Is it possible to decrease the base weapon/spell damage, like it was before update 29?

DrSlaughtr

I like that a base game class like dk got love because 99% of the time it's either warden or necro at 1 with the other being 2. But I do wish they didn't force NBs to use a cheese ball proc set like Caluurions to stay competitive.

divnyi

TheEndBringer wrote: »

But I do wish they didn't force NBs to use a cheese ball proc set like Caluurions to stay competitive.

You can still snipeblade in about any equipment. I run plagubreak + vicious death now and I'm constantly having positive KDA in BGs, while the build wasn't made with BG in mind.

NerfSeige

On one hand, I like that people die much faster now instead of a loooong ass fight on the same skill levels of people.

On the other hand, I’m laughing at zos saying they want to nerf the damage and yet people are parsing higher than ever.

So maybe, decrease the s/w damage and cut back on the decrease on battle spirit?

DrSlaughtr

NerfSeige wrote: »

On one hand, I like that people die much faster now instead of a loooong ass fight on the same skill levels of people.

On the other hand, I’m laughing at zos saying they want to nerf the damage and yet people are parsing higher than ever.

So maybe, decrease the s/w damage and cut back on the decrease on battle spirit?

TTK sucks on XB. Most groups are DK and Necro tanks. Some on bash builds. Some running DC. DK mostly running plague. It's really difficult to take them out, even with a ball group.

motemeno

I'm definitely getting trolled by you

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

What we could do is mathematically decrease damage output the higher resistances. So beginning at 28k armor you lose 1% damage. Cap it at 35k armor, where you lose 25% damage.

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure it's not perfect.

I share the annoyance with healing. The amount of times I burst someone down to 5% health but as soon as they break free they hit one skill and go to 100%.

Well it would have to be overall mitigation or everybody just puts on Swift, Potentate's, etc. This kind of gets to the OP's point again though, and it's the inverse of what everybody was complaining about for years that "defense is too easy to get": Damage is too easy to get. There already should be an appreciable decrease in damage output as you increase defense. You have to equip a defensive set to stay up, but you don't really need a damage set to take people down. For all people complained about Heavy Armor in the past I feel like Undeath and Protection were always overlooked.

Another roundabout way this might be addressed is by buffing Weapon Damage sets, so there's more reward for equipping them. Buffing Warrior and Apprentice, so there's more reward for running them over Serpent/Atro, making Vamp Stage 3 less attractive. And then, possibly decreasing damage in Battlespirit so we're at roughly the same place as a Pariah+Serpent build is on live. Or something like that. My point here is sources of Weapon Damage were not increased after the additional 1k Weapon Damage, making them relatively weaker. Sure, OP might say, but why not just decrease the additional 1k Weapon Damage? Well because I'm a StamDK and I can't advocate for less Weapon Damage.

Of course like many people have said many times simply separating Healing from Damage might fix a number of issues, but might cause other problems, and is perhaps too demanding and consequential of a change to everything in this game to even consider.

You understand the point of my discussion. The base weapon damage is to high, that is not worth to wear 2 offensive sets. They need to rework the entire damage output system, like they did when they added the new champions point system. Now you don't need to build a lot of damage to kill, since the base one is so high. This lead players to wear pariah, at all costs. Healings are strong, of course, i reach 6.3k wd in no-cp using new moon and tonal constancy, 2 sets that should not work. Why you can't kill another good player in a duel right now? Because with the strong stupid heals and the fact that you can equip a skill that reduces your damage taken by 10%, you're so tanky to die in a 1 v 1. They have to make the damage like it was before all these stupid patches, healing should be lower, so you need to keep always them up, to stay alive, not like it's now, that you just need a rally crit and you're back to full hp. Damage should be a lot lower, so you don't get bursted so easy, and you need to equip damage to deal damage. 1 damage set should be enough just to kill a 12k armor player that doesn't heal.
In no Cp, most of the small scalers left , due to the skill gap being so tiny right now, in 1 v x. They killed the only thing that was making this game different from other mmorpgs in terms of pvp: the fact that you can win fights against multiple players just by being better than them. Now zerg players can take you down so easy, just by spamming skills, since their damage is higher. The game is not skill-based like it was years ago. And the loss of community is a red flag. But Zos doesn't seem to be interested in it.

Urzigurumash

motemeno wrote: »

They killed the only thing that was making this game different from other mmorpgs in terms of pvp: the fact that you can win fights against multiple players just by being better than them. Now zerg players can take you down so easy, just by spamming skills, since their damage is higher. The game is not skill-based like it was years ago.

Yeah, I think your posts here are well-written and make great points. Good luck convincing others the problem is damage is too available. Many people actually want a ranged one-shot meta though, so that's something to keep in mind when discussing with others, and also many don't step out of CP Cyro where TTK has always been slower than every other PvP format. Just as my perspective is mostly as a Solo Queue BGs Brawler, even though I play other formats just as much - the differences between patches are laid bare in Solo Queue BGs, in my opinion.

I think the simplest, most straightforward adjustment that could possibly make combat more enjoyable across formats is to further reduce Healing in Battlespirit, say 5% more. Lots of things are actually balanced pretty well right now compared to prior years and people have build change fatigue.

Self-healing, non-healers cross healing. These are the principal culprits of frustrations in combat, in my eye. I'm not sure the Weapon / Spell Damage stat needs any reduction whatsoever as it pertains to dealing damage - but it definitely does as it pertains to Healing. Similarly, I'm all for raising Crit Damage Chance, but not Crit Heal Chance. People will of course blame Sword & Board and Heavy Armor yet again, as only some players use these things, while self-healing is universal - "everybody is in favor of brevity, as long as its somebody else's".

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

I have ZERO interest in going back to a time where fifteen minute 1v1s ended with no one getting a kill and everyone leaving out of sheer boredom.

motemeno

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

I have ZERO interest in going back to a time where fifteen minute 1v1s ended with no one getting a kill and everyone leaving out of sheer boredom.

You're telling me that now you can win 1 v 1 against good players? In cyro no-cp i have done four, maybe five 1 v 1, since no one is doing it because everyone is immortal in 1 v1, and all of them ended up with me or the enemy leaving the fight. To be honest i don't know what game you are playing to say that 1 v 1 are better now. In a 1 v 1, in this patch, you just need a rally, a BoL, an artic blast, or a good cauterize tick, to be full health again.

ResidentContrarian

Relatively speaking, the damage seems low to me.

Then again, I am all dolled up in % reduction on a glass build tearing through people like paper and being tanky.

Yeah, that would make me biased, wouldn't it?

DrSlaughtr

Decreasing the damage for everyone doesn't change the balance. You have to decrease damage based on tankiness. Health+Armor based damage debuff in battle spirit.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Decreasing the damage for everyone doesn't change the balance. You have to decrease damage based on tankiness. Health+Armor based damage debuff in battle spirit.

This would be interesting, making Resolve and Toughness into damage debuffs, but a simpler solution is to just buff the alternatives to whatever sources of Mitigation and Health are slowing down combat - which I don't think includes the differences in base resistances between the armor types. Not to an alarming degree anyhow, Medium Armor with Percentile Mitigation is much better than Heavy without. As demonstrated elsewhere Heavy Armor also get less relative Mitigation from those Percentiles.

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO

motemeno wrote: »

milesrodneymcneely2_ESO wrote: »

I have ZERO interest in going back to a time where fifteen minute 1v1s ended with no one getting a kill and everyone leaving out of sheer boredom.

You're telling me that now you can win 1 v 1 against good players? In cyro no-cp i have done four, maybe five 1 v 1, since no one is doing it because everyone is immortal in 1 v1, and all of them ended up with me or the enemy leaving the fight. To be honest i don't know what game you are playing to say that 1 v 1 are better now. In a 1 v 1, in this patch, you just need a rally, a BoL, an artic blast, or a good cauterize tick, to be full health again.

I’m a mediocre player on my BEST day. I’m almost 50, and can’t keep up with you twitchy young folks.

But I do occasionally win duels, even against tanky builds. I AM running a MagPlar, though, so it’s easy to push high damage while still being robust enough to survive a burst window.

motemeno

So you guys wanna decrease tankyness even more? Do you wanna completely destroy this game? You want this to be a full glass cannon game, 100% oneshoot or get oneshotted, with 0 canche to win a 2 v 1. Do you wanna make ESO the new bdo? The pvp community decrease is not an accident.

DrSlaughtr

motemeno wrote: »

So you guys wanna decrease tankyness even more? Do you wanna completely destroy this game? You want this to be a full glass cannon game, 100% oneshoot or get oneshotted, with 0 canche to win a 2 v 1. Do you wanna make ESO the new bdo? The pvp community decrease is not an accident.

Respectfully, what we want isn't to have to chase a player around for 5 minutes when the conclusion is inevitable. TTK is now too high. Well over half of Cyrodiil are running around with tanks builds but still dropping bombs.

Someone in 2-3 damage sets should do higher dps than a build running defense sets + malacath. If you wanna run a tank that can drag 12 people around a tower you shouldn't be able to drop an ultimate to wipe them. That's just basic MMO logic.

ZOS continues to rubberband back and forth on the damage potential on high health and/or high armor builds. They introduce Hrothgar to counter it, but only made it scale to armor. So players pushed max health instead. Then they nerfed Hrothgar to the point that it's competely ineffective.

baselesschart

motemeno wrote: »

So you guys wanna decrease tankyness even more? Do you wanna completely destroy this game? You want this to be a full glass cannon game, 100% oneshoot or get oneshotted, with 0 canche to win a 2 v 1. Do you wanna make ESO the new bdo? The pvp community decrease is not an accident.

The pvp population decrease honestly has nothing to do with high damage lol. If anything, the tanky metas drive people away more. I would rather everyone be glass cannon than tanks and I think most people would agree. You're not supposed to win a 2v1, it shouldn't work but it does sometimes because we have exceptional players that play this game.

motemeno

1vx is the only thing making eso different from other mmos. Play another game on this category if that's the gameplay you want. It's full of mmos, with impossible outnumbered pvp, and without heals to sustain more than 1 player. The cyrodil gameplay is ridicoulus: lag and big groups dominating the map. Make 1vx as good as it was before, you'll see good small scalers clearing these healers with 35k hp

Urzigurumash

baselesschart wrote: »

motemeno wrote: »

So you guys wanna decrease tankyness even more? Do you wanna completely destroy this game? You want this to be a full glass cannon game, 100% oneshoot or get oneshotted, with 0 canche to win a 2 v 1. Do you wanna make ESO the new bdo? The pvp community decrease is not an accident.

The pvp population decrease honestly has nothing to do with high damage lol. If anything, the tanky metas drive people away more. I would rather everyone be glass cannon than tanks and I think most people would agree. You're not supposed to win a 2v1, it shouldn't work but it does sometimes because we have exceptional players that play this game.

Why is Pariah more popular now than it was in 2019? It wasn't buffed.

The answer is the OP's point.

baselesschart

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Why is Pariah more popular now than it was in 2019? It wasn't buffed.

The answer is the OP's point.

People are always going to build tanky, but doesn't stop the fact that tank metas are highly annoying and boring

Urzigurumash

baselesschart wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Why is Pariah more popular now than it was in 2019? It wasn't buffed.

The answer is the OP's point.

People are always going to build tanky, but doesn't stop the fact that tank metas are highly annoying and boring

How can you tell if it's always been a constant tank meta, and everybody has always been building tanky? Boring and annoying compared to what?

baselesschart

Urzigurumash wrote: »

How can you tell if it's always been a constant tank meta, and everybody has always been building tanky? Boring and annoying compared to what?

It hasn't always been a tank meta, I've played in what I would've considered a damage meta before and it was a lot more fun when people died.

Urzigurumash

baselesschart wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

How can you tell if it's always been a constant tank meta, and everybody has always been building tanky? Boring and annoying compared to what?

It hasn't always been a tank meta, I've played in what I would've considered a damage meta before and it was a lot more fun when people died.

Why were they dying despite wearing Pariah or something like it and building just as tanky as they do now?

baselesschart

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Why were they dying despite wearing Pariah or something like it and building just as tanky as they do now?

Likely cause some patches they've adjusted damage to be higher, like when everyone got that free 1k damage. I remember tanks crying about it

Urzigurumash

baselesschart wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Why were they dying despite wearing Pariah or something like it and building just as tanky as they do now?

Likely cause some patches they've adjusted damage to be higher, like when everyone got that free 1k damage. I remember tanks crying about it

That was an adjustment to the Damage Stat, whether it meant lower or higher "Damage" overall depends on how that stat relates to other stats.

We still have that additional 1k Weapon Damage. Why is it a tank meta now and wasn't before?

baselesschart

Urzigurumash wrote: »

That was an adjustment to the Damage Stat, whether it meant lower or higher "Damage" overall depends on how that stat relates to other stats.

We still have that additional 1k Weapon Damage. Why is it a tank meta now and wasn't before?

I didn't say it wasn't a tank meta before, but to insinuate that we've never had a damage meta is just wrong

Urzigurumash

baselesschart wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

That was an adjustment to the Damage Stat, whether it meant lower or higher "Damage" overall depends on how that stat relates to other stats.

We still have that additional 1k Weapon Damage. Why is it a tank meta now and wasn't before?

I didn't say it wasn't a tank meta before, but to insinuate that we've never had a damage meta is just wrong

Again. Why wasn't Pariah always meta, every single patch since Wrothgar?

OP provided an answer. People are running so tanky right now because baseline damage is so high and because there is not a sufficient return for investing into further Weapon Damage over Mitigation - both because of the additional 1k Weapon/Spell Damage.

Buff Weapon Damage sets, restore Crit Chance to Medium, tone down the "Free Mitigation" of Percentile Buffs, etc. There are a number of ways to iron out this disequilibrium other than removing the additional 1k Weapon Damage, in my opinion, but the OP is absolutely correct in their diagnosis.

baselesschart

Urzigurumash wrote: »

OP provided an answer. People are running so tanky right now because baseline damage is so high and because there is not a sufficient return for investing into further Weapon Damage over Mitigation - both because of the additional 1k Weapon/Spell Damage.

Buff Weapon Damage sets, restore Crit Chance to Medium, tone down the "Free Mitigation" of Percentile Buffs, etc. There are a number of ways to iron out this disequilibrium other than removing the additional 1k Weapon Damage, in my opinion, but the OP is absolutely correct in their diagnosis.

I personally don't see a problem with the baseline damage right now, I think higher damage has always been healthier than everyone being tough to kill. [snip]

[edited for baiting]

Urzigurumash

baselesschart wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

OP provided an answer. People are running so tanky right now because baseline damage is so high and because there is not a sufficient return for investing into further Weapon Damage over Mitigation - both because of the additional 1k Weapon/Spell Damage.

Buff Weapon Damage sets, restore Crit Chance to Medium, tone down the "Free Mitigation" of Percentile Buffs, etc. There are a number of ways to iron out this disequilibrium other than removing the additional 1k Weapon Damage, in my opinion, but the OP is absolutely correct in their diagnosis.

I personally don't see a problem with the baseline damage right now, I think higher damage has always been healthier than everyone being tough to kill. [snip]

I'm not sure if you're missing the point or if after years of this game, DK and NB mains simply operate in two entirely different worlds with different systems of logic.

[edited to remove quote]

baselesschart

Urzigurumash wrote: »

I'm not sure if you're missing the point or if after years of this game, DK and NB mains simply operate in two entirely different worlds with different systems of logic.

Well then explain it to me so I can understand what is so terrible right now because I'm not really experiencing issues in pvp.

divnyi

Urzigurumash wrote: »

baselesschart wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

OP provided an answer. People are running so tanky right now because baseline damage is so high and because there is not a sufficient return for investing into further Weapon Damage over Mitigation - both because of the additional 1k Weapon/Spell Damage.

Buff Weapon Damage sets, restore Crit Chance to Medium, tone down the "Free Mitigation" of Percentile Buffs, etc. There are a number of ways to iron out this disequilibrium other than removing the additional 1k Weapon Damage, in my opinion, but the OP is absolutely correct in their diagnosis.

I personally don't see a problem with the baseline damage right now, I think higher damage has always been healthier than everyone being tough to kill. [snip]

I'm not sure if you're missing the point or if after years of this game, DK and NB mains simply operate in two entirely different worlds with different systems of logic.

Low base damage favors not only damage sets, but also damage sets that does not scale. We don't want another meta that consists of bash and heavy attack [snip].

The meta is fine now. People build armors because you are talking about cyro. Cyro players need armor to overcome lags.
Check what's happening in duels and BGs.

[edited for rude comment & to remove quote]

motemeno

divnyi wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

baselesschart wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

OP provided an answer. People are running so tanky right now because baseline damage is so high and because there is not a sufficient return for investing into further Weapon Damage over Mitigation - both because of the additional 1k Weapon/Spell Damage.

Buff Weapon Damage sets, restore Crit Chance to Medium, tone down the "Free Mitigation" of Percentile Buffs, etc. There are a number of ways to iron out this disequilibrium other than removing the additional 1k Weapon Damage, in my opinion, but the OP is absolutely correct in their diagnosis.

I personally don't see a problem with the baseline damage right now, I think higher damage has always been healthier than everyone being tough to kill. [snip]

I'm not sure if you're missing the point or if after years of this game, DK and NB mains simply operate in two entirely different worlds with different systems of logic.

Low base damage favors not only damage sets, but also damage sets that does not scale. We don't want another meta that consists of bash and heavy attack [snip].

The meta is fine now. People build armors because you are talking about cyro. Cyro players need armor to overcome lags.
Check what's happening in duels and BGs.

Damage is fine, in facts people need to run 35k armor, and find exploits to play their proc sets in no-proc campaing
People should build full damage to deal damage, and armor to be tanky. The mitigation is just better than the damage right now, because if you don't build enough armor, you're like butter.
People don't build armor cause of the lag, they do it to survive. After what you said, i don't think you have a clear point of the cyrodil situation.

[edited to remove quote]