Dark prospects of ESO ingame economy

Lysette

perfiction wrote: »

DinoZavr wrote: »

Or how do i produce this?

Simple, just put insanely overpriced item to guild store and reloadui to send it to TTC server, then waste your listing fee because nobody will buy this

you never know, in EVE I have sometimes priced stuff an order of magnitude higher than it should be priced - people do not pay attention to how many zeros there are often - if the price looks somewhat acceptable or even like a discount (if it would have the correct amount of zeros), then they might buy it - and I get 10 times more than the item is worth - as often as I have done it, there was never an item which didn't sell within a 30 days period. Someone will buy it, by accident or because he doesn't care to pay 10 times as much, because it is convenient.

ApoAlaia

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

It is a PC "only" problem, the smart person would assume something on PC is causing it, something console players do not have, would it not be in the best interests to "remove" whatever is the cause?

- Tamriel Trade Centre
- Master Merchant

These 2 addons should be banned immediatly.

Why MM but not ATT? :squint:

TrelNord

For me I reckon the biggest threat to my enjoyment of the game is the steady drumbeat of ERP'rs (Economist Role Players) who demand a transformation of the entire ecosphere because make-believe shiny things are make-believe too expensive using make-believe currencies.

Can we just make one mega thread on this and bury it finally?

I know. I don't have to read these essays but with Extended Maintenance it's hard to ignore them all.

Lysette

I see no ERPer complaining about it - those complaining are customers.

Larcomar

Does it actually matter that much? Every mmo Ive ever played had inflation. The world didn't end. Slightly feels like first world problems tbh.

Indeed, I'd go further and say that, at least in ESO, gold just isn't that important. Because it's not that useful. Once you've levelled up your backpack, your bank space and your mount, the rest is extremely discretionary.

You can farm most gear - pretty easily with the stickerbook and curated drops - and the stuff you can't farm is generally bind on equip anyway.

Sure, if people are buying multiple houses or have to have every crafting motif, that's probably going to cost them a few million. But do they really need that?

I can appreciate that if you're a billionaire trading type seeing your carefully hoarded gold depreciate this might be annoying but then Id guess most of them have it all invested in stuff anyway.

For your average players, Id guess it's a shrug. It's a game. Moreover it's a game where there isn't much to spend gold on. I've probably got five times more gold in the bank than I've spent in my time in ESO... Though I'm starting to think I shoudl go 'invest' it lol

TX12001rwb17_ESO

ApoAlaia wrote: »

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

It is a PC "only" problem, the smart person would assume something on PC is causing it, something console players do not have, would it not be in the best interests to "remove" whatever is the cause?

- Tamriel Trade Centre
- Master Merchant

These 2 addons should be banned immediatly.

Why MM but not ATT? :squint:

No idea what that is but that as well.

VaranisArano

Why don't these middle-class players just farm the materials themselves?

It hasn't gotten harder to pick crafting materials out of the ground. It hasn't gotten harder to do crafting writs (it's actually gotten easier for non-Lazy Writ Crafting players).

So for the players who don't want to mess with the trade guilds, there's zero reason they can't be self-sufficient here. Nobody has to buy materials except as a shortcut for farming it themselves.


I'm sitting at about 10 million gold right now on PC/NA, so I'm rich compared to the average player who doesn't trade much and dirt poor compared to players who trade a lot.

Truth is, I'm not feeling the crunch because I farm and sell materials. I don't buy them. Why would I? If I need a stack of platinum dust for myself, I farm Craglorn for it. I don't buy it for 50k+. If I need gold for something else, I sell the dust I farmed (and the nirncrux, which you can get at level 3 fresh out of the tutorial).

Seems to me that when we talk about middle-class players buying materials at high prices, what we're seeing is a bunch of players who would rather pay gold than farm it themselves.

Which is fine. They get to decide what to do with their time and their gold. But I confess I'm less than sympathetic to their complaints about high prices when I'm like, "Everything I'm farming...you could farm too if you wanted to. You don't have to pay me if you feel you can't afford it."

Adremal

I don't see any* of what's described in the OP a problem or a possibility (e.g. as pointed out by someone else already, gold-rich crown sellers running a guild shop isn't sustainable). This inflation hasn't my gameplay at all, probably because like the user quoted below rightly said, unless you're into housing gold serves little to no purpose. The occasional motif here and there maybe. Housing mats are crazy expensive, but housing is pretty "endgame" (I still think their drop rate should be increased, but I digress).

*except for the bot ones. Those trains of bots going through level areas killing/harvesting everything in their wake should definitely be dealt with more aggressively because they're still there, and I bet my many houses they're being used by people who sell in-game gold for real money.

On the topic of real money for in-game gold, I also feel like a lot of the inflation complains stem from crown prices having gone up a lot. I don't see this as a problem, the ultra-rich in terms of gold will still be able to buy crown stuff, and buying crowns directly is still cheaper for most people (time is money) than becoming ultra-rich in terms of gold (which is useless like an earlier poster said, I'd rather have 60 million in assets [mostly furnishings] and 3-4 million in liquidity than 60 million gold in cash; if I did have so much liquid gold, I'd use it to buy crowns, but since I buy crowns instead and invest gold in assets (or "sink" it, it's not like I'm gonna dismantle a fully furnished house just to sell the furnishings, so the gold spent for those furnishing is removed from the game).

Just don't denigrate crown sellers (by calling them "in between" "the dark side" and "cheaters" is unfair, crowns cost and they were always meant to be a premium). Crowns offering very desirable items (none of which affecting gameplay beyond appearances) is not a crown sellers' fault. Crown stuff offering limited-time deals at a seemingly increased rate is not a crown sellers' fault. Like others said, crowns are the most desirable currency, and with the crown store offering all of that glittering stuff it's only normal that their prices go up. Do note that I say this as someone who doesn't sell crowns, because of the many reasons stated above.

Parasaurolophus wrote: »

What can you buy?
Any gear can be easily obtained today
Goldmats are generated by a lot of alts that do craft writs.

Crowns, housing stuff and the occasional missing motif page. None of which impacts "standard" gameplay.

Troodon80

DinoZavr wrote: »

Troodon80 wrote: »

However, I don't imagine much will be done. ZOS has said that it is a player driven economy. This is a player made problem. So we could also make the argument that ZOS shouldn't do anything and that it's up to us to fix what we made.

Player driven economy?
EVE Online is player-driven economy.
Or how do i produce this?

A player posting an item for a specific amount of in-game currency is the very definition of player-driven, because that item doesn't exist for specific non-player, system (coded) dictated amounts of gold. But I'm also not here to give you the definitions or tell you whether they're right or wrong. I'm just telling you what ZOS has said of guild traders, that there is a point to be made, and that ZOS likely won't intervene no matter how good or bad the suggestions might seem.

Tommy_The_Gun

There is a very simple solution how inflation can be reduced. You can either somehow reduce gold income (not a good solution & will only make players angry), or you can increase the supply of items on the market. The more items on the market, then it will mean that they are less rare and prices will drop.

But how you would do that without increasing drop rate ? Well... like I have said - it is simple.

Just allow guild trader vendor npcs to also buy stuff from players. So in trading guild, just like players are able post items they want to sell, they would also be able to post a request for items they want to buy & for how much. Any player visiting trading npc will be able to see those offers and as long as they have required item in their inventory - they will be able to sell those.

^ This will give a huge, permanent boost to a share "volume" of items on the market. All of them. So prices will definitely go down substantially.

Nezyr_Jezz

First of all lets take a look at the problems eso is currently facing economy wise:

[*] Not all regions/nations are paying same prices in real currency for ZOS products (including CCs and game expansions)
[*] No cosmetics (including most houses) purchesable with gold
[*] Online gold sale/crown gifting is availble
[*] Bots farming all over Tamriel
[*] 2020 was an huge infux of new players which in turn introduced much more gold into the market
[*] Sticker books reducing gold sink in items
[*] Currated drops and the lack of a collection bind mechanism on BOE items
[*] ZOS constant meta shifts throughout 2020-2021 (both pve and pvp)
[*] Trade addons widely used since 2020 (MM, TTC and so on)


I could go on, but i think you can conclude from the first 4 points where am i going with this.

The first economy spikes began with a drastic shift of meta in 2020 once greymoor DLCs were introduced. Main gold materials for PVP equipments skyrocketed since that very moment as well. Particularly at the moment of "PVP Cyrodiil tests" which required you to constantly swap your gear to be "in the game". Half of the trading guilds i had seen flourish throughout early 2020 died somewhere in 2021 (and im talking about guilds that occupied high interest areas such as Vivec). A lot of players engaged in "shady" activities to acquire their "fortune 500" "wallet" even faster.

So on one hand you have the lack of gold sinks (cosmetics) that are not mandatory (because i do not believe mount ugrades should be more expensive, nor the bank slots should), and on the other you have a huge drop of players acquiring vast fortunes over the 2020-2021 (legally or not). Both problems could be solved by an introduction of cosmetic sinks purchasable with gold.

Kiralyn2000

ApoAlaia wrote: »

The way I see it there are a few things that could curve the current devaluation rate of the currency however most of them would not be popular:

- Tax property and mounts. It would remove gold from the economy, and it would tax the wealthiest more however it would negatively affect crown sales so... I think the odds are not great.

Eh, just because someone has a bunch of houses or mounts, doesn't mean they're "wealthy". You can get a lot of those things without having much gold. (just because you have $ to buy Crowns with, doesn't mean you have gold). Or, you can have very little gold because you spent it all on houses & mounts.

(I can just see the "they're forcing me to buy more Crowns, to sell for gold, so I can pay my taxes!" threads )

TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »

It is a PC "only" problem, the smart person would assume something on PC is causing it, something console players do not have, would it not be in the best interests to "remove" whatever is the cause?

- Tamriel Trade Centre
- Master Merchant

These 2 addons should be banned immediatly.

TTC is the only reason I ever-so-rarely buy a motif/etc from the player economy (as I've mentioned elsewhere, I pretty much avoid it otherwise. I don't sell anything at all).

If I had to run from trader to trader to loadscreen to trader to trader to loadscreen to... searching for that one item for an hour? I'd just not bother, and delete all my master writs. As it is, I might buy two motifs in a year. And TTC is the only reason it happens. Because it gives me a slight chance of actually finding one.

Fennwitty

Start with more OPTIONAL gold-sinks and take it from there.

There simply are not meaningful gold sinks for long-time players.

There are three houses in the game that can be purchased with in-game gold about 3mil, but after that what is there?

VaranisArano

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

There is a very simple solution how inflation can be reduced. You can either somehow reduce gold income (not a good solution & will only make players angry), or you can increase the supply of items on the market. The more items on the market, then it will mean that they are less rare and prices will drop.

But how you would do that without increasing drop rate ? Well... like I have said - it is simple.

Some of the drop rates do need to be increased, though.

Plentiful Harvest is still bugged, six months after being brought to ZOS' attentions. We're paying 50 CP to get a 50% change at doubling resources nodes, but the actual doubling rate is only around 40%.

There's an "unintended" cooldown on Crimson Oath motifs, which raises questions about other hidden 20hr cooldowns on daily motifs.


There's other, more substantial changes ZOS could make that I doubt many would complain about in the long term:
- increase the drop chance for furnishing materials
- rework Jewelry Crafting to be in line with blacksmithing, clothing, etc.

NupidStoob

"The next contributing factor are bots, which are harvesting everything they can including low mobs and treasure chests, which are dropping golds in large amounts (as a byproduct)"

Bots on PC are gone for ages afaik. Haven't seen any in the usual spots for over two years. It's the main reason why dreugh wax is finally the most expensive armor temper and not like a few years back tempering alloy (not counting chromium).



There are a number of reasons for the inflation, but the main reason is that it is becoming easier and easier for everyone to get gold:

- We got more char slots overall which means more characters that can do writs for example. Due to crown trading people are also a lot less reluctant to buying those.

- CP. 2.0 cut costs for a lot of things that were tiny goldsinks such as repairs and teleporting etc. It also increases gold earned including from quests which factors in massively with writs.

- Daily writs generate insane amounts of money. Over 90k a day for someone with 18 chars. Just to put this into perspective if 10 people do writs on 18 chars for 12 days they generate over a hundred million gold. Or 20 people who do it on only 9 chars.

- Some Endeavors have gold rewards. Not much mind you, but considering how simple they are to do for everyone they just add to the pile.

- Daily login rewards regularly shower the economy with tons of gold by giving every player 100k gold plus lot's of little gold rewards.

- Pretty much every event nowadays rewards tons of little treasures which add up massively considering how crazy the majority of the playerbase seems to grind these events.

- Excavation also gives treasures although I think overall this is one of the least contributing factors.

- We have more trials and more players to do them. Due to powercreep it's also a lot faster and easier to complete the older ones which in turn creates huge amounts of rewards for the worthy.


All these things stack up massively. The biggest problem of all of these in my opinion are writs. Writs give pretty good rewards even without the gold and the effort needed to do them is minimal at the moment. It takes 45-60 minutes to do writs on 18 chars on PC depending on loading screens and how focused you are on it.

Now before someone starts with the good old "new player" argument, have a look at this list and all the things new players nowadays have access to compared to a few years ago. They also greatly benefit from the inflation for any purchases they need to make that are static cost and usually daunting for new players such as bag and bank upgrades. Just fishing for a few hours will help to completely buy those up. New players are the ones who the least of all the players benefit from writs. You need multiple leveled crafters, you need materials, you will greatly benefit from ESO+ and most importantly you need time. Newer players are usually a lot more occupied with actually playing the game than the veterans.

Stormshaper

For me, tradecraft has always been one of the attractions to this game (PC). But what about the CP star Plentiful Harvest (You have a 10% chance to gain double the yield from normal resource nodes per stage.)? It seems like this has been a factor in some deflation of purple mats. When it was introduced I thought this CP would cause a lot more defaltion but obviously it hasn't affected gold mats. I wonder if the inflation seen in gold mats would be even worse if it weren't for Plentiful Harvest.

Also, what are some good asset choices right now if I had 5 mil to invest?

VaranisArano

Stormshaper wrote: »

For me, tradecraft has always been one of the attractions to this game (PC). But what about the CP star Plentiful Harvest (You have a 10% chance to gain double the yield from normal resource nodes per stage.)? It seems like this has been a factor in some deflation of purple mats. When it was introduced I thought this CP would cause a lot more defaltion but obviously it hasn't affected gold mats. I wonder if the inflation seen in gold mats would be even worse if it weren't for Plentiful Harvest.

Also, what are some good asset choices right now if I had 5 mil to invest?

Plentiful Harvest is supposed to go up to 50%.

It doesn't - ZOS knows its bugged and only gives 40%ish, but they haven't fixed it in six months since one of their Forum people escalated it to Support.

Sotha_Sil

For PC EU, Inflation is not based from "gold being generated from the game" or whatever OP meant. I have seen the prices increase as a consequence of the crown for gold madness we see on the platform.

It leads to massive amount of gold given to people who don't know the price of things and tend to buy overpriced stuff without a blink. I have been selling some items 3 times, 5 times or even 10 times their value in guild stores, whereas these items can be obtained easily.

ixthUA

When farming gold, there is going to be a lot of it, so prices will go up. I like how POE solved this - there is no currency, only materials and items, which are used as currency.

Woozywyvern

I see the Crafting Writs agrument thrown about in all these threads, but the truth of the matter is that no one knows how many players do daily writs with how many characters. If writs are that bad, ban the addons that allow them to be easier, along with the trade add ons.

But to me it smacks of 'I've made my gold doing crafting writs every day, now the economy is (apparently) knackered I don't want others to have that opprtunity'

I also think a lot of the complaints about inflation use materials as a reason, but what they are really complaining about is Crown to Gold ratio.

jaws343

Woozywyvern wrote: »

I see the Crafting Writs agrument thrown about in all these threads, but the truth of the matter is that no one knows how many players do daily writs with how many characters. If writs are that bad, ban the addons that allow them to be easier, along with the trade add ons.

But to me it smacks of 'I've made my gold doing crafting writs every day, now the economy is (apparently) knackered I don't want others to have that opprtunity'

I also think a lot of the complaints about inflation use materials as a reason, but what they are really complaining about is Crown to Gold ratio.

The add-on argument is compelling because it is the largest difference between the PC and console environments. And the console environments do not have the same economy issues that PC has. So, the more obvious difference, add-ons, is likely the biggest cause.

Market add-ons essentially turn the stall based trader system into a centralized trader. Players can see all prices for all items all at once across every zone. And can use that info to competitively price, or corner a market, far more easily than console, where players have to put in far more effort to do the same, if they even could do the same in any where near an effective manner.

Crafting add-ons cut down the on the time it takes to do the daily crafting writs by quite a bit. The time to do writs on 18 characters between console and PC with add-ons is significant enough to be impactful.

Adremal

ixthUA wrote: »

When farming gold, there is going to be a lot of it, so prices will go up. I like how POE solved this - there is no currency, only materials and items, which are used as currency.

It works in leagues because they last some months and then reset, it wouldn't be much different if applied to non-league content as prices stabilize. Plus all items in ESO are the same, whereas the same item in POE could range from 10 c to several ex according to rolls, so there's that RNG which is (thankfully) not in ESO to take into consideration too...

Amottica

trpajzla wrote: »

The problem is inflation, which is especially painful on PC platform.

I do not understand how this is painful. Since everyone has the same capability to earn gold everyone has the same purchasing power related to how much effort they put into earning gold.

We are not talking about the real world where one person makes a million a year and another person is lucky to make 50k. In-game we are all on equal footing depending on our efforts.

I suppose it is also depending on how much we want to buy but that is the same as in the real world where some try to purchase more than their means.

Amottica

LatentBuzzard wrote: »

There's always these long explanations about how to combat inflation and yet none of them ever seem to include one of the most obvious solutions which is to stop buying items at silly prices. We all like a shortcut but you can't be prepared to pay silly prices to take a shortcut and then complain that shortcuts cost silly prices.

If you think that the Crown exchange rates are too high then stop paying them. If you think gold material prices are too high then stop paying them. If you think <INSERT ITEM HERE> prices are too high then stop paying them.

I know there's going to be a lot of people that want to reply saying "but I want them, I just don't want to pay much for them" but unfortunately that's not how things work. You can get these items without paying silly prices for them but you have to use the alternative methods to get them like farming or even paying real money for Crowns. Yes it sucks, yes it requires more effort and yes it doesn't give instant gratification but if people keep paying silly prices then things will keep costing silly prices.

As much as we may all want them, players have no right to reasonably priced items in a player driven market. Other players will charge you as much as they think they can get away with and if you pay those prices then you're just furthering the problem. Stop paying the silly prices and get the items using the alternative methods. If you feel that the alternative methods are too onerous and you have to take the shortcut then stop complaining about inflation because by paying the silly prices you are furthering the problem.

Exactly. Do more to earn gold, which we all have the same ability to do, or do more to farm materials. That is the best solution to the issue when someone finds costs to be higher than they want to pay.

DinoZavr

I ll just leave it here.

PC EU - Chromium Plating


Courtesy of UESP: https://esosales.uesp.net/?text=chromium+plating&level=&quality=&trait=&itemtype=&equiptype=&weapontype=&armortype=&timeperiod=31558150&saletype=all&server=EU

Araneae6537

It strikes me as ludicrous that people always blame crafting writs when they are a better source of materials added to the game than they are gold. Jewelry crafting writs are one of the best sources of chromium grains and yet that is one of the materials continuing to go up in price. How are crafting writs to blame when they create both materials (directly and surveys) as well as gold?

It is also worth emphasizing that inflation only impacts things bought from other players. If you’re saving up for houses, achievement furnishings, luxury furnishings, etc., those cost the same as ever. What it means is that if you’re a mid-level player and need crafting materials (and or want to make extra gold yourself), you’ll do well to harvest materials as you go about your quest and even spend some time farming. What can you not afford? Newer motifs (as sold by other players), which go down in price anyway over time, even with inflation.

None of the things that players want to buy are static and moving out of reach with inflation. Just as gold is added to the game with crafting writs, so are materials. Inflation doesn’t impact a player’s purchase power with NPCs nor does it impact their ability to get any increasingly expensive items (such as materials or motifs) themselves.

ixthUA

Adremal wrote: »

It works in leagues because they last some months and then reset, it wouldn't be much different if applied to non-league content as prices stabilize. Plus all items in ESO are the same, whereas the same item in POE could range from 10 c to several ex according to rolls, so there's that RNG which is (thankfully) not in ESO to take into consideration too...

POE has permanent leagues such as standard and hardcode, not wiped since 2013, and they have no currency - only items and crafting materials, and it works just fine.
People farm gold without realizing it has no value other than buying value, and it reduces as fast as they farm new gold.

ArchangelIsraphel

Kiralyn2000 wrote: »

ApoAlaia wrote: »

The way I see it there are a few things that could curve the current devaluation rate of the currency however most of them would not be popular:

- Tax property and mounts. It would remove gold from the economy, and it would tax the wealthiest more however it would negatively affect crown sales so... I think the odds are not great.

Eh, just because someone has a bunch of houses or mounts, doesn't mean they're "wealthy". You can get a lot of those things without having much gold. (just because you have $ to buy Crowns with, doesn't mean you have gold). Or, you can have very little gold because you spent it all on houses & mounts.

(I can just see the "they're forcing me to buy more Crowns, to sell for gold, so I can pay my taxes!" threads )

Exactly what Kiralyn said, I wholeheartedly agree. Owning a dozen or more houses does not mean you are rich in terms of gold, nor does owing a ton of mounts. It means nothing about a players ownership of gold because all of these can be purchased with crowns.

I'm not sure why anyone would link mounts to being rich anyway since there are only three mounts in game that can be purchased with gold, all of which are below 50k.Then there are those that can be acquired as an in game reward or through events. The rest are bought via the crown store or crates.

The company would be mad to place a gold tax on something that people purchase from the crown store, as it would discourage sales of both. Many people would quit the game, or refuse to buy these things all together because they'd become an inconvenience and a burden.

I've played games where housing was taxed, and it was terrible. Not a fun mechanic. And there was STILL insane inflation- it fixed nothing. If anything it made things worse because people raised prices so that they could pay the taxes, and made it so that only the elite of the elite could afford houses.

Also, those who own many houses are usually pouring their income into things like the luxury furnishing vendor and other such gold sinks anyway, even if they are buying the houses with gold. They're already participating in gold sinks...they don't need more through useless mechanics like taxation.

If they introduce new gold sinks at all, they should provide reward and incentive to dump ones gold into an NPC- something like a "smuggler" vendor who sells low value, bound crown store furnishings for gold, for example, would make an interesting NPC. "Punishing" gold sinks aren't fun and loose players.

Or, if you want to capitalize on those who own houses while creating a good gold sink at the same time- increase the housing slot limit beyond 700 and charge gold to do it similar to bank slots. Create more inventory storage boxes that cost large quantities of gold. Rewarding gold sinks make people want to sink their gold more than punishing ones.

Amottica

DinoZavr wrote: »

I ll just leave it here.

PC EU - Chromium Plating


Courtesy of UESP: https://esosales.uesp.net/?text=chromium+plating&level=&quality=&trait=&itemtype=&equiptype=&weapontype=&armortype=&timeperiod=31558150&saletype=all&server=EU

That is based on Chromium plating which is already very rare. It would not take much of a bump in interest in this item to drive the price up. It is also probably the least needed material for the end game level due to the extremely small amount of benefit upgrading jewelry to gold provides.

In other words, how limiting that information is makes it very misleading.

Woozywyvern

DinoZavr wrote: »

I ll just leave it here.

PC EU - Chromium Plating


Courtesy of UESP: https://esosales.uesp.net/?text=chromium+plating&level=&quality=&trait=&itemtype=&equiptype=&weapontype=&armortype=&timeperiod=31558150&saletype=all&server=EU

I do find it interesting that the price was pretty much stable until Blackwood. Something changed with the Blackwood release? Certainly puts doubt on the crafting writ argument as they have been the same ease of access for PC players for ages.

Looks more like market manipulation to me.