Is it possible to decrease the base weapon/spell damage, like it was before update 29?

motemeno

The damage output is insanely high. And no one is arguing about that, this is really strange.
When the update 29 was released, the cp rework forced the company to increase the base weapon damage, spell damage to 1000, from 0, and the base magicka and stamina by 3000. This has most likely destroyed the gameplay on no-cp campaign . Everyone is forced to run at least a set that gives you tankyness to survive more than 1 player. This has led to a tank meta where everyone is having 30k+ armor, 30k+ more health,even players in ball groups. The problem is that the armor you get from sets, haven't changed, so the incoming damage is higher. Before this change, the ability of the player was to always keep heals up, and kite around, now this is not enough to survive. You killed immortal tanks, but force everyone to be more tanky than before. with 32k armor, and revealing flare slotted, the damage is still to high, 1 single crystal fragment or assassin's scourge shouldn't deal me damage equal to 1/3 or 1/4 of my life. The gameplay is not funny and balanced like it was before all this changes. No-cp cyrodil should have the base weapon ad spell damage lowered to 0, like it was before. so you need to build damage to deal damage and build tankyness to tank. Now you're literally force to equip at least one tank set to be at least competitive. In no-cp high weapon damage is required to make proc sets working. These changes killed the pvp community, for what i know, in no-cp eu. There are few pvp dedicated guild, and i'm not talking about Campaign guilds. The pvp community is dying. We love eso combat system (is so skilled, funny, various), but we hate the actual state of pvp. The game is not as good as it was on the good old times.
Revealing flare shouldn't apply major protection. this is encouraging zerg gameplay, groups of 20 players running around the map and smashing everything. Groups shouldn't be so big in cyrodil.
Another problem is malacath still working in no-cp. what is the point to call it a No proc campaign, than a set like this is still working? and i don't wanna spend a word on other sets that shouldn't be working on no-cp, but are still doing their job.
This is what i think about the game i have left to try other mmos, and then i went back to.

xylena_lazarow

motemeno wrote: »

The damage output is insanely high.

This is subjective. I find it still somewhat tanky, but much better than "tanks in 3 damage sets."

Vevvev

If they did that they'd have to adjust the scaling on a lot of things that have taken into account the change in the amount of spell and weapon damage. Honestly, I don't see a problem with the current damage numbers because we still have super tanky foes running around able to absorb an insane amount of damage, and you want to make it harder to take them out?

katorga

1 single crystal fragment or assassin's scourge shouldn't deal me damage equal to 1/3 or 1/4 of my life.

Why "shouldn't" it?

ZOS has scaled it specifically so that these skills should do that much damage.

MentalxHammer

Really I’m feeling like damage is in a good spot, I will say that healing feels significantly more difficult after the 50-55% reduction from battle spirit a few patches ago. This might be the reason we feel less tanky in general

motemeno

Vevvev wrote: »

If they did that they'd have to adjust the scaling on a lot of things that have taken into account the change in the amount of spell and weapon damage. Honestly, I don't see a problem with the current damage numbers because we still have super tanky foes running around able to absorb an insane amount of damage, and you want to make it harder to take them out?

And imagine they still have chance to do some sort of damage even not building damage, since the base amount of wd is so high... and imagine the fact that if you build 2 damage sets, u deal almost the same damage of just 1 set, but you can't tank more than 1 player.

motemeno

katorga wrote: »

1 single crystal fragment or assassin's scourge shouldn't deal me damage equal to 1/3 or 1/4 of my life.

Why "shouldn't" it?

ZOS has scaled it specifically so that these skills should do that much damage.

sure, it is really good that no-cp in eu is empty. And try to talk with og players, they'll tell you that the game changes have made this game worse than it was before.
The damage of some skills and in general the damage output is terrible, because it destroys the outnumbered PVP gameplay, and this is a thing that only ESO has. The changes on damage made solo playing impossible, and zergs or ball groups are going to be undefeated. That's really the game you want?
Before this change, you had to build 2 damage sets to deal damage, only 1 wasn't enough. Now you need to build 1 defensive set, to tank 2 players, but you can't do it like it was before. They changed the damage output, and didn't change battle spirit to balance the game like it was before.
You haven't probably played when there were only few sets, years ago. The game was so balanced, the damage output relied on hands of the player, not on sets. You needed to make a good combo to deal damage, you had to keep heals up, kite. Now this is not enough to survive a group.

divnyi

I like when players die. Previous to damage increase we had 4vs4 stalemates for several minutes in BGs. Glad those times are over.

baselesschart

motemeno wrote: »

sure, it is really good that no-cp in eu is empty. And try to talk with og players, they'll tell you that the game changes have made this game worse than it was before.
The damage of some skills and in general the damage output is terrible, because it destroys the outnumbered PVP gameplay, and this is a thing that only ESO has. The changes on damage made solo playing impossible, and zergs or ball groups are going to be undefeated. That's really the game you want?
Before this change, you had to build 2 damage sets to deal damage, only 1 wasn't enough. Now you need to build 1 defensive set, to tank 2 players, but you can't do it like it was before. They changed the damage output, and didn't change battle spirit to balance the game like it was before.
You haven't probably played when there were only few sets, years ago. The game was so balanced, the damage output relied on hands of the player, not on sets. You needed to make a good combo to deal damage, you had to keep heals up, kite. Now this is not enough to survive a group.

People have been running defensive sets way before this change dude. Your approach is wrong. You're never going to tank two players if they are competent with their classes and at executing combos, you just won't so stop trying.

And "years ago" there was a massive proc meta, I'd argue bigger than any recent one we've had. You had people running around wearing nothing but huge damage proc sets, activating one ability and you would be dead. It was more balanced in the sense that warden and necro weren't a thing so there is that. If they weren't running procs they were likely running some op tank build.

There are a multitude of different reasons as to why you can't solo, some are in your control and some aren't. Like I have stated above, you against several good players in a group, you are not going to win that fight. You will either die or have to forfeit that fight. That's not new either, you have never been able to solo good players, you have to cross your fingers and hope you're fighting potatoes.

xDeusEJRx

Vevvev wrote: »

If they did that they'd have to adjust the scaling on a lot of things that have taken into account the change in the amount of spell and weapon damage. Honestly, I don't see a problem with the current damage numbers because we still have super tanky foes running around able to absorb an insane amount of damage, and you want to make it harder to take them out?

I don't think argument works tbh, they had to up damage reduction in PVP and nerf healing to scale back the amount of innate damage people had in the first place because damage had reached insane numbers, even back in no proc. The battle spirit nerf helped to somewhat even out damage output. If the free damage was gone, they definitely could easily tone down on the mitigation/healing nerf subsequently

motemeno

baselesschart wrote: »

motemeno wrote: »

sure, it is really good that no-cp in eu is empty. And try to talk with og players, they'll tell you that the game changes have made this game worse than it was before.
The damage of some skills and in general the damage output is terrible, because it destroys the outnumbered PVP gameplay, and this is a thing that only ESO has. The changes on damage made solo playing impossible, and zergs or ball groups are going to be undefeated. That's really the game you want?
Before this change, you had to build 2 damage sets to deal damage, only 1 wasn't enough. Now you need to build 1 defensive set, to tank 2 players, but you can't do it like it was before. They changed the damage output, and didn't change battle spirit to balance the game like it was before.
You haven't probably played when there were only few sets, years ago. The game was so balanced, the damage output relied on hands of the player, not on sets. You needed to make a good combo to deal damage, you had to keep heals up, kite. Now this is not enough to survive a group.

People have been running defensive sets way before this change dude. Your approach is wrong. You're never going to tank two players if they are competent with their classes and at executing combos, you just won't so stop trying.

And "years ago" there was a massive proc meta, I'd argue bigger than any recent one we've had. You had people running around wearing nothing but huge damage proc sets, activating one ability and you would be dead. It was more balanced in the sense that warden and necro weren't a thing so there is that. If they weren't running procs they were likely running some op tank build.

There are a multitude of different reasons as to why you can't solo, some are in your control and some aren't. Like I have stated above, you against several good players in a group, you are not going to win that fight. You will either die or have to forfeit that fight. That's not new either, you have never been able to solo good players, you have to cross your fingers and hope you're fighting potatoes.

I'm not talkin about good players. It always been hard (almost impossible) to play aginst 2 good players. The problem is that now, even playing against bad players is super hard. Before these changes you could survive 5-6 players, now you just can't. And that's it. The damage output has increased. Solo playing in cyrodil is dead. You are all happy zerging and using group heals with 30k health and armor.
I know the patch you mean, when reverbatinf bash with tremorscale could oneshoot you. And i won't say this was a good patch. I'm talking about good ones, with few normal and moster sets available.

baselesschart

motemeno wrote: »

I'm not talkin about good players. It always been hard (almost impossible) to play aginst 2 good players. The problem is that now, even playing against bad players is super hard. Before these changes you could survive 5-6 players, now you just can't. And that's it. The damage output has increased. Solo playing in cyrodil is dead. You are all happy zerging and using group heals with 30k health and armor.
I know the patch you mean, when reverbatinf bash with tremorscale could oneshoot you. And i won't say this was a good patch. I'm talking about good ones, with few normal and moster sets available.

1vxing 5-6 players will be hard, I can't think of a time it was easy to be honest. Even soloing bad players can be hard because its not hard to lay down damage in numbers. Just the other day I had 5 potatoes trying to kill me but I still managed to kill all of them. You just have to be aware of your surroundings and your resource management to sustain that fight. Solo isn't dead, not yet anyways, they keep killing a part of it every patch.

motemeno

baselesschart wrote: »

motemeno wrote: »

I'm not talkin about good players. It always been hard (almost impossible) to play aginst 2 good players. The problem is that now, even playing against bad players is super hard. Before these changes you could survive 5-6 players, now you just can't. And that's it. The damage output has increased. Solo playing in cyrodil is dead. You are all happy zerging and using group heals with 30k health and armor.
I know the patch you mean, when reverbatinf bash with tremorscale could oneshoot you. And i won't say this was a good patch. I'm talking about good ones, with few normal and moster sets available.

1vxing 5-6 players will be hard, I can't think of a time it was easy to be honest. Even soloing bad players can be hard because its not hard to lay down damage in numbers. Just the other day I had 5 potatoes trying to kill me but I still managed to kill all of them. You just have to be aware of your surroundings and your resource management to sustain that fight. Solo isn't dead, not yet anyways, they keep killing a part of it every patch.

baselesschart wrote: »

motemeno wrote: »

I'm not talkin about good players. It always been hard (almost impossible) to play aginst 2 good players. The problem is that now, even playing against bad players is super hard. Before these changes you could survive 5-6 players, now you just can't. And that's it. The damage output has increased. Solo playing in cyrodil is dead. You are all happy zerging and using group heals with 30k health and armor.
I know the patch you mean, when reverbatinf bash with tremorscale could oneshoot you. And i won't say this was a good patch. I'm talking about good ones, with few normal and moster sets available.

1vxing 5-6 players will be hard, I can't think of a time it was easy to be honest. Even soloing bad players can be hard because its not hard to lay down damage in numbers. Just the other day I had 5 potatoes trying to kill me but I still managed to kill all of them. You just have to be aware of your surroundings and your resource management to sustain that fight. Solo isn't dead, not yet anyways, they keep killing a part of it every patch.

You just can't overheal 2-3 players using their spammable on you, even if they are terrible at the game. It's as if they had lowered the skill gap between players. Anyway it's their problem if their game is dying.

Aektann

If you trying to overheal 2-3 players you are that «terrible player». Good pvp players killing enemies one by one, or with right timing and aoe burst. This «look I have 40k mitigation and 40k HP with insane healing» people not good pvpers at all. So hight damage is good for pvp actually

birdik

Damage is okay, healing is high, crossheal should go

baselesschart

motemeno wrote: »

You just can't overheal 2-3 players using their spammable on you, even if they are terrible at the game. It's as if they had lowered the skill gap between players. Anyway it's their problem if their game is dying.

If you main a warden or necro you could probably heal through that long enough to execute a combo to kill one of the players. As for me who plays a nightblade I don't have that option to sit and heal through damage so LoS is the solution. Honestly a big part of 1vx is stringing them out one by one and making something like a 1v5 more like 5 1v1s.

milllaurie

baselesschart wrote: »

motemeno wrote: »

You just can't overheal 2-3 players using their spammable on you, even if they are terrible at the game. It's as if they had lowered the skill gap between players. Anyway it's their problem if their game is dying.

If you main a warden or necro you could probably heal through that long enough to execute a combo to kill one of the players. As for me who plays a nightblade I don't have that option to sit and heal through damage so LoS is the solution. Honestly a big part of 1vx is stringing them out one by one and making something like a 1v5 more like 5 1v1s.

Or, if you have a good burst ready, it can be a surprise 1 V unbuffed5 dump

motemeno

Aektann wrote: »

If you trying to overheal 2-3 players you are that «terrible player». Good pvp players killing enemies one by one, or with right timing and aoe burst. This «look I have 40k mitigation and 40k HP with insane healing» people not good pvpers at all. So hight damage is good for pvp actually

i don't know who you are, but you seem the typical nightblade player. For every other class you only run and heal, hoping they won't burst you, and you can't overheal the incoming damage. I wonder if all the people that write on the forums have ever played cyrodil, but ok, keep the game like that. Won't be a surprise seeing zergs running around uncontested.

motemeno

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4ZNyYUguy4
try to go offensive against more than 2 players. Having to run all the time is not 1 v x.

motemeno

We had 2 weeks of No-proc and with the old weapon/spell damage and stats, and the game was a pure heaven. It was so balanced to play. Having 25k armor was a lot, and you needed to build 2 damage sets to deal real damages, while the incoming damage wasn't so high, that every trash player with a 2 ppl group could almost oneshoot you.

baselesschart

motemeno wrote: »

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R4ZNyYUguy4
try to go offensive against more than 2 players. Having to run all the time is not 1 v x.

You're kinda just running around and not doing anything which is part of why you're taking so much damage. What has stayed true for a long time is a good offense is a good defense. If someone, like the mag sorc in that clip is laying down heavy pressure you do the same to them and it will alleviate that burst being dealt to you. Also I always run cauterize on stam dk personally, its a pretty fat heal when it ticks.

And you can't apply the same expectation to every outnumbered fight. Some fights include better or worse players. Depending on how good your opponents are you may not even be able to take two, hell maybe only one of them is too much.

DrSlaughtr

Damage is too low if anything since they reintroduced the ability to build a tank while outputting high damage. Nothing like a 32k DK leading 6+ in a game of ring around the rosey before dropping a 15k take leap.

divnyi

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Damage is too low if anything since they reintroduced the ability to build a tank while outputting high damage. Nothing like a 32k DK leading 6+ in a game of ring around the rosey before dropping a 15k take leap.

I agree that we are still in "bruisers are effective and don't die to a single maxed-out damage player in 1vs1".

Probably the basis of all those 1vX, really. Any decent players get bored of hitting something that doesn't die and cannot kill you too, and that bruiser is well capable of killing players with lower HP & healing.

But I'd argue that we need more damage. More damage means players would be able to hit new highs of burst. We don't want that. That will force players to throw out any 25k-27k builds into the bin and roll 30k+ bruisers just to stay alive.

Imo, we need less healing. I'm not even talking about regen/vigor stacking (but that should go too), I'm talking about healing overall. It should be.. idk, 20-30% lower, so you won't be able to facetank the damage without even blocking, without even spamming spammable heals.

Top tier DPS should put pressure on anyone in some form.
If you block, that's block cost.
If you HoTs stack, health should go down slowly.
If you spammable heal, mana reserves should go down.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Damage is too low if anything since they reintroduced the ability to build a tank while outputting high damage. Nothing like a 32k DK leading 6+ in a game of ring around the rosey before dropping a 15k take leap.

You know us Console StamDKs been waiting 6.5 years for a patch like this. So far this patch it seems fair to say DK gained the most, NB lost the most, which I guess was predictable from the patch notes. I think it's always in NB's interest to have damage as high as possible. I thought damage (and healing) was definitely too high last patch, but it might just be because of DC, the first version of Hrothgar, etc., leaving that general impression.

If NB should be the best at ganking, DK should be the best at dealing damage while tanking.

DrSlaughtr

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Damage is too low if anything since they reintroduced the ability to build a tank while outputting high damage. Nothing like a 32k DK leading 6+ in a game of ring around the rosey before dropping a 15k take leap.

You know us Console StamDKs been waiting 6.5 years for a patch like this. So far this patch it seems fair to say DK gained the most, NB lost the most, which I guess was predictable from the patch notes. I think it's always in NB's interest to have damage as high as possible. I thought damage (and healing) was definitely too high last patch, but it might just be because of DC, the first version of Hrothgar, etc., leaving that general impression.

If NB should be the best at ganking, DK should be the best at dealing damage while tanking.

That was one example I gave. Necros tankier than ever, leading gangs around obstacles then wiping them with two skills.

Last patch had a great balance imo other than dark convergence.

People already complaining about Caluurions but that is all nightblades have to come close to killing anyone.

I tested two full damage set ups. One had me over 8k damage and 12k+ pen. The other had me at 7.7k damage and 17k pen. Those should have made it possible to kill most builds but it failed because NBs need burst to take down anyone and all the damage and pen in the world can't overcome the nerfs to crit. We needed crit to compete.

Killing crit % and damage really put us in a hard spot. And no one likes using Caluurions.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Damage is too low if anything since they reintroduced the ability to build a tank while outputting high damage. Nothing like a 32k DK leading 6+ in a game of ring around the rosey before dropping a 15k take leap.

You know us Console StamDKs been waiting 6.5 years for a patch like this. So far this patch it seems fair to say DK gained the most, NB lost the most, which I guess was predictable from the patch notes. I think it's always in NB's interest to have damage as high as possible. I thought damage (and healing) was definitely too high last patch, but it might just be because of DC, the first version of Hrothgar, etc., leaving that general impression.

If NB should be the best at ganking, DK should be the best at dealing damage while tanking.

That was one example I gave. Necros tankier than ever, leading gangs around obstacles then wiping them with two skills.

Last patch had a great balance imo other than dark convergence.

People already complaining about Caluurions but that is all nightblades have to come close to killing anyone.

I tested two full damage set ups. One had me over 8k damage and 12k+ pen. The other had me at 7.7k damage and 17k pen. Those should have made it possible to kill most builds but it failed because NBs need burst to take down anyone and all the damage and pen in the world can't overcome the nerfs to crit. We needed crit to compete.

Killing crit % and damage really put us in a hard spot. And no one likes using Caluurions.

Yeah. That sort of gets to the point of this post, not being able to take players down on NB like you should be - a player can put on a Weapon Damage set and increase their damage output / offensive-scaled heals by 10%, or put on a defensive set and increase their mitigation by 20%. An alternative perhaps, which I've thought was a good idea for a while, is to simply increase the base mitigation of all armor, to shake players off defensive sets, off Vamp Stage 3, etc. All of these things would become relatively weaker if base mitigation were increased. Healing would definitely need a bit more reduction in Battlespirit though.

Obviously I'm on StamDK, I would never want the Weapon Damage stat to be lower, but my experience in last patch was that TTK was quite good in Cyro minus the new proc sets, but a bit too short in BGs, compared to what I remember as the most enjoyable / skillful patches in BGs.

I know nothing about playing NB. Perhaps you're putting too much into Damage and Penetration and not Crit Chance? I see other players have caught on to the reality that with the additional 1k Weapon Damage, we can run less Stam than before with the same damage output. Incidentally this also allows players to invest more into Stam Regen over Max Stam - which makes Vamp Stage 3 more tolerable.

DrSlaughtr

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Damage is too low if anything since they reintroduced the ability to build a tank while outputting high damage. Nothing like a 32k DK leading 6+ in a game of ring around the rosey before dropping a 15k take leap.

You know us Console StamDKs been waiting 6.5 years for a patch like this. So far this patch it seems fair to say DK gained the most, NB lost the most, which I guess was predictable from the patch notes. I think it's always in NB's interest to have damage as high as possible. I thought damage (and healing) was definitely too high last patch, but it might just be because of DC, the first version of Hrothgar, etc., leaving that general impression.

If NB should be the best at ganking, DK should be the best at dealing damage while tanking.

That was one example I gave. Necros tankier than ever, leading gangs around obstacles then wiping them with two skills.

Last patch had a great balance imo other than dark convergence.

People already complaining about Caluurions but that is all nightblades have to come close to killing anyone.

I tested two full damage set ups. One had me over 8k damage and 12k+ pen. The other had me at 7.7k damage and 17k pen. Those should have made it possible to kill most builds but it failed because NBs need burst to take down anyone and all the damage and pen in the world can't overcome the nerfs to crit. We needed crit to compete.

Killing crit % and damage really put us in a hard spot. And no one likes using Caluurions.

Yeah. That sort of gets to the point of this post, not being able to take players down on NB like you should be - a player can put on a Weapon Damage set and increase their damage output / offensive-scaled heals by 10%, or put on a defensive set and increase their mitigation by 20%. An alternative perhaps, which I've thought was a good idea for a while, is to simply increase the base mitigation of all armor, to shake players off defensive sets, off Vamp Stage 3, etc. All of these things would become relatively weaker if base mitigation were increased. Healing would definitely need a bit more reduction in Battlespirit though.

Obviously I'm on StamDK, I would never want the Weapon Damage stat to be lower, but my experience in last patch was that TTK was quite good in Cyro minus the new proc sets, but a bit too short in BGs, compared to what I remember as the most enjoyable / skillful patches in BGs.

I know nothing about playing NB. Perhaps you're putting too much into Damage and Penetration and not Crit Chance? I see other players have caught on to the reality that with the additional 1k Weapon Damage, we can run less Stam than before with the same damage output. Incidentally this also allows players to invest more into Stam Regen over Max Stam - which makes Vamp Stage 3 more tolerable.

If you run thief mundus with all divines you get about 10%, which still only puts me at 35%. If I wear leviathan, I get about 5%. I've however sacrificed so much damage and pen to get over 40% crit chance that most of my attacks do little to no damage.

The reason mechanical worked is it circumvented the nerf to crit chance. Before they dumped the %, you could wear heartland and new moon and compete with 50% crit. After that patch the same build put me at 30%. That's why I had to begrudgingly use MA until this patch.

Now it's Caluurions. It's the only way to make up that damage drop and the massive increase to tankiness.

I use vamp 3 but I really think they should replace the damage mitigation with something else. Every dk, warden and necro I know is on stage 3 all the time and it keeps them from getting killed in situations where they absolutely should die.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Damage is too low if anything since they reintroduced the ability to build a tank while outputting high damage. Nothing like a 32k DK leading 6+ in a game of ring around the rosey before dropping a 15k take leap.

You know us Console StamDKs been waiting 6.5 years for a patch like this. So far this patch it seems fair to say DK gained the most, NB lost the most, which I guess was predictable from the patch notes. I think it's always in NB's interest to have damage as high as possible. I thought damage (and healing) was definitely too high last patch, but it might just be because of DC, the first version of Hrothgar, etc., leaving that general impression.

If NB should be the best at ganking, DK should be the best at dealing damage while tanking.

That was one example I gave. Necros tankier than ever, leading gangs around obstacles then wiping them with two skills.

Last patch had a great balance imo other than dark convergence.

People already complaining about Caluurions but that is all nightblades have to come close to killing anyone.

I tested two full damage set ups. One had me over 8k damage and 12k+ pen. The other had me at 7.7k damage and 17k pen. Those should have made it possible to kill most builds but it failed because NBs need burst to take down anyone and all the damage and pen in the world can't overcome the nerfs to crit. We needed crit to compete.

Killing crit % and damage really put us in a hard spot. And no one likes using Caluurions.

Yeah. That sort of gets to the point of this post, not being able to take players down on NB like you should be - a player can put on a Weapon Damage set and increase their damage output / offensive-scaled heals by 10%, or put on a defensive set and increase their mitigation by 20%. An alternative perhaps, which I've thought was a good idea for a while, is to simply increase the base mitigation of all armor, to shake players off defensive sets, off Vamp Stage 3, etc. All of these things would become relatively weaker if base mitigation were increased. Healing would definitely need a bit more reduction in Battlespirit though.

Obviously I'm on StamDK, I would never want the Weapon Damage stat to be lower, but my experience in last patch was that TTK was quite good in Cyro minus the new proc sets, but a bit too short in BGs, compared to what I remember as the most enjoyable / skillful patches in BGs.

I know nothing about playing NB. Perhaps you're putting too much into Damage and Penetration and not Crit Chance? I see other players have caught on to the reality that with the additional 1k Weapon Damage, we can run less Stam than before with the same damage output. Incidentally this also allows players to invest more into Stam Regen over Max Stam - which makes Vamp Stage 3 more tolerable.

If you run thief mundus with all divines you get about 10%, which still only puts me at 35%. If I wear leviathan, I get about 5%. I've however sacrificed so much damage and pen to get over 40% crit chance that most of my attacks do little to no damage.

The reason mechanical worked is it circumvented the nerf to crit chance. Before they dumped the %, you could wear heartland and new moon and compete with 50% crit. After that patch the same build put me at 30%. That's why I had to begrudgingly use MA until this patch.

Now it's Caluurions. It's the only way to make up that damage drop and the massive increase to tankiness.

I use vamp 3 but I really think they should replace the damage mitigation with something else. Every dk, warden and necro I know is on stage 3 all the time and it keeps them from getting killed in situations where they absolutely should die.

Those Crit Chance numbers are in Medium though right? Understood that putting on Light is a hit to other stats.

You're absolutely right about Undeath. I dropped Vamp so far this patch to see what it's like to sustain Whip without it. I can run a Mundus other than Serpent now and be just fine, no Heavies needed, but I get 50% to zero'd in the blink of an eye - which again gets to the OP's point. With Undeath I can get out of situations with 5% health all the time. As we all know if you can hang on for just another second on DK or Necro you get another life if your Ult pops.

There's another thread going on right now, "Defensive sets other than Pariah". Interesting math there - I wonder what could be done to make a clearer dichotomy between either Armor or % Mitigation, rather than stacking both? Or - could this issue be addressed through Damage Shields?

Buff the base mitigation of Heavy, and Undeath is weaker. Sustain is more difficult. It might give players a net increase in mitigation above 50%, but less below 50%. It might extend TTK a bit, but it wouldn't be so frustrating to constantly have people slip away at 5% health. NBs slip away from me at low health all the time too.

DrSlaughtr

What we could do is mathematically decrease damage output the higher resistances. So beginning at 28k armor you lose 1% damage. Cap it at 35k armor, where you lose 25% damage.

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure it's not perfect.

I share the annoyance with healing. The amount of times I burst someone down to 5% health but as soon as they break free they hit one skill and go to 100%.

Urzigurumash

TheEndBringer wrote: »

What we could do is mathematically decrease damage output the higher resistances. So beginning at 28k armor you lose 1% damage. Cap it at 35k armor, where you lose 25% damage.

That's just off the top of my head. I'm sure it's not perfect.

I share the annoyance with healing. The amount of times I burst someone down to 5% health but as soon as they break free they hit one skill and go to 100%.

Well it would have to be overall mitigation or everybody just puts on Swift, Potentate's, etc. This kind of gets to the OP's point again though, and it's the inverse of what everybody was complaining about for years that "defense is too easy to get": Damage is too easy to get. There already should be an appreciable decrease in damage output as you increase defense. You have to equip a defensive set to stay up, but you don't really need a damage set to take people down. For all people complained about Heavy Armor in the past I feel like Undeath and Protection were always overlooked.

Another roundabout way this might be addressed is by buffing Weapon Damage sets, so there's more reward for equipping them. Buffing Warrior and Apprentice, so there's more reward for running them over Serpent/Atro, making Vamp Stage 3 less attractive. And then, possibly decreasing damage in Battlespirit so we're at roughly the same place as a Pariah+Serpent build is on live. Or something like that. My point here is sources of Weapon Damage were not increased after the additional 1k Weapon Damage, making them relatively weaker. Sure, OP might say, but why not just decrease the additional 1k Weapon Damage? Well because I'm a StamDK and I can't advocate for less Weapon Damage.

Of course like many people have said many times simply separating Healing from Damage might fix a number of issues, but might cause other problems, and is perhaps too demanding and consequential of a change to everything in this game to even consider.

Urzigurumash

All that being said, we should of course appreciate that this is, so far, close to one of the best patches Class Balance-wise in years. That might disregard how far StamBlade has fallen with the loss of Crit Chance on Medium and the cap on Crit Damage, tbd on Xbox NA? I assume MagDen still needs some buffs for solo play, I've only fought one or two of the well-known 5 stars on the class so far this patch. "Solo play outside of ganking is casual".. yeah ok, so what, people are still going to decide which class to "main" based partly on how it feels solo, and outside of Heavy Attack ganking I think Solo MagDen has needed buffs for a long time.