the shattering of hope and faith in the "dk update"

Wing · October 2021

the fact that the claimed this update would contain: " some long overdue Dragonknight love " compared to what we got is heartbreaking for me.

because if it did not then the hope for change or updates would still be there, now it will just be bad without the hope of an update.

hybrid whip, not stam
no changes to wings
no changes to inhale (man this skill looks so cool)
stonefist still whatever it is
shield too expensive (most dk skills to expensive tbh)
new ash cloud is a mess

man i want a class change so bad (dont even start with "oh just make a new character" i have mained this character since beta its far and away more then just its class, nobody who wants class change wants it because they cannot roll a new character)

Bodycounter · October 2021

In my opinion most of the changes are actually pretty good. The only thing im very upset about is the "stam whip" we will get. I have said for years that when Zenimax decides to change the Lava Whip then they have to give it the "Soul Trap treatment" where the cost, scaling and damage is based on your highest offensive stats. The Dragonknight could be an absolute blast of a class when some abilities would get the "Soul Trap treatment" actually.

The changes to the passives are great but long overdue. I mentioned those passives years ago and they finally did it. One of the things im still wishing for would be a light armor version of Elf Bane because there is no reason at this point this set is still heavy armor after they have changed the armor skill lines. It's one of the few unique sets for a class and its only drawback is the armor type at this point.

KhajiitLivesMatter · October 2021

Wing wrote: »

the fact that the claimed this update would contain: " some long overdue Dragonknight love " compared to what we got is heartbreaking for me.

because if it did not then the hope for change or updates would still be there, now it will just be bad without the hope of an update.

hybrid whip, not stam
no changes to wings
no changes to inhale (man this skill looks so cool)
stonefist still whatever it is
shield too expensive (most dk skills to expensive tbh)
new ash cloud is a mess

man i want a class change so bad (dont even start with "oh just make a new character" i have mained this character since beta its far and away more then just its class, nobody who wants class change wants it because they cannot roll a new character)

1. speaking of pvp
dunno what ur talking about for me dk is the class with the best and easiest sustain good survivability and great dots
all in all dk is not op but doesnt rly need huge buffs

and its not only me but even the dk main players i know are fine with the state of it

the new changes are already a huge buff
sustain will be op
hybrid whip is easier to sustain as stam whip - if u use something like total konstansy u dont need ANY other source of sustain atall

why u want ANY more buffs i rly cant understand ATALL

btw wings are op - if u disagree show me a comparable skill that gives u more than 50% dr

Veg · October 2021

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

the fact that the claimed this update would contain: " some long overdue Dragonknight love " compared to what we got is heartbreaking for me.

because if it did not then the hope for change or updates would still be there, now it will just be bad without the hope of an update.

hybrid whip, not stam
no changes to wings
no changes to inhale (man this skill looks so cool)
stonefist still whatever it is
shield too expensive (most dk skills to expensive tbh)
new ash cloud is a mess

man i want a class change so bad (dont even start with "oh just make a new character" i have mained this character since beta its far and away more then just its class, nobody who wants class change wants it because they cannot roll a new character)

1. speaking of pvp
dunno what ur talking about for me dk is the class with the best and easiest sustain good survivability and great dots
all in all dk is not op but doesnt rly need huge buffs

and its not only me but even the dk main players i know are fine with the state of it

the new changes are already a huge buff
sustain will be op
hybrid whip is easier to sustain as stam whip - if u use something like total konstansy u dont need ANY other source of sustain atall

why u want ANY more buffs i rly cant understand ATALL

btw wings are op - if u disagree show me a comparable skill that gives u more than 50% dr

blocking gives more than 50% lul. But really mag DK has no reason to run wings in pvp. you're better off blocking, saves resources and reduces the damage by about 25% more than wings.

As for Deep Breath... I'm also sad nothing changed.

KhajiitLivesMatter · October 2021

Veg wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

the fact that the claimed this update would contain: " some long overdue Dragonknight love " compared to what we got is heartbreaking for me.

because if it did not then the hope for change or updates would still be there, now it will just be bad without the hope of an update.

hybrid whip, not stam
no changes to wings
no changes to inhale (man this skill looks so cool)
stonefist still whatever it is
shield too expensive (most dk skills to expensive tbh)
new ash cloud is a mess

man i want a class change so bad (dont even start with "oh just make a new character" i have mained this character since beta its far and away more then just its class, nobody who wants class change wants it because they cannot roll a new character)

1. speaking of pvp
dunno what ur talking about for me dk is the class with the best and easiest sustain good survivability and great dots
all in all dk is not op but doesnt rly need huge buffs

and its not only me but even the dk main players i know are fine with the state of it

the new changes are already a huge buff
sustain will be op
hybrid whip is easier to sustain as stam whip - if u use something like total konstansy u dont need ANY other source of sustain atall

why u want ANY more buffs i rly cant understand ATALL

btw wings are op - if u disagree show me a comparable skill that gives u more than 50% dr

blocking gives more than 50% lul. But really mag DK has no reason to run wings in pvp. you're better off blocking, saves resources and reduces the damage by about 25% more than wings.

As for Deep Breath... I'm also sad nothing changed.

i said something comparable to wings lul block isnt even a skill - and if u want u could combine these 2

Vizirith · October 2021

The change to ash cloud is nice when paired with mobile enemies, considering the particularly low 5m radius. Don't really think it needed a buff and this was a very nice change.

Wings is still okay, not as good as it was but still pretty useful, if anything would need a little minor buff. Like maybe have the protective plate morph (2 secs snare/root immunity) give like 3 secs of minor expedition (still 15% more expensive than RAT and 20% less speed boost). And maybe dragon fire scale morph (fire dmg taken by projectile using enemy) hit the 2 nearest enemies instead of the attacker specifically. Would be a negligable buff for pvp but help a bit in pve with aoe damage.

Inhale and its morphs should have the initial damage done be fire not magic (why would it even be in the first place?). Lower the timer for the 2nd explosion from 2.5 secs to like 1.5 secs. And maybe make the final explosion scale up like 10% more dmg for each enemy hit. Useful for pve, slight buff but not game changing for pvp.

Stone Giant should have its cast time of .6 secs removed and maybe increase the stagger damage a bit. Stacking 3 times for a whopping total of 195 more damage taken is decent in pve tanking with a whole group's worth of dots and aoe's, but is basically useless for an individual in pve or pvp. Maybe keep the debuff on the enemy the same but have it also give a self buff increasing dmg done by an additional 65 that can stack up to 3 times. So would be a barely noticeable effect for pve tanking (very slight buff to tank dmg that shouldn't throw off class tank balance) but would now allow a solo/dps stamdk to be dealing up to 380 more damage done at full stacks. Obviously the self buff for damage done should be tweaked to where it is still balanced.

KhajiitLivesMatter · October 2021

Vizirith wrote: »

The change to ash cloud is nice when paired with mobile enemies, considering the particularly low 5m radius. Don't really think it needed a buff and this was a very nice change.

Wings is still okay, not as good as it was but still pretty useful, if anything would need a little minor buff. Like maybe have the protective plate morph (2 secs snare/root immunity) give like 3 secs of minor expedition (still 15% more expensive than RAT and 20% less speed boost). And maybe dragon fire scale morph (fire dmg taken by projectile using enemy) hit the 2 nearest enemies instead of the attacker specifically. Would be a negligable buff for pvp but help a bit in pve with aoe damage.

Inhale and its morphs should have the initial damage done be fire not magic (why would it even be in the first place?). Lower the timer for the 2nd explosion from 2.5 secs to like 1.5 secs. And maybe make the final explosion scale up like 10% more dmg for each enemy hit. Useful for pve, slight buff but not game changing for pvp.

Stone Giant should have its cast time of .6 secs removed and maybe increase the stagger damage a bit. Stacking 3 times for a whopping total of 195 more damage taken is decent in pve tanking with a whole group's worth of dots and aoe's, but is basically useless for an individual in pve or pvp. Maybe keep the debuff on the enemy the same but have it also give a self buff increasing dmg done by an additional 65 that can stack up to 3 times. So would be a barely noticeable effect for pve tanking (very slight buff to tank dmg that shouldn't throw off class tank balance) but would now allow a solo/dps stamdk to be dealing up to 380 more damage done at full stacks. Obviously the self buff for damage done should be tweaked to where it is still balanced.

actually wouldnt changes inhales timer maybe even increase it .5 seconds cause the skills is comparable to blasbones / subassault - what i would change is to remove 1. hit and add his dmg on the 2. hit and remove the requirment for a person to be inrange

Veg · October 2021

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Veg wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

the fact that the claimed this update would contain: " some long overdue Dragonknight love " compared to what we got is heartbreaking for me.

because if it did not then the hope for change or updates would still be there, now it will just be bad without the hope of an update.

hybrid whip, not stam
no changes to wings
no changes to inhale (man this skill looks so cool)
stonefist still whatever it is
shield too expensive (most dk skills to expensive tbh)
new ash cloud is a mess

man i want a class change so bad (dont even start with "oh just make a new character" i have mained this character since beta its far and away more then just its class, nobody who wants class change wants it because they cannot roll a new character)

1. speaking of pvp
dunno what ur talking about for me dk is the class with the best and easiest sustain good survivability and great dots
all in all dk is not op but doesnt rly need huge buffs

and its not only me but even the dk main players i know are fine with the state of it

the new changes are already a huge buff
sustain will be op
hybrid whip is easier to sustain as stam whip - if u use something like total konstansy u dont need ANY other source of sustain atall

why u want ANY more buffs i rly cant understand ATALL

btw wings are op - if u disagree show me a comparable skill that gives u more than 50% dr

blocking gives more than 50% lul. But really mag DK has no reason to run wings in pvp. you're better off blocking, saves resources and reduces the damage by about 25% more than wings.

As for Deep Breath... I'm also sad nothing changed.

i said something comparable to wings lul block isnt even a skill - and if u want u could combine these 2

The fact that blocking negates significantly more damage than wings makes the skill useless. You gain nothing significant from taking the time and resources to cast wings. You don't get any significant damage reduction by combining it with blocking and any projectiles that stun still need to be blocked. The magic cost and global cooldown also negate any benefit in damage from the fireballs as they do less damage than whip and flames of oblivion.

Vizirith wrote: »

Inhale and its morphs should have the initial damage done be fire not magic (why would it even be in the first place?). Lower the timer for the 2nd explosion from 2.5 secs to like 1.5 secs. And maybe make the final explosion scale up like 10% more dmg for each enemy hit. Useful for pve, slight buff but not game changing for pvp.

If they just made the secondary explosion activate regardless of whether or not the initial cast hit anyone then the skill would be useful. 4k magic is still way too much for that skill but it would at least be useful in pvp.

Wellsley · October 2021

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

sustain will be op
hybrid whip is easier to sustain as stam whip - if u use something like total konstansy u dont need ANY other source of sustain atall

With hybrid whip :

Sustain for play with venomous claw, noxious breath, executioner, forward momentum, reverberating bash and resolving vigor is possible.
A minimum of regen, the amount of stam and heavy attacks is enough.

Sustain for play with flame lash, cauterize, volatile armor, choking talons and or fossilize, green dragon blood, fragmented shield, elusive mist or race against time is very difficult.
Not enough magicka, stam weapons (heavy attack), too many useful skills that cost magic and sacrifices to resolve this.

ajkb78 · October 2021

Vizirith wrote: »

The change to ash cloud is nice when paired with mobile enemies, considering the particularly low 5m radius. Don't really think it needed a buff and this was a very nice change.

Wings is still okay, not as good as it was but still pretty useful, if anything would need a little minor buff. Like maybe have the protective plate morph (2 secs snare/root immunity) give like 3 secs of minor expedition (still 15% more expensive than RAT and 20% less speed boost). And maybe dragon fire scale morph (fire dmg taken by projectile using enemy) hit the 2 nearest enemies instead of the attacker specifically. Would be a negligable buff for pvp but help a bit in pve with aoe damage.

Inhale and its morphs should have the initial damage done be fire not magic (why would it even be in the first place?).

Why would it make sense to have the first hit be flame? You're breathing in air, then you breathe the flame out on the second hit. The first hit of damage is done by the in breath, so no fire yet, so it has to be magic damage. (Just be grateful it isn't physical like other air related damage, eg hurricane, relequen winds...) I think DKs can live with it, it's just about the only source of non flame damage whereas every other class has its mix of elemental and magic damage types.

kojou · October 2021

I wouldn't mind seeing some love to wings and deep breath. I like both of the skills aesthetically, but there is generally very limited cases to actually use them.

Even on my DK Tank when I am expecting a hard hitting ranged attack blocking is fine, there is nothing that needs me to spend a skill slot on wings. When it was a reflect I could use it to great affect on my Magicka DK in Maelstrom Arena, but those days are long gone.

Deep breath is too weak for DPS and the uses for an AoE interrupt are few and far between for a tank. I would like to see it "fixed" to have one morph be a true AoE burst skill and the other to be a more useful tanking skill maybe it could apply a useful AoE debuff?

Sustain-wise I am very happy with the changes, and in general I think they fixed the most glaring issues with DK. I mean, all classes have skills that nobody uses, so we can't expect DKs to have a full array of useful skills or they would be deemed OP and get a huge nerf.

PS. I don't know why anyone is complaining about Ash Cloud... it is borderline OP in its current state.

Veg · October 2021

ajkb78 wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

The change to ash cloud is nice when paired with mobile enemies, considering the particularly low 5m radius. Don't really think it needed a buff and this was a very nice change.

Wings is still okay, not as good as it was but still pretty useful, if anything would need a little minor buff. Like maybe have the protective plate morph (2 secs snare/root immunity) give like 3 secs of minor expedition (still 15% more expensive than RAT and 20% less speed boost). And maybe dragon fire scale morph (fire dmg taken by projectile using enemy) hit the 2 nearest enemies instead of the attacker specifically. Would be a negligable buff for pvp but help a bit in pve with aoe damage.

Inhale and its morphs should have the initial damage done be fire not magic (why would it even be in the first place?).

Why would it make sense to have the first hit be flame? You're breathing in air, then you breathe the flame out on the second hit. The first hit of damage is done by the in breath, so no fire yet, so it has to be magic damage. (Just be grateful it isn't physical like other air related damage, eg hurricane, relequen winds...) I think DKs can live with it, it's just about the only source of non flame damage whereas every other class has its mix of elemental and magic damage types.

Just to add to your point, the initial hit does VERY low damage. Any modifiers you get from the damage being fire damage would not result in any significant increase in damage.

The secondary hit being independent of the initial cast (like proxy det), would actually make the skill viable.

KhajiitLivesMatter · October 2021

Veg wrote:

The fact that blocking negates significantly more damage than wings makes the skill useless. You gain nothing significant from taking the time and resources to cast wings. You don't get any significant damage reduction by combining it with blocking and any projectiles that stun still need to be blocked. The magic cost and global cooldown also negate any benefit in damage from the fireballs as they do less damage than whip and flames of oblivion.

thats no real argument u can say that to every defensive skill : Spirit Guardian 10% dr is a bad skill cause blocking is 50
every 6k armor buff (10%dr) is bad cause block is 50
major protection is useless cause block is 50% instead of 10%

this argument is worthless cause u are comparing 2 COMPLETLY diffrent things! and the 50% dr isnt the only thing this skill offers the one morph also applies 2sec slow immunity which makes it perfect for kiting e.g. i use it with a bow dodge role + flappers = meeles out of range cause of speed + cant be slowed + range 50% less dmg

Elo106 · October 2021

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

1. speaking of pvp
dunno what ur talking about for me dk is the class with the best and easiest sustain good survivability and great dots
all in all dk is not op but doesnt rly need huge buffs

and its not only me but even the dk main players i know are fine with the state of it

the new changes are already a huge buff
sustain will be op
hybrid whip is easier to sustain as stam whip - if u use something like total konstansy u dont need ANY other source of sustain atall

why u want ANY more buffs i rly cant understand ATALL

btw wings are op - if u disagree show me a comparable skill that gives u more than 50% dr

I wouldnt call his argument worthless if yours is "for me dk is the best and easiest."
There are a lot of polls on this very forums that showed DK were worst or second to worst in sustain and threat in cyrodiil. Comparisons were made between class skills clearly showing DK needed buffs to break even.

The new changes are nice, op just made the point that they improved upon stuff we were already using instead of the bad skills barely anyone uses.

Veg · October 2021

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Veg wrote:

The fact that blocking negates significantly more damage than wings makes the skill useless. You gain nothing significant from taking the time and resources to cast wings. You don't get any significant damage reduction by combining it with blocking and any projectiles that stun still need to be blocked. The magic cost and global cooldown also negate any benefit in damage from the fireballs as they do less damage than whip and flames of oblivion.

thats no real argument u can say that to every defensive skill : Spirit Guardian 10% dr is a bad skill cause blocking is 50
every 6k armor buff (10%dr) is bad cause block is 50
major protection is useless cause block is 50% instead of 10%

this argument is worthless cause u are comparing 2 COMPLETLY diffrent things! and the 50% dr isnt the only thing this skill offers the one morph also applies 2sec slow immunity which makes it perfect for kiting e.g. i use it with a bow dodge role + flappers = meeles out of range cause of speed + cant be slowed + range 50% less dmg

Wings still doesn't accomplish anything significant though. 3k magic for 2 seconds of snare immunity isn't significant. The flat damage reduction still requires you to either dodge or block. Other skills that give flat% damage reductions will reduce all incoming damage. This is useful. Wings is specifically targeting ranged attacks but doesn't do anything that lets you change how you react to the attack. By only reducing your damage taken from ranged attacks, you are still vulnerable to burst damage and stuns. Therefor you must continue to negate your incoming damage as if you never used wings.

If you could reflect the highest damaging ranged attack in a 3-6 second window then you could use that for your own burst damage combo or as an opportunity to briefly disengage from combat. That is something useful.

Vevvev · October 2021

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Veg wrote:

The fact that blocking negates significantly more damage than wings makes the skill useless. You gain nothing significant from taking the time and resources to cast wings. You don't get any significant damage reduction by combining it with blocking and any projectiles that stun still need to be blocked. The magic cost and global cooldown also negate any benefit in damage from the fireballs as they do less damage than whip and flames of oblivion.

thats no real argument u can say that to every defensive skill : Spirit Guardian 10% dr is a bad skill cause blocking is 50
every 6k armor buff (10%dr) is bad cause block is 50
major protection is useless cause block is 50% instead of 10%

this argument is worthless cause u are comparing 2 COMPLETLY diffrent things! and the 50% dr isnt the only thing this skill offers the one morph also applies 2sec slow immunity which makes it perfect for kiting e.g. i use it with a bow dodge role + flappers = meeles out of range cause of speed + cant be slowed + range 50% less dmg

Think what he means is for what it costs in time and magicka it's not worth it. Block, Major Resolve skills, Spirit Guardian, Major Protection, etc all have good cost for what they give you.

Best skills to compare Dragon Fire Scale to are probably Mistform and Defensive Posture.

Protective Scale costs 4050 magicka
Mistform costs 1620 magicka a second for a total cost of 9,720 magicka over 6 seconds.
Defensive Posture costs 4320 stamina

They're pretty similar, but ignoring Mistform and looking at Defensive Posture vs Protective Scale the stamina ability does a better job of protecting the person as it defends against ranged and melee attacks, and unlike Protective Scale can punish someone by throwing their projectiles back at them. Albeit at an expensive cost if you plan to throw multiple projectiles back. Mistform for it's cost applies snare and stun immunity, 25% more damage reduction that mitigates more than just projectile damage, and maybe even some speed or healing depending on the morph.

For it's high cost Protective Scale lags behind these two abilities, and it's made more evident when you begin covering the different morphs.

KhajiitLivesMatter · October 2021

Elo106 wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

1. speaking of pvp
dunno what ur talking about for me dk is the class with the best and easiest sustain good survivability and great dots
all in all dk is not op but doesnt rly need huge buffs

and its not only me but even the dk main players i know are fine with the state of it

the new changes are already a huge buff
sustain will be op
hybrid whip is easier to sustain as stam whip - if u use something like total konstansy u dont need ANY other source of sustain atall

why u want ANY more buffs i rly cant understand ATALL

btw wings are op - if u disagree show me a comparable skill that gives u more than 50% dr

I wouldnt call his argument worthless if yours is "for me dk is the best and easiest."
There are a lot of polls on this very forums that showed DK were worst or second to worst in sustain and threat in cyrodiil. Comparisons were made between class skills clearly showing DK needed buffs to break even.

The new changes are nice, op just made the point that they improved upon stuff we were already using instead of the bad skills barely anyone uses.

i never said dk is the best and easiest i said "for me dk is the class with the best and easiest SUSTAIN"
ok i m woodelf on my dk but regardles of pve or pvp (i played both) i always used max stat food + dmg mundus(+ no reg glyphs) and i NEVER had any problem with sustain - to test the stuff i killed a 6m dummi without bubble support and had no problem at all cause dk skills are very cheap and throw the ult u have very muc reg

and saying its the best for me isnt an argument at all just my opinion so dont compare that lol and before u ask yea i also play other classes (stam / mag blade) and both have a significantly worse sustain than my 2 dks

sry but i dont trust polls most of the players eso has are casuals and casuals dont have so much clue about vet pve / good pvp and even if the have a clue many are just hurt cause there class got nerfed which i can understand but isnt objective

i usally use data how good a class is throw my friends who play the class (cause i m kinda endgame player my friends are to) so if all pvp players i know tell me dk is fine and i expiereience the same than in 99%+ that was correct so far

show me the comperisons didnt see them yet

every class has some useless skills thats not special to dk even though thats sad in generall i dont go out there and make a thread about Malevolent Offering cause its trash and its my main class

KhajiitLivesMatter · October 2021

Vevvev wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Veg wrote:

The fact that blocking negates significantly more damage than wings makes the skill useless. You gain nothing significant from taking the time and resources to cast wings. You don't get any significant damage reduction by combining it with blocking and any projectiles that stun still need to be blocked. The magic cost and global cooldown also negate any benefit in damage from the fireballs as they do less damage than whip and flames of oblivion.

thats no real argument u can say that to every defensive skill : Spirit Guardian 10% dr is a bad skill cause blocking is 50
every 6k armor buff (10%dr) is bad cause block is 50
major protection is useless cause block is 50% instead of 10%

this argument is worthless cause u are comparing 2 COMPLETLY diffrent things! and the 50% dr isnt the only thing this skill offers the one morph also applies 2sec slow immunity which makes it perfect for kiting e.g. i use it with a bow dodge role + flappers = meeles out of range cause of speed + cant be slowed + range 50% less dmg

Think what he means is for what it costs in time and magicka it's not worth it. Block, Major Resolve skills, Spirit Guardian, Major Protection, etc all have good cost for what they give you.

Best skills to compare Dragon Fire Scale to are probably Mistform and Defensive Posture.

Protective Scale costs 4050 magicka
Mistform costs 1620 magicka a second for a total cost of 9,720 magicka over 6 seconds.
Defensive Posture costs 4320 stamina

They're pretty similar, but ignoring Mistform and looking at Defensive Posture vs Protective Scale the stamina ability does a better job of protecting the person as it defends against ranged and melee attacks, and unlike Protective Scale can punish someone by throwing their projectiles back at them. Albeit at an expensive cost if you plan to throw multiple projectiles back. Mistform for it's cost applies snare and stun immunity, 25% more damage reduction that mitigates more than just projectile damage, and maybe even some speed or healing depending on the morph.

For it's high cost Protective Scale lags behind these two abilities, and it's made more evident when you begin covering the different morphs.

ur right with defensive posture - on paper it looks better but tbh i didnt see it being used ever - i didnt see to much flappers either but more than this skill defnetly

for mistform you didnt mention that u can use abilitys while flappers are active which u cant while mistform is running which for me is the reason i dont use mistform - also u cant be healed atall while mistform is running
75% dr for range and meele is obviously better but above i already wrote an example how i use flappers effectivly

Vevvev · October 2021

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Vevvev wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Veg wrote:

The fact that blocking negates significantly more damage than wings makes the skill useless. You gain nothing significant from taking the time and resources to cast wings. You don't get any significant damage reduction by combining it with blocking and any projectiles that stun still need to be blocked. The magic cost and global cooldown also negate any benefit in damage from the fireballs as they do less damage than whip and flames of oblivion.

thats no real argument u can say that to every defensive skill : Spirit Guardian 10% dr is a bad skill cause blocking is 50
every 6k armor buff (10%dr) is bad cause block is 50
major protection is useless cause block is 50% instead of 10%

this argument is worthless cause u are comparing 2 COMPLETLY diffrent things! and the 50% dr isnt the only thing this skill offers the one morph also applies 2sec slow immunity which makes it perfect for kiting e.g. i use it with a bow dodge role + flappers = meeles out of range cause of speed + cant be slowed + range 50% less dmg

Think what he means is for what it costs in time and magicka it's not worth it. Block, Major Resolve skills, Spirit Guardian, Major Protection, etc all have good cost for what they give you.

Best skills to compare Dragon Fire Scale to are probably Mistform and Defensive Posture.

Protective Scale costs 4050 magicka
Mistform costs 1620 magicka a second for a total cost of 9,720 magicka over 6 seconds.
Defensive Posture costs 4320 stamina

They're pretty similar, but ignoring Mistform and looking at Defensive Posture vs Protective Scale the stamina ability does a better job of protecting the person as it defends against ranged and melee attacks, and unlike Protective Scale can punish someone by throwing their projectiles back at them. Albeit at an expensive cost if you plan to throw multiple projectiles back. Mistform for it's cost applies snare and stun immunity, 25% more damage reduction that mitigates more than just projectile damage, and maybe even some speed or healing depending on the morph.

For it's high cost Protective Scale lags behind these two abilities, and it's made more evident when you begin covering the different morphs.

ur right with defensive posture - on paper it looks better but tbh i didnt see it being used ever - i didnt see to much flappers either but more than this skill defnetly

for mistform you didnt mention that u can use abilitys while flappers are active which u cant while mistform is running which for me is the reason i dont use mistform - also u cant be healed atall while mistform is running
75% dr for range and meele is obviously better but above i already wrote an example how i use flappers effectivly

Fair, but you can be healed in Mistform if you go Blood Mist. It's more of a trolling thing though.

KhajiitLivesMatter · October 2021

Veg wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Veg wrote:

The fact that blocking negates significantly more damage than wings makes the skill useless. You gain nothing significant from taking the time and resources to cast wings. You don't get any significant damage reduction by combining it with blocking and any projectiles that stun still need to be blocked. The magic cost and global cooldown also negate any benefit in damage from the fireballs as they do less damage than whip and flames of oblivion.

thats no real argument u can say that to every defensive skill : Spirit Guardian 10% dr is a bad skill cause blocking is 50
every 6k armor buff (10%dr) is bad cause block is 50
major protection is useless cause block is 50% instead of 10%

this argument is worthless cause u are comparing 2 COMPLETLY diffrent things! and the 50% dr isnt the only thing this skill offers the one morph also applies 2sec slow immunity which makes it perfect for kiting e.g. i use it with a bow dodge role + flappers = meeles out of range cause of speed + cant be slowed + range 50% less dmg

Wings still doesn't accomplish anything significant though. 3k magic for 2 seconds of snare immunity isn't significant. The flat damage reduction still requires you to either dodge or block. Other skills that give flat% damage reductions will reduce all incoming damage. This is useful. Wings is specifically targeting ranged attacks but doesn't do anything that lets you change how you react to the attack. By only reducing your damage taken from ranged attacks, you are still vulnerable to burst damage and stuns. Therefor you must continue to negate your incoming damage as if you never used wings.

If you could reflect the highest damaging ranged attack in a 3-6 second window then you could use that for your own burst damage combo or as an opportunity to briefly disengage from combat. That is something useful.

i mean if u stay in meele range while flappers are active they are useless - so if u use the u need to get some distance doesnt have to be much but atleast a bit - like use fossalize use flappers go 2m away -> enemie can only range atack - u have time to heal / prepeare burst while receiving very little dmg

" you are still vulnerable to burst damage and stuns. Therefor you must continue to negate your incoming damage as if you never used wings"

that can be said to every defensive abillity like spiked armor for example
and even though u still get dmg - like u always do - its signitficantly less so u need to spend way less time to heal and can use way more time to atack

VaranisArano · October 2021

When the Combat Preview came out, I posted this reaction.

Yeah, we didn't get a real Stam whip.

Wing · October 2021

VaranisArano wrote: »

When the Combat Preview came out, I posted this reaction.

Yeah, we didn't get a real Stam whip.

and they pretty much said "this is what your getting, stop asking"

Vevvev · October 2021

Wing wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

When the Combat Preview came out, I posted this reaction.

Yeah, we didn't get a real Stam whip.

and they pretty much said "this is what your getting, stop asking"

Yeeeeeep

Give them what they want but not really put in the extra effort to really give them what they want.

AinSoph · October 2021

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

the fact that the claimed this update would contain: " some long overdue Dragonknight love " compared to what we got is heartbreaking for me.

because if it did not then the hope for change or updates would still be there, now it will just be bad without the hope of an update.

hybrid whip, not stam
no changes to wings
no changes to inhale (man this skill looks so cool)
stonefist still whatever it is
shield too expensive (most dk skills to expensive tbh)
new ash cloud is a mess

man i want a class change so bad (dont even start with "oh just make a new character" i have mained this character since beta its far and away more then just its class, nobody who wants class change wants it because they cannot roll a new character)

1. speaking of pvp
dunno what ur talking about for me dk is the class with the best and easiest sustain good survivability and great dots
all in all dk is not op but doesnt rly need huge buffs

and its not only me but even the dk main players i know are fine with the state of it

the new changes are already a huge buff
sustain will be op
hybrid whip is easier to sustain as stam whip - if u use something like total konstansy u dont need ANY other source of sustain atall

why u want ANY more buffs i rly cant understand ATALL

btw wings are op - if u disagree show me a comparable skill that gives u more than 50% dr

Why need 50% projectile only DR when you can completely negate projectiles entirely with Warden's Shimmering Shield :,)

AinSoph · October 2021

Veg wrote: »

ajkb78 wrote: »

Vizirith wrote: »

The change to ash cloud is nice when paired with mobile enemies, considering the particularly low 5m radius. Don't really think it needed a buff and this was a very nice change.

Wings is still okay, not as good as it was but still pretty useful, if anything would need a little minor buff. Like maybe have the protective plate morph (2 secs snare/root immunity) give like 3 secs of minor expedition (still 15% more expensive than RAT and 20% less speed boost). And maybe dragon fire scale morph (fire dmg taken by projectile using enemy) hit the 2 nearest enemies instead of the attacker specifically. Would be a negligable buff for pvp but help a bit in pve with aoe damage.

Inhale and its morphs should have the initial damage done be fire not magic (why would it even be in the first place?).

Why would it make sense to have the first hit be flame? You're breathing in air, then you breathe the flame out on the second hit. The first hit of damage is done by the in breath, so no fire yet, so it has to be magic damage. (Just be grateful it isn't physical like other air related damage, eg hurricane, relequen winds...) I think DKs can live with it, it's just about the only source of non flame damage whereas every other class has its mix of elemental and magic damage types.

Just to add to your point, the initial hit does VERY low damage. Any modifiers you get from the damage being fire damage would not result in any significant increase in damage.

The secondary hit being independent of the initial cast (like proxy det), would actually make the skill viable.

Would be nice to potentially proc burning and combustion

Nagastani · October 2021

Wing wrote: »

the fact that the claimed this update would contain: " some long overdue Dragonknight love " compared to what we got is heartbreaking for me.

because if it did not then the hope for change or updates would still be there, now it will just be bad without the hope of an update.

hybrid whip, not stam
no changes to wings
no changes to inhale (man this skill looks so cool)
stonefist still whatever it is
shield too expensive (most dk skills to expensive tbh)
new ash cloud is a mess

man i want a class change so bad (dont even start with "oh just make a new character" i have mained this character since beta its far and away more then just its class, nobody who wants class change wants it because they cannot roll a new character)

I completely agree. This wasn't the sort of change I had expected and for many players wasn't what they were looking for.

Also think its weird how they're running this hybridization, I don't agree with the approach. Either make it one thing or the other but saying one skill scales with both mag and stam seems kind of lazy and pointless when Mag and Stam are separate for a reason.

And wings should not have been nerfed to begin with as it wasn't the problem. [snip] I remember back in the day when I would login and PvP frequently, I had killed so many DKs who tried to use wings as a counter. It was only effective in certain specific circumstances, just gap close and win, nothing more to it.

I would also like a class change token, which would allow me to move off DK as the class is weak and half the DK skills are bloated or out right useless, especially compared to what a Templar or Sorc is capable of.

[edited for baiting]

divnyi · October 2021

It's really weird that ppl discuss wings when DK has abilities that nobody ever use: Inhale, Stonefist, Ash Cloud.

I know wings can be a bit underwhelming, but they are at least useful in some situations.
Like, if you are not medium armor, Charging Maneuver + Protective Plate is your only reliable escape plan.

KhajiitLivesMatter · October 2021

AinSoph wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

the fact that the claimed this update would contain: " some long overdue Dragonknight love " compared to what we got is heartbreaking for me.

because if it did not then the hope for change or updates would still be there, now it will just be bad without the hope of an update.

hybrid whip, not stam
no changes to wings
no changes to inhale (man this skill looks so cool)
stonefist still whatever it is
shield too expensive (most dk skills to expensive tbh)
new ash cloud is a mess

man i want a class change so bad (dont even start with "oh just make a new character" i have mained this character since beta its far and away more then just its class, nobody who wants class change wants it because they cannot roll a new character)

1. speaking of pvp
dunno what ur talking about for me dk is the class with the best and easiest sustain good survivability and great dots
all in all dk is not op but doesnt rly need huge buffs

and its not only me but even the dk main players i know are fine with the state of it

the new changes are already a huge buff
sustain will be op
hybrid whip is easier to sustain as stam whip - if u use something like total konstansy u dont need ANY other source of sustain atall

why u want ANY more buffs i rly cant understand ATALL

btw wings are op - if u disagree show me a comparable skill that gives u more than 50% dr

Why need 50% projectile only DR when you can completely negate projectiles entirely with Warden's Shimmering Shield :,)

wardens shild only counts for 3 projectiles - if its used its only used for the ult reg

ESO_Nightingale · October 2021

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

AinSoph wrote: »

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

the fact that the claimed this update would contain: " some long overdue Dragonknight love " compared to what we got is heartbreaking for me.

because if it did not then the hope for change or updates would still be there, now it will just be bad without the hope of an update.

hybrid whip, not stam
no changes to wings
no changes to inhale (man this skill looks so cool)
stonefist still whatever it is
shield too expensive (most dk skills to expensive tbh)
new ash cloud is a mess

man i want a class change so bad (dont even start with "oh just make a new character" i have mained this character since beta its far and away more then just its class, nobody who wants class change wants it because they cannot roll a new character)

1. speaking of pvp
dunno what ur talking about for me dk is the class with the best and easiest sustain good survivability and great dots
all in all dk is not op but doesnt rly need huge buffs

and its not only me but even the dk main players i know are fine with the state of it

the new changes are already a huge buff
sustain will be op
hybrid whip is easier to sustain as stam whip - if u use something like total konstansy u dont need ANY other source of sustain atall

why u want ANY more buffs i rly cant understand ATALL

btw wings are op - if u disagree show me a comparable skill that gives u more than 50% dr

Why need 50% projectile only DR when you can completely negate projectiles entirely with Warden's Shimmering Shield :,)

wardens shild only counts for 3 projectiles - if its used its only used for the ult reg

Also, it has an internal cooldown where you can still be hit with projectiles in-between it, been killed through it before several times. not saying it's not strong but if you don't play the class it's really easy to point fingers and go "OP!!!", it doesn't do anything at all against melee builds so why shouldn't it be strong for the niche it does work against? Magicka Warden doesn't have room for it a lot of the time because we're so bad at healing ourselves we have to sacrifice huge amounts of slots in order to try to heal which still doesn't work that well anyway.

With that being said, DK Wings buff? why not? I think more utility would be interesting on it.

MECHA_STREISAND · October 2021

The whip changes are decent and can be sustained with charged trait and careful selection of glyphs / skills, but it's not easy by any stretch and I think a lot of players are going to struggle. I ran a fire staff on the back bar but am probably going to have to DW or Bow in content because I can *only just* sustain whip with wall of elements on the trial dummy. Anything short of an optimised trial group will make sustain poor (and that's not going to happen - see below).

IMO the hybridisation needs work in light of the above.

However, the biggest issue by miles with this "DK getting some love" is stam DK STILL has no utility in trial groups. Very disappointing.

Fennwitty · October 2021

Have to start somewhere.

Hopefully this continues into more frequent but smaller changes for all the classes.

Complete overhauls don't tend to work out (Vampire).