absolutely no sense.

You discourage large groups from forming by limiting the rewards they receive for doing so, not by changing actual game mechanics to support solo play over group play.

Even just from a logical perspective as a business, what do you think they care about as a company? Keeping 10 newer players around, or keeping 1 guy around happy who wants to dunk on them? People are not going to continue playing with things the way they are, people load into PvP get frustrated chasing 1 guy around a tower getting bursted down in 1 second, and they log off and just never come back.

People keep saying "oh it's just a learn to play issue", "git gud". Don't worry they are going to learn to play... a different game entirely. Why do you think everyone jumped ship so fast when New World came out? People are sick of it the way it is.

divnyi

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

2) Removing only spell damage from the healing calculation while still allowing max magicka to boost heals will strongly nerf Mag Sorc. There's a reason the top Mag Sorc players run spell damage. Max magicka has been a weak source of damage for a very long time. It's also a very weak source of healing as well.

Max magica allows to stack very fat shields and do good damage at the same time. Know a couple of players that played that in different metas, it always works good.

Here's my last 10 games at the top of MMR.

Isn't it the exact reason to do this change? 31k HP with those KDA and damage/healing stats is literally everything in one build.

SkaraMinoc

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

2) Removing only spell damage from the healing calculation while still allowing max magicka to boost heals will strongly nerf Mag Sorc. There's a reason the top Mag Sorc players run spell damage. Max magicka has been a weak source of damage for a very long time. It's also a very weak source of healing as well.

Max magica allows to stack very fat shields and do good damage at the same time. Know a couple of players that played that in different metas, it always works good.

Here's my last 10 games at the top of MMR.

Isn't it the exact reason to do this change? 31k HP with those KDA and damage/healing stats is literally everything in one build.

It's not everything. My damage and healing are terrible. 1.2 million damage and 600k healing is very low.

Mag Sorc's primary role is securing kills with Endless Fury and Bloodthirsty which is almost 4x stronger than Arcane. That's how you see 7-10k furies and that's why my kills are high, comparitively.

A Mag Sorc without a teammate applying pressure (e.g. DK w/ dots) is not nearly as effective.

The Critical Heal badge pads my score significantly. 7500 heal = 100 points

Personally, I think Mag Sorc heal mage is in a good place. I don't feel overpowered nor do I feel weak. I have to constantly apply pressure or risk staying on the defensive. I still destroyed by some players running 2x damage sets. Managing burst combos, stealing kills w/ Fury, keeping your pet alive (which has no "Stay Here" command), and healing teammates while keeping self buffs active. It's very demanding, mechanically, and requires technical expertise.

YoureWrongImRight

We are seriously at the point now where guys are saying that ~750k healing (not including your self heals) by just using matriarch is BAD on a hybrid dps build.

Do you not see how ridiculous this is? so if you were doing GOOD what would it be? 1.5M x 4 people? So we should have 6M healing across the whole team.