murder/killer/assassins

Vevvev

Jeremy wrote: »

Buujah wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

No, don't need to be harassed by some wannabe guard.

wannabe guardian? smiles mischievously* you are definitely the first to hide behind my mighty shield when it is really threatening!
~
but understand the objections I wasn't aware of. but would find it more challenging if i could be hunted by gamers in cities after a crime - the npc guards are, you know, a joke.

The NPC guards are a joke?

They're immortal and can one shot you.

Only if you damage them or let them keep hitting you. I found fighting the guards to be an incredibly bad idea, but they could use a buff. Improving their stealth detection would stop some of the cheesing I've been able to pull off.

VaranisArano

Vevvev wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Buujah wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

No, don't need to be harassed by some wannabe guard.

wannabe guardian? smiles mischievously* you are definitely the first to hide behind my mighty shield when it is really threatening!
~
but understand the objections I wasn't aware of. but would find it more challenging if i could be hunted by gamers in cities after a crime - the npc guards are, you know, a joke.

The NPC guards are a joke?

They're immortal and can one shot you.

Only if you damage them or let them keep hitting you. I found fighting the guards to be an incredibly bad idea, but they could use a buff. Improving their stealth detection would stop some of the cheesing I've been able to pull off.

I've sometimes wondered what it would be like to update the base game guards with that stealth suppression that the Hew's Bane guards have.

Vevvev

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Buujah wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

No, don't need to be harassed by some wannabe guard.

wannabe guardian? smiles mischievously* you are definitely the first to hide behind my mighty shield when it is really threatening!
~
but understand the objections I wasn't aware of. but would find it more challenging if i could be hunted by gamers in cities after a crime - the npc guards are, you know, a joke.

The NPC guards are a joke?

They're immortal and can one shot you.

Only if you damage them or let them keep hitting you. I found fighting the guards to be an incredibly bad idea, but they could use a buff. Improving their stealth detection would stop some of the cheesing I've been able to pull off.

I've sometimes wondered what it would be like to update the base game guards with that stealth suppression that the Hew's Bane guards have.

Definitely make them more interesting. For starters they'd be more able to be spotted by people doing sneaky shenanigans, and make them more of a threat to people built for invisibility.

Celephantsylvius_Bornasfinmo

Maybe we'll get an update so that NPC's can protect themselves a bit better..maybe even swarm? oO

*Thief steals a sweetroll and punches the shop keeper as he/she leaves*
*In the street shouts can be heard as the other shop owners beat the thief with brooms*

Gerebos

Maybe but only if this could work on both sides but this will end like many others which failed to implement this system,frustration low lvl ganking etc

Jeremy

Vevvev wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Buujah wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

No, don't need to be harassed by some wannabe guard.

wannabe guardian? smiles mischievously* you are definitely the first to hide behind my mighty shield when it is really threatening!
~
but understand the objections I wasn't aware of. but would find it more challenging if i could be hunted by gamers in cities after a crime - the npc guards are, you know, a joke.

The NPC guards are a joke?

They're immortal and can one shot you.

Only if you damage them or let them keep hitting you. I found fighting the guards to be an incredibly bad idea, but they could use a buff. Improving their stealth detection would stop some of the cheesing I've been able to pull off.

I'm not sure how it works. But it's not like how you describe.

I went on a crime spree the other day in Mournhold (I was going for the 100,000 bounty achievement) and the guard one-shotted me from the docks almost as soon as he saw me. So it might tied to how high your bounty is or something. But you definitely don't have to keep fighting them before they gain access to the one-shot move.

I personally think guards are plenty powerful enough on this game. They are already unkillable, use CC and can definitely kill you. So I would not support further buffs. You're probably just a good thief and have a lot of practice at evading them, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that. So I doubt you are "cheesing" it.

Maybe if crime on this game was more lucrative I could support making it more dangerous than it already is. But expecting players to contend with unkillable enemies who can 1-shot you and who actively seek you out even when stealthed for what are mostly trinkets worth a few hundred gold is a bit much.

Jeremy

Vevvev wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Buujah wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

No, don't need to be harassed by some wannabe guard.

wannabe guardian? smiles mischievously* you are definitely the first to hide behind my mighty shield when it is really threatening!
~
but understand the objections I wasn't aware of. but would find it more challenging if i could be hunted by gamers in cities after a crime - the npc guards are, you know, a joke.

The NPC guards are a joke?

They're immortal and can one shot you.

Only if you damage them or let them keep hitting you. I found fighting the guards to be an incredibly bad idea, but they could use a buff. Improving their stealth detection would stop some of the cheesing I've been able to pull off.

I've sometimes wondered what it would be like to update the base game guards with that stealth suppression that the Hew's Bane guards have.

Definitely make them more interesting. For starters they'd be more able to be spotted by people doing sneaky shenanigans, and make them more of a threat to people built for invisibility.

Invisibility has already been significantly nerfed and is basically useless now for players who don't wear medium armor or build for some other kind of stealth. So I think that is already plenty (too much in my opinion).

I've long argued that stealth game play is too Nightblade/build specific on this game considering how often this kind of content turns up during the normal course of the game for everyone. So I would not want to see that made even more of a problem. Though I suppose one could argue the armory helps alleviate this.

Jeremy

Gerebos wrote: »

Maybe but only if this could work on both sides but this will end like many others which failed to implement this system,frustration low lvl ganking etc

It's one of those ideas that sound fun on paper, but when implemented end up anything but.

Jeremy

VaranisArano wrote: »

Buujah wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

[snip]

If they added a flag system to where players voluntarily participated I wouldn't have a problem with it. But it would have to be voluntary for me to ever support such a system so ripe for abuse.

[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

xxslam48xxb14_ESO

Oh man this would be awesome, but it would also get pretty [snip]. The tower humpers from cyrodiil would run around murdering 100s of npcs just to get a massive bounty and draw in dozens of bounty hunters to 1vX. Pvers are not prepared to battle tower humpers and will just get farmed. I assume the thieves dens would be safe zones so they would no doubt find premium tower humping locations next to dens for quick escapes when too many show up.

Then ironically the best bounty hunters would all be nbs because they would be the only class with the element of surprise. Edgy assassins would be getting bounty hunted primarily by "righteous" assassins. Other classes just wouldn't stand a chance of killing the tower humpers before they slip away into the thieves den. I watch it happen all the time in cyrodiil, a 1vXer goes on a spree and doesn't get stopped until a ganker with extreme burst shows up to gank them. So in a weird way the most righteous classes like templar and DK would be the ones with huge bounties and the dirty no good nbs would be the ones bringing justice.

[edited for rude comment]

Kwoung

I would be ok with it if it was a toggle, and the BoW worked on the righteous paladin types and we could loot them as well after assassinating them. Cause ya know, targeting DB and TG members, is bound to make you a prime target for those guilds.

Jaraal

Buujah wrote: »

can't we approve them for pvp in cities? so that they can be attacked not only by guards but also by players? is that not technically possible? As a righteous paladin, my finger always itches when someone in front of me kills one npc after the other with impunity like a madman.

I would love to be able to have some goody two shoes try to interfere with my Justice gameplay! But if you think the anti-PvP complaints are loud now, just wait until something like vigilante play is introduced. You have no idea!

Jaraal

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Buujah wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

No, don't need to be harassed by some wannabe guard.

wannabe guardian? smiles mischievously* you are definitely the first to hide behind my mighty shield when it is really threatening!
~
but understand the objections I wasn't aware of. but would find it more challenging if i could be hunted by gamers in cities after a crime - the npc guards are, you know, a joke.

The NPC guards are a joke?

They're immortal and can one shot you.

Only if you damage them or let them keep hitting you. I found fighting the guards to be an incredibly bad idea, but they could use a buff. Improving their stealth detection would stop some of the cheesing I've been able to pull off.

I've sometimes wondered what it would be like to update the base game guards with that stealth suppression that the Hew's Bane guards have.

Many people don't realize that there's also a Hew's Bane exclusive armor set that reduces your damage taken from guards by 20%. You can also run the Shadowrend set to reduce the damage a guard does.

There's really no excuse for dying to guards, unless you're foolish enough to get caught stealing/killing inside a closed room and neglected to get the Clemency passive.

Darrett

If they were to implement a player bounty system, it would have to be based on a threshold. Something like you only get flagged over a 10,000 bounty, and it’s not an open flag. It’s a quest available that bounty hunter players can accept, so it’s not just vigilante justice but a sanctioned activity.

I just don’t really see a benefit in making it a PvP system. The above would be just as effective as a daily PvE system where progressively powerful NPC bounty hunters were sent after you, or bounty hunter players could pursue NPC lawbreakers in a similar fashion.

Kwoung

Jaraal wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Buujah wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

No, don't need to be harassed by some wannabe guard.

wannabe guardian? smiles mischievously* you are definitely the first to hide behind my mighty shield when it is really threatening!
~
but understand the objections I wasn't aware of. but would find it more challenging if i could be hunted by gamers in cities after a crime - the npc guards are, you know, a joke.

The NPC guards are a joke?

They're immortal and can one shot you.

Only if you damage them or let them keep hitting you. I found fighting the guards to be an incredibly bad idea, but they could use a buff. Improving their stealth detection would stop some of the cheesing I've been able to pull off.

I've sometimes wondered what it would be like to update the base game guards with that stealth suppression that the Hew's Bane guards have.

Many people don't realize that there's also a Hew's Bane exclusive armor set that reduces your damage taken from guards by 20%. You can also run the Shadowrend set to reduce the damage a guard does.

There's really no excuse for dying to guards, unless you're foolish enough to get caught stealing/killing inside a closed room and neglected to get the Clemency passive.

Yup, and the fact that jumping in pretty much any water is a guaranteed way to get away. Apparently a lack of swimming skills is a pre-requisite to being hired as a guard. Stealing/Assassinations in Vivec are so easy, yet I see peeps dying there constantly to guards... one dodge roll to break free, and 10 steps in any direction to hit the ocean. It is literally impossible to die to guards there if you have the slightest clue. And you can swim right up to the Outlaw Refuge... so...

Paulytnz

Buujah wrote: »

[snip]

Thing is tho, you would not be the only person such a change would effect.........................

[edited to remove quote]

Buujah

guards are no real reason to prevent players from stealing and killing in cities. many have already said it, jump in the water, have an invisibility potion and disappear around the next corner and you are safe.
other players, real bounty hunters or the king's guards (like me) would ensure calm and discipline in cities. Wayrest without mass murderers. how nice would that be?

KMarble wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]

LadyDestiny wrote: »

[snip]

[snip]
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

LalMirchi

vigilante
/ˌvɪdʒɪˈlanti/
---
noun
a member of a self-appointed group of citizens who undertake law enforcement in their community without legal authority, typically because the legal agencies are thought to be inadequate.

---

Absolutely a hard pass on this suggestion. Also the the likelihood of anything like this being implemented in the game which does have the Dark Brotherhood as a DLC https://en.uesp.net/wiki/Online:Dark_Brotherhood_(DLC) is thankfully rather unlikely.

thorwyn

Roleplayers:
This guy threw a mudball at me! How dare he interfere with my roleplay experience?!! ZOS, to the rescue!!!

Also roleplayers:
HA! A murder most foul it is! I shall strike him with my divine anger! Have a thee, coward!

Jeremy

Buujah wrote: »

guards are no real reason to prevent players from stealing and killing in cities. many have already said it, jump in the water, have an invisibility potion and disappear around the next corner and you are safe.
other players, real bounty hunters or the king's guards (like me) would ensure calm and discipline in cities. Wayrest without mass murderers. how nice would that be?

They're not designed to prevent players from stealing and killing in cities. They are just there to add some challenge to it, and make players "jump in the water, have an invisibility potion and disappear around the next corner". So it's working as intended.

If you just died instantly every time you tried to commit a crime it wouldn't be worth doing and they might as well just remove the justice system from the game.

ArchangelIsraphel

Buujah wrote: »

[snip]

So you want to be a thief who steals from real players you can inconvenience rather than one who steals from NPC's who aren't real and experience no drawbacks from the system?

I think I understand your definition of "justice" now.

I'm a roleplayer myself, and all I'm asking right now is that you take a step back from the roleplay in your head to realize that if you are allowed to stun people and take the items they have worked for in game you become an actual thief. No actual theft is occurring when a thief steals from an npc- it isn't a real person's character being affected by someone taking something from them. But you are asking to be allowed to actually take things from people who have worked for them, and that isn't right. As a theif, I cannot steal from you, an actual player (nor do I want to). Why should you be able to steal from me?

[edited to remove quote]

ZOS_Icy

Hi there,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for baiting and flaming, content that is against the Community Rules.

• Flaming: It’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic. If a discussion gets heated and turns into a debate, remember that you should stick to debating the post and/or thread topic. It is never appropriate to resort to personal comments or jabs about those participating in the thread discussion.

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For further posts be sure to stay constructive and respectful to avoid thread derailment.

Thank you for understanding.

VaranisArano

At the end of the day, I don't really care about your intentions.

I care about the real, practical impact this is going to have on other players.

And I have some major qualms about your idea. These are my qualms, though heavily influenced by the opinions expressed by other players in this thread and past times this idea has come up, as well as the barrels of salt produced on the forums every time ZOS does an Imperial City event.

Major Qualms

• You want to force people to duel you with no opt-out, frisk them for gold, and throw them in timeout.
• Lots of players hate forced dueling, aka PVP.
• Lots of players who're okay with PVP still really, really hate forced dueling, being frisked for Tel Var, and being thrown out to a respawn point, aka, the Imperial DLC, which is so unpopular with the community that it's a dead zone unless ZOS bribes players to go there with event tickets.
• Lots of players who're okay with being frisked for their Tel Var don't like it when the person doing the frisking is carrying zero Tel Var, so that when they turn the tables, they get nothing in return. I can't help but notice that your Paladin takes no risk of being beaten up and robbed in your roleplay scenario.
• Your suggestion basically makes Thieves Guild/Dark Brotherhood into the same incredibly unpopular gameplay as Imperial City. To be clear, we're comparing two decently selling DLC to a DLC that ZOS offers for free and still can't get players into the City.
• Adding forced PVP to the Theves Guild and Dark Brotherhood now is a massive bait-and-switch for players who bought them as PVE-only content. As we see, it's going to be incredibly unpopular.
• ZOS already considered having an enforcer role. Nothing you've said has addressed the problems they saw (players would collaborate to game the system for rewards) or the many problems the community sees with it (forced dueling, asymmetrical risk, potential for griefing.) If you want this change, you have to address these concerns.

Frankly, your intentions can be good, but I don't really care what you intend when my gameplay would be impacted that negatively by the practical changes you suggest. Good intentions don't really help, you know?

Ways to Address My Qualms

• Any duels must be opt-in. Since Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood have been PVE-only for years, it's not appropriate to bait-and-switch players. I don't particularly care if you have to accept the duel or if straight up ganking is allowed, but players who want to continue to play TG/DB as PVE-only must still have the option to opt-out entirely.
• Both the Enforcer and Criminal have to be able to initiate the fight. So the Enforcer can't just stand there in front of the Outlaws Refuge waiting for a soft target because a hardened Criminal might take them out.
• The Enforcer and Criminal need equal risk/reward for winning and losing the duel. None of this zero-Tel Var ganker vs Tel Var Farmer nonsense please.
• Anti-Griefing/Exploiting Measures like a long cooldown on Justice System duels (one per hour? One per half-hour?) that applies to both players. This helps prevent players from collaborating to get lots of rewards. It also means that specific players can't be targeted and interrupted by multiple Enforcers/Criminals for a period of time.
• If we're going to do a time-out so that players don't immediately go back the murder spree, Time-out should not substantially interfere with general gameplay, and the Enforcer also needs a timeout. Suggestion: a Criminal who's defeated gets a stealth debuff for 15 minutes, making it harder but not impossible to continue their criminal activities. An Enforcer who's defeated needs an equivalent debuff that's a deterrent for their preferred gameplay - I'm not entirely sure what I'd suggest. I'm thinking maybe a penalty to their max stats or their recovery for 15 minutes, since they got in a fight, then got beaten and robbed?" (Note: I don't really like the idea of timeout as a general thing, but as an opt-in thing, sure.)

Now, you may not like my proposed changes to your idea. That's fine, but since I presume you actually want ZOS to consider this idea, I do strongly suggest you start addressing those major qualms expressed by your fellow players.

Until you do, I'm sorry to tell you that your paladin is actually proving the point that ZOS should be very cautious about the Enforcer role.

Edited: self-snipped the quotes after noticing the mod message above.

Kwoung

VaranisArano wrote: »

At the end of the day, I don't really care about your intentions.

I care about the real, practical impact this is going to have on other players.

<snipped to save space>

You touched on it, but I will repeat what I mentioned above. If a player chooses to "flag" as an enforcer, they should be a viable Blade of Woe target I can assassinate and loot. The funny thing about most of these posts is, they always seem to be one sided, "I want to protect the innocents" and the suggestions always seem to leave the decision to interfere with another players gameplay on the non-criminal and absolutely never has repercussions for them. Well, that should not be the case IMHO, if you choose to go all in on justice (on both sides of the law), you need to flag up at least 5 minutes beforehand so everyone can see your intentions... and be ready to be ganked at every step as soon as the 5 min expires.

Edit: And oh... since it is vigilante law, the guards should agro on the so called "good guy" if he engages someone before a criminal act is committed and a bounty assigned. Basically, if I perform a clean (bounty free) assassination or pick and get attacked by a justice player, he is the one in the wrong and who the guards are going after.

Buujah

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

~ I think I understand your definition of "justice" now.~

apparently I expressed myself incredibly badly - sorry I'm not a native speaker. but for god's sake - i don't really want to steal their things from the players. I just wanted to relieve you of stolen objects (like a guard would do) and give these objects back to the npc's. no personal income. how dishonorable would that be? i'm not a corrupt guard of the king.

In addition, I would like the topic to be rocked a little too high and I would not have thought that so many players would feel that they were being trodden on. Whoever I should have offended with this idea / suggestion, I would like to apologize. nothing is further from me than destroying the gaming experience of some total stranger. thank you for your attention and fare thee well!

Fabi95

It would be great if it was possible to mute the Blade of Woe executioner sounds. If I can't do anything against it, why do I have to hear the unsettling dying screams? When I play with my loudspeakers turned on it can be especially off-putting, because people nearby and even neighbors can hear this sometimes. I made a thread about this some time ago. Thanks for considering.

Jaraal

Fabi95 wrote: »

It would be great if it was possible to mute the Blade of Woe executioner sounds. If I can't do anything against it, why do I have to hear the unsettling dying screams? When I play with my loudspeakers turned on it can be especially off-putting, because people nearby and even neighbors can hear this sometimes. I made a thread about this some time ago. Thanks for considering.

ZOS likes you to hear those sounds. In fact, you can hear NPCs making the Blade of Woe stabbing sounds in Fargrave. When I first got there I heard it all the time, kept looking around to see who was doing the killing.... turns out it was the Daedra after all.

Rastaman111

Meh, I just rob houses empty and a lot of pickpocketing.

don't care about the bounty my highest was around 5000.

Got a lot of very rare items because of that and sold for a lot of money.

Hollyniss

Buujah wrote: »

can't we approve them for pvp in cities? so that they can be attacked not only by guards but also by players? is that not technically possible? As a righteous paladin, my finger always itches when someone in front of me kills one npc after the other with impunity like a madman.

As a heavy Dark Brotherhood character I'd be cool with this. It'd be fun and more challenging. Guards are boring and predictable.