ZOS about the guild trader system

Fennwitty

Auztinito wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

Khajiit motif on ps EU goes for like 250 to 400 gold, there is no cartel, there is no group of people getting together to fix prices. There is no way to drive the price to 10k

And the whole price fix argument falls down because of guild traders. There are a lot of small guilds with traders where people price at whatever price they want. They are not subject to any kind of price fixing. If anything they are regularly scalped for underpriced stuff for those who play the trading game to try to sell on main traders.

Yes prices in the main hubs may be more expensive but then they have higher costs.

Would an auction house solve this. Simply put no. Those with lots of money would camp the auction house and hoover up low priced items causing them to go up in price (not in value as value is relative). As has been explained many times an AH is a lot easier to manipulate than the guild trader system we have.

Look through any of the threads on the subject if you don't believe me, it's been a while since we had one but they all end the same way.

Those pro AH maintaining its the best option, those opposed maintaining the guild trader system is best. And then Zos close the thread.

How is it easier to manipulate an AH opposed to this?

One is closed off and the other is open to everyone. If it was opened up, it’d take more than one person to flip and corner an item. It seriously would because it’s open to EVERYONE. Meaning supply of something won’t stop unless players stop supplying which is unlikely if you have a healthy population of new/returning players.

However, in a closed market. You’d only need 2-3 guilds at the most (Remember: We can join up to 5 guilds) to corner that area of the market on something that should be relatively cheap. Also, supply will be much slower/stop because of trends/monopolies because the market is closed off to those that would supply it.

Not to mention, fast travel cost gold so just porting to multiple places looking for something like fishing bait is going to cost you more gold and/or time literally hindering your progress.

Let’s not forget, Khajiit Motif shouldn’t even cost 250-400 gold to start with. Honestly, that should be 25-75 gold for how old it is.

I imagine it would be easier at a central auction house because I could roll up to it with 15 million gold in my pocket, buy out 100% of the listings for item X every day or so, and then relist them all at triple the price they were originally. I now control 90% of the easily available world's supply.

People still try it with decentralized today, but at least it takes them hours and hours.

VaranisArano

Auztinito wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

Buyers always have a say whether it is an AH or.guild trader, to say otherwise is complete and utter tosh.

If you don't like the price don't pay the price. Simple.

And if you don't like the price but still want it go farm it.

If buyers don't buy, sellers don't sell, sellers then have to lower their prices, especially as more of the item comes onto the market, any decent seller will see the items not selling at price A and so will list at slightly less, and so on, prices fall as more product comes to the market.

There was a recent thread from a PvPer screaming about the price fall in Timbercrow outfits. He failed to understand that many farmed it themselves as well as bought from traders and therefore prices fell.

With the ring, if its an overland set you just need to run dolmens in the zone it drops and you will have it within a day, then you just need to improve it, and that's an entirely different story, purple and gold mats cost a lot of money and so make then expensive to buy on traders.

Except the only people buying are the ones with large amounts of gold. How do you farm gathering mats for alchemy or provisioning? You don’t. It’s RNG. How does one farm Antiquities without breaking their story mode progression because they need to unlock it in Greymoor zone.

Buyers have less say because the ones profiting are the ones buying whereas the rest of the players don’t buy/suck it up. If they went with an AH, you’d see cheaper items. I mean there is no stopping guilds from making something like Khajiit Motif cost 10k. Why? Guilds regularly work together to keep items overpriced or stagnant so that they can still profit off of old items to hustle other players whereas in a AH that wouldn’t happen unless an entire server agreed to do it.

Uh...you farm Alchemy reagents by running around the zones picking them up. If you need flowers, the Hollow City is fantastic for it. That's my preferred farming ground for cornflower.

Provisioning you just do a ton of writs and you get way, way more ingredients than you use. That's why most provisioning mats are dirt cheap on the trader. The ones that aren't...how do you think they made it on the market? Someone stood there fishing.

And I'll leave it up to you whether or not you want to unlock Antiquities with a quick trip into Solitude or not. That's up to you - I unlocked Antiquities without needing to do any of the zone story.

No offense, but what this sounds like is:

"How do you I farm gathering mats for alchemy or provisioning? You I don’t."

Most of my early fortune came from selling flowers (sold Columbine for 20 gold apiece at first, ), perfect roe, and later nirncrux from Craglorn and other raw materials. No flipping. All farming.

It's up to you if you want to farm for items or not, but please, recognize that as your choice. If you don't want to farm Hollow City for your own cornflower, then I guess you'll just have to pay whatever price the market at large will bear. And if that price is higher than you want to pay, I guess you can reevaluate your willingness to farm or just do without. Or complain on the forums. Whatever floats your boat.

(No one who has 10k gold is going to buy a blue Khajiit Motif for 10k gold unless it's a complete lark. Maybe try a different example of guilds colluding to keep prices high, since you think it's having a real impact on buyers?)

VaranisArano

Auztinito wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

Khajiit motif on ps EU goes for like 250 to 400 gold, there is no cartel, there is no group of people getting together to fix prices. There is no way to drive the price to 10k

And the whole price fix argument falls down because of guild traders. There are a lot of small guilds with traders where people price at whatever price they want. They are not subject to any kind of price fixing. If anything they are regularly scalped for underpriced stuff for those who play the trading game to try to sell on main traders.

Yes prices in the main hubs may be more expensive but then they have higher costs.

Would an auction house solve this. Simply put no. Those with lots of money would camp the auction house and hoover up low priced items causing them to go up in price (not in value as value is relative). As has been explained many times an AH is a lot easier to manipulate than the guild trader system we have.

Look through any of the threads on the subject if you don't believe me, it's been a while since we had one but they all end the same way.

Those pro AH maintaining its the best option, those opposed maintaining the guild trader system is best. And then Zos close the thread.

Let’s not forget, Khajiit Motif shouldn’t even cost 250-400 gold to start with. Honestly, that should be 25-75 gold for how old it is.

On PC/NA, I see a number of listing that range from 30-150 gold.

There's also a bunch of listing in the 500-1500 gold range that I'd be surprised if they sold. It's not really inflating prices if they don't sell.

belial5221_ESO

Auztinito wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

Khajiit motif on ps EU goes for like 250 to 400 gold, there is no cartel, there is no group of people getting together to fix prices. There is no way to drive the price to 10k

And the whole price fix argument falls down because of guild traders. There are a lot of small guilds with traders where people price at whatever price they want. They are not subject to any kind of price fixing. If anything they are regularly scalped for underpriced stuff for those who play the trading game to try to sell on main traders.

Yes prices in the main hubs may be more expensive but then they have higher costs.

Would an auction house solve this. Simply put no. Those with lots of money would camp the auction house and hoover up low priced items causing them to go up in price (not in value as value is relative). As has been explained many times an AH is a lot easier to manipulate than the guild trader system we have.

Look through any of the threads on the subject if you don't believe me, it's been a while since we had one but they all end the same way.

Those pro AH maintaining its the best option, those opposed maintaining the guild trader system is best. And then Zos close the thread.

How is it easier to manipulate an AH opposed to this?

One is closed off and the other is open to everyone. If it was opened up, it’d take more than one person to flip and corner an item. It seriously would because it’s open to EVERYONE. Meaning supply of something won’t stop unless players stop supplying which is unlikely if you have a healthy population of new/returning players.

However, in a closed market. You’d only need 2-3 guilds at the most (Remember: We can join up to 5 guilds) to corner that area of the market on something that should be relatively cheap. Also, supply will be much slower/stop because of trends/monopolies because the market is closed off to those that would supply it.

Not to mention, fast travel cost gold so just porting to multiple places looking for something like fishing bait is going to cost you more gold and/or time literally hindering your progress.

Let’s not forget, Khajiit Motif shouldn’t even cost 250-400 gold to start with. Honestly, that should be 25-75 gold for how old it is.

Central AH opens up easy revenue for botters,and more will flood in.Right now there's very few botters on PC servers.Prices are stable on most things right now,and as people learn how things work,you can find deals,and quickly find what you want.

Fast travel does cost gold,but traders are near wayshrines which are free to use.

You can find blue motifs for about 50-100g if you look.Though I think the blue motifs shold be automatically known at start,or after completing all craft certifications..

AlnilamE

Auztinito wrote: »

Centralized AH is like your standard capitalism with the caveat that any and everyone can partake at no cost.

I'm sorry, but I played GW2, Secret World Legednds and BDO, all of which have some form of AH, and none of those were at "no cost". All of them have fees that are higher than what ESO's system charges (35% in the case of BDO).

Just because you are not contributing it towards a trader bid doesn't mean it's not part of those games' gold sinks.

kargen27

A central auction house would cause rare items to increase in price and it would be easier for a couple of people to control/manipulate the price of rare items. Instead of needing to visit over 200 locations to try and purchase all of one rare item they could sit in one spot.

Trade guilds are advertising for members all the time and many have very low or no dues requirements. Even in a guild with no trader you can still list items that the rest of the guild can see. The guild system has set up tiers of trading levels. A beginning player can sell to vendors or in zone. Someone kind of interested in trading can join a social guild that sometimes gets a trader. The players that want to treat trading like end game have the trade guilds that get the premier sites each week. Any player can participate at the level that fits them best.

Would be nice if there were some quality of life changes to the current system but for the most part it works really well. Inflation is held in check and prices vary depending on ever changing supply and demand. You can get everything you need at a decent price and most of what you want at various prices.

Jeremy

Auztinito wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

Khajiit motif on ps EU goes for like 250 to 400 gold, there is no cartel, there is no group of people getting together to fix prices. There is no way to drive the price to 10k

And the whole price fix argument falls down because of guild traders. There are a lot of small guilds with traders where people price at whatever price they want. They are not subject to any kind of price fixing. If anything they are regularly scalped for underpriced stuff for those who play the trading game to try to sell on main traders.

Yes prices in the main hubs may be more expensive but then they have higher costs.

Would an auction house solve this. Simply put no. Those with lots of money would camp the auction house and hoover up low priced items causing them to go up in price (not in value as value is relative). As has been explained many times an AH is a lot easier to manipulate than the guild trader system we have.

Look through any of the threads on the subject if you don't believe me, it's been a while since we had one but they all end the same way.

Those pro AH maintaining its the best option, those opposed maintaining the guild trader system is best. And then Zos close the thread.

How is it easier to manipulate an AH opposed to this?

It's not, especially with tools like TTC. I've never seen more flipping go on than I have on this game.

Bottom line: the larger and more free the market is, the harder it is to manipulate and control. That is as true for video game economies as it is for real life ones.

Auztinito

Fennwitty wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

Khajiit motif on ps EU goes for like 250 to 400 gold, there is no cartel, there is no group of people getting together to fix prices. There is no way to drive the price to 10k

And the whole price fix argument falls down because of guild traders. There are a lot of small guilds with traders where people price at whatever price they want. They are not subject to any kind of price fixing. If anything they are regularly scalped for underpriced stuff for those who play the trading game to try to sell on main traders.

Yes prices in the main hubs may be more expensive but then they have higher costs.

Would an auction house solve this. Simply put no. Those with lots of money would camp the auction house and hoover up low priced items causing them to go up in price (not in value as value is relative). As has been explained many times an AH is a lot easier to manipulate than the guild trader system we have.

Look through any of the threads on the subject if you don't believe me, it's been a while since we had one but they all end the same way.

Those pro AH maintaining its the best option, those opposed maintaining the guild trader system is best. And then Zos close the thread.

How is it easier to manipulate an AH opposed to this?

One is closed off and the other is open to everyone. If it was opened up, it’d take more than one person to flip and corner an item. It seriously would because it’s open to EVERYONE. Meaning supply of something won’t stop unless players stop supplying which is unlikely if you have a healthy population of new/returning players.

However, in a closed market. You’d only need 2-3 guilds at the most (Remember: We can join up to 5 guilds) to corner that area of the market on something that should be relatively cheap. Also, supply will be much slower/stop because of trends/monopolies because the market is closed off to those that would supply it.

Not to mention, fast travel cost gold so just porting to multiple places looking for something like fishing bait is going to cost you more gold and/or time literally hindering your progress.

Let’s not forget, Khajiit Motif shouldn’t even cost 250-400 gold to start with. Honestly, that should be 25-75 gold for how old it is.

I imagine it would be easier at a central auction house because I could roll up to it with 15 million gold in my pocket, buy out 100% of the listings for item X every day or so, and then relist them all at triple the price they were originally. I now control 90% of the easily available world's supply.

People still try it with decentralized today, but at least it takes them hours and hours.

Except you’d have to constantly keep buying out everything and try flipping it because the supply doesn’t stop because a larger population will have access to sell. It would be a net loss.

Auztinito

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

Buyers always have a say whether it is an AH or.guild trader, to say otherwise is complete and utter tosh.

If you don't like the price don't pay the price. Simple.

And if you don't like the price but still want it go farm it.

If buyers don't buy, sellers don't sell, sellers then have to lower their prices, especially as more of the item comes onto the market, any decent seller will see the items not selling at price A and so will list at slightly less, and so on, prices fall as more product comes to the market.

There was a recent thread from a PvPer screaming about the price fall in Timbercrow outfits. He failed to understand that many farmed it themselves as well as bought from traders and therefore prices fell.

With the ring, if its an overland set you just need to run dolmens in the zone it drops and you will have it within a day, then you just need to improve it, and that's an entirely different story, purple and gold mats cost a lot of money and so make then expensive to buy on traders.

Except the only people buying are the ones with large amounts of gold. How do you farm gathering mats for alchemy or provisioning? You don’t. It’s RNG. How does one farm Antiquities without breaking their story mode progression because they need to unlock it in Greymoor zone.

Buyers have less say because the ones profiting are the ones buying whereas the rest of the players don’t buy/suck it up. If they went with an AH, you’d see cheaper items. I mean there is no stopping guilds from making something like Khajiit Motif cost 10k. Why? Guilds regularly work together to keep items overpriced or stagnant so that they can still profit off of old items to hustle other players whereas in a AH that wouldn’t happen unless an entire server agreed to do it.

Uh...you farm Alchemy reagents by running around the zones picking them up. If you need flowers, the Hollow City is fantastic for it. That's my preferred farming ground for cornflower.

Provisioning you just do a ton of writs and you get way, way more ingredients than you use. That's why most provisioning mats are dirt cheap on the trader. The ones that aren't...how do you think they made it on the market? Someone stood there fishing.

And I'll leave it up to you whether or not you want to unlock Antiquities with a quick trip into Solitude or not. That's up to you - I unlocked Antiquities without needing to do any of the zone story.

No offense, but what this sounds like is:

"How do you I farm gathering mats for alchemy or provisioning? You I don’t."

Most of my early fortune came from selling flowers (sold Columbine for 20 gold apiece at first, ), perfect roe, and later nirncrux from Craglorn and other raw materials. No flipping. All farming.

It's up to you if you want to farm for items or not, but please, recognize that as your choice. If you don't want to farm Hollow City for your own cornflower, then I guess you'll just have to pay whatever price the market at large will bear. And if that price is higher than you want to pay, I guess you can reevaluate your willingness to farm or just do without. Or complain on the forums. Whatever floats your boat.

(No one who has 10k gold is going to buy a blue Khajiit Motif for 10k gold unless it's a complete lark. Maybe try a different example of guilds colluding to keep prices high, since you think it's having a real impact on buyers?)

Farming flowers is still rng because you’re not guaranteed specific flowers/mats because nodes are random. Really? I consistently see basic mats that you can get from grocers cost much more at guild traders.

Khajiit Motif is an example of what guild traders could and have done on ESO.

Auztinito

kargen27 wrote: »

A central auction house would cause rare items to increase in price and it would be easier for a couple of people to control/manipulate the price of rare items. Instead of needing to visit over 200 locations to try and purchase all of one rare item they could sit in one spot.

Trade guilds are advertising for members all the time and many have very low or no dues requirements. Even in a guild with no trader you can still list items that the rest of the guild can see. The guild system has set up tiers of trading levels. A beginning player can sell to vendors or in zone. Someone kind of interested in trading can join a social guild that sometimes gets a trader. The players that want to treat trading like end game have the trade guilds that get the premier sites each week. Any player can participate at the level that fits them best.

Would be nice if there were some quality of life changes to the current system but for the most part it works really well. Inflation is held in check and prices vary depending on ever changing supply and demand. You can get everything you need at a decent price and most of what you want at various prices.

Rare items are already usually monopolized by someone and made very expensive anyway. Not to mention, it’s actually just as easy if not easier to control an entire market because all they need to do is check trader inventory around their vendor. Also, they have and do artificially drive up prices on non-rare items.

Auztinito

AlnilamE wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

Centralized AH is like your standard capitalism with the caveat that any and everyone can partake at no cost.

I'm sorry, but I played GW2, Secret World Legednds and BDO, all of which have some form of AH, and none of those were at "no cost". All of them have fees that are higher than what ESO's system charges (35% in the case of BDO).

Just because you are not contributing it towards a trader bid doesn't mean it's not part of those games' gold sinks.

You cite BDO. The game market on there has set values per item that has a supply/demand system that will decrease/increase the price range of items. You pay a tax per sale on here. What I meant by at “no cost”. I meant you didn’t have to rely on a guild having a trader or joining a guild that requires 20k+ dues everyday/week.

JKorr

Auztinito wrote: »

AJones43865 wrote: »

I think most people agree that the trading system in ESO is clunky, expensive to participate in, and generally a bit inconvenient. But the system also curtails a lot of price gouging and price fixing like happens with a centralized auction house.

So I kinda feel like we should just accept the good with the bad with the system.

Price fixing? You mean like deflating/inflating prices artificially or like flipping items by buying them out?
If so, they already do that with the current system. It behave no different than a AH, it’s just closed off and isolated where “buyers” have no say.

Centralized AH is like your standard capitalism with the caveat that any and everyone can partake at no cost.

Guild Trader is like the rich stock trading you see in movies where they do shady things like buy out something to flip and set a new price to misdirect others or set a new standard price that buyers have no say in.

One auction house; one place to buy items. Nothing to stop anyone with the gold from buying all of item X, then relisting it at a price they choose.

Guild traders, over 200 in-game. Someone who is really really really determined might be able to hit all the locations and buy item X in order to corner the market and flip it for profit, but they'll have to work at it.

Buyers absolutely have a say; if an item is priced stupidly high, buyers can decide it isn't worth it, and they won't buy it. Doesn't matter what the seller wants; a buyer can't be forced to buy.

I really don't like pvp and avoid it like it is the bubonic plague. But I wanted the faction motifs for my master crafter. No way I'd ever manage to get all the motifs for all three factions because Cyrodiil/pvp.....unless...I buy them from guild traders. I didn't buy the stupid high-priced ones, I looked at any trader I passed while questing/pve. I didn't mind the prices because the motifs I'd never get were worth the cost *for me*. A guildie said I paid too much. I was happy with the price.

I belong to 5 guilds. One is my trading guild. The others are social guilds. None of them have dues or sales requirements. None of them dictate the prices I can list my items at. Every one of them has a trader. Voluntary raffles and auctions for some, a couple are mostly the officers paying for the trader. Doing casual trading on my trading guild has brought a very satisfactory bank balance. If I was actually ambitious and worked at filling all the trading slots for all my guilds, I'd have a lot more. I'm not getting the "closed and isolated" thing actually. The high end Elder Scrolls Trading Online players have high end trading guilds, and those do charge dues and have a sales requirement. But those are also the players who actually play for the trading game.

merpins

Yeah, and a gold war maiden's ring costs 750k-1mil on pc na. It's a bit excessive, but gold mats for rings are also super expensive. Sure, the market is a bit inflated, but at least it's not terrible.

Here's the short of it, using an example from another game: back in 2015ish, maplestory (a 2d sidescroller mmo that people may remember) changed their market from a free market system to an auction house system. This came with benefits and detriments. On one hand, due to the monetization of that game, by switching to an auction house, it opened merching up to the playerbase since before you had to spend real money to get a merchant stall. The marketplace was in a single location that you could access from any town, and you had to go through dozens of areas looking through individual player's wares. You had to hunt for what you wanted. This opens up the ability to find good or great deals on items to then flip them. But by switching to an auction house system, that kind of flipping of items went away for most players, making it so only bots or people that have the time to constantly refresh the market 24/7 could flip by buying good deals, since they'd sell the moment they were listed.

There are pros and cons to having an auction house. One pro could be you don't need to join a guild to do it or even being able to do it from any bank. But cheaper prices aren't particularly a pro. It's unlikely prices will drop much, just that they'll equalize. If you notice, many items are more expensive in high traffic areas like Rawl'kha, and by making an auction house, those prices would probably drop while the prices of the cheapest areas would rise, meeting in the middle. It won't lower prices most likely, but just make it more consistent and easier to see the trend of inflation.

Hotdog_23

Long and short of it is PC players for the most part is happy with the guild traders because they have access to add-on’s that make it more of a global auction house. Console player prefer an Auction house because they don’t have access to add-ons or at least think we do.

My 2 cents as a console player, ZOS will need to do something eventually because at over 200 guild traders now and growing. It takes hours just to visit each one in the game to see what they have for sell much less remembering who had what and at what price.

Stay safe and Happy Holidays

hafgood

Console player here and I don't want an auction house and I know many who feel the same way. So please don't put this on us

Meiox

redspecter23 wrote: »

What makes you think that a global auction house would lead to better prices on this ring?

ZOS doesn't tell players what to post items for. Players do that.

Just because it's posted for that price, it doesn't mean it's worth that much. It also doesn't mean it isn't worth that much.

Your argument is, Ring is too much, therefore the guild trader system is bad. I'm not quite seeing the logic in that statement.

On a global auction house, you can compare the price with all sellers at once.
With the guild trader system you would have to travel to all guild traders to compare prices, which would take too much time, at least for me.

And don't talk about TTC, 99% of the time, when I travel to the guild trader the item has allready been sold^^

VaranisArano

Auztinito wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

Buyers always have a say whether it is an AH or.guild trader, to say otherwise is complete and utter tosh.

If you don't like the price don't pay the price. Simple.

And if you don't like the price but still want it go farm it.

If buyers don't buy, sellers don't sell, sellers then have to lower their prices, especially as more of the item comes onto the market, any decent seller will see the items not selling at price A and so will list at slightly less, and so on, prices fall as more product comes to the market.

There was a recent thread from a PvPer screaming about the price fall in Timbercrow outfits. He failed to understand that many farmed it themselves as well as bought from traders and therefore prices fell.

With the ring, if its an overland set you just need to run dolmens in the zone it drops and you will have it within a day, then you just need to improve it, and that's an entirely different story, purple and gold mats cost a lot of money and so make then expensive to buy on traders.

Except the only people buying are the ones with large amounts of gold. How do you farm gathering mats for alchemy or provisioning? You don’t. It’s RNG. How does one farm Antiquities without breaking their story mode progression because they need to unlock it in Greymoor zone.

Buyers have less say because the ones profiting are the ones buying whereas the rest of the players don’t buy/suck it up. If they went with an AH, you’d see cheaper items. I mean there is no stopping guilds from making something like Khajiit Motif cost 10k. Why? Guilds regularly work together to keep items overpriced or stagnant so that they can still profit off of old items to hustle other players whereas in a AH that wouldn’t happen unless an entire server agreed to do it.

Uh...you farm Alchemy reagents by running around the zones picking them up. If you need flowers, the Hollow City is fantastic for it. That's my preferred farming ground for cornflower.

Provisioning you just do a ton of writs and you get way, way more ingredients than you use. That's why most provisioning mats are dirt cheap on the trader. The ones that aren't...how do you think they made it on the market? Someone stood there fishing.

And I'll leave it up to you whether or not you want to unlock Antiquities with a quick trip into Solitude or not. That's up to you - I unlocked Antiquities without needing to do any of the zone story.

No offense, but what this sounds like is:

"How do you I farm gathering mats for alchemy or provisioning? You I don’t."

Most of my early fortune came from selling flowers (sold Columbine for 20 gold apiece at first, ), perfect roe, and later nirncrux from Craglorn and other raw materials. No flipping. All farming.

It's up to you if you want to farm for items or not, but please, recognize that as your choice. If you don't want to farm Hollow City for your own cornflower, then I guess you'll just have to pay whatever price the market at large will bear. And if that price is higher than you want to pay, I guess you can reevaluate your willingness to farm or just do without. Or complain on the forums. Whatever floats your boat.

(No one who has 10k gold is going to buy a blue Khajiit Motif for 10k gold unless it's a complete lark. Maybe try a different example of guilds colluding to keep prices high, since you think it's having a real impact on buyers?)

Farming flowers is still rng because you’re not guaranteed specific flowers/mats because nodes are random. Really? I consistently see basic mats that you can get from grocers cost much more at guild traders.

Khajiit Motif is an example of what guild traders could and have done on ESO.

I don't understand your point about RNG. If you expect to pick a handful of flowers at a time and get all cornflower, no, that's not going to happen.

If you actually farm the same route for a while and pick up everything, like I do when I'm running circles around the Hollow City, you get plenty of every flower type.

Again, this is something I do fairly regularly when I want to make gold in ESO. Moreover, alchemy reagents are very accessible to brand new players to farm and sell, even if they don't hop straight over to the Hollow City. All flowers sell well, even if not for the high prices that columbine and cornflower usually command.

I'm sorry, but RNG is no excuse. If you don't want to farm, you don't have to, but you don't really have much ground to complain about the price then. People who are willing to farm set the price. People who aren't willing to farm have to pay whatever price the market will bear.

I mean, someone picked all that cornflower out of the ground along with all the other reagents you buy or that go into the potions you buy. Why can't it be you, if you think the price is too high?

("I don't want to" is a valid answer.)

xilfxlegion

Auztinito wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

Buyers always have a say whether it is an AH or.guild trader, to say otherwise is complete and utter tosh.

If you don't like the price don't pay the price. Simple.

And if you don't like the price but still want it go farm it.

If buyers don't buy, sellers don't sell, sellers then have to lower their prices, especially as more of the item comes onto the market, any decent seller will see the items not selling at price A and so will list at slightly less, and so on, prices fall as more product comes to the market.

There was a recent thread from a PvPer screaming about the price fall in Timbercrow outfits. He failed to understand that many farmed it themselves as well as bought from traders and therefore prices fell.

With the ring, if its an overland set you just need to run dolmens in the zone it drops and you will have it within a day, then you just need to improve it, and that's an entirely different story, purple and gold mats cost a lot of money and so make then expensive to buy on traders.

Except the only people buying are the ones with large amounts of gold. How do you farm gathering mats for alchemy or provisioning? You don’t. It’s RNG. How does one farm Antiquities without breaking their story mode progression because they need to unlock it in Greymoor zone.

Buyers have less say because the ones profiting are the ones buying whereas the rest of the players don’t buy/suck it up. If they went with an AH, you’d see cheaper items. I mean there is no stopping guilds from making something like Khajiit Motif cost 10k. Why? Guilds regularly work together to keep items overpriced or stagnant so that they can still profit off of old items to hustle other players whereas in a AH that wouldn’t happen unless an entire server agreed to do it.

buyers have ALL of the say. literally.

AlnilamE

Auztinito wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

Centralized AH is like your standard capitalism with the caveat that any and everyone can partake at no cost.

I'm sorry, but I played GW2, Secret World Legednds and BDO, all of which have some form of AH, and none of those were at "no cost". All of them have fees that are higher than what ESO's system charges (35% in the case of BDO).

Just because you are not contributing it towards a trader bid doesn't mean it's not part of those games' gold sinks.

You cite BDO. The game market on there has set values per item that has a supply/demand system that will decrease/increase the price range of items. You pay a tax per sale on here. What I meant by at “no cost”. I meant you didn’t have to rely on a guild having a trader or joining a guild that requires 20k+ dues everyday/week.

OK, but I just looked at my sales for the last 30 days, and looking at my taxes paid, doubling that to account for the 3.5% that goes into the void and pretending I paid 10k a week to each of my 2 trading guilds (which I didn't), that total just under 9% of the sales amount.

Which is a lot less than 35%, or even 15.5% if you are willing to pay real money to lower your in-game tax.

So you're saying it's ok to pay more, as long as it's not going to contributing to maintaining a guild trader?

buttaface

Jeremy wrote: »

Be prepared: because you're about to be in the crosshairs of everyone who profits off the current system. haha

You just explained all the threads on this topic in this game and all the other games with intentionally/incompetently busted trading systems, and also the immense, near instant fallacious rationalizations those who make huge ingame currency on such systems employ.

Kwoung

buttaface wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Be prepared: because you're about to be in the crosshairs of everyone who profits off the current system. haha

You just explained all the threads on this topic in this game and all the other games with intentionally/incompetently busted trading systems, and also the immense, near instant fallacious rationalizations those who make huge ingame currency on such systems employ.

I have never experienced a game that has had a completely decent trading system, they simply don't exist. Some may say game X or Y was great, but that is only from that persons perspective. Game X catered to sellers, so they like it, game Y to buyers, so they liked it, some come close to catering to both... ESO comes to mind, but it has issues as well... almost all of which are caused by the players themselves. No one gets rich from trading in games like BDO as they set the prices, auction houses suck because you generally out level the item or find it for instant sale before you even know if your bid won it. Heck, in BDO I couldn't even trade with my wife when one of us got something the other could use, because they simply don't allow it. It is there way of combating bots, which while fairly effective for that, makes trading a complete hassle and leaves a sour taste, especially when your mate just looted a rare item you could use.

The main gripe I see in ESO is, "I don't want to earn gold or play the trade part of the game, so I can't afford anything", which most mistakenly translate into a broken guild trader system, which it isn't. Everyone is meant to earn gold in ESO and ZOS makes it very easy to do so, starting at level 1. If someone chooses to ignore that part of the gameplay, they don't get to have the nice things, unless they go earn/farm them. It is much akin to saying I choose to not collect skyshards or do zone quests, but should still get the skillpoints they offer... Sounds kinda dumb right? So while yes, you can earn a pittance selling stuff to NPC merchants because you are "sticking it to the man" and choose to not partake in the trade part of the game... but that is a players personal choice and no AH or different system will help that player be able to buy what they want, especially if it is a rarer high end expensive item.

Auztinito

AlnilamE wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

AlnilamE wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

Centralized AH is like your standard capitalism with the caveat that any and everyone can partake at no cost.

I'm sorry, but I played GW2, Secret World Legednds and BDO, all of which have some form of AH, and none of those were at "no cost". All of them have fees that are higher than what ESO's system charges (35% in the case of BDO).

Just because you are not contributing it towards a trader bid doesn't mean it's not part of those games' gold sinks.

You cite BDO. The game market on there has set values per item that has a supply/demand system that will decrease/increase the price range of items. You pay a tax per sale on here. What I meant by at “no cost”. I meant you didn’t have to rely on a guild having a trader or joining a guild that requires 20k+ dues everyday/week.

OK, but I just looked at my sales for the last 30 days, and looking at my taxes paid, doubling that to account for the 3.5% that goes into the void and pretending I paid 10k a week to each of my 2 trading guilds (which I didn't), that total just under 9% of the sales amount.

Which is a lot less than 35%, or even 15.5% if you are willing to pay real money to lower your in-game tax.

So you're saying it's ok to pay more, as long as it's not going to contributing to maintaining a guild trader?

BDO is also completely different in terms of endgame. The entire end-game on BDO is about earning silver (game currency) by farming adds and selling mats/gear because you can lose gear progression from its rng upgrade system. There isn’t a trade game in a market board because of set prices where you buy X’s mats. You don’t even pick whose item you buy.

ESO is not about gold farming constantly because crafting/farming give you guaranteed upgrades on gear progression. Also, BDO has a guild system that pays members daily because you have to pay members of a guild whereas on here members pay to be in a guild (not all guilds). In most other MMO’s the player isn’t forced to constantly part with your gold equivalent currency constantly.

In FFXIV, houses and specific luxury mounts/minions are for those with too much Gil. They get this from crafting/gathering and selling which isn’t something only they can do. Everyone in that game has a way to sell items. In game progression and free companies are not dictated by your Gil.

In DCUO, the market is about trends/popular items for cosmetics.

Auztinito

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

Buyers always have a say whether it is an AH or.guild trader, to say otherwise is complete and utter tosh.

If you don't like the price don't pay the price. Simple.

And if you don't like the price but still want it go farm it.

If buyers don't buy, sellers don't sell, sellers then have to lower their prices, especially as more of the item comes onto the market, any decent seller will see the items not selling at price A and so will list at slightly less, and so on, prices fall as more product comes to the market.

There was a recent thread from a PvPer screaming about the price fall in Timbercrow outfits. He failed to understand that many farmed it themselves as well as bought from traders and therefore prices fell.

With the ring, if its an overland set you just need to run dolmens in the zone it drops and you will have it within a day, then you just need to improve it, and that's an entirely different story, purple and gold mats cost a lot of money and so make then expensive to buy on traders.

Except the only people buying are the ones with large amounts of gold. How do you farm gathering mats for alchemy or provisioning? You don’t. It’s RNG. How does one farm Antiquities without breaking their story mode progression because they need to unlock it in Greymoor zone.

Buyers have less say because the ones profiting are the ones buying whereas the rest of the players don’t buy/suck it up. If they went with an AH, you’d see cheaper items. I mean there is no stopping guilds from making something like Khajiit Motif cost 10k. Why? Guilds regularly work together to keep items overpriced or stagnant so that they can still profit off of old items to hustle other players whereas in a AH that wouldn’t happen unless an entire server agreed to do it.

Uh...you farm Alchemy reagents by running around the zones picking them up. If you need flowers, the Hollow City is fantastic for it. That's my preferred farming ground for cornflower.

Provisioning you just do a ton of writs and you get way, way more ingredients than you use. That's why most provisioning mats are dirt cheap on the trader. The ones that aren't...how do you think they made it on the market? Someone stood there fishing.

And I'll leave it up to you whether or not you want to unlock Antiquities with a quick trip into Solitude or not. That's up to you - I unlocked Antiquities without needing to do any of the zone story.

No offense, but what this sounds like is:

"How do you I farm gathering mats for alchemy or provisioning? You I don’t."

Most of my early fortune came from selling flowers (sold Columbine for 20 gold apiece at first, ), perfect roe, and later nirncrux from Craglorn and other raw materials. No flipping. All farming.

It's up to you if you want to farm for items or not, but please, recognize that as your choice. If you don't want to farm Hollow City for your own cornflower, then I guess you'll just have to pay whatever price the market at large will bear. And if that price is higher than you want to pay, I guess you can reevaluate your willingness to farm or just do without. Or complain on the forums. Whatever floats your boat.

(No one who has 10k gold is going to buy a blue Khajiit Motif for 10k gold unless it's a complete lark. Maybe try a different example of guilds colluding to keep prices high, since you think it's having a real impact on buyers?)

Farming flowers is still rng because you’re not guaranteed specific flowers/mats because nodes are random. Really? I consistently see basic mats that you can get from grocers cost much more at guild traders.

Khajiit Motif is an example of what guild traders could and have done on ESO.

I don't understand your point about RNG. If you expect to pick a handful of flowers at a time and get all cornflower, no, that's not going to happen.

If you actually farm the same route for a while and pick up everything, like I do when I'm running circles around the Hollow City, you get plenty of every flower type.

Again, this is something I do fairly regularly when I want to make gold in ESO. Moreover, alchemy reagents are very accessible to brand new players to farm and sell, even if they don't hop straight over to the Hollow City. All flowers sell well, even if not for the high prices that columbine and cornflower usually command.

I'm sorry, but RNG is no excuse. If you don't want to farm, you don't have to, but you don't really have much ground to complain about the price then. People who are willing to farm set the price. People who aren't willing to farm have to pay whatever price the market will bear.

I mean, someone picked all that cornflower out of the ground along with all the other reagents you buy or that go into the potions you buy. Why can't it be you, if you think the price is too high?

("I don't want to" is a valid answer.)

There is no farming for one mat on here for Alchemy or Provisioning. As you just said, you need to waste time farming for all mats not just to get (hopefully) enough of the mat you want and not necessarily to flip/sell but for personal use.

Sylvermynx

Eh, some of us love to farm. Every character I play (and I have LOTS of alts) farms the entire time s/he is doing whatever out of a city.

I've always been that way, in every game. And no.... I don't EVER sell anything I farm. It's not "money on the hoof" - it's materials I will need at some point.

nightstrike

I really like the lack of a central auction house. It's much more immersive, and it allows you to play Privateer, buying from low traffic places and selling in high ones.

I would like a change, though, allowing your hired trader to buy stuff for you. Imagine being able to go up to a trader and sell items that the trader is looking for. So for instance, I might list a sword to sell for 100g, but I might also list a shield to buy for 100g. And a customer could come to my trader, buy the sword, and sell me a shield.

I think this would be a great enhancement to guild traders.

buttaface

Kwoung wrote: »

I have never experienced a game that has had a completely decent trading system, they simply don't exist.

I have played several games with fine trading systems, astounding though that you have played all the games such that you know those with decent trading systems "simply don't exist."

The primary complaint about ESO trading is lack of centralized functionality, not that players don't want to earn gold whatever that is supposed to mean.

kargen27

Auztinito wrote: »

kargen27 wrote: »

A central auction house would cause rare items to increase in price and it would be easier for a couple of people to control/manipulate the price of rare items. Instead of needing to visit over 200 locations to try and purchase all of one rare item they could sit in one spot.

Trade guilds are advertising for members all the time and many have very low or no dues requirements. Even in a guild with no trader you can still list items that the rest of the guild can see. The guild system has set up tiers of trading levels. A beginning player can sell to vendors or in zone. Someone kind of interested in trading can join a social guild that sometimes gets a trader. The players that want to treat trading like end game have the trade guilds that get the premier sites each week. Any player can participate at the level that fits them best.

Would be nice if there were some quality of life changes to the current system but for the most part it works really well. Inflation is held in check and prices vary depending on ever changing supply and demand. You can get everything you need at a decent price and most of what you want at various prices.

Rare items are already usually monopolized by someone and made very expensive anyway. Not to mention, it’s actually just as easy if not easier to control an entire market because all they need to do is check trader inventory around their vendor. Also, they have and do artificially drive up prices on non-rare items.

No they really are not. It has been tried a couple of times but within less than a day the efforts fell apart. There has been times when players look on the PTS to see what will be hot when the changes go live and stock up before the changes but they don't in any way control the market. They do make a good profit from players in a rush though.

There are over 200 vendors to check. Just checking those around your trader is not controlling the market. Unless you are doing it 24/7 it isn't even controlling your one location. Some items are so rare they demand a high price. On those items it isn't controlling the market. It is taking advantage of the market by farming ultra rare items to sell.

Common item prices fluctuate based on supply and demand. When changes to the game are made that makes some item all of a sudden jump in price it goes back down fairly quick because people sitting on those items list hoping to take advantage. New furniture recipes always causes a price increase in certain materials but the increase is short lived.

Again, even a new player can get everything they need and most of what they want with our current system. It works well and with a few adjustments could work even better.

NerfSeige

nightstrike wrote: »

I really like the lack of a central auction house. It's much more immersive, and it allows you to play Privateer, buying from low traffic places and selling in high ones.

I would like a change, though, allowing your hired trader to buy stuff for you. Imagine being able to go up to a trader and sell items that the trader is looking for. So for instance, I might list a sword to sell for 100g, but I might also list a shield to buy for 100g. And a customer could come to my trader, buy the sword, and sell me a shield.

I think this would be a great enhancement to guild traders.

Yeah, it’s really immersive. And when you are, say, looking for a 500k item and found it for less 100k on an obscure trader inside a fence location? The dopamine high is priceless. Lol

Kwoung

buttaface wrote: »

Kwoung wrote: »

I have never experienced a game that has had a completely decent trading system, they simply don't exist.

I have played several games with fine trading systems, astounding though that you have played all the games such that you know those with decent trading systems "simply don't exist."

The primary complaint about ESO trading is lack of centralized functionality, not that players don't want to earn gold whatever that is supposed to mean.

Well, you managed to prove what I said, except you chose to not quote that part of it. Since you conveniently left out the important bit let me clarify... by decent trading system I meant one that makes EVERYONE happy. I have played plenty of games, including this one, in which I felt the system was fine, and in others I felt it wasn't. And to my exact point, I have yet to play a game that everyone felt the trading system was fine and met their needs. As I said.... that game doesn't seem to exist.

As for earning gold, the main theme on these forums about the complaint is... prices are too high, so the system must be broken and a AH would fix that. No it won't, if you can't afford to buy the stuff you want, then you simply need more gold, not a new trade system. ZOS doesn't fix the market, neither would a AH, as a matter of fact, with the rampant mudflation going on in PC ESO, an AH would actually make the issue worst.

VaranisArano

Auztinito wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Auztinito wrote: »

hafgood wrote: »

Buyers always have a say whether it is an AH or.guild trader, to say otherwise is complete and utter tosh.

If you don't like the price don't pay the price. Simple.

And if you don't like the price but still want it go farm it.

If buyers don't buy, sellers don't sell, sellers then have to lower their prices, especially as more of the item comes onto the market, any decent seller will see the items not selling at price A and so will list at slightly less, and so on, prices fall as more product comes to the market.

There was a recent thread from a PvPer screaming about the price fall in Timbercrow outfits. He failed to understand that many farmed it themselves as well as bought from traders and therefore prices fell.

With the ring, if its an overland set you just need to run dolmens in the zone it drops and you will have it within a day, then you just need to improve it, and that's an entirely different story, purple and gold mats cost a lot of money and so make then expensive to buy on traders.

Except the only people buying are the ones with large amounts of gold. How do you farm gathering mats for alchemy or provisioning? You don’t. It’s RNG. How does one farm Antiquities without breaking their story mode progression because they need to unlock it in Greymoor zone.

Buyers have less say because the ones profiting are the ones buying whereas the rest of the players don’t buy/suck it up. If they went with an AH, you’d see cheaper items. I mean there is no stopping guilds from making something like Khajiit Motif cost 10k. Why? Guilds regularly work together to keep items overpriced or stagnant so that they can still profit off of old items to hustle other players whereas in a AH that wouldn’t happen unless an entire server agreed to do it.

Uh...you farm Alchemy reagents by running around the zones picking them up. If you need flowers, the Hollow City is fantastic for it. That's my preferred farming ground for cornflower.

Provisioning you just do a ton of writs and you get way, way more ingredients than you use. That's why most provisioning mats are dirt cheap on the trader. The ones that aren't...how do you think they made it on the market? Someone stood there fishing.

And I'll leave it up to you whether or not you want to unlock Antiquities with a quick trip into Solitude or not. That's up to you - I unlocked Antiquities without needing to do any of the zone story.

No offense, but what this sounds like is:

"How do you I farm gathering mats for alchemy or provisioning? You I don’t."

Most of my early fortune came from selling flowers (sold Columbine for 20 gold apiece at first, ), perfect roe, and later nirncrux from Craglorn and other raw materials. No flipping. All farming.

It's up to you if you want to farm for items or not, but please, recognize that as your choice. If you don't want to farm Hollow City for your own cornflower, then I guess you'll just have to pay whatever price the market at large will bear. And if that price is higher than you want to pay, I guess you can reevaluate your willingness to farm or just do without. Or complain on the forums. Whatever floats your boat.

(No one who has 10k gold is going to buy a blue Khajiit Motif for 10k gold unless it's a complete lark. Maybe try a different example of guilds colluding to keep prices high, since you think it's having a real impact on buyers?)

Farming flowers is still rng because you’re not guaranteed specific flowers/mats because nodes are random. Really? I consistently see basic mats that you can get from grocers cost much more at guild traders.

Khajiit Motif is an example of what guild traders could and have done on ESO.

I don't understand your point about RNG. If you expect to pick a handful of flowers at a time and get all cornflower, no, that's not going to happen.

If you actually farm the same route for a while and pick up everything, like I do when I'm running circles around the Hollow City, you get plenty of every flower type.

Again, this is something I do fairly regularly when I want to make gold in ESO. Moreover, alchemy reagents are very accessible to brand new players to farm and sell, even if they don't hop straight over to the Hollow City. All flowers sell well, even if not for the high prices that columbine and cornflower usually command.

I'm sorry, but RNG is no excuse. If you don't want to farm, you don't have to, but you don't really have much ground to complain about the price then. People who are willing to farm set the price. People who aren't willing to farm have to pay whatever price the market will bear.

I mean, someone picked all that cornflower out of the ground along with all the other reagents you buy or that go into the potions you buy. Why can't it be you, if you think the price is too high?

("I don't want to" is a valid answer.)

There is no farming for one mat on here for Alchemy or Provisioning. As you just said, you need to waste time farming for all mats not just to get (hopefully) enough of the mat you want and not necessarily to flip/sell but for personal use.

We farm all sorts of things in game that have some form of RNG involved.

Alchemy reagents, provisioning ingridients, jewelry mats, housing mats, motifs, furnishings, stolen goods, regular gear, set piece gear, Companion gear, monster sets, tempering alloy, chromium plating, basically all of the upgrade mats, etc.

I mean, do you say about non-curated chests, "you need to waste time farming for all gear in a zone not just to get the set gear you want for personal use, so I don't farm chests.?"

If your decision of "I can't farm that" is based on refusing anything with an RNG chance because you'd be wasting your time whenever you don't get the specific item you want...suddenly I'm less surprised by your insistence that some things can't be farmed.

Even though they totally can be.

I take the opposite approach, as you might guess. I'm not wasting my time farming flowers because I'm not cherrypicking cornflower. I'm hoovering up ALL the flowers and selling whatever I don't use to the people who will use them. That Wormwood isn't a waste because it's not Columbine - it's worth less, but not worthless. (And I don't have ESO+ either, so this isn't some Cragting Bag brag.)

The result?

I don't have problems sourcing flowers for my potions. I do pick up enough of everything that I also don't have problems buying extra materials or other items because I sell the excess. I've never had to complain about prices being too high on flowers because I farm my own.

Ultimately, you play how you want. I can't lead you to water and make you drink.

But the problems you describe - not being able to farm reagents and not having enough of the mats your need - are not problems I have, and I've shared what I do so that I don't have those problems.

It does get a little old being told that items aren't farmable when I do it all the time, though.