murder/killer/assassins

Buujah

can't we approve them for pvp in cities? so that they can be attacked not only by guards but also by players? is that not technically possible? As a righteous paladin, my finger always itches when someone in front of me kills one npc after the other with impunity like a madman.

Gundug

I believe the original design of the justice system was to involve player vs. player for illegal actions. A major problem with that is since the Outlaw and Dark Brotherhood guilds have quests to steal or assassinate in public places, other players may be put into the position to directly interfere with or block progress in these quests. It would be like opening zone quests to PVP. There would be those who block players from completing their tasks because they enjoy ruining the other’s experience. Better to just ignore other people, even if they do things you find annoying, and mind your own business about things that don’t directly involve you.

VaranisArano

How to PVP with a Justice System player:

Step 1: Do a duel request.

Step 2a: If they accept, do the duel.

Step 2b: If they decline, then they don't want to roleplay with you that way. You need to go about your business and leave them alone. Understand that while you may not like how they play, they are playing the game as intended, and it's not appropriate to harass a player after they've indicated they aren't interested in being the target of your Paladin roleplay.


ZOS originally considered Enforcers, but nixed it from the Justice System due to concerns about players gaming the system.

In the meantime, there's also been a lot of community feedback concerning the probability of griefing and a general lack of desire for mixed PVE/PVP. Given that DB players have limited areas for some of their targets, it would be rather easy to stalk and grief them.

Amottica

Gundug wrote: »

I believe the original design of the justice system was to involve player vs. player for illegal actions. A major problem with that is since the Outlaw and Dark Brotherhood guilds have quests to steal or assassinate in public places, other players may be put into the position to directly interfere with or block progress in these quests. It would be like opening zone quests to PVP. There would be those who block players from completing their tasks because they enjoy ruining the other’s experience. Better to just ignore other people, even if they do things you find annoying, and mind your own business about things that don’t directly involve you.

The griefing would have been a major issue, as you noted. Zenimax would have had to create a flag system to opt in or out. Even AGS realized they needdd a flag system for their PvP game because of griefing.

wolfie1.0.

Buujah wrote: »

can't we approve them for pvp in cities? so that they can be attacked not only by guards but also by players? is that not technically possible? As a righteous paladin, my finger always itches when someone in front of me kills one npc after the other with impunity like a madman.

The problem is that as stated above 2 dlcs, 1 class, 2 curses, and several skill lines are built around becomming a criminal at some point.

The problem is that it is actually very very easy to get a bounty on your head in eso. It's as easy as clicking a button or getting a lag spike while trying to preform an action. That combined with a players natural desire to abuse any system, it would be a bad idea.

If you want 100% immersion stick to single player games or environments that you can 100% control.

FluffWit

Buujah wrote: »

can't we approve them for pvp in cities? so that they can be attacked not only by guards but also by players? is that not technically possible? As a righteous paladin, my finger always itches when someone in front of me kills one npc after the other with impunity like a madman.

JKorr

My one main is such a light-side paragon that there are quests she'll never do. I don't usually get bounties, accidentally or on purpose.

I ended up with a lot of stress induced twitches when she played Morrowind. So many places are marked "trespassing" while doing the main stories, and it is so relatively easy to get caught even while being super stealthy that I ended up with a LOT of bounties. I used a lot of counterfeit pardons and logging to a different alt to get rid of the bounties. If some overly eager wanna-be-teh-LAW enforcer started annoying me while I was playing the story quests....Last straw and dropping the game in frustration would have occurred. Seriously; my character is collecting a survey, swimming past your island, and not trespassing. Why did she end up with a bounty? Doing the quest that takes you to that island, no one noticed she not only trespassed but killed her quest target. I mean, really, priorities, people.

The devs didn't implement the second part of the justice system because there were too many ways people could abuse the crap out of the system and grief a lot of players who only wanted to play content they paid for.

RaddlemanNumber7

Use of the Blade of Woe is a sacrament. When you see a Dark Brotherhood assassin kill an innocent in the street using the Blade of Woe what they are actually doing is saving the victim's eternal soul, releasing it from the torture of aurbic existence and sending it back into the timeless serenity of the Void.

Those assassins are prioritising saving souls over saving lives. Isn't that what Paladins are supposed to be doing?

VaranisArano

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Use of the Blade of Woe is a sacrament. When you see a Dark Brotherhood assassin kill an innocent in the street using the Blade of Woe what they are actually doing is saving the victim's eternal soul, releasing it from the torture of aurbic existence and sending it back into the timeless serenity of the Void.

Those assassins are prioritising saving souls over saving lives. Isn't that what Paladins are supposed to be doing?

Is that what my Silencer is doing?

whistles innocently as she hides various shiny objects and motifs behind her back

"Yes, I'm just saving souls, officer!"

Hapexamendios

No, don't need to be harassed by some wannabe guard.

davidtk

Buujah wrote: »

can't we approve them for pvp in cities? so that they can be attacked not only by guards but also by players? is that not technically possible? As a righteous paladin, my finger always itches when someone in front of me kills one npc after the other with impunity like a madman.

If you dont want to kill npc don't do it.

VaranisArano wrote: »

How to PVP with a Justice System player:

Step 1: Do a duel request.

Step 2a: If they accept, do the duel.

Step 2b: If they decline, then they don't want to roleplay with you that way. You need to go about your business and leave them alone. Understand that while you may not like how they play, they are playing the game as intended, and it's not appropriate to harass a player after they've indicated they aren't interested in being the target of your Paladin roleplay.


ZOS originally considered Enforcers, but nixed it from the Justice System due to concerns about players gaming the system.

In the meantime, there's also been a lot of community feedback concerning the probability of griefing and a general lack of desire for mixed PVE/PVP. Given that DB players have limited areas for some of their targets, it would be rather easy to stalk and grief them.

I agree, they can request duel and if someone decline, they just need to do own business.

Hapexamendios wrote: »

No, don't need to be harassed by some wannabe guard.

Agree, i playing game with all things what are in this game.
.....
Today I was doing one nice achievement ... pay 100k to fence/guard. So yes i today murdered uncounted of npcs. And what? Nothing, my money my decision and it is not your problem

CrystalExarch

FluffWit wrote: »

Buujah wrote: »

can't we approve them for pvp in cities? so that they can be attacked not only by guards but also by players? is that not technically possible? As a righteous paladin, my finger always itches when someone in front of me kills one npc after the other with impunity like a madman.

Does Elam Drals accept contracts from Brotherhood members? I hope he does...

Hapexamendios wrote: »

No, don't need to be harassed by some wannabe guard.

Like a guy the other day, who was trying to prevent me from killing someone in Davon's Watch while I was doing the Litany of Blood. He kept stalking me and following me around the town to the point I had to teleport to another location and come back to continue the quest later.

The reason why I have Tell deactivated in chat, and turned Auto-declining of duels ON under Settings.

Buujah

Hapexamendios wrote: »

No, don't need to be harassed by some wannabe guard.

wannabe guardian? smiles mischievously* you are definitely the first to hide behind my mighty shield when it is really threatening!
~
but understand the objections I wasn't aware of. but would find it more challenging if i could be hunted by gamers in cities after a crime - the npc guards are, you know, a joke.

RaddlemanNumber7

VaranisArano wrote: »

RaddlemanNumber7 wrote: »

Use of the Blade of Woe is a sacrament. When you see a Dark Brotherhood assassin kill an innocent in the street using the Blade of Woe what they are actually doing is saving the victim's eternal soul, releasing it from the torture of aurbic existence and sending it back into the timeless serenity of the Void.

Those assassins are prioritising saving souls over saving lives. Isn't that what Paladins are supposed to be doing?

Is that what my Silencer is doing?

whistles innocently as she hides various shiny objects and motifs behind her back

"Yes, I'm just saving souls, officer!"

Robbing innocents of their most treasured possessions frees their soul from some of its most significant entanglements with the Aurbis, thus making it more certain that the BoW will be effective in returning their soul to Sithis.

Well, that's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it.

Danikat

Gundug wrote: »

I believe the original design of the justice system was to involve player vs. player for illegal actions. A major problem with that is since the Outlaw and Dark Brotherhood guilds have quests to steal or assassinate in public places, other players may be put into the position to directly interfere with or block progress in these quests. It would be like opening zone quests to PVP. There would be those who block players from completing their tasks because they enjoy ruining the other’s experience. Better to just ignore other people, even if they do things you find annoying, and mind your own business about things that don’t directly involve you.

They wouldn't even need to know where the quests send you, they could just camp the entrances to the outlaws refuge and the Dark Brotherhood sanctuary and attack anyone going in or out until they happened to hit someone with a bounty.

JKorr wrote: »

My one main is such a light-side paragon that there are quests she'll never do. I don't usually get bounties, accidentally or on purpose.

I ended up with a lot of stress induced twitches when she played Morrowind. So many places are marked "trespassing" while doing the main stories, and it is so relatively easy to get caught even while being super stealthy that I ended up with a LOT of bounties. I used a lot of counterfeit pardons and logging to a different alt to get rid of the bounties. If some overly eager wanna-be-teh-LAW enforcer started annoying me while I was playing the story quests....Last straw and dropping the game in frustration would have occurred. Seriously; my character is collecting a survey, swimming past your island, and not trespassing. Why did she end up with a bounty? Doing the quest that takes you to that island, no one noticed she not only trespassed but killed her quest target. I mean, really, priorities, people.

The devs didn't implement the second part of the justice system because there were too many ways people could abuse the crap out of the system and grief a lot of players who only wanted to play content they paid for.

The way I look at that is trespassing simply means the people who control that area don't want you there. In game mechanics terms it also means they're on good enough terms with local law enforcement that they'd back up the complaint that you were trespassing and punish you for it. But it doesn't mean the people in control of the area are good or moral people. I'm sure every group of bandits your paragon has taken down would say she's trespassing in their hideout, they just don't have the influence to get the guards to back them up on it.

Even when you're doing the Dark Brotherhood quests where it's made clear they are not concerned about morals and have no qualms about doing things others consider to be evil many of your targets are still people who are at best as bad as the Brotherhood themselves and often quite a bit worse, even if they do parade around in shiny armour talking loudly about how much good they're doing.

So I wouldn't worry too much about trespassing even on a good character.

bmnoble

Maybe an opt in justice system, instead of a blanket "you can attack anyone that has a bounty" which would likely result in trolls standing outside the outlaw refuges/thieves den/brotherhood sanctuary etc

Players could instead have an option in settings to allow players to attack them while they have a bounty, for those that want the increased risk or just an excuse for overland PVP. (the setting should also not be able to be turned off while they have a bounty active)

Should also be mentioned having a bounty and the option on should not allow the player with the bounty to make the first move against other players, they can only fight those that have attacked them.

That way people who just want to do thieving/murder etc as a purely PVE activity won't be affected.

JKorr

Danikat wrote: »

Gundug wrote: »

I believe the original design of the justice system was to involve player vs. player for illegal actions. A major problem with that is since the Outlaw and Dark Brotherhood guilds have quests to steal or assassinate in public places, other players may be put into the position to directly interfere with or block progress in these quests. It would be like opening zone quests to PVP. There would be those who block players from completing their tasks because they enjoy ruining the other's experience. Better to just ignore other people, even if they do things you find annoying, and mind your own business about things that don't directly involve you.

They wouldn't even need to know where the quests send you, they could just camp the entrances to the outlaws refuge and the Dark Brotherhood sanctuary and attack anyone going in or out until they happened to hit someone with a bounty.

JKorr wrote: »

My one main is such a light-side paragon that there are quests she'll never do. I don't usually get bounties, accidentally or on purpose.

I ended up with a lot of stress-induced twitches when she played Morrowind. So many places are marked "trespassing" while doing the main stories, and it is so relatively easy to get caught even while being super stealthy that I ended up with a LOT of bounties. I used a lot of counterfeit pardons and logging to a different alt to get rid of the bounties. If some overly eager wanna-be-teh-LAW enforcer started annoying me while I was playing the story quests....Last straw and dropping the game in frustration would have occurred. Seriously; my character is collecting a survey, swimming past your island, and not trespassing. Why did she end up with a bounty? Doing the quest that takes you to that island, no one noticed she not only trespassed but killed her quest target. I mean, really, priorities, people.

The devs didn't implement the second part of the justice system because there were too many ways people could abuse the crap out of the system and grief a lot of players who only wanted to play content they paid for.

The way I look at that is trespassing simply means the people who control that area don't want you there. In game mechanics terms it also means they're on good enough terms with local law enforcement that they'd back up the complaint that you were trespassing and punish you for it. But it doesn't mean the people in control of the area are good or moral people. I'm sure every group of bandits your paragon has taken down would say she's trespassing in their hideout, they just don't have the influence to get the guards to back them up on it.

Even when you're doing the Dark Brotherhood quests where it's made clear they are not concerned about morals and have no qualms about doing things others consider to be evil many of your targets are still people who are at best as bad as the Brotherhood themselves and often quite a bit worse, even if they do parade around in shiny armour talking loudly about how much good they're doing.

So I wouldn't worry too much about trespassing even on a good character.

Oh, if only players could take out contracts on npcs.... I want someone to kill the "I'd like to buy that hero an ale" guy near the crafting station in Daggerfall...Just shut up already.

It wasn't the trespassing that caused the twitching. Trespassing to free slaves and kill bandits and slavers is *not* a concern. The issue was, for that character, Nord DK heavy armor tanky type, I wasn't used to being in trouble with the guards because she normally never got a bounty. So I'd wrap up a quest and head back to town and the guards would immediately make her reassess her life choices. It was more the bounties I never had to pay attention to before interrupting my business in town because *guards*. Having an overzealous law and order type player constantly waiting to collect a bounty would have pushed me to the "drop it and walk away" point. {She did end up with, for her, a huge bounty after the one "werewolf in town is illegal" update; she gave a werewolf bite outside Riften and ran back to town still furry. I never noticed there were guards in that tower outside the gate until that day. So, werewolf, escaping the guard, attacking a guard while escaping..yep, quite the exciting day for her.}

hafgood

Not this old chestnut again?

Think about it. It would be great for all of two minutes before everyone either (a) clicked the no PvP flag or (b) left the game.

I don't want players attacking me because I've got a bounty, I've got that bounty so I can run from a guard to get the run from guard achievement.

Honestly, if this wasn't able to be turned off with a flag I'd leave the game, I don't want to be attacked because I accidentally stole that helmet from a guild trader when trying to click on the guild trader.

Leave the system alone, people would just camp thr dark brotherhood base and Thieves guilds in the hope of getting someone to kill.

Tommy_The_Gun

Well, it does not really take a lot of imagination to realise: "What can go wrong ?" ...if we allow any form of PvP in a PvE zones...

If you have ever been in IC , you will know exactly what am I talking about. Because what we will endup with is a "gang" group, with one tanky individual using Blade of Woe on a random NPC and the rest will gank from stealth any potential "wannabe guardian".

Alternatively, we could end up with a group of self-proclaimed "justice warriors" camping Thives Guild / Dark Brotherhood questing spots, running the experience for everyone else.

Not to mention how it would affect in-game economy and availability of many items that only come from stealing / pick-pocketing.

Justice system was never designed with a PvP in mind and should stay as it is. The only form of PvP in PvE zone that could be added is "flag" system - but even that is a double-edged sword, because the 1st I would do is to disable PvP in Cyro & IC (as it would work both ways).

davidtk

PvP flag in PvE zone... So WoW and other game system?
Maybe it could be more challenging for some kind of players yes. But after experiences from WoW i will keep PvP flag OFF, thank you.
But no more PvP zones (like in wow for example) Can you imagine stupid gankers hidden near some quest zone? Killing player who just want to do quest or just kill boss?
No thank you, really no.

ElvenOverlord

No thanks. I prefer not to be griefed while I'm doing my DB/Thieves Guild dailies and quests.

Vevvev

VaranisArano wrote: »

How to PVP with a Justice System player:

Step 1: Do a duel request.

Step 2a: If they accept, do the duel.

Step 2b: If they decline, then they don't want to roleplay with you that way. You need to go about your business and leave them alone. Understand that while you may not like how they play, they are playing the game as intended, and it's not appropriate to harass a player after they've indicated they aren't interested in being the target of your Paladin roleplay.


ZOS originally considered Enforcers, but nixed it from the Justice System due to concerns about players gaming the system.

In the meantime, there's also been a lot of community feedback concerning the probability of griefing and a general lack of desire for mixed PVE/PVP. Given that DB players have limited areas for some of their targets, it would be rather easy to stalk and grief them.

Pretty much this.

If I'm doing PvE thieving and looting I'm not in Cyrodiil fighting players. I love doing PvP but I need to cool off every so often after things get bad or the hours doing the same thing begin to have their toll.

Edit: Also if we lost our stolen goods after death with PvP justice system it'd be no better than the Imperial City's Tel'var system. Start looking around about how popular that system is... It's not.

KMarble

I find it interesting that whenever a suggestion such as the one in this thread comes up, the people who want to be able to hunt down thieves/assassins usually claims to be role playing a "good" character, a light paladin or something along those lines.

Yet, it comes across to me as someone who is salivating at the thought of violence. Not because they're are role playing a "good" character who wants to correct all wrongs. They're trying to play a vigilante character - someone who has an excuse to kill.

I suggest, to those who want to do good deeds, that you should go talk to Stuga. Do you know how long she's been looking for you? Or go check how things are going in Elsweyr. I heard there are dragons in their homeland.

ArchangelIsraphel

KMarble wrote: »

I find it interesting that whenever a suggestion such as the one in this thread comes up, the people who want to be able to hunt down thieves/assassins usually claims to be role playing a "good" character, a light paladin or something along those lines.

Yet, it comes across to me as someone who is salivating at the thought of violence. Not because they're are role playing a "good" character who wants to correct all wrongs. They're trying to play a vigilante character - someone who has an excuse to kill.

I suggest, to those who want to do good deeds, that you should go talk to Stuga. Do you know how long she's been looking for you? Or go check how things are going in Elsweyr. I heard there are dragons in their homeland.

Exactly this. Not to mention the fact that, while the assassins are killing NPC's who aren't real, so many who claim to want to enforce "justice" have decided that instead of killing NPC's, they want to kill player characters that can actually interact with them in ways an NPC cannot. You cant inconvenience an NPC- you can inconvenience an actual person. Nothing real is being affected by the death of an NPC, while the OP is asking to do the same thing to actual player characters.

VaranisArano

KMarble wrote: »

I find it interesting that whenever a suggestion such as the one in this thread comes up, the people who want to be able to hunt down thieves/assassins usually claims to be role playing a "good" character, a light paladin or something along those lines.

Yet, it comes across to me as someone who is salivating at the thought of violence. Not because they're are role playing a "good" character who wants to correct all wrongs. They're trying to play a vigilante character - someone who has an excuse to kill.

I suggest, to those who want to do good deeds, that you should go talk to Stuga. Do you know how long she's been looking for you? Or go check how things are going in Elsweyr. I heard there are dragons in their homeland.

To be fair, the Paladin salivating at the thought of teaching the evildoers the error of their ways with their holy smiting sword of smiting is a definite D&D trope.

DMs have gradually gotten wise to this trope over the years, so whether or not you can still get away with it in any given campaign is up to your DM.

Galaen_Frost

VaranisArano wrote: »

KMarble wrote: »

I find it interesting that whenever a suggestion such as the one in this thread comes up, the people who want to be able to hunt down thieves/assassins usually claims to be role playing a "good" character, a light paladin or something along those lines.

Yet, it comes across to me as someone who is salivating at the thought of violence. Not because they're are role playing a "good" character who wants to correct all wrongs. They're trying to play a vigilante character - someone who has an excuse to kill.

I suggest, to those who want to do good deeds, that you should go talk to Stuga. Do you know how long she's been looking for you? Or go check how things are going in Elsweyr. I heard there are dragons in their homeland.

To be fair, the Paladin salivating at the thought of teaching the evildoers the error of their ways with their holy smiting sword of smiting is a definite D&D trope.

DMs have gradually gotten wise to this trope over the years, so whether or not you can still get away with it in any given campaign is up to your DM.

That's when you strip them of being a Paladin because they walked by that orphan kid with the wooden cup. Charity is of God after all.

Paulytnz

There's a reason why being a vigilante is illegal in most countries, just saying lol......

"Oh look, that guy just STOLE something, Imma go KILL him, in the name of JUSTICE!"

Zephiran23

An additional problem that wasn't present when they originally decided not to allow vigilantes is the Endeavor system. Criminal activities are frequently part of the cycle. Preventing other players from obtaining seals would be a major headache for ZOS.

Jeremy

Buujah wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

No, don't need to be harassed by some wannabe guard.

wannabe guardian? smiles mischievously* you are definitely the first to hide behind my mighty shield when it is really threatening!
~
but understand the objections I wasn't aware of. but would find it more challenging if i could be hunted by gamers in cities after a crime - the npc guards are, you know, a joke.

The NPC guards are a joke?

They're immortal and can one shot you.

colossalvoids

Other players around aren't your personal roleplay props, thought it was obvious.

davidtk

This kind of people have only their truth and their belief in how others should do their own things.
Therefore, they must constantly interfere in the actions of others and think that everyone will be thrilled by this annoyance.