Healing should be a separate stat? We already have that stat. It's called Magicka & Stamina.

Alchimiste1

healing and damage in bgs are both relative to the type of matchups you get. At higher mmr is not uncommon to see damage and healing numbers in the millions. For reference I think some of the highest damage recorded has been made by a stamsorc and its around 8 mil damage in a bg

SkaraMinoc

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

We are seriously at the point now where guys are saying that ~750k healing (not including your self heals) by just using matriarch is BAD on a hybrid dps build.

In a competitive Deathmatch battleground with premades, players will hit 3-5m damage and 2-4m healing consistently.

My top healing score is 5.3 million.



Sarah always hits 3 million damage and sometimes 5+ million damage.



1.2 million damage and 600k healing while securing 12 killing blows and spot healing 18 times is not overpowered.



Mag Sorc is in a good place and doesn't need a nerf by splitting spell damage from healing.

YoureWrongImRight

All your examples do is highlight the issue even further.

having ridiculous damage and healing scores way up into the 3-5-8 million is simply an indication of one thing... NOBODY IS DYING.

Sure let's average 4M damage, average player has 30k health, that's enough damage to get 133 kills over 15 minutes, almost 9 kills per minute, for a single player. Did the match even go the full 15? I don't know, with damage like that I would assume so.

Even if you had a dedicated healer who did 0 damage (not likely), you have 3 dps like that, enough damage to kill 400 people (rounded up) in a match that only requires you to kill 33 in order to get 500 points and win.

The only way people can sustain damage like that in a match means that there is healing being thrown out over and above what is being dished out or people would die and the match would be over. You don't rack up impressive damage numbers when you're slaughtering people because they simply don't live long enough for it to happen. You put 30k damage burst into them and they fall over, you get 30k added to your score.

Matches go the full 15 minutes all the time these days. What does that tell you about the state of overall healing power?

Dem_kitkats1

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

We are seriously at the point now where guys are saying that ~750k healing (not including your self heals) by just using matriarch is BAD on a hybrid dps build.

In a competitive Deathmatch battleground with premades, players will hit 3-5m damage and 2-4m healing consistently.

My top healing score is 5.3 million.



Sarah always hits 3 million damage and sometimes 5+ million damage.



1.2 million damage and 600k healing is appropriate for heal mage but low for primary damage or primary healer.

I'm not understanding the point. It's easy to rack up millions in damage if you're trying to get through millions in healing. Especially if I have to get through at least 600k healing (not including self healing) per DD toon (not including dedicated healers on top of that).

SkaraMinoc

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

having ridiculous damage and healing scores way up into the 3-5-8 million is simply an indication of one thing... NOBODY IS DYING.

<snip>

Matches go the full 15 minutes all the time these days. What does that tell you about the state of overall healing power?

This is how competitive Team Deathmatch usually works. WoW 5v5 arenas are the same way.

Beardimus

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

Beardimus wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

And what about solo players?

Imagine coming to any other MMORPG and requesting the ability for solo player to be able to effectively play against big group

Yes, you would at least need a small group to cover all roles.
The rules will be same for everyone, if you can't heal as DD it means enemy DDs can't heal themselves too. Can dispatch stray players faster, can kill healers first and then the rest of the group. Lots of new possibilities.

Well this game has functioned like that since it was launched.

So because other MMOs don't offer that, this game should now alienate people who like running solo or small groups, so everyone has to play as a ball group?

Cyrodill would be stale and offer one type of play.

BGs would never take place because less people like playing as healer. And you'd be screwed if you got a rubbish one.

Duels would be non existent.

No thanks. Good thing that ZOS will never listen to this suggestion.

@Brrrofski is spot on here. The last thing we need is bigger PvP groups and stale play for small scale / solo. It's the only decent part of PvP.

Please explain how you can make game mechanics that make sense where more people do not have a statistical advantage over less people.

Basically what this boils down to is more experienced players want as many advantages as possible to dunk on newer players. There is no possible way to explain why in a situation where you have 10 players vs 2 players that the 2 players should be on equal footing with 10, it would make absolutely no sense.

You discourage large groups from forming by limiting the rewards they receive for doing so, not by changing actual game mechanics to support solo play over group play.

Even just from a logical perspective as a business, what do you think they care about as a company? Keeping 10 newer players around, or keeping 1 guy around happy who wants to dunk on them? People are not going to continue playing with things the way they are, people load into PvP get frustrated chasing 1 guy around a tower getting bursted down in 1 second, and they log off and just never come back.

People keep saying "oh it's just a learn to play issue", "git gud". Don't worry they are going to learn to play... a different game entirely. Why do you think everyone jumped ship so fast when New World came out? People are sick of it the way it is.

Every scenario has edge cases.
As for the tower guys, dont chase them - simple..

For many the fullest type of play is zerg action and ball groups, that's truely the dullest for of fights for me anyway.

No-one should be invincible, but there aren't .any who are. to your example if 1 person takes on 10 in a 1vX it's because the 10 are PvE non Impen and poorly setup.

1 experienced player is never really trouncing another 2/3 solo.

But anyway we digress. I was just agreeing with Broffski.

YoureWrongImRight

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

having ridiculous damage and healing scores way up into the 3-5-8 million is simply an indication of one thing... NOBODY IS DYING.

<snip>

Matches go the full 15 minutes all the time these days. What does that tell you about the state of overall healing power?

This is how competitive Team Deathmatch usually works. WoW 5v5 arenas are the same way.

I don't get how it's competitive when you don't know who you're going to be matched against and there is no ranked mode for battlegrounds. But that's not really relevant to the thread.

So you think it's not a problem that matches are just an endless stalemate when you know how to play?

SkaraMinoc

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

I don't get how it's competitive when you don't know who you're going to be matched against and there is no ranked mode for battlegrounds. But that's not really relevant to the thread.

I've been getting 3x premades in Group Deathmatch queue periodically ever since the queue test started. It's not frequent but they happen sometimes. In this scenario I consider the match competitive because there's a primary healer on each team.

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

So you think it's not a problem that matches are just an endless stalemate when you know how to play?

I can't really comment on whether it's ideal or not to have long TTK (Time-To-Kill) for premades. There's a deeper discussion on game design needed for competitive Team Deathmatch / Arena.

SkaraMinoc

divnyi wrote: »

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

2) Removing only spell damage from the healing calculation while still allowing max magicka to boost heals will strongly nerf Mag Sorc. There's a reason the top Mag Sorc players run spell damage. Max magicka has been a weak source of damage for a very long time. It's also a very weak source of healing as well.

Max magica allows to stack very fat shields and do good damage at the same time. Know a couple of players that played that in different metas, it always works good.

I'm not saying you can't do well with max magicka. There are very good players, especially in Cyrodiil, that can 1vX entire groups with max magicka and shields. It's just not as mathematically effective at securing kills in Team Deathmatch BG.

SkaraMinoc

Back to the main topic, if you're going to split spell damage from healing then there will be major side effects that ripple throughout the combat system. This thread is about PvP but trials and dungeons would be affected as well.

ZOS and players would need to plan for this.

Dem_kitkats1

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Back to the main topic, if you're going to split spell damage from healing then there will be major side effects that ripple throughout the combat system. This thread is about PvP but trials and dungeons would be affected as well.

ZOS and players would need to plan for this.

To be honest PvE needs it too as support roles now have no meaning except for in a few vet trials.

YoureWrongImRight

@SkaraMinoc

I would rather see more active thought brought to the game in the way of buffs/debuffs/sheering (removing buffs from opponents for those who have not seen this before) rather than having dps mashing a heal button. Make debuffs hurt, make them punishing to leave on you, make it important for supports to clear them. And honestly remove dumb garbage like plaguebreak from the game, they seem to have this way of discouraging people from actually playing and taking decisive actions and instead want to replace everything with mindless proc sets that simply trigger by taking actions you would be taking anyway.

I would rather see guard tanks be much more viable than they are now where people actually want to run one. I would rather see them flying over with shield charge and slamming guard on their teammate to save them than just have them spamming a heal button. Perhaps a whole thread for them after this and how to make them not suck.

Use actual mechanisms of people having to coordinate together to mitigate incoming damage. MAKE PEOPLE ACTUALLY HAVE TO DO THINGS, not just smash one button over and over. Throwing out some heals can be part of it, sure, no problem. But it should be reliable as a stop gap only. Why can a hybrid DPS or even Full on DPS be able to out heal an enemy DPS who's smashing his team mate by smashing honor over and over, it makes no sense.

The whole thing is just kinda meh.... when you get into this death ball fight where everyone is just smashing each other running around in the GTAOE heals etc and basically nobody can even hurt anyone. The moment you get somebody low they go from < 10% to 100% health basically instantly.

More dynamics at play than just 1,2,3,4 combo... heal heal... 1,2,3,4 combo... heal heal... over and over. There seems to be this mentality that any changes to this dynamic would just benefit zergs and I simply do not agree. More complex systems that are more punishing when applied benefit the smaller more coordinated group of individuals, not the mindless zerg.

They are not communicating with each other, they do not know when a guy needs a debuff purged, or needs a heal, they do not care enough to guard each other and protect each other from harm. They are simply one ant among many that only cares about themselves, just in a large group.

Casul

Only if they un-nerf health recovery

divnyi

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

Back to the main topic, if you're going to split spell damage from healing then there will be major side effects that ripple throughout the combat system. This thread is about PvP but trials and dungeons would be affected as well.

ZOS and players would need to plan for this.

Most players in PvE go with 64 in magica anyway.
Healers are not using healing-boosting sets, they are using team damage boosting sets or team sustain sets.
Don't see any issue here.

divnyi

BuildMan wrote: »

Only if they un-nerf health recovery

Or just boost the numbers across the board so it would be an option for PvE.
I agree, health recovery sets are so dead now.

EmperorIl

divnyi wrote: »

It is a mechanic on proc sets already, and in clearly proven to be balanced.
You can't go with 35k HP, stack regens so you don't care about pools and stack WD/SD to be able to heal via proc sets.
You need to be an actual healer or at least squishy DPS to use heal sets.

It's time to do the same to the skills. Plain and simple.

I would like to see a mechanic where the higher your wpn/spell dmg is the lower your resistances/armor go, something like that.

Casul

EmperorIl wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

It is a mechanic on proc sets already, and in clearly proven to be balanced.
You can't go with 35k HP, stack regens so you don't care about pools and stack WD/SD to be able to heal via proc sets.
You need to be an actual healer or at least squishy DPS to use heal sets.

It's time to do the same to the skills. Plain and simple.

I would like to see a mechanic where the higher your wpn/spell dmg is the lower your resistances/armor go, something like that.

Oof, the change to kill 1vXing.

EmperorIl

BuildMan wrote: »

EmperorIl wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

It is a mechanic on proc sets already, and in clearly proven to be balanced.
You can't go with 35k HP, stack regens so you don't care about pools and stack WD/SD to be able to heal via proc sets.
You need to be an actual healer or at least squishy DPS to use heal sets.

It's time to do the same to the skills. Plain and simple.

I would like to see a mechanic where the higher your wpn/spell dmg is the lower your resistances/armor go, something like that.

Oof, the change to kill 1vXing.

It's called balance.

YoureWrongImRight

Not sure why every time things get brought up like this there's a tendency to think in a vacuum only about how these changes would hurt you. It hurts your opponents as well.

If you build for damage you will hit hard, but also get hit hard by other damage dealers.

If you encounter a guy that is hard for you to kill, he is likely tanky, therefore he won't hit you very hard even with your defensive losses.

it's not some situation where you specifically are receiving a defensive hit and they get to remain the same.

If you encounter another DD you can still have your fight and likely pop one another fairly quickly as there is no way your self healing should be able to out heal the others damage as it does now. You get a quick combo off, he will likely be dead very quickly. Fight over. Your superior skills have lead to your victory. What is the issue here?

Instead of, you get your combo, missed a crit damm. Guy does heal, roll heal roll, dance around tree, okay he's back at full. Now he gets a chance to combo you. Do you not want to have already won the fight at this point? With reduced self healing kit on DD's it would likely be very hard for someone to overcome you in this situation if they are already on the back foot. You win even more than you do now due to your superior skills, congrats.

VaranisArano

divnyi wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

And what about solo players?

Imagine coming to any other MMORPG and requesting the ability for solo player to be able to effectively play against big group

Yes, you would at least need a small group to cover all roles.
The rules will be same for everyone, if you can't heal as DD it means enemy DDs can't heal themselves too. Can dispatch stray players faster, can kill healers first and then the rest of the group. Lots of new possibilities.

Considering that Battlegrounds has a popular solo option used to avoid premade groups, and Cyrodiil is no longer balanced around groups of 8 to 24, I think it's worth acknowledging that ESO, while an MMORPG, doesn't expect it's PVPers to run in premade groups with a dedicated healer.


It's worth noting that I was a raid healer in Cyrodiil (before my guild left for New World.)

What you are asking for sounds to me like taking away the ability to self-heal effectively from players who build for tankiness or damage. That is - in order for a Stam build to use Vigor effectively, they need to build for the healing Stat, right?

Here's the deal: my Raid would've cackled over this change. We had several dedicated healers, backing up players who individually specialized in tankiness, CCs and damage. We're already min-maxed to cover each other's weakness with numbers.

Now you suggest taking self-healing away from our opponents. Or if they have to put stats and gear towards self-healing, that's less tankiness or damage they can throw at us. Glorious! Weakening our PUG and small scale opponents plays right in our favor. We lose a little, but our non-specialized opponents lose a lot more.

That strategy of "kill healers first, then the rest of the group"...yeah, that's a good description of what the ball groups are going to do to their unorganized opponents. The ball groups aren't going get easier for PUGs (now with less healing) to crack. That strategy is easier said than done vs a strong ball group, and harder yet with weakened PUGs.

If you were trying to make premade groups more powerful than they already are vs PUGs in Cyrodiil, this'll do it.

YoureWrongImRight

@VaranisArano

If healers were more desirable due to DD's not being able to completely heal themselves more people would play them and you would see more of them in PUG's. Why would anyone want to roll a healer or tank who plays in a PUG right now? Makes no sense to play one and then go try to run with randoms.

What does effectively mean to you? Like they can't cast one vigor and go from 30% to 100% over 5 seconds. Yea that seems overly effective to me.

Why are we trying to balance mechanics around solo's and random PUGs? I don't get it. If you're not at a disadvantage by having poor group composition that means that there are junk roles or ineffective roles in the game.

Perhaps they can implement some good changes and your guild will come back since they jumped ship immediately when another game came out like everyone else.

DrSlaughtr

Have healing based on max stat, not damage.

VaranisArano

YoureWrongImRight wrote: »

@VaranisArano

If healers were more desirable due to DD's not being able to completely heal themselves more people would play them and you would see more of them in PUG's. Why would anyone want to roll a healer or tank who plays in a PUG right now? Makes no sense to play one and then go try to run with randoms.

What does effectively mean to you? Like they can't cast one vigor and go from 30% to 100% over 5 seconds. Yea that seems overly effective to me.

Why are we trying to balance mechanics around solo's and random PUGs? I don't get it. If you're not at a disadvantage by having poor group composition that means that there are junk roles or ineffective roles in the game.

Perhaps they can implement some good changes and your guild will come back since they jumped ship immediately when another game came out like everyone else.

Well, the only thing bringing my guild back is improved performance. So I'm not holding my breath.


Part of the reason to care about how balance effects PUGs is that they, not the premade or ball groups, are the majority of players in Cyrodiil. When the disparity between ball groups and PUGs gets way too high, that's not a fun experience for most players any longer.

To be blunt: most players run in disorganized groups. ZOS knows this, and whenever they'd inadvertently swung the pendulum too far in favor of organized groups as they have in the past, those metas generally get reverted.

(Notable examples: High siege damage during Summerset left organized raids as the only groups who could heal through siege while PUGs had a terrible time. While it's exactly as you'd expect when raids have dedicated healers, it wasn't ideal gameplay for the majority, and ZOS reverted it. Also, when ZOS nerfed every source of speed except for Rapids, leaving organized raids the only players who could afford to spam Rapids and move quickly. Noting that this wasn't ideal gameplay for the majority, ZOS evened the playing field the next update.)

You are always going to be at a disadvantage in a disorganized group vs an organized group.

But it is to ZOS' benefit that they do not let that disadvantage become too wide...and the OP's suggestion would very much widen it. Everyone loses some self-healing, but the min-maxed raids with their dedicated healers lose much less than everyone else. It's not hard to see that raids would be more dominant than they are now under those conditions, and that greater dominance is not really ideal for the majority of players.

I say that as a raid healer. It's sweet to win, but there comes a point when the deck is getting overly stacked in our favor, and that's not fun for our opponents.

YoureWrongImRight

@VaranisArano

We need to take into consideration how and why PUGs are formed.

You have a bunch of players running around generally in solo, duo, trio. Your group is attacking, taking objectives etc. The ground of random players come together and start to form larger groups to defend themselves. They would not have any healers because nobody would ever run a healer in a solo, duo, or trio context as it sits currently. If DPS could not heal themselves as well as they do now, would a trio have a healer? Probably yea I would think some would. Others might swap to a dedicated healer as the group grows because they are actually impactful. Right now everyone is just playing hybrid DD so they can heal themselves and their buddy and they don't care about anyone else.

We can't look at previous patches for examples because the same conditions did not exist. If dedicated healers were seen as being more valuable in the trio+ context, more people might try them who currently are not willing to try them. They might discover that they like it, and keep playing one as their main. There is literally no encouragement for the average player who is just playing with a couple friends to play a support/healer role. There's a pretty wide consensus that they are basically not needed except in a raiding context that not everyone enjoys.

If fundamental changes are made to how healing works you would see a shift in class/role distribution that would encourage more people to play this role that currently doesn't exist. So instead of a PUG with just 20 random DD's you would likely have at least a few random healers thrown into the mix.

Dem_kitkats1

VaranisArano wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

Brrrofski wrote: »

And what about solo players?

Imagine coming to any other MMORPG and requesting the ability for solo player to be able to effectively play against big group

Yes, you would at least need a small group to cover all roles.
The rules will be same for everyone, if you can't heal as DD it means enemy DDs can't heal themselves too. Can dispatch stray players faster, can kill healers first and then the rest of the group. Lots of new possibilities.

Considering that Battlegrounds has a popular solo option used to avoid premade groups, and Cyrodiil is no longer balanced around groups of 8 to 24, I think it's worth acknowledging that ESO, while an MMORPG, doesn't expect it's PVPers to run in premade groups with a dedicated healer.


It's worth noting that I was a raid healer in Cyrodiil (before my guild left for New World.)

What you are asking for sounds to me like taking away the ability to self-heal effectively from players who build for tankiness or damage. That is - in order for a Stam build to use Vigor effectively, they need to build for the healing Stat, right?

Here's the deal: my Raid would've cackled over this change. We had several dedicated healers, backing up players who individually specialized in tankiness, CCs and damage. We're already min-maxed to cover each other's weakness with numbers.

Now you suggest taking self-healing away from our opponents. Or if they have to put stats and gear towards self-healing, that's less tankiness or damage they can throw at us. Glorious! Weakening our PUG and small scale opponents plays right in our favor. We lose a little, but our non-specialized opponents lose a lot more.

That strategy of "kill healers first, then the rest of the group"...yeah, that's a good description of what the ball groups are going to do to their unorganized opponents. The ball groups aren't going get easier for PUGs (now with less healing) to crack. That strategy is easier said than done vs a strong ball group, and harder yet with weakened PUGs.

If you were trying to make premade groups more powerful than they already are vs PUGs in Cyrodiil, this'll do it.

I mean....premades are going to be powerful no matter what. The ability to coordinate, min-max with eachother, and cover all roles is going to give you a huge advantage over everyone simple as that. But now, no matter what players do you are even more unkillable, as ridiculous self healing and heal stacking prevents anyone from being able to do anything tactical to counter you.

Self healing isn't giving smaller groups and PUGs an extra advantage against you, it's only prolonging the fight. Weaker/inexperienced players still die, solo players still avoid you, PUGs survive longer, but without the coordination, and the inability to get through the massive amounts of healing they still get taken down by premades all of the time. And now there is no way to counter premades except to have another premade, which then turns into a giant ticklefight.

If you were to lower the access to healing the composition in groups would change. As playing a support would be much more viable and impactful more people would opt to play them. Instead of only encountering PUGs with DDs, group comps would be more diverse in including healers, tanks, etc. So if a premade running with 1 healer encountered a PUG with 2, they would then be at the disadvantage as the PUG could tactfully take down your 1 healer and leave the rest of you vulnerable as your self healing alone wouldn't save you. Not like now where taking down a healer is impossible, as stack healing and self healing is so strong.

Plus, it's not like you won't be able to self heal at all as people are making it out to seem, you'll still be able to, as well as still have forms of damage mitigation.

OBJnoob

I think splitting the stats would be a great idea. Having read the whole thread… I do believe that it would increase the strength of ballgroups -v- zergs. But it would be the same advantage that they already have… coordination and designated roles. A designated ballgroup pvp healer would have no reason to complain. Change your sets. Good to go. Like when pve people gripe about changes but then 3 days later we all realize the damage is higher not lesser.

I mean can you imagine the bar space you must save when being in a perfectly coordinated pvp raid? I tried to form a guild once to that effect but literally couldn’t get anyone to accept that, hey, you don’t need to give yourself major sorcery we got you. Hey you don’t need to give yourself major resolve we got you. It blew their minds. Pvp raid healers would be fine. Pvp raid dds would be fine.

The problem with pugs is that they don’t have, for any reliable amount of time, someone having their back. So they have to do everything for themselves and yes that makes them weaker. Well actually, in my opinion, it makes them stronger but only on a 1 for 1 basis. Unless of course the pug group is just really bad players but let’s pretend they aren’t.

Anyway… I’m rambling I know… there’s no change you’re going to make that’s going to help 5 players who never met or planned anything beat a group of 5 people with perfect symbiosis. It shouldn’t even be a part of this discussion… except to say that the constant desire for 1 player to be able to beat 3 players has led to a culture amongst us where now we want (random metaphor incoming,) kids that don’t do homework to get as good grades as kids that do. Which is and has always been wrong. And has now led to the problem we have… which is not zergs fighting ballgroups (because ballgroups beating zergs is actually happening and the culture we want. 4 kids who did their homework beating 6 that did not)… the problem we have is solo players are way too strong.

And it’s exactly because of what OP says. And it can be solved the exact way they suggest.

And some things would need to be balanced around it…. Like others have mentioned magsorc at length. A very experienced magsorc suggested it would be a nerf for his particular play style but as everything else got nerfed simultaneously the magsorc would obviously come out ahead of the rest, even if behind its former self. I think nightblades would come out strong as well since they can pretty much just avoid damage.

So… in case you haven’t puked yet reading this… a brief synopsis. Magdk… Templar… I mean anything worth playing solo in the current meta just has ridiculous heals and has had to sacrifice zero to achieve it. While simultaneously having great offense. Stacking one thing benefits offense and defense equally. I mean… isn’t the whole discussion cleanly wrapped up in that one simple sentence?

Stacking one thing benefits offense and defense equally. <——— you can like it or not like it, but it doesn’t make literal sense.

Amottica

Besides the reality that changing all magicka damage skills into stamina skills would require a huge balancing process, this is not that type of game. ESO is clearly designed so that the trinity is blurred and it should remain that way.

xylena_lazarow

Healers shouldn't also be tanks, tanks shouldn't heal. How we get there, let ZOS figure that out.

VaranisArano

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Healers shouldn't also be tanks, tanks shouldn't heal. How we get there, let ZOS figure that out.

Whelp, there goes Warden.

Amottica

VaranisArano wrote: »

xylena_lazarow wrote: »

Healers shouldn't also be tanks, tanks shouldn't heal. How we get there, let ZOS figure that out.

Whelp, there goes Warden.

As I noted just a few posts up, Zenimax seems to have blurred the lines in the trinity. The Warden makes it clear this was a conscious decision since they clearly placed a healing skill with a morph that will heal others in the Warden's tanking line.

Yea, it seems clear that this is another area Zenimax intended for the design to not restrict choices, but permit them.