Overland Content Feedback Thread

Kallykat

Deserrick wrote: »

Apollosipod wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

I literally have a video of a naked level 3 AFKing in front of a bear attack for a minute and a half without dying in my signature. It's been there for years and we're still having this debate whether or not the playerbase finds overland challenging. It's a joke.

A level 3 gets significant boosts in order to make up for the lack of stat and skill points. On a level 50, the results would be different.

I'm aware but it's not that much of a different scenario for endgame players either. Not even talking meta players, just normal people who have blue/purple gear, stats allocated and some champion points. I was able to walk away from combat encounters to grab a drink upstairs last time I played. Doubt it's changed much.

Right. A naked level 3 is much different from a naked level 50, and is more akin to a well-equipped level 50.

Normal people are not guaranteed to have blue/purple gear. Playing normally, questing and using what you find from enemies you come across and what you receive as rewards, results in a character with white/green gear that often is below the character level and either does not make a complete set, or can make a complete set by using more under-leveled gear. Equipped like this, questing is challenging, and delves quite often necessitate at least one other person.

I've just been following a long this thread and, for my own part, believe that there should be an optional slider so everyone can enjoy the game they want to and that shouldn't be some hill everyone has to die on.

But to say that a player who plays through the game or just casually plays the story will end up having mismatching white or green is just disingenuous. Even starting a new character before and after level 50, I have never ended up with white or green gear that doesn't at least give me some bonus. If someone has made it to level 50 (or hell, 25) and they are in that situation then they aren't even reading the screen. Implying that people end up in that situation is just insulting

It's not disingenuous or insulting, it is a natural result of using what you get while questing. Starting from level 3 and following the story quests, you outlevel the gear you have. Completing all zone quests before moving on, you may get enough gear to have complete sets, but the pieces would likely be at different levels, and not always with the weights, traits, and enchantments that would have been preferred. Then when you move on to the next zone in the story, entirely different overland sets are dropped and rewarded, meaning that replacing your outleveled equipment will lose your set bonuses until you get enough equipment from the new zone to fulfill new set bonuses, again with this new equipment being at different levels, weights, traits, and enchantments.

As an alt-oholic who has leveled many characters and who detests grinding for gear and usually uses what I find through overland questing, I can attest that this is exactly what happens. I end up with gear of various colors and can only keep a full set as I tackle a new zone by sacrificing the gear level. In other words, I can often equip a newly found gear item at my current level only if I sacrifice the quality, set cohesion, or preferred trait. Therefore, I end often end up with under-leveled gear in order to maintain a cohesive set.

spartaxoxo

Apollosipod wrote: »

If someone has made it to level 50 (or hell, 25) and they are in that situation then they aren't even reading the screen. Implying that people end up in that situation is just insulting

When I level alts, I do end up with a mismatch of gear if I don't craft them anything. Which I often don't. I can't say I have personally ever struggled doing things that way but I can't speak for others.

You get random quest rewards you quickly out level (and each zone can drop 3 sets). It's mostly green quality. And you may end up filling out missing pieces with white gear if that piece hasn't dropped yet.

ETA

It's the way a lot of solo players experience the game, especially new ones who don't have the skills to craft themselves good gear yet and may not even be bothering with crafting at all.

AlexanderDeLarge

Deserrick wrote: »

It's not disingenuous or insulting, it is a natural result of using what you get while questing. Starting from level 3 and following the story quests, you outlevel the gear you have. Completing all zone quests before moving on, you may get enough gear to have complete sets, but the pieces would likely be at different levels, and not always with the weights, traits, and enchantments that would have been preferred. Then when you move on to the next zone in the story, entirely different overland sets are dropped and rewarded, meaning that replacing your outleveled equipment will lose your set bonuses until you get enough equipment from the new zone to fulfill new set bonuses, again with this new equipment being at different levels, weights, traits, and enchantments.

I get what you're saying but I think it's crazy to balance a game around people zooming through the leveling process so much that they don't learn the gearing system. Even if that were the case, isn't the first thing you do after questing to 50 is running a dungeon or two? There's your guaranteed blue/purple gear and within a week of doing undaunted dailies you'll have enough keys to get a monster set.

You don't want to balance for top tier meta players but you also don't want to balance around people somehow managing to stumble their way to the endgame without learning anything. If that's actually happening, ZOS has other systemic problems with their game.

Also for what it's worth I logged into the game using the medium purple armor and heavy shoulder equipment I had on my Warden last played back in 2018 and let a minotaur attack me. I had a thief boon on me (doesn't help me defensively whatsoever) and no companions.

It took 44 seconds to die standing still.
I took my equipment off and it took 19 seconds of doing absolutely nothing. Rezzed and killed it in 3 ability casts. Mind you, I haven't played in seven years so I was just hitting buttons. Probably could've killed it faster if I knew what I was doing.

I've been riding around on my horse killing stuff mindlessly (in Craglorn) for about twenty minutes and I'm logging out until the announcement/patch. Not saying the game needs to be Dark Souls difficulty all the time but if I'm expected to do this for 10-15 hours every time a new chapter comes out only to kill the boss in 5-10 hits I'd rather continue to not bother. This isn't fun or engaging.

MorganaLaVey

So its not really a difficulty problem and more a gear problem ? Should ZOS rework some of the useless sets to be quest rewards and level with the player ? Maybe make them overland and normal dungeon only and make them like

2piece: -10% damage taken
3piece: -20% damage taken
4piece: -30% damage taken
5piece: -40% damage taken

Deserrick

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

It's not disingenuous or insulting, it is a natural result of using what you get while questing. Starting from level 3 and following the story quests, you outlevel the gear you have. Completing all zone quests before moving on, you may get enough gear to have complete sets, but the pieces would likely be at different levels, and not always with the weights, traits, and enchantments that would have been preferred. Then when you move on to the next zone in the story, entirely different overland sets are dropped and rewarded, meaning that replacing your outleveled equipment will lose your set bonuses until you get enough equipment from the new zone to fulfill new set bonuses, again with this new equipment being at different levels, weights, traits, and enchantments.

I get what you're saying but I think it's crazy to balance a game around people zooming through the leveling process so much that they don't learn the gearing system.

Playing through the zone quests zone by zone isn't zooming through the levelling process, it's levelling naturally which does eventually put equipment you found early in the zone some levels behind your level late in the zone. Equipping what you find while playing through the zone quests isn't not learning the gearing system, it's choosing the best gear options from the limited selection acquired naturally. Breaking from the questing to search out gear that is high level with the desired set bonuses, weights, traits, enchantments, and quality is a higher tier of using the gear system to match higher tiers of challenges. Not engaging with tiers of the power system above the tier of the expected power level for the content is still learning/using the power system.

Diablo 3 is a good example of this. Playing through the story, seeing what drops, comparing the drops and deciding if it should be equipped, and then maybe going to a shop in town if a certain slot falls very behind is how the gearing works while running a new character through the story. Doing this provides common, magic, rare, and legendary items in decreasing likelihoods. For endgame, the gearing system is using multiple ways of guaranteeing and crafting gear to fill every slot with legendary and set items that support a good build. Just like ESO, these tiers of the system have a wide gap, and using the higher tier allows for higher tier challenges while making the lower tier challenges easy.

BananaBender

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

It's not disingenuous or insulting, it is a natural result of using what you get while questing. Starting from level 3 and following the story quests, you outlevel the gear you have. Completing all zone quests before moving on, you may get enough gear to have complete sets, but the pieces would likely be at different levels, and not always with the weights, traits, and enchantments that would have been preferred. Then when you move on to the next zone in the story, entirely different overland sets are dropped and rewarded, meaning that replacing your outleveled equipment will lose your set bonuses until you get enough equipment from the new zone to fulfill new set bonuses, again with this new equipment being at different levels, weights, traits, and enchantments.

I get what you're saying but I think it's crazy to balance a game around people zooming through the leveling process so much that they don't learn the gearing system.

Playing through the zone quests zone by zone isn't zooming through the levelling process, it's levelling naturally which does eventually put equipment you found early in the zone some levels behind your level late in the zone. Equipping what you find while playing through the zone quests isn't not learning the gearing system, it's choosing the best gear options from the limited selection acquired naturally. Breaking from the questing to search out gear that is high level with the desired set bonuses, weights, traits, enchantments, and quality is a higher tier of using the gear system to match higher tiers of challenges. Not engaging with tiers of the power system above the tier of the expected power level for the content is still learning/using the power system.

Lower levelled characters already get a buff to compensate for the lack of sets and CPs, if the early game experience is too difficult for most people, ZOS could increase the buff value, instead of dumbing down the enemies. I also think it's a poor idea to balance the entire overland experience around levelling up, since that's only a small part of most players experience.

Deserrick wrote: »

Diablo 3 is a good example of this. Playing through the story, seeing what drops, comparing the drops and deciding if it should be equipped, and then maybe going to a shop in town if a certain slot falls very behind is how the gearing works while running a new character through the story. Doing this provides common, magic, rare, and legendary items in decreasing likelihoods. For endgame, the gearing system is using multiple ways of guaranteeing and crafting gear to fill every slot with legendary and set items that support a good build. Just like ESO, these tiers of the system have a wide gap, and using the higher tier allows for higher tier challenges while making the lower tier challenges easy.

But ESO's and Diablo's gear are completely different. You might prefer the way Diablo does it with individual items giving you much more power, but that's not how ESO works. One good piece of gear in ESO does almost nothing, the power comes from having a full set of gear instead of combining multiple bits and pieces. I don't think it's fair to say that the game isn't too easy when you are making the game harder on purpose by not engaging with the gearing system the way it is meant to be used.

You are free to argue that the set system is bad and the individual items approach is better, but that's just not how ESO works or has ever worked. I do think that ZOS should do better job at teaching new players how to utilize the gear system instead of relying on them to figure it out from other players.

Deserrick

BananaBender wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

It's not disingenuous or insulting, it is a natural result of using what you get while questing. Starting from level 3 and following the story quests, you outlevel the gear you have. Completing all zone quests before moving on, you may get enough gear to have complete sets, but the pieces would likely be at different levels, and not always with the weights, traits, and enchantments that would have been preferred. Then when you move on to the next zone in the story, entirely different overland sets are dropped and rewarded, meaning that replacing your outleveled equipment will lose your set bonuses until you get enough equipment from the new zone to fulfill new set bonuses, again with this new equipment being at different levels, weights, traits, and enchantments.

I get what you're saying but I think it's crazy to balance a game around people zooming through the leveling process so much that they don't learn the gearing system.

Playing through the zone quests zone by zone isn't zooming through the levelling process, it's levelling naturally which does eventually put equipment you found early in the zone some levels behind your level late in the zone. Equipping what you find while playing through the zone quests isn't not learning the gearing system, it's choosing the best gear options from the limited selection acquired naturally. Breaking from the questing to search out gear that is high level with the desired set bonuses, weights, traits, enchantments, and quality is a higher tier of using the gear system to match higher tiers of challenges. Not engaging with tiers of the power system above the tier of the expected power level for the content is still learning/using the power system.

Lower levelled characters already get a buff to compensate for the lack of sets and CPs, if the early game experience is too difficult for most people, ZOS could increase the buff value, instead of dumbing down the enemies. I also think it's a poor idea to balance the entire overland experience around levelling up, since that's only a small part of most players experience.

Deserrick wrote: »

Diablo 3 is a good example of this. Playing through the story, seeing what drops, comparing the drops and deciding if it should be equipped, and then maybe going to a shop in town if a certain slot falls very behind is how the gearing works while running a new character through the story. Doing this provides common, magic, rare, and legendary items in decreasing likelihoods. For endgame, the gearing system is using multiple ways of guaranteeing and crafting gear to fill every slot with legendary and set items that support a good build. Just like ESO, these tiers of the system have a wide gap, and using the higher tier allows for higher tier challenges while making the lower tier challenges easy.

But ESO's and Diablo's gear are completely different. You might prefer the way Diablo does it with individual items giving you much more power, but that's not how ESO works. One good piece of gear in ESO does almost nothing, the power comes from having a full set of gear instead of combining multiple bits and pieces. I don't think it's fair to say that the game isn't too easy when you are making the game harder on purpose by not engaging with the gearing system the way it is meant to be used.

You are free to argue that the set system is bad and the individual items approach is better, but that's just not how ESO works or has ever worked. I do think that ZOS should do better job at teaching new players how to utilize the gear system instead of relying on them to figure it out from other players.

That's not what I am arguing. In fact, Diablo 3 also has set items that (in most builds) provide the most significant foundation for being powerful enough for the higher difficulties.

ESO power comes from having full sets of gear, at the correct level, with the correct improvement level, correct trait, correct weight, and correct enchantment. You can get this by going out of your way to hunt down and craft said gear, but that is perhaps not the way the gear system is meant to be used when questing. It would be like using the endgame gearing system in Diablo 3 to become fully equipped with synergistic legendaries and then going through the story and finding it much easier than using the gearing system at the level expected by the story. I don't think it's fair to say the game is too easy when you are making the game easier on purpose by using the endgame gearing system instead of the level of the gearing system the story content was balanced around.

colossalvoids

Deserrick wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

It's not disingenuous or insulting, it is a natural result of using what you get while questing. Starting from level 3 and following the story quests, you outlevel the gear you have. Completing all zone quests before moving on, you may get enough gear to have complete sets, but the pieces would likely be at different levels, and not always with the weights, traits, and enchantments that would have been preferred. Then when you move on to the next zone in the story, entirely different overland sets are dropped and rewarded, meaning that replacing your outleveled equipment will lose your set bonuses until you get enough equipment from the new zone to fulfill new set bonuses, again with this new equipment being at different levels, weights, traits, and enchantments.

I get what you're saying but I think it's crazy to balance a game around people zooming through the leveling process so much that they don't learn the gearing system.

Playing through the zone quests zone by zone isn't zooming through the levelling process, it's levelling naturally which does eventually put equipment you found early in the zone some levels behind your level late in the zone. Equipping what you find while playing through the zone quests isn't not learning the gearing system, it's choosing the best gear options from the limited selection acquired naturally. Breaking from the questing to search out gear that is high level with the desired set bonuses, weights, traits, enchantments, and quality is a higher tier of using the gear system to match higher tiers of challenges. Not engaging with tiers of the power system above the tier of the expected power level for the content is still learning/using the power system.

Lower levelled characters already get a buff to compensate for the lack of sets and CPs, if the early game experience is too difficult for most people, ZOS could increase the buff value, instead of dumbing down the enemies. I also think it's a poor idea to balance the entire overland experience around levelling up, since that's only a small part of most players experience.

Deserrick wrote: »

Diablo 3 is a good example of this. Playing through the story, seeing what drops, comparing the drops and deciding if it should be equipped, and then maybe going to a shop in town if a certain slot falls very behind is how the gearing works while running a new character through the story. Doing this provides common, magic, rare, and legendary items in decreasing likelihoods. For endgame, the gearing system is using multiple ways of guaranteeing and crafting gear to fill every slot with legendary and set items that support a good build. Just like ESO, these tiers of the system have a wide gap, and using the higher tier allows for higher tier challenges while making the lower tier challenges easy.

But ESO's and Diablo's gear are completely different. You might prefer the way Diablo does it with individual items giving you much more power, but that's not how ESO works. One good piece of gear in ESO does almost nothing, the power comes from having a full set of gear instead of combining multiple bits and pieces. I don't think it's fair to say that the game isn't too easy when you are making the game harder on purpose by not engaging with the gearing system the way it is meant to be used.

You are free to argue that the set system is bad and the individual items approach is better, but that's just not how ESO works or has ever worked. I do think that ZOS should do better job at teaching new players how to utilize the gear system instead of relying on them to figure it out from other players.

I don't think it's fair to say the game is too easy when you are making the game easier on purpose by using the endgame gearing system instead of the level of the gearing system the story content was balanced around.

I don't think people are usually talking about ease of leveling in full purple/golden gear with right traits, that one would be quite obvious. Honestly as someone who still loves leveling characters from time to time and not some unimaginable pro the mismatch of gree/blue gear (chests and rewards for the worthy) -+10-15 levels around your actual level is enough to make it all trivial. No matter if you're even upgrading your weapon or going fists only as lowbie buffs are pretty insane here. But after level 50 experience personally should be different as you've had a learning journey and now you're supposed to finally make some kind of build and roll with it, not proceeding to collection mishmash of questing gear and whites laying around in the environment. You're also starting to get champion points some of which are easily making you pretty invulnerable early on like 2k extra health regen, leech and mitigation ones.

BasP

Deserrick wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

It's not disingenuous or insulting, it is a natural result of using what you get while questing. Starting from level 3 and following the story quests, you outlevel the gear you have. Completing all zone quests before moving on, you may get enough gear to have complete sets, but the pieces would likely be at different levels, and not always with the weights, traits, and enchantments that would have been preferred. Then when you move on to the next zone in the story, entirely different overland sets are dropped and rewarded, meaning that replacing your outleveled equipment will lose your set bonuses until you get enough equipment from the new zone to fulfill new set bonuses, again with this new equipment being at different levels, weights, traits, and enchantments.

I get what you're saying but I think it's crazy to balance a game around people zooming through the leveling process so much that they don't learn the gearing system.

Playing through the zone quests zone by zone isn't zooming through the levelling process, it's levelling naturally which does eventually put equipment you found early in the zone some levels behind your level late in the zone. Equipping what you find while playing through the zone quests isn't not learning the gearing system, it's choosing the best gear options from the limited selection acquired naturally. Breaking from the questing to search out gear that is high level with the desired set bonuses, weights, traits, enchantments, and quality is a higher tier of using the gear system to match higher tiers of challenges. Not engaging with tiers of the power system above the tier of the expected power level for the content is still learning/using the power system.

Lower levelled characters already get a buff to compensate for the lack of sets and CPs, if the early game experience is too difficult for most people, ZOS could increase the buff value, instead of dumbing down the enemies. I also think it's a poor idea to balance the entire overland experience around levelling up, since that's only a small part of most players experience.

Deserrick wrote: »

Diablo 3 is a good example of this. Playing through the story, seeing what drops, comparing the drops and deciding if it should be equipped, and then maybe going to a shop in town if a certain slot falls very behind is how the gearing works while running a new character through the story. Doing this provides common, magic, rare, and legendary items in decreasing likelihoods. For endgame, the gearing system is using multiple ways of guaranteeing and crafting gear to fill every slot with legendary and set items that support a good build. Just like ESO, these tiers of the system have a wide gap, and using the higher tier allows for higher tier challenges while making the lower tier challenges easy.

But ESO's and Diablo's gear are completely different. You might prefer the way Diablo does it with individual items giving you much more power, but that's not how ESO works. One good piece of gear in ESO does almost nothing, the power comes from having a full set of gear instead of combining multiple bits and pieces. I don't think it's fair to say that the game isn't too easy when you are making the game harder on purpose by not engaging with the gearing system the way it is meant to be used.

You are free to argue that the set system is bad and the individual items approach is better, but that's just not how ESO works or has ever worked. I do think that ZOS should do better job at teaching new players how to utilize the gear system instead of relying on them to figure it out from other players.

That's not what I am arguing. In fact, Diablo 3 also has set items that (in most builds) provide the most significant foundation for being powerful enough for the higher difficulties.

ESO power comes from having full sets of gear, at the correct level, with the correct improvement level, correct trait, correct weight, and correct enchantment. You can get this by going out of your way to hunt down and craft said gear, but that is perhaps not the way the gear system is meant to be used when questing. It would be like using the endgame gearing system in Diablo 3 to become fully equipped with synergistic legendaries and then going through the story and finding it much easier than using the gearing system at the level expected by the story. I don't think it's fair to say the game is too easy when you are making the game easier on purpose by using the endgame gearing system instead of the level of the gearing system the story content was balanced around.

While I agree that Overland content shouldn't be balanced around having endgame sets (unless it'd be optional), at the moment most of ESO's Overland content doesn't requires the use of any gear whatsoever. I just tried a couple of Delves (seeing as you mentioned them in a previous post) in DLC zones on a level 50 character without any armor, weapons, assigned Champion Points nor a Companion and still thought they were incredibly easy.

BananaBender

Deserrick wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

Deserrick wrote: »

It's not disingenuous or insulting, it is a natural result of using what you get while questing. Starting from level 3 and following the story quests, you outlevel the gear you have. Completing all zone quests before moving on, you may get enough gear to have complete sets, but the pieces would likely be at different levels, and not always with the weights, traits, and enchantments that would have been preferred. Then when you move on to the next zone in the story, entirely different overland sets are dropped and rewarded, meaning that replacing your outleveled equipment will lose your set bonuses until you get enough equipment from the new zone to fulfill new set bonuses, again with this new equipment being at different levels, weights, traits, and enchantments.

I get what you're saying but I think it's crazy to balance a game around people zooming through the leveling process so much that they don't learn the gearing system.

Playing through the zone quests zone by zone isn't zooming through the levelling process, it's levelling naturally which does eventually put equipment you found early in the zone some levels behind your level late in the zone. Equipping what you find while playing through the zone quests isn't not learning the gearing system, it's choosing the best gear options from the limited selection acquired naturally. Breaking from the questing to search out gear that is high level with the desired set bonuses, weights, traits, enchantments, and quality is a higher tier of using the gear system to match higher tiers of challenges. Not engaging with tiers of the power system above the tier of the expected power level for the content is still learning/using the power system.

Lower levelled characters already get a buff to compensate for the lack of sets and CPs, if the early game experience is too difficult for most people, ZOS could increase the buff value, instead of dumbing down the enemies. I also think it's a poor idea to balance the entire overland experience around levelling up, since that's only a small part of most players experience.

Deserrick wrote: »

Diablo 3 is a good example of this. Playing through the story, seeing what drops, comparing the drops and deciding if it should be equipped, and then maybe going to a shop in town if a certain slot falls very behind is how the gearing works while running a new character through the story. Doing this provides common, magic, rare, and legendary items in decreasing likelihoods. For endgame, the gearing system is using multiple ways of guaranteeing and crafting gear to fill every slot with legendary and set items that support a good build. Just like ESO, these tiers of the system have a wide gap, and using the higher tier allows for higher tier challenges while making the lower tier challenges easy.

But ESO's and Diablo's gear are completely different. You might prefer the way Diablo does it with individual items giving you much more power, but that's not how ESO works. One good piece of gear in ESO does almost nothing, the power comes from having a full set of gear instead of combining multiple bits and pieces. I don't think it's fair to say that the game isn't too easy when you are making the game harder on purpose by not engaging with the gearing system the way it is meant to be used.

You are free to argue that the set system is bad and the individual items approach is better, but that's just not how ESO works or has ever worked. I do think that ZOS should do better job at teaching new players how to utilize the gear system instead of relying on them to figure it out from other players.

That's not what I am arguing. In fact, Diablo 3 also has set items that (in most builds) provide the most significant foundation for being powerful enough for the higher difficulties.

ESO power comes from having full sets of gear, at the correct level, with the correct improvement level, correct trait, correct weight, and correct enchantment. You can get this by going out of your way to hunt down and craft said gear, but that is perhaps not the way the gear system is meant to be used when questing. It would be like using the endgame gearing system in Diablo 3 to become fully equipped with synergistic legendaries and then going through the story and finding it much easier than using the gearing system at the level expected by the story. I don't think it's fair to say the game is too easy when you are making the game easier on purpose by using the endgame gearing system instead of the level of the gearing system the story content was balanced around.

But having sets isn't an endgame mechanic. Having perfected golded out trial sets and arena weapons is, but having any 2 sets is not. I agree that for someone who starts eso for the first time, especially if they haven't looked into the game at all, things are going to be confusing and difficult, because the gearing system is not the easiest to get into. Getting gear is really easy if you just go and get it. There are really good crafted sets with very low research requirements, but of course you do need materials which are also plentiful. Overland sets can be bought for almost nothing on guild vendors. Farming for the sets is of course also an option, but it's a bit more time consuming. Transferring gear from another character is extremely easy and free due to how the bank works. Asking for help in the zone chat is also a valid option, people tend to be really happy to craft some gear, mostly for free.

I just don't think that every single overland zone and questline should be balanced around people starting their first character, who haven't looked into how the game works at all, who don't want to interact with other people, who don't want to go out of their way to make any form of equipment.
Some zones? Yes. All of them? No.

Jammy420

SilverBride wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

People should at the very least be expected to learn what exists in the game, and to use it.

Who says they aren't?

Players have different goals and not all of them require being meta geared, or spending hours watching others play to learn mechanics, etc.. Overland should not require a lot of preparation for what they want to accomplish.

And as has been mentioned before, some players have limitations and they should be able to enjoy the game, too.

You can just play the game casually and see that there are gear sets. And then using common sense you should realize that it is important to get those sets. You do not have to spend hours getting them, you can just naturally progress and gather full sets, if people are not doing that, they are actively ignoring a core mechanic of the game. And those sets are by no means " meta ", but they are strong enough to make you nigh invincible against quest bosses. There are even sets that you can acquire by, again, just naturally progressing, that cause you to do damage just by standing still and being attacked, so if people have limitations, those sets are an option.

In my honest opinion you are are doing casual gamers a disservice by saying they are actively ignoring in game mechanics and want the game to be so easy you can legitimately stand still and kill things.

Jammy420

SilverBride wrote: »

AlexanderDeLarge wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

If ESO were to create some difficult servers where everything is a challenge I would fully support that. Then the rest of us wouldn't have to worry about the ESO we love being rendered unplayable.

Would you honestly? Because honestly a lot of this thread is fearmongering about potentially splitting overland when the reality is a lot of us aren't playing the game as a result of their inaction on this subject.

I used to think that splitting the playerbase would be a bad thing, but the more this goes on the more I don't see it as an issue, because I don't think enough players would use a veteran overland or a challenging server to hurt the general population.

I played this game since beta, and I stopped after the Skyrim DLC, because the content I was waiting for since forever was so easy, I beat the final boss before he could finish his first sentence, and I can guarantee you that there are more than enough people that would enjoy an at least modicum of difficulty instead of just coughing on enemies and them dying.

spartaxoxo

Jammy420 wrote: »

You can just play the game casually and see that there are gear sets. And then using common sense you should realize that it is important to get those sets. You do not have to spend hours getting them, you can just naturally progress and gather full sets, if people are not doing that, they are actively ignoring a core mechanic of the game.

That is not true. You will naturally finish a zone before getting full sets. That's how people end up in mismatched ones. In addition, the quest rewards in a zone will be mismatched because there are three sets per zone.

A lot of people here have no concept of what it's like to be a solo player who just wants to progress through the story and explore and aren't interested in group play builds. Everyone and their mom will tell you don't have to bother with builds to do that and can just play the way you want. And the game's story is explicitly marketed as play the way you want in the story.

It's pretty obvious that the Elder Scrolls Online would be played like Skyrim by some people who will just make characters, explore, and just use whatever they find.

SilverBride

Jammy420 wrote: »

In my honest opinion you are are doing casual gamers a disservice by saying they are actively ignoring in game mechanics and want the game to be so easy you can legitimately stand still and kill things.

I never said anyone is ignoring mechanics. But I personally do not watch videos of others playing to learn them. I learn by doing. And overland should not have a lot of mechanics to learn anyway because it's not meant to be challenging content.

SilverBride

Jammy420 wrote: »

I played this game since beta, and I stopped after the Skyrim DLC, because the content I was waiting for since forever was so easy, I beat the final boss before he could finish his first sentence, and I can guarantee you that there are more than enough people that would enjoy an at least modicum of difficulty instead of just coughing on enemies and them dying.

I played beta too. I only stopped because after completing Cadwell's Silver and Gold there was NO solo content, and it was next to impossible to find groups doing the same quests and on the same steps in Craglorn, leaving me with nothing to do. I came back after One Tamriel and have played and subscribed ever since.

There are a lot of active players that would be pushed away if overland difficulty is forced on us.

Jammy420

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

You can just play the game casually and see that there are gear sets. And then using common sense you should realize that it is important to get those sets. You do not have to spend hours getting them, you can just naturally progress and gather full sets, if people are not doing that, they are actively ignoring a core mechanic of the game.

That is not true. You will naturally finish a zone before getting full sets. That's how people end up in mismatched ones. In addition, the quest rewards in a zone will be mismatched because there are three sets per zone.

A lot of people here have no concept of what it's like to be a solo player who just wants to progress through the story and explore and aren't interested in group play builds. Everyone and their mom will tell you don't have to bother with builds to do that and can just play the way you want. And the game's story is explicitly marketed as play the way you want in the story.

It's pretty obvious that the Elder Scrolls Online would be played like Skyrim by some people who will just make characters, explore, and just use whatever they find.

That is quite literally how I started the game way back during beta, and it took me a whole few hours to realize that set items were a thing. Extremely casual player btw, had no interest in guilds or what not, just wanted to quest. Back before we even had a proper EU server.

Once you pick up a set item, it is pretty obvious you need more to get the full effect. Expecting people to try to learn the mechanics at least a little should not be a controversial thing.

I do however think they could do a much better job of explaining the item sets in the tutorial stage, I will never understand why they do not.

SilverBride wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

I played this game since beta, and I stopped after the Skyrim DLC, because the content I was waiting for since forever was so easy, I beat the final boss before he could finish his first sentence, and I can guarantee you that there are more than enough people that would enjoy an at least modicum of difficulty instead of just coughing on enemies and them dying.

I played beta too. I only stopped because after completing Cadwell's Silver and Gold there was NO solo content, and it was next to impossible to find groups doing the same quests and on the same steps in Craglorn, leaving me with nothing to do. I came back after One Tamriel and have played and subscribed ever since.

There are a lot of active players that would be pushed away if overland difficulty is forced on us.

Gonna have to disagree, since there is no talk of making it anywhere NEAR the difficulty of those later levels during beta times.

SilverBride wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

In my honest opinion you are are doing casual gamers a disservice by saying they are actively ignoring in game mechanics and want the game to be so easy you can legitimately stand still and kill things.

I never said anyone is ignoring mechanics. But I personally do not watch videos of others playing to learn them. I learn by doing. And overland should not have a lot of mechanics to learn anyway because it's not meant to be challenging content.

If there is never an introduction to the game mechanics, then people will be forced to search for guides online, which is what you have quite frequently said that people should not have to do. I think you would be quite hard pressed to find a single post in here where people say it should be as difficult as vet dungeons or original craglorn.

SilverBride

Jammy420 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There are a lot of active players that would be pushed away if overland difficulty is forced on us.

Gonna have to disagree, since there is no talk of making it anywhere NEAR the difficulty of those later levels during beta times.

A small increase is probably not going to satisfy those pushing for a more difficult overland.

sans-culottes

SilverBride wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There are a lot of active players that would be pushed away if overland difficulty is forced on us.

Gonna have to disagree, since there is no talk of making it anywhere NEAR the difficulty of those later levels during beta times.

A small increase is probably not going to satisfy those pushing for a more difficult overland.

This is why many of us have suggested implementing a toggle of some sort.

SilverBride

sans-culottes wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

There are a lot of active players that would be pushed away if overland difficulty is forced on us.

Gonna have to disagree, since there is no talk of making it anywhere NEAR the difficulty of those later levels during beta times.

A small increase is probably not going to satisfy those pushing for a more difficult overland.

This is why many of us have suggested implementing a toggle of some sort.

Regardless of that I still see posts saying players just need to figure out how to gear better and learn mechanics and that the game shouldn't be built around the demographic that finds overland difficult.

spartaxoxo

Jammy420 wrote: »

That is quite literally how I started the game way back during beta, and it took me a whole few hours to realize that set items were a thing.

Nobody said they don't know sets exist. They said that you don't get a full set just questing. And you don't. The game does not explain sets. And their importance for tougher content is not revealed through questing. You're probably not going to get a set through the course of normal questing gameplay. You have to farm it or buy it. And there's no point in doing that if you're not interested in group play because the quests are designed to be doable with just quest rewards. They are designed like that that so players can play the quests however they want, including any order that they want. So they can go anywhere and explore. Just as they would do in Skyrim.

SilverBride

I just hope that they take into consideration that many of us that have been actively playing and subscribing and supporting the game for years now are happy with things as they are.

TaSheen

SilverBride wrote: »

I just hope that they take into consideration that many of us that have been actively playing and subscribing and supporting the game for years now are happy with things as they are.

Yes....

BananaBender

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Jammy420 wrote: »

That is quite literally how I started the game way back during beta, and it took me a whole few hours to realize that set items were a thing.

Nobody said they don't know sets exist. They said that you don't get a full set just questing. And you don't. The game does not explain sets. And their importance for tougher content is not revealed through questing. You're probably not going to get a set through the course of normal questing gameplay. You have to farm it or buy it. And there's no point in doing that if you're not interested in group play because the quests are designed to be doable with just quest rewards. They are designed like that that so players can play the quests however they want, including any order that they want. So they can go anywhere and explore. Just as they would do in Skyrim.

Then wouldn't it make sense to change how the quest rewards work, instead of dumbing down the experience for everyone. Why can't we pick which set we want from the quests, instead of getting a bits and pieces from multiple different ones? This way you could reasonably get a full set just from doing quests, and then balance the difficulty in overland accordingly. We already have a selection when it comes to level up rewards, so I don't see why the same couldn't be applied to quest rewards as well.

spartaxoxo

BananaBender wrote: »

Then wouldn't it make sense to change how the quest rewards work, instead of dumbing down the experience for everyone. Why can't we pick which set we want from the quests, instead of getting a bits and pieces from multiple different ones? This way you could reasonably get a full set just from doing quests, and then balance the difficulty in overland accordingly. We already have a selection when it comes to level up rewards, so I don't see why the same couldn't be applied to quest rewards as well.

I agree it would help to allow players to select the reward they want from the available rewards.

I don't agree that the game should force a change on everyone because some users feel they are playing the wrong way.

A difficulty slider or some other form of difficulty options would allow those of us who like a challenge to enjoy the game's story. It doesn't need to be forced on the people who don't. I don't know why some people are so opposed to the idea that some people just want to casually play an Elder Scrolls game like an Elder Scrolls game.

Options allow us to play the way we want to play. That's the mantra marketed towards us and that's the thing all players should get to experience (to the extent reasonably possible) IMO

BananaBender

spartaxoxo wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Then wouldn't it make sense to change how the quest rewards work, instead of dumbing down the experience for everyone. Why can't we pick which set we want from the quests, instead of getting a bits and pieces from multiple different ones? This way you could reasonably get a full set just from doing quests, and then balance the difficulty in overland accordingly. We already have a selection when it comes to level up rewards, so I don't see why the same couldn't be applied to quest rewards as well.

I agree it would help to allow players to select the reward they want from the available rewards.

I don't agree that the game should force a change on everyone because some users feel they are playing the wrong way.

A difficulty slider or some other form of difficulty options would allow those of us who like a challenge to enjoy the game's story. It doesn't need to be forced on the people who don't. I don't know why some people are so opposed to the idea that some people just want to casually play an Elder Scrolls game like an Elder Scrolls game.

Options allow us to play the way we want to play. That's the mantra marketed towards us and that's the thing all players should get to experience (to the extent reasonably possible) IMO

Because to me the slider only works on paper, but runs into issues when you think about how it would actually be utilized. If they manage to implement a well functioning slider, that would be amazing, but I really have my doubts.

The biggest question mark for me is that how would the game react to two people with different difficulty fighting the same enemy? If someone is on the hardest setting trying to kill a boss and I show up in full meta gear and with the lowest difficulty setting and one shot the boss, how is the overland any more difficult for the person who wanted difficulty? I fear that this would only lead to people pushing others away instead of trying to work together. I know for a fact that if I played on the hardest difficulty with the intetion of looking for challenge and someone just fights the boss for me, I would not find that enjoyable in the slightest.
During events nobody is going to be on difficult mode since the kill credit goes only for the top 12 dps characters, so shooting yourself in the foot wouldn't make sense.

Splitting the instances between veteran and normal would make the game feel extremely empty, especially outside the most popular cities.

Overall, on paper it sounds like a good idea, but I just don't see it working out as well as many people in this thread think it would. But who knows, maybe they pull it off somehow and I'll be pleasantly surprised.

GatheredMyst

I'm seeing something posted a few times already that's making my jaw hit the floor.

"Overland content is already too difficult for me."

... how? Just... how? I went out and did a test in my non-CP character wearing green crafted gear that was ten levels below his level. Equipment bonus was one star.

Just standing there and letting a mob smack me in one of the expansion zones, it took it 40 seconds to kill me. That's a four and a zero, no typo. This was a DPS mob too, one that does flashy assassination abilities and everything.

I needed to cast three whole abilities to kill the monster. A wall of elements, daedric curse, and then a lightning finisher. Total time to kill the mob? 8 seconds. That time gets further cut if I add even a single friend to the mix.

You can legit get up from your keyboard, get a drink, pet the cat, sit back down, and you'll have enough time to still kill the monster before it does you. You can not touch the keyboard for *thirty whole seconds* in an *expansion zone* and *not die*. In the base game zones, it's even *easier*.

And yet that's "too difficult"?

Even if they doubled the mob damage as it is right now, that's twenty seconds to kill me, and eight seconds to kill the mob. You're only having to pay half attention and you can still win, and that's when the mob damage is *doubled*.

Fine. Make the difficulty upgrade an option, but can we please stop pretending this is "hard"?

spartaxoxo

BananaBender wrote: »

l
The biggest question mark for me is that how would the game react to two people with different difficulty fighting the same enemy? If someone is on the hardest setting trying to kill a boss and I show up in full meta gear and with the lowest difficulty setting and one shot the boss, how is the overland any more difficult for the person who wanted difficulty?

How is that any different from a stronger player rolling up on someone now? Yet, people still find enjoyment in overland despite vet players existing. That's a normal part of every MMO, difficulty slider or not. Many of the story bosses are in solo instances. The bosses that aren't respawn. They already make the instances populated enough you can get help but not so crowded that people are running all over each other.

Also, "I would sometimes miss out on an engaging fight" is not a good reason to ruin the game at all times for a large chunk of the playerbase IMO. Some players would no longer be capable of playing at all. And many others would quit the game because they don't enjoy it anymore.

Difficulty options, like all solutions, come with its pros and cons. But there are far less cons with them than forced difficulty or doing nothing at all.

SilverBride

GatheredMyst wrote: »

...can we please stop pretending this is "hard"?

No one is pretending anything. Overland is hard for some players. Some may not understand how it is or why it is, but the fact is that overland is hard for some players.

BananaBender

spartaxoxo wrote: »

How is that any different from a stronger player rolling up on someone now?

Because now people aren't choosing that they want challenge. Your challenge isn't being ruined by others, because there is no challenge to begin with.
If they implement a system where people and choose to make the game harder, and it doesn't make the game harder, it's a failed system. You can already simulate exactly how this would play out by intentionally reducing your damage output. There will be an increased challenge until another player shows up, and then you are getting carried the rest of the fight. The fight isn't more difficult, you are just being less impactful on determining the outcome.

A system which relies on you getting lucky enough to be on your own to work is a horrible system for an MMORPG.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Yet, people still find enjoyment in overland despite vet players existing.

People who don't want a challenge are enjoying it, people who do are not. This has been made very clear many times on this thread.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Difficulty options, like all solutions, come with its pros and cons. But there are far less cons with them than forced difficulty or doing nothing at all.

I just don't want them to implement a system which just doesn't work in practise. Again, if they somehow manage to pull it off I would be very happy with a difficulty slider, but to me it just feels like a system, which works well until you factor in other people.

sans-culottes

BananaBender wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

How is that any different from a stronger player rolling up on someone now?

Because now people aren't choosing that they want challenge. Your challenge isn't being ruined by others, because there is no challenge to begin with.
If they implement a system where people and choose to make the game harder, and it doesn't make the game harder, it's a failed system. You can already simulate exactly how this would play out by intentionally reducing your damage output. There will be an increased challenge until another player shows up, and then you are getting carried the rest of the fight. The fight isn't more difficult, you are just being less impactful on determining the outcome.

A system which relies on you getting lucky enough to be on your own to work is a horrible system for an MMORPG.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Yet, people still find enjoyment in overland despite vet players existing.

People who don't want a challenge are enjoying it, people who do are not. This has been made very clear many times on this thread.

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Difficulty options, like all solutions, come with its pros and cons. But there are far less cons with them than forced difficulty or doing nothing at all.

I just don't want them to implement a system which just doesn't work in practise. Again, if they somehow manage to pull it off I would be very happy with a difficulty slider, but to me it just feels like a system, which works well until you factor in other people.

@BananaBender, I appreciate the thoughtfulness of your concerns, but I think some of the fears around optional difficulty scaling are a bit overstated.

For example, the issue of differing difficulty settings already exists in other MMOs without causing major problems. Lord of the Rings Online includes per-player difficulty options (like “Landscape Difficulty”) that players can opt into or ignore. The game doesn’t break when players with different toggles fight the same enemy. It scales accordingly and unobtrusively.

ESO already manages a version of this. In PvP, the “Battle Spirit” effect applies universally, but players show up with wildly different builds, skill levels, and CP investments. Some get one-shotted. Others dominate small groups. The system doesn’t collapse—it reflects the variability of performance in a shared space.

Most overland bosses in ESO are either instanced story content or world mobs that respawn quickly. If someone jumps into your fight, then that’s not functionally different from what already happens when a CP3600 player engages your target. Optional difficulty wouldn’t make that any worse. In fact, it would finally offer meaningful solo challenge for those who want it.

Your point that “a system which relies on being alone is bad design” might apply in some contexts, but ESO already has content that’s designed around being alone—solo arenas, housing, delves, etc. If the difficulty toggle respects the same logic (solo = consistent experience, shared = chaos by design), then it holds together just fine.

In short, difficulty scaling isn’t a perfect solution, but it’s one that already works—both in other MMOs and in ESO’s own systems. That makes it far more feasible than many of these edge-case scenarios suggest.