Please give an option to remove DLC dungeons from the random queue or double the XP bonus for them.

xXSilverDragonXx

Let me begin by saying that given that DLC dungeons are significantly longer in general than all the base game dungeons (barring COA II and possibly Selene's Web) it seems strange that you don't get higher bonus XP for doing them. Even with a very high DPS on normal you still have to run through the entire dungeon which still takes more time than nearly all the base game normal dungeons. Given that now there are almost exactly the same amount of DLC dungeons as base game dungeons, the odds of getting them have increased to 50% chance. Yet, there is no real incentive to waste time in what could be a fake healer, fake tank situation with people who may or may not know the mechanics or may or may not want to learn them along with the fact that they are just longer in general before you even consider those issues.

If ZOS were to ,both, incentivize DLC dungeons with double XP for doing them and give a choice to not end up doing them at all, it could positively impact how the queue works. Given DLC dungeons take longer and are more mechanically involved AND tend to require actual healers and actual tanks odds are people would do the math still opt out of the DLCs knowing they could do a non DLC in half the time with their fake tank or fake healer. Doubling XP probably would have more people hoping to get them and potentially they might not be people who know or want to learn them. They might not be actual tanks or actual healers. But since that is already happening, at least rewarding players better for a longer and potentially more tedious experience would balance it out. Those people that didn't learn them and were fake tanks or fake healers would have stayed before anyway. Who knows? With double xp bonus they might actually decide to learn them at some point just to make their lives easier. Probably not, but miracles do happen. At least rewarding players appropriately for doing them would make sense. What's the incentive otherwise?

Giving the option to remove DLC dungeons from the queue would actually be a very good thing. Here's why:

• 1) less people quiting upon entering meaning less waiting for a full group.
• 2) the people who end up in DLC dungeons WANT to be there. You might get an occasional straggler who didn't realize they could avoid DLC in the queue, but overall, there would be a significant decrease in players ill suited to be there. The ones who want to be there would be much more likely to be actual tanks, actual healers and know or want to know the mechanics.

Think about the logic here: Are people who just want to grab some XP and have no interest in the DLC going to queue for them? Hell no. You have potentially just removed all the fake tanks, fake healers and people who don't care about mechanics from an experience they have zero interest in. How is that a bad thing? I know there will be those who say it wouldn't be fair to those who want to do DLC dungeons, but that argument is illogical because do you really want that subset of players join you on your DLC advendures? Really? I'm sure some will say the queue will take longer. Okay. But getting into a DLC sooner with players ill suited to doing them would mean the dungeon itself takes longer, yes? So while waiting for the queue, you could have done other things. Instead, you get into a dungeon sooner but now waste more time in there with people who most likely would have opted out of that DLC dungeon if given the choice. Which is better? Longer wait or longer grind through the DLC dungeon?

I personally don't like doing DLC dungeons on randoms for THREE reasons:

• 1) If you end up with people who don't know them or don't want to explain them it sucks.
• 2) If you end up with fake tanks and/or fake healers, it especially sucks.
• 3) the current bonus XP reward is the same if you do spindleclutch as it is if you to any DLC. My math skills are not so bad that I don't see how incredibly insane that is. More of my time for what would be equate to half the bonus if you scale them by how long each dungeon takes. And half is optimistic. Tha'ts not counting that it could likely be a worse experience. Yeah, I'm not that crazy. TIme is XP.

And I know I am not the only one who dislikes doing DLC dungeons for their randoms for the exact same reasons. It's time for things to change. Doing just one of the changes I suggest would provide a much needed quality of life improvement for players.

Kwoung

Good luck with that, the huge imbalance in Time/Risk vs Reward has been pointed out numerous times, yet seems to always fall on deaf ears.

kojou

Are you talking about random veteran or random normal?

I would agree that a random normal DLC will take a little longer, but none of the dungeons on normal level are hard, or even require explanation of mechanics for that matter. Once you learn the game pretty well all dungeons on normal difficulty can be run solo (except for one that has 2 pads to prevent it...ahem... Direfrost).

I even prefer running normal dungeons with 4 DPS, because it makes it go so much faster.

If you are talking about random veteran, then I agree with you. The difficulty jump between base game dungeons and some DLC dungeons is pretty far. Especially if you are talking about doing the final boss on hard mode. Which to me is more of a issue with pledge rewards than Random Veteran rewards, but I digress...

I personally think the XP reward for doing random daily (Veteran or Normal) is fine, but the mailed in rewards are terrible for both. The gear is decon fodder, and I pretty much only do them for the 10 transmute crystals per character per day. I would fully support increasing the transmute reward for random veteran. I might actually run more of them then.

The problem with creating more queues is that you divide the players into more groups which makes the queues take longer. Imagine queuing as a DPS for a Random Veteran DLC Dungeon. It would probably take hours. They might as well not even have it in the game...

xXSilverDragonXx

kojou wrote: »

The problem with creating more queues is that you divide the players into more groups which makes the queues take longer. Imagine queuing as a DPS for a Random Veteran DLC Dungeon. It would probably take hours. They might as well not even have it in the game...

You really think a lot of people who are ill suited to vets are in the queue for vet randoms? You might stumble across them for pledges, but I doubt they would queue for random vets.

VaranisArano

The downside of removing DLC dungeons from the Random Daily is that people who want to do them have to wait a whole lot longer in queue for a full group to do a DLC dungeons.

The "Random" daily dungeon is used to backfill the other groups. ZOS isn't likely to hamstring that and make the paid DLC dungeon experience worse by adding long queue times on top of long dungeons just because some people don't want to play the content they paid for.

There's also already a way to avoid the DLC dungeons or other long/hard ones: queue for specific dungeons and uncheck the DLC. That won't get you the Random Daily rewards, but it will let you avoid dungeons you don't want to do.


Your idea about additional rewards for doing a DLC dungeon as your "random" daily dungeon is better. While it doesn't address the concerns of players who want to avoid the DLC dungeons entirely, I do think ZOS is more likely to offer extra rewards as a positive reinforcement to run the DLCs if they are seeing a problem.

That being said, ZOS does periodically reevaluate the DLC dungeons and nerf areas where they see that groups are failing too often. So this all depends on whether ZOS is in fact actually seeing a real problem to back up the complaints on the forums.

Silversmith

Theres a way to queue up for random dungeons and never get a DLC dungeon so your group can constantly burn through easy dungeons and get full rewards/xp.

xXSilverDragonXx

Silversmith wrote: »

Theres a way to queue up for random dungeons and never get a DLC dungeon so your group can constantly burn through easy dungeons and get full rewards/xp.

There have been ways mentioned but I have never seen one work. Only exception is with an under 45 toon, but then you have to find an under 45 toon to roll with. Or with a person who doesn't have plus. Same thing there. You have to find one.

Parasaurolophus

1. It has been explained many times that this is a reward for helping to complete dungeons and for making the content work for players. Dungeons are a big part of this game and should work.

2. Any experienced player has no difficulty with normal dungeons, even dlc ones.

3. There are several vanilla dungeons that rival dlc dungeons in length.

4. Dlc dungeons are good. They are much more interesting and beautiful than vanilla. It is also a great reason to fill out your stickerbook and possibly get a motif page. Is not it so?

5. If you don't want to try more difficult content, which can also be rushing in solo, why do you need experience and crystals?

6. The most important thing is optional. The game doesn't force you to do this. You can get experience and crystals in other ways. You can get keys and the same 10 crystals for pledges + key. It's just that rnd normal is the most convenient way to farm crystals for you and you just don't like the fact that sometimes it takes some effort. Many people here would really be happy if there was a "random grotto" button in the game. Do you really want it?

Yes, there is a problem in the game. The problem is the balance of rewards. But that's only because the game is already highly casual and many good rewards are effortless.

Sometimes I think that the most correct thing would be a significant nerf of all normal content. Those who really want to learn how to play have no problem with normal content right now. And so, normal content still does not teach how to play, it just serves to farm sets. And with all this, it seems there are quite a few people who cannot master the normal content. So I think it will be fine to make it as difficult as in a public dungeon.

kojou

xXSilverDragonXx wrote: »

kojou wrote: »

The problem with creating more queues is that you divide the players into more groups which makes the queues take longer. Imagine queuing as a DPS for a Random Veteran DLC Dungeon. It would probably take hours. They might as well not even have it in the game...

You really think a lot of people who are ill suited to vets are in the queue for vet randoms? You might stumble across them for pledges, but I doubt they would queue for random vets.

I'm not sure how you derived any implication about being suited for a dungeon would affect the queue time.

AlnilamE

xXSilverDragonXx wrote: »

Let me begin by saying that given that DLC dungeons are significantly longer in general than all the base game dungeons (barring COA II and possibly Selene's Web)

I've been timing my random dungeon runs over the last couple of weeks and this does not bear out.

DLC dungeons are, in general, longer than Fungal Grotto I, Spindleclutch I and Elden Hollow I, but after that, it comes down to the specific dungeon.

I don't have enough data yet, but some of the DLC I've run recently were very short, and in some cases, it can vary a lot based on whether everyone knows what they are doing or there is someone new that needs explanations or is maybe having technical difficultiers.

But the higher zone non-DLCs like Blessed Crucible, Direfrost Keep, Blackheart Haven and Vaults of Madness all had longer runs than for example Moonhunter Keep, Red Petal Bastion and Ruins of Mazzatun.

So that generalization that DLC dungeons are much longer than non-DLC ones does not pan out. SOME DLC dungeons are longer, but a lot of them are not. Some are quite short, and others fall within the average of non-DLCs if you take out the non-DLC "baby dungeons" that are shorter because they are the first dungeons players unlock.

Nanfoodle

Agreed

Nanfoodle

My normal way to do random daily is goto a starting zone like Glenumbra and yell. Looking for someone level 32 or under for a random daily. Normally I get a bite in under 5 min in prime time. Add them and Q for a random.

redspecter23

What if I told you that you can remove all the DLC from the queue, right now, with minimal time investment for about $5. No cheat. Completely legit. You'd probably be interested in that option, no?

You can get the ESO standard edition on sale, right now for $5. Using this account, level it up to 10 and group with yourself on your main account. As long as there is no automation of actions, there is no TOS violation. Let the level 10 sit there or even walk it outside the dungeon after the queue pops to prevent it from leveling and keep it level 10 forever. Simply queue and enjoy a stream of FG1, BC1 and Spindle 1 over and over.

Invite your friends or if you are so inclined, sell these fast runs in zone and make gold while you gain xp and transmutes.

hafgood

I just wish people would try the dlc dungeons, they might need learning but once learnt really don't take any longer than the name game dungeons.

People just need to stop being scared and actually do them

redspecter23

hafgood wrote: »

I just wish people would try the dlc dungeons, they might need learning but once learnt really don't take any longer than the name game dungeons.

People just need to stop being scared and actually do them

For some people, it's not about being scared. Non DLC are just plain faster overall. It could just be an efficiency thing.

Deflecting the issue by saying people are scared doesn't help the discussion.

hafgood

But the truth is DLC dungeons can be done as fast as the base game ones. So the speed argument is just tosh

So if they can be done as fast the reason people don't do them has to be fear.

So no I'm not deflecting, I'm putting forward a valid argument.

redspecter23

hafgood wrote: »

But the truth is DLC dungeons can be done as fast as the base game ones. So the speed argument is just tosh

So if they can be done as fast the reason people don't do them has to be fear.

So no I'm not deflecting, I'm putting forward a valid argument.

We'll agree to disagree on the speed argument.

Stating that a point is invalid doesn't make it invalid and it also doesn't automatically mean that fear is the only alternative.

Cobble123

Pretty sure the random dungeon function is not there to give you rewards. It’s there so that those of us who want to actually play the game - to actually have fun - can be paired together. It’s not there so that nimrods can just speed run to their daily crystals and xp. If you don’t want to be part of the having fun side of ESO then don’t join our queue.

Too many people have forgotten that this is a game, and not a daily chore.

redspecter23

Cobble123 wrote: »

Pretty sure the random dungeon function is not there to give you rewards. It’s there so that those of us who want to actually play the game - to actually have fun - can be paired together. It’s not there so that nimrods can just speed run to their daily crystals and xp. If you don’t want to be part of the having fun side of ESO then don’t join our queue.

Too many people have forgotten that this is a game, and not a daily chore.

Too many people also forget that there are different play styles and ways to play the game. Someone playing differently may be annoying to you, but that doesn't mean they aren't enjoying the game and having fun in their own way. Courtesy goes both ways.

There is room for discussion to help people more easily enjoy their game time, whether that's the way you play or the way someone else chooses to play.

Fun is subjective. Fun for you isn't the same as fun for someone else.

AlnilamE

redspecter23 wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

I just wish people would try the dlc dungeons, they might need learning but once learnt really don't take any longer than the name game dungeons.

People just need to stop being scared and actually do them

For some people, it's not about being scared. Non DLC are just plain faster overall. It could just be an efficiency thing.

Deflecting the issue by saying people are scared doesn't help the discussion.

*Some* DLC dungeons are long, like Lair of Maarselok and Unhallowed Grave (which are both fun dungeons). Others are super fast, like Red Petal Bastion and Moonhunter Keep. For some, it depends on the group. I ran Mazzatun in 15 minutes last week, but the time before that, there were a couple of players there who were new to the dungeon and one of them was having serious lag issues, so it took a bit longer (but still a pleasant run.

I'm finding that if you don't count the outliers on the long and short end of the dungeon set, the DLCs and the non-DLCs don't have that much of a time difference.

I'll try to aggregate it all when I have enough data.

kargen27

The daily random was created to help players fill a group for specific dungeons. The rewards is offered to entice players to join. If all the dungeons are not available in the queue really there is no reason to have the queue.

VaranisArano

redspecter23 wrote: »

Cobble123 wrote: »

Pretty sure the random dungeon function is not there to give you rewards. It’s there so that those of us who want to actually play the game - to actually have fun - can be paired together. It’s not there so that nimrods can just speed run to their daily crystals and xp. If you don’t want to be part of the having fun side of ESO then don’t join our queue.

Too many people have forgotten that this is a game, and not a daily chore.

Too many people also forget that there are different play styles and ways to play the game. Someone playing differently may be annoying to you, but that doesn't mean they aren't enjoying the game and having fun in their own way. Courtesy goes both ways.

There is room for discussion to help people more easily enjoy their game time, whether that's the way you play or the way someone else chooses to play.

Fun is subjective. Fun for you isn't the same as fun for someone else.

By the same token, "fun" is not a measure of whether or not a part of the game is working as intended.

It may not be fun for certain players to get DLC dungeons in their Random Daily Dungeon pool because they subscribe, but it is working as intended nonetheless.

peacenote

The queue is called random for a reason. One should not queue for a random dungeon if they aren't willing to roll the dice and.... get a random dungeon.

Also people keep forgetting that the older dungeons used to take longer to complete. It is mainly power creep that has caused DLC dungeons to seem longer and harder. To a certain extent they are the length older dungeons used to be. City of Ash II is LONG!

Instead I think DLC dungeons should be added to the random queue for non subscribers 6 months or a year after release. I think there should be extra rewards for the newest dungeons only, to help encourage non subs to buy them.

Be happy when you get an "easy" one -- it is like getting the gear drop you need on the first run. You're not entitled to this experience but you're having a lucky day when it happens.

And btw... I subscribe and enjoy getting all of the dungeons in my random queue. If I am too busy and I need a quick dungeon I queue up only for the non- DLC pledges and accept that I miss out on the daily random rewards. I don't see a lot of people complaining that it takes a varying amount of time to get to Tier 1 in Cyrodiil. I really don't understand why folks think the PvE experience should be a fixed time for a fixed reward. Random is BUILT INTO THE NAME!

redspecter23

VaranisArano wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Cobble123 wrote: »

Pretty sure the random dungeon function is not there to give you rewards. It’s there so that those of us who want to actually play the game - to actually have fun - can be paired together. It’s not there so that nimrods can just speed run to their daily crystals and xp. If you don’t want to be part of the having fun side of ESO then don’t join our queue.

Too many people have forgotten that this is a game, and not a daily chore.

Too many people also forget that there are different play styles and ways to play the game. Someone playing differently may be annoying to you, but that doesn't mean they aren't enjoying the game and having fun in their own way. Courtesy goes both ways.

There is room for discussion to help people more easily enjoy their game time, whether that's the way you play or the way someone else chooses to play.

Fun is subjective. Fun for you isn't the same as fun for someone else.

By the same token, "fun" is not a measure of whether or not a part of the game is working as intended.

It may not be fun for certain players to get DLC dungeons in their Random Daily Dungeon pool because they subscribe, but it is working as intended nonetheless.

I agree that it's working as intended. The issue I have is players being "rewarded" with faster, easier queues by deciding not to subscribe. There is, for some people, a negative penalty attached to the ESO+ sub. The sub should be all positive.

To be fair, I'd also be fine with throwing all the DLC into the random queue whether you have the DLC or not, which also has issues. It would also be acceptable to rotate older DLC into the "free" category after maybe 2 years? I could also see dungeon DLC changed to "free" content, but have ZOS monetize the collector editions of those dungeon DLC with a few more incentives in order to sell that pack to both free and ESO+ players to negate any potential loss.

While the system is currently working as intended, it does contain broken parts. Finding some way to clean up the broken areas is a good area to explore.

VaranisArano

redspecter23 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

Cobble123 wrote: »

Pretty sure the random dungeon function is not there to give you rewards. It’s there so that those of us who want to actually play the game - to actually have fun - can be paired together. It’s not there so that nimrods can just speed run to their daily crystals and xp. If you don’t want to be part of the having fun side of ESO then don’t join our queue.

Too many people have forgotten that this is a game, and not a daily chore.

Too many people also forget that there are different play styles and ways to play the game. Someone playing differently may be annoying to you, but that doesn't mean they aren't enjoying the game and having fun in their own way. Courtesy goes both ways.

There is room for discussion to help people more easily enjoy their game time, whether that's the way you play or the way someone else chooses to play.

Fun is subjective. Fun for you isn't the same as fun for someone else.

By the same token, "fun" is not a measure of whether or not a part of the game is working as intended.

It may not be fun for certain players to get DLC dungeons in their Random Daily Dungeon pool because they subscribe, but it is working as intended nonetheless.

I agree that it's working as intended. The issue I have is players being "rewarded" with faster, easier queues by deciding not to subscribe. There is, for some people, a negative penalty attached to the ESO+ sub. The sub should be all positive.

To be fair, I'd also be fine with throwing all the DLC into the random queue whether you have the DLC or not, which also has issues. It would also be acceptable to rotate older DLC into the "free" category after maybe 2 years? I could also see dungeon DLC changed to "free" content, but have ZOS monetize the collector editions of those dungeon DLC with a few more incentives in order to sell that pack to both free and ESO+ players to negate any potential loss.

While the system is currently working as intended, it does contain broken parts. Finding some way to clean up the broken areas is a good area to explore.

I suspect that ZOS doesn't consider players getting to play the dungeons they paid for as a negative or a broken part of the system. Nor is it a negative for all players - only the ones who want to avoid the DLC dungeons in their Daily Random for various reasons.

I'll take this moment to remind everyone that it's not the "Daily Guaranteed Quick n' Easy Dungeon."

There's just not any incentive for ZOS to try to appease some customers who want to pick and choose the benefits of their subscription because they perceive one of them as a negative. Especially not when the proposed changes to ESO+ are going to result in less value to ESO+ over time, lost revenue from dungeon DLC, or longer DLC queue times.


From a wider point of view, players who don't own the DLC dungeons might be "rewarded" with only base game dungeons in their Random queue. However, they also miss out on the rewards of those dungeons - the sets, the monster helms, the motifs, and the pledges.

It's only a "reward" when looked at it through the extremely narrow lens of trying to min-max one's Daily Random Dungeon for faster, easier transmute crystals...and even then, a solution exists. You can group up with one person who doesn't own the DLC and you won't get one for your daily random.