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ZOS PLEASE TELL US WHAT IS GOING ON WITH PERFORMANCE

  • Casul
    Casul
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    Vizirith wrote: »

    Go buy some crown crates if you want to kill guards /s
    PvP needs more love.
  • _adhyffbjjjf12
    _adhyffbjjjf12
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    Soris wrote: »
    Performance is bad okay, Zos is unable to fix it okay too, but you guys keep playing in that campaign with all those ball groups and such, meanwhile Blackreach and Imperial City are dead empty.

    Blackreach is lag free in any time of day until high pop for all factions, which is very rare. If you are solo/duo/trio queue for somewhere else than Gray. Easy as that.

    Telling people to swap campaigns to fix performance is starting to feel like trolling at this point. For starters, it will do nothing to fix performance issues.

    Don't you think the problem is ZOS and anemic server investments? The problem certainly is not what campaign we decide to play in.

    The problem was identified at the release of the game, the game engine that they modified was not fit for purpose, it was called out by many at the time. This is why they have failed in all attempts to 'fix' performance and why improvements in hardware over time has not improved anything.
    Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on December 24, 2021 10:14AM
  • ATomiX69
    ATomiX69
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    I liked the one time they tried some performance fixes (new render pipeline) which ended up not rendering all players so you had people who pretty much had permanent invisibility and untargetability, was pretty fun for the few days it lasted.

    Lag wont get better, new servers dont just cost money for the hardware itself, but if its in a new physical location you need to relocate staff for setting it all up, maintenances etc. and with PvP they dont make as much bank as with printing a two-dungeon DLC every 3 months and a few cosmetics locked behind RNG-lootboxes, keep the P(l)ayers happy -> business is booming.
    smurf account
    New PvP content when?
    Better cyro performance when?
    Farmed about 3 GO's worth of AP
    world 3rd immortal redeemer (22.02.18) and other not noteworthy trifectas
  • AJones43865
    AJones43865
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    Soris wrote: »
    Performance is bad okay, Zos is unable to fix it okay too, but you guys keep playing in that campaign with all those ball groups and such, meanwhile Blackreach and Imperial City are dead empty.

    Blackreach is lag free in any time of day until high pop for all factions, which is very rare. If you are solo/duo/trio queue for somewhere else than Gray. Easy as that.

    Telling people to swap campaigns to fix performance is starting to feel like trolling at this point. For starters, it will do nothing to fix performance issues.

    Don't you think the problem is ZOS and anemic server investments? The problem certainly is not what campaign we decide to play in.

    The problem was identified at the release of the game, the game engine that they modified was not fit for purpose, it was called out by many at the time. This is why they have failed in all attempts to 'fix' performance and why improvements in hardware over time has not improved anything.

    What hardware improvements?
  • Kwoung
    Kwoung
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    Soris wrote: »
    Performance is bad okay, Zos is unable to fix it okay too, but you guys keep playing in that campaign with all those ball groups and such, meanwhile Blackreach and Imperial City are dead empty.

    Blackreach is lag free in any time of day until high pop for all factions, which is very rare. If you are solo/duo/trio queue for somewhere else than Gray. Easy as that.

    Telling people to swap campaigns to fix performance is starting to feel like trolling at this point. For starters, it will do nothing to fix performance issues.

    Don't you think the problem is ZOS and anemic server investments? The problem certainly is not what campaign we decide to play in.

    The problem was identified at the release of the game, the game engine that they modified was not fit for purpose, it was called out by many at the time. This is why they have failed in all attempts to 'fix' performance and why improvements in hardware over time has not improved anything.

    What hardware improvements?

    I thought the same thing, they haven't improved any hardware since the games release as far as I can tell... they even keep dumping the new zones and everything else on the same old hardware they launched with spreading it thinner and thinner. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if they are simply repurposing the Cyrodiil servers for the new zones as they release them.
    Edited by Kwoung on December 24, 2021 5:05PM
  • _adhyffbjjjf12
    _adhyffbjjjf12
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    Soris wrote: »
    Performance is bad okay, Zos is unable to fix it okay too, but you guys keep playing in that campaign with all those ball groups and such, meanwhile Blackreach and Imperial City are dead empty.

    Blackreach is lag free in any time of day until high pop for all factions, which is very rare. If you are solo/duo/trio queue for somewhere else than Gray. Easy as that.

    Telling people to swap campaigns to fix performance is starting to feel like trolling at this point. For starters, it will do nothing to fix performance issues.

    Don't you think the problem is ZOS and anemic server investments? The problem certainly is not what campaign we decide to play in.

    The problem was identified at the release of the game, the game engine that they modified was not fit for purpose, it was called out by many at the time. This is why they have failed in all attempts to 'fix' performance and why improvements in hardware over time has not improved anything.

    What hardware improvements?

    Oh i don't mean ZOS has upgraded the relative power of their hardware, what I mean is cpu compute power in general has increased significantly since 2014 but PVP in ESO has not managed to increase 1 jot, which also points to poor coding/net code/engine design. Hero engine was not fit for purpose, and no amount of modification will fix that - which is pretty evident now to even the most staunch denialists.
    Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on December 24, 2021 6:49PM
  • AJones43865
    AJones43865
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    Kwoung wrote: »
    Soris wrote: »
    Performance is bad okay, Zos is unable to fix it okay too, but you guys keep playing in that campaign with all those ball groups and such, meanwhile Blackreach and Imperial City are dead empty.

    Blackreach is lag free in any time of day until high pop for all factions, which is very rare. If you are solo/duo/trio queue for somewhere else than Gray. Easy as that.

    Telling people to swap campaigns to fix performance is starting to feel like trolling at this point. For starters, it will do nothing to fix performance issues.

    Don't you think the problem is ZOS and anemic server investments? The problem certainly is not what campaign we decide to play in.

    The problem was identified at the release of the game, the game engine that they modified was not fit for purpose, it was called out by many at the time. This is why they have failed in all attempts to 'fix' performance and why improvements in hardware over time has not improved anything.

    What hardware improvements?

    I thought the same thing, they haven't improved any hardware since the games release as far as I can tell... they even keep dumping the new zones and everything else on the same old hardware they launched with spreading it thinner and thinner. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if they are simply repurposing the Cyrodiil servers for the new zones as they release them.

    I think you are exactly right. I would not be even the tiniest bit surprised to learn they are doing exactly what you outlined; reducing cyrodiil server allocation to accommodate new zones. Performance declines fit this scenario perfectly.
    Soris wrote: »
    Performance is bad okay, Zos is unable to fix it okay too, but you guys keep playing in that campaign with all those ball groups and such, meanwhile Blackreach and Imperial City are dead empty.

    Blackreach is lag free in any time of day until high pop for all factions, which is very rare. If you are solo/duo/trio queue for somewhere else than Gray. Easy as that.

    Telling people to swap campaigns to fix performance is starting to feel like trolling at this point. For starters, it will do nothing to fix performance issues.

    Don't you think the problem is ZOS and anemic server investments? The problem certainly is not what campaign we decide to play in.

    The problem was identified at the release of the game, the game engine that they modified was not fit for purpose, it was called out by many at the time. This is why they have failed in all attempts to 'fix' performance and why improvements in hardware over time has not improved anything.

    What hardware improvements?

    Oh i don't mean ZOS has upgraded the relative power of their hardware, what I mean is cpu compute power in general has increased significantly since 2014 but PVP in ESO has not managed to increase 1 jot, which also points to poor coding/net code/engine design. Hero engine was not fit for purpose, and no amount of modification will fix that - which is pretty evident now to even the most staunch denialists.

    Ok, lets assume the Hero engine line is legit and not just a scapegoat for a business model that is less than respectful of the customer.

    What is preventing ZOS from building the game on an engine that will work?
  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
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    Kwoung wrote: »
    Soris wrote: »
    Performance is bad okay, Zos is unable to fix it okay too, but you guys keep playing in that campaign with all those ball groups and such, meanwhile Blackreach and Imperial City are dead empty.

    Blackreach is lag free in any time of day until high pop for all factions, which is very rare. If you are solo/duo/trio queue for somewhere else than Gray. Easy as that.

    Telling people to swap campaigns to fix performance is starting to feel like trolling at this point. For starters, it will do nothing to fix performance issues.

    Don't you think the problem is ZOS and anemic server investments? The problem certainly is not what campaign we decide to play in.

    The problem was identified at the release of the game, the game engine that they modified was not fit for purpose, it was called out by many at the time. This is why they have failed in all attempts to 'fix' performance and why improvements in hardware over time has not improved anything.

    What hardware improvements?

    I thought the same thing, they haven't improved any hardware since the games release as far as I can tell... they even keep dumping the new zones and everything else on the same old hardware they launched with spreading it thinner and thinner. It wouldn't surprise me one bit if they are simply repurposing the Cyrodiil servers for the new zones as they release them.

    They literally blamed global hardware shortages for the lack of performance improvements. You can't make this stuff up!


    The ESO EU and NA Datacenter hardware refresh is ongoing, but our timelines have been greatly extended by the global shortage of computer hardware. To give you all an idea of the impact, some key hardware devices are delayed by one year, most are delayed by 3-5 months. We had intended to have this process complete this year, but it has taken us far longer than we thought it would.


    https://www.elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/61335

    Edited by Jaraal on December 24, 2021 11:57PM
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • TechMaybeHic
    TechMaybeHic
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    I am positive it's been calculations moved to the server whether because of cheating or Stadia benefit. It seems they are working on improving their ability to catch cheating. I'd suspect they'd rather not disclose either as a cause
  • McTaterskins
    McTaterskins
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    i'm in a game right now


    What game is that? Platform?
  • _adhyffbjjjf12
    _adhyffbjjjf12
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    i'm in a game right now


    What game is that? Platform?

    GW2 WVW PC
  • _adhyffbjjjf12
    _adhyffbjjjf12
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    Accept that performance in Cyrodiil will never improve. I check these boards every few months just to see what's up, always the same posts. Quit the game or accept it.

    Very true. There comes a point in in a games lifecycle where performance is what it is, and all that's left is rewriting the core engine, which is basically a total game rewrite, so obviously won't happen. If you look back through the years, the chat has never changed, the performances has never improved, and the same problems exist and are worse in many ways due to the decimated PVP population.
  • Jaraal
    Jaraal
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    Crash427 wrote: »
    Vizirith wrote: »
    BuildMan wrote: »
    Vizirith wrote: »

    Go buy some crown crates if you want to kill guards /s

    [snip]

    [snip]

    Well of course they do. The (still) broken sets like Dark Convergence weren't dreamed up and implemented by PvE content creators.

    [edited to remove quote]
    Edited by ZOS_Icy on January 1, 2022 7:14PM
    RIP Bosmer Nation. 4/4/14 - 2/25/19.
  • _adhyffbjjjf12
    _adhyffbjjjf12
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    The fact that it all runs better when they bolster server strength during MYM is a testament against the "its the engine" argument.

    Upgrade hardware.
    Add graphical settings for console (so you can turn down graphic detail etc.)

    Other huge item?

    Since there seems to be a memory issue, and has been mentioned in streams/interviews in the past about how it gets difficult to add new animations etc....

    Ever noticed the wall of non-performance that hits as soon as you approach a resource or full spawned keep? The Cyro NPCs need their skills and animations updated to be the same as the current class representations and not the old versions of skills. It's extremely unlikely that this isn't eating up memory and process power.

    It doesn't, because it only temporarily improves performance relative to its own average performance, which is still a million miles away from where it should be, i.e other AAA games that offer open world pvp.

    An 'engine' refers to the core logic and development platform package that is meant to provide an abstraction over the programming language(s) to allow developers to compose games and focus on design rather than low level concerns. An engine not fit for purpose will not scale well among other things, which inevitably means either maxed out CPU or memory, or timeouts/message backlogs/bad response times. npc's are not the problem as they are scripted and therefore measurable and controllable - if that was the cause, they would be removed overnight. The problem is that the core code simply cannot scale properly with X number of players, and its clear X is extremely low. There was an early indication with this when ZOS did not realise trusted clients is not a suitable model for mmorpg, so they were forced to do what all other mmorpg do and that's move critical calcs to the server. If the engine was designed with this in mind from the start then it would not have had the impact that it had.
    Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on December 30, 2021 11:00AM
  • EdmondDontes
    EdmondDontes
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    The fact that it all runs better when they bolster server strength during MYM is a testament against the "its the engine" argument.

    Upgrade hardware.
    Add graphical settings for console (so you can turn down graphic detail etc.)

    Other huge item?

    Since there seems to be a memory issue, and has been mentioned in streams/interviews in the past about how it gets difficult to add new animations etc....

    Ever noticed the wall of non-performance that hits as soon as you approach a resource or full spawned keep? The Cyro NPCs need their skills and animations updated to be the same as the current class representations and not the old versions of skills. It's extremely unlikely that this isn't eating up memory and process power.

    It doesn't, because it only temporarily improves performance relative to its own average performance, which is still a million miles away from where it should be, i.e other AAA games that offer open world pvp.

    An 'engine' refers to the core logic and development platform package that is meant to provide an abstraction over the programming language(s) to allow developers to compose games and focus on design rather than low level concerns. An engine not fit for purpose will not scale well among other things, which inevitably means either maxed out CPU or memory, or timeouts/message backlogs/bad response times. npc's are not the problem as they are scripted and therefore measurable and controllable - if that was the cause, they would be removed overnight. The problem is that the core code simply cannot scale properly with X number of players, and its clear X is extremely low. There was an early indication with this when ZOS did not realise trusted clients is not a suitable model for mmorpg, so they were forced to do what all other mmorpg do and that's move critical calcs to the server. If the engine was designed with this in mind from the start then it would not have had the impact that it had.

    You make it sound like ZOS should have gotten to work on a new version of the game around a different engine from the beginning. They certainly have had enough time to realize what needs to be done and to get started on it.
  • _adhyffbjjjf12
    _adhyffbjjjf12
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    The fact that it all runs better when they bolster server strength during MYM is a testament against the "its the engine" argument.

    Upgrade hardware.
    Add graphical settings for console (so you can turn down graphic detail etc.)

    Other huge item?

    Since there seems to be a memory issue, and has been mentioned in streams/interviews in the past about how it gets difficult to add new animations etc....

    Ever noticed the wall of non-performance that hits as soon as you approach a resource or full spawned keep? The Cyro NPCs need their skills and animations updated to be the same as the current class representations and not the old versions of skills. It's extremely unlikely that this isn't eating up memory and process power.

    It doesn't, because it only temporarily improves performance relative to its own average performance, which is still a million miles away from where it should be, i.e other AAA games that offer open world pvp.

    An 'engine' refers to the core logic and development platform package that is meant to provide an abstraction over the programming language(s) to allow developers to compose games and focus on design rather than low level concerns. An engine not fit for purpose will not scale well among other things, which inevitably means either maxed out CPU or memory, or timeouts/message backlogs/bad response times. npc's are not the problem as they are scripted and therefore measurable and controllable - if that was the cause, they would be removed overnight. The problem is that the core code simply cannot scale properly with X number of players, and its clear X is extremely low. There was an early indication with this when ZOS did not realise trusted clients is not a suitable model for mmorpg, so they were forced to do what all other mmorpg do and that's move critical calcs to the server. If the engine was designed with this in mind from the start then it would not have had the impact that it had.

    You make it sound like ZOS should have gotten to work on a new version of the game around a different engine from the beginning. They certainly have had enough time to realize what needs to be done and to get started on it.

    Your right, there's a reason over the last years that they have tried and failed through tweaking and trial and error to fix issues, rewriting the engine would be a fundamental rewrite of the whole game. Over the last 9 years they have got good profits and player numbers despite the performance issues because PVE is largely not impacted, and the PVE is best in market imo until you run out, I loved it.

    Bottom line is that if they cannot fix in the first 9 years, then there will be very little chance in the next 9 years due to growing legacy code base and technical debt build up. As someone else put it, at this point you either except the performance as is, or move on.
    Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on December 30, 2021 1:49PM
  • _adhyffbjjjf12
    _adhyffbjjjf12
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    gepe87 wrote: »
    Expecting new servers since 2017…

    its smoke and mirrors and empty dangling carrots, any developers will tell you the solution to performance issues is not new servers :)
  • EdmondDontes
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    gepe87 wrote: »
    Expecting new servers since 2017…

    its smoke and mirrors and empty dangling carrots, any developers will tell you the solution to performance issues is not new servers :)

    How do you explain all the times ZOS has said they could fix it and are working on it?

    How do you explain that a few years ago population caps were much higher and performance was much better?

    How do you explain the fact that there has been plenty of time to initiate a rework of the game and they have chosen not to do so?

    If ZOS knows the engine is the problem, why have they been telling us a different story since day one?
  • _adhyffbjjjf12
    _adhyffbjjjf12
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    the word 'engine' is a generalisation, ZOS have mentioned performance issues over the years. they have in fact reportedly been trying to fix it for over 9 years. At the same time they need to be careful with their wording, bad PR = loss of income. Its also worth noting you can build a whole new game and/or engine in 5 years...

    All of which is moot, there is a saying, the facts speak for themselves. Anyone who has played this game since day 1 can testify to the ongoing issues, we don't need someone to confess to make it real. You may think that year 10 is the year that suddenly their promises come true, but its statistically unlikely now. It would be nice, but you know after 9 years its time to call a spade a spade.

    over the years....

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/search?Search=performance[url="http://"][/url]

    and same chat half a decade ago....

    https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/230687/lighting-patch
    Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on December 30, 2021 4:24PM
  • deleted221106-002999
    deleted221106-002999
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    What players mean by performance improvement: minimal lag, fast responsive controls/interface with no glitching, stutter or delay.

    What zos means by performance improvement: optimised server-side code so more players can run concurrently in extant hardware where x% of all players with y-apm(actions per minute) function acceptably. (where x,y and 'acceptable' are internally defined, but, I imagine, x is high, y is low and 'acceptable' is anyone's guess)

    Probably useful to get those definitons clarified by zos/us.

    In the second case seems to me they've achieved a fair bit. In the first case hardly any progress has been made at all but that's obviously subjective.
  • Kaysha
    Kaysha
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    What players mean by performance improvement: minimal lag, fast responsive controls/interface with no glitching, stutter or delay.

    What zos means by performance improvement: optimised server-side code so more players can run concurrently in extant hardware where x% of all players with y-apm(actions per minute) function acceptably. (where x,y and 'acceptable' are internally defined, but, I imagine, x is high, y is low and 'acceptable' is anyone's guess)

    Probably useful to get those definitons clarified by zos/us.

    In the second case seems to me they've achieved a fair bit. In the first case hardly any progress has been made at all but that's obviously subjective.

    No, what ZOS means by performance increase is the optimization of the game code in order to be able to use less hardware resources to get the same gaming results
  • _adhyffbjjjf12
    _adhyffbjjjf12
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    Kaysha wrote: »
    What players mean by performance improvement: minimal lag, fast responsive controls/interface with no glitching, stutter or delay.

    What zos means by performance improvement: optimised server-side code so more players can run concurrently in extant hardware where x% of all players with y-apm(actions per minute) function acceptably. (where x,y and 'acceptable' are internally defined, but, I imagine, x is high, y is low and 'acceptable' is anyone's guess)

    Probably useful to get those definitons clarified by zos/us.

    In the second case seems to me they've achieved a fair bit. In the first case hardly any progress has been made at all but that's obviously subjective.

    No, what ZOS means by performance increase is the optimization of the game code in order to be able to use less hardware resources to get the same gaming results

    No he is correct, the second case he refer to is to satisfy the first use case, i.e meet typical customer expectations for the given context. In this kind of situation, what should happen is that they have done in depth analysis of the metrics (not trial and error) to identify the strategic solutions required to permanently resolve the performance issues, and alongside this any cost effective tactical fixes in the mean time to try and stabilise (i.e the problem gets no worse) We have neither after 9 years, although we have seen signs of attempts for both.

    Edited by _adhyffbjjjf12 on January 1, 2022 2:17PM
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