the shattering of hope and faith in the "dk update"

merpins

Wing wrote: »

i have mained this character since beta

As someone that participated in the beta myself, I recall no such thing as having characters from the beta roll over into the full launch. Do you mean you made the character in the beta, then made it again exactly as it was when the game launched?

I ask because I did the same with my nord character. He's now my crafter, but it definitely did not roll over into the game from the beta; I had to recreate him.

Wing

MovesLikeJaguar wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

i have mained this character since beta

As someone that participated in the beta myself, I recall no such thing as having characters from the beta roll over into the full launch. Do you mean you made the character in the beta, then made it again exactly as it was when the game launched?

I ask because I did the same with my nord character. He's now my crafter, but it definitely did not roll over into the game from the beta; I had to recreate him.

ye, first character i made during beta was a dark elf NB in EP, but starting in bleakrock in winter in RL was not the best idea, and i didnt care for balfoyen or stonefalls that much

(for those of you recent to ESO it used to be a linear path of level'd zones)

the second character i made was a DK in DC, fell in love with stros mkai (still my top 3 places to be) loved the sands and awesome looking water and beaches, loved DK, went full on tank unaware that because of softcaps i had WAY too much armor

(for those of you recent to ESO it used to have softcaps on all stats)

and that really sold me on the game, at launch made the exact same character and has been my main ever since, with many a race change over the years. (high elf < khajiit < redguard < khajiit < imperial < khajiit) :P

Wing

divnyi wrote: »

It's really weird that ppl discuss wings when DK has abilities that nobody ever use: Inhale, Stonefist, Ash Cloud.

I know wings can be a bit underwhelming, but they are at least useful in some situations.
Like, if you are not medium armor, Charging Maneuver + Protective Plate is your only reliable escape plan.

the problem is race against time exists.
its cheaper, combines the effects of snare removal and expedition, procs psijic passives, and gives you minor force.

there is no good reason to use protective scales over this skill.

a dragon fire scales is just pitiful damage and a sad skill.

i mean compare that to wardens shield and its just sad.

if wings were changed to work like evasion and its morphs:
reduce ranged damage by 20%

morphs
-dragon fire launches a projectile back over duration when hit
-protective grants snare cleanse for 2 seconds over duration when hit

that would be cool.

but yeah, stone fist, ash cloud, inhale (man that skill looks so cool) are still terrible and might as well not exist, very sad.

Wellsley

MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »

The whip changes are decent and can be sustained with charged trait and careful selection of glyphs / skills, but it's not easy by any stretch and I think a lot of players are going to struggle. I ran a fire staff on the back bar but am probably going to have to DW or Bow in content because I can *only just* sustain whip with wall of elements on the trial dummy. Anything short of an optimised trial group will make sustain poor (and that's not going to happen - see below).

IMO the hybridisation needs work in light of the above.

However, the biggest issue by miles with this "DK getting some love" is stam DK STILL has no utility in trial groups. Very disappointing.

Difficult in pvp considering all the useful skills that cost magicka.

Wing

Wellsley wrote: »

MECHA_STREISAND wrote: »

The whip changes are decent and can be sustained with charged trait and careful selection of glyphs / skills, but it's not easy by any stretch and I think a lot of players are going to struggle. I ran a fire staff on the back bar but am probably going to have to DW or Bow in content because I can *only just* sustain whip with wall of elements on the trial dummy. Anything short of an optimised trial group will make sustain poor (and that's not going to happen - see below).

IMO the hybridisation needs work in light of the above.

However, the biggest issue by miles with this "DK getting some love" is stam DK STILL has no utility in trial groups. Very disappointing.

Difficult in pvp considering all the useful skills that cost magicka.

yup, hard to get over ingrained systems in the game since launch.

if your stam you probably have a focus on stam cost reduction passives and enchants, as well as stam recovery and have little in the way of the same for magicka, and use magicka for buffs / utility. using a stam spamable that costs magicka that has no cost reduction or recovery tied to the stat is just bad.

this is only for new players that equip random sets and dont know the games mechanics, serious magicka and stam players will both avoid it, they ruined a morph.

Vaoh

Lava Whip and its morphs should base their ability cost with your dominant maximum stat.

Also it’d be nice if Inhale initiated its secondary explosion effect regardless if the initial tick hit an enemy.

DK isn’t looking bad at all tbh.

Urzigurumash

Vaoh wrote: »

Lava Whip and its morphs should base their ability cost with your dominant maximum stat.

Is there any skill in the game which does this? If not perhaps the code for this doesn't exist?

Vevvev

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Lava Whip and its morphs should base their ability cost with your dominant maximum stat.

Is there any skill in the game which does this? If not perhaps the code for this doesn't exist?

No, but next patch is seeing the first instance of an ability that costs two resources instead of just one. That ability is Nightblade's Malevolent Offering which will cost both health and magicka which is pretty neat. Shows they can get creative with such things in the game code.

Vaoh

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Lava Whip and its morphs should base their ability cost with your dominant maximum stat.

Is there any skill in the game which does this? If not perhaps the code for this doesn't exist?

There are always work arounds in coding. So assuming they can’t switch an ability’s cost based on your highest offensive stat, they can instead let the ability have two different effects based on your highest offensive stats... similar to Soul Trap.

- The skill tooltip can display a Cost of “2295 Magicka or Stamina”
- Secretly, the skill does not have any cost.
- With higher Magicka/Spell Damage, the skill will deal 2323 Flame Damage. Secretly, it also consumes 2295 Magicka.
- With higher Magicka/Spell Damage, the skill will deal 2323 Flame Damage (or Poison Damage if that’s what we want). Secretly, it also consumes 2295 Stamina.

So in other words, the actual cost of the ability is nothing. However, the individual conditions will drain a resource.

Anyway just an idea. I don’t think anyone knows what we can/can’t do besides zos though.

Urzigurumash

Vaoh wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Lava Whip and its morphs should base their ability cost with your dominant maximum stat.

Is there any skill in the game which does this? If not perhaps the code for this doesn't exist?

There are always work arounds in coding. So assuming they can’t switch an ability’s cost based on your highest offensive stat, they can instead let the ability have two different effects based on your highest offensive stats... similar to Soul Trap.

- The skill tooltip can display a Cost of “2295 Magicka or Stamina”
- Secretly, the skill does not have any cost.
- With higher Magicka/Spell Damage, the skill will deal 2323 Flame Damage. Secretly, it also consumes 2295 Magicka.
- With higher Magicka/Spell Damage, the skill will deal 2323 Flame Damage (or Poison Damage if that’s what we want). Secretly, it also consumes 2295 Stamina.

So in other words, the actual cost of the ability is nothing. However, the individual conditions will drain a resource.

Anyway just an idea. I don’t think anyone knows what we can/can’t do besides zos though.

Yeah I could see that might work programmatically, but doesn't Soul Trap always cost Mag?

It might not be simple to make it work like that and have it be affected by Cost Reductions though, or Magnus' Gift, Trappings of Invig, etc. Obviously we don't know.

Anyhow we got the Battle Roar adjustment we all wanted. It might not be Nirn-shattering for all content but for some things it will be a substantial increase in Power.

kojou

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Lava Whip and its morphs should base their ability cost with your dominant maximum stat.

Is there any skill in the game which does this? If not perhaps the code for this doesn't exist?

There are always work arounds in coding. So assuming they can’t switch an ability’s cost based on your highest offensive stat, they can instead let the ability have two different effects based on your highest offensive stats... similar to Soul Trap.

- The skill tooltip can display a Cost of “2295 Magicka or Stamina”
- Secretly, the skill does not have any cost.
- With higher Magicka/Spell Damage, the skill will deal 2323 Flame Damage. Secretly, it also consumes 2295 Magicka.
- With higher Magicka/Spell Damage, the skill will deal 2323 Flame Damage (or Poison Damage if that’s what we want). Secretly, it also consumes 2295 Stamina.

So in other words, the actual cost of the ability is nothing. However, the individual conditions will drain a resource.

Anyway just an idea. I don’t think anyone knows what we can/can’t do besides zos though.

Yeah I could see that might work programmatically, but doesn't Soul Trap always cost Mag?

It might not be simple to make it work like that and have it be affected by Cost Reductions though, or Magnus' Gift, Trappings of Invig, etc. Obviously we don't know.

Anyhow we got the Battle Roar adjustment we all wanted. It might not be Nirn-shattering for all content but for some things it will be a substantial increase in Power.

I can imagine that they can make it cost whatever amount of whatever resources they want, but conditionally making it cost a different resource is probably a challenge. I would like to think they would have done it if they could have coded it easily.

BattleAxe

kojou wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Urzigurumash wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

Lava Whip and its morphs should base their ability cost with your dominant maximum stat.

Is there any skill in the game which does this? If not perhaps the code for this doesn't exist?

There are always work arounds in coding. So assuming they can’t switch an ability’s cost based on your highest offensive stat, they can instead let the ability have two different effects based on your highest offensive stats... similar to Soul Trap.

- The skill tooltip can display a Cost of “2295 Magicka or Stamina”
- Secretly, the skill does not have any cost.
- With higher Magicka/Spell Damage, the skill will deal 2323 Flame Damage. Secretly, it also consumes 2295 Magicka.
- With higher Magicka/Spell Damage, the skill will deal 2323 Flame Damage (or Poison Damage if that’s what we want). Secretly, it also consumes 2295 Stamina.

So in other words, the actual cost of the ability is nothing. However, the individual conditions will drain a resource.

Anyway just an idea. I don’t think anyone knows what we can/can’t do besides zos though.

Yeah I could see that might work programmatically, but doesn't Soul Trap always cost Mag?

It might not be simple to make it work like that and have it be affected by Cost Reductions though, or Magnus' Gift, Trappings of Invig, etc. Obviously we don't know.

Anyhow we got the Battle Roar adjustment we all wanted. It might not be Nirn-shattering for all content but for some things it will be a substantial increase in Power.

I can imagine that they can make it cost whatever amount of whatever resources they want, but conditionally making it cost a different resource is probably a challenge. I would like to think they would have done it if they could have coded it easily.

The coding is already in game ie block costing stam or magicka whether frost staff is equipped

Stx

I hate dramatic posts like this.

DKs got some damn nice changes. Just because they didn't make changes to EVERY skill doesn't mean it's not going to be a great patch for DKs. Every class has dead spells no one uses.

Wing

Stx wrote: »

Every class has dead spells no one uses.

lol, im sure that was the designers intent and a great philosophy to design classes around. +1

Bl4ckR3alm93

KhajiitLivesMatter wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

the fact that the claimed this update would contain: " some long overdue Dragonknight love " compared to what we got is heartbreaking for me.

because if it did not then the hope for change or updates would still be there, now it will just be bad without the hope of an update.

hybrid whip, not stam
no changes to wings
no changes to inhale (man this skill looks so cool)
stonefist still whatever it is
shield too expensive (most dk skills to expensive tbh)
new ash cloud is a mess

man i want a class change so bad (dont even start with "oh just make a new character" i have mained this character since beta its far and away more then just its class, nobody who wants class change wants it because they cannot roll a new character)

1. speaking of pvp
dunno what ur talking about for me dk is the class with the best and easiest sustain good survivability and great dots
all in all dk is not op but doesnt rly need huge buffs

and its not only me but even the dk main players i know are fine with the state of it

the new changes are already a huge buff
sustain will be op
hybrid whip is easier to sustain as stam whip - if u use something like total konstansy u dont need ANY other source of sustain atall

why u want ANY more buffs i rly cant understand ATALL

btw wings are op - if u disagree show me a comparable skill that gives u more than 50% dr

I for one also like the new Stam Whip too, as you said its easier to sustain. I wouldn't mind Stone Giant being a poison damage morph and they can just change the name.

Stx

Wing wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Every class has dead spells no one uses.

lol, im sure that was the designers intent and a great philosophy to design classes around. +1

In an ideal world every spell would be useful and fun, but thats not reality for whatever reason. I disagree with the premise that because some DK spells didn't get attention, this patch isn't a fantastic patch for DKs.

danthemann5

I wouldn't call this patch great, amazing, or fantastic. I would, however, call it a good start. Too many DK skills either do too little, cost too much, or both. That remains to be addressed.

The one big, glaring, overriding shortfall of this patch is NO REAL STAMWHIP.

Ragnarock41

Stx wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Every class has dead spells no one uses.

lol, im sure that was the designers intent and a great philosophy to design classes around. +1

this patch isn't a fantastic patch for DKs.

Said, the person who would not play a Dk anytime soon.

Malthorne

ZOS: May this finally end the fiery and age-old debate over getting a Stamina Whip

it’s not a stam whip if it cost magicka

BattleAxe

Malthorne wrote: »

ZOS: May this finally end the fiery and age-old debate over getting a Stamina Whip

it’s not a stam whip if it cost magicka

What does stam dk really gain by making a morph of whip cost stam considering as it is currently whip costing mag at least in pve is a boon to dk dps sustain. In pvp some could kind of argue for a stam cost but even then there is still the benefits to it costing magicka.

Would I like a stam poison whip 100% but this is closest to it we have come so far and I’ll take it for now but pushing to hard sometimes is detrimental to a cause.

Stx

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Every class has dead spells no one uses.

lol, im sure that was the designers intent and a great philosophy to design classes around. +1

this patch isn't a fantastic patch for DKs.

Said, the person who would not play a Dk anytime soon.

I purposefully updated my stamDKs gear and finished leveling some of his unfinished skill lines. It is an extremely fun and powerful class.

Ragnarock41

Stx wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Every class has dead spells no one uses.

lol, im sure that was the designers intent and a great philosophy to design classes around. +1

this patch isn't a fantastic patch for DKs.

Said, the person who would not play a Dk anytime soon.

I purposefully updated my stamDKs gear and finished leveling some of his unfinished skill lines. It is an extremely fun and powerful class.

Is it because its an extremely fun and powerful class that you did not bother to play it all this time? Please.

You think the new combustion will be broken, that is how little you know about things.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/587000/new-charged-combustion#latest


You just watched others played DK, maybe barely dipped your toes into the playstyle to help with your confirmation bias, and now you think you know it better than people who main the class do.

Wing

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Every class has dead spells no one uses.

lol, im sure that was the designers intent and a great philosophy to design classes around. +1

this patch isn't a fantastic patch for DKs.

Said, the person who would not play a Dk anytime soon.

I purposefully updated my stamDKs gear and finished leveling some of his unfinished skill lines. It is an extremely fun and powerful class.

Is it because its an extremely fun and powerful class that you did not bother to play it all this time? Please.

You think the new combustion will be broken, that is how little you know about things.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/587000/new-charged-combustion#latest


You just watched others played DK, maybe barely dipped your toes into the playstyle to help with your confirmation bias, and now you think you know it better than people who main the class do.

props on the callout, when i read "leveling unfinished skill lines" i kind of wrote it off too.

Ragnarock41

Wing wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Every class has dead spells no one uses.

lol, im sure that was the designers intent and a great philosophy to design classes around. +1

this patch isn't a fantastic patch for DKs.

Said, the person who would not play a Dk anytime soon.

I purposefully updated my stamDKs gear and finished leveling some of his unfinished skill lines. It is an extremely fun and powerful class.

Is it because its an extremely fun and powerful class that you did not bother to play it all this time? Please.

You think the new combustion will be broken, that is how little you know about things.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/587000/new-charged-combustion#latest


You just watched others played DK, maybe barely dipped your toes into the playstyle to help with your confirmation bias, and now you think you know it better than people who main the class do.

props on the callout, when i read "leveling unfinished skill lines" i kind of wrote it off too.

Guess the grass is greener on the other side to some people. The patch is a start, but there is nothing fantastic about a patch that is many, many years late.

Stx

Wing wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Every class has dead spells no one uses.

lol, im sure that was the designers intent and a great philosophy to design classes around. +1

this patch isn't a fantastic patch for DKs.

Said, the person who would not play a Dk anytime soon.

I purposefully updated my stamDKs gear and finished leveling some of his unfinished skill lines. It is an extremely fun and powerful class.

Is it because its an extremely fun and powerful class that you did not bother to play it all this time? Please.

You think the new combustion will be broken, that is how little you know about things.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/587000/new-charged-combustion#latest


You just watched others played DK, maybe barely dipped your toes into the playstyle to help with your confirmation bias, and now you think you know it better than people who main the class do.

props on the callout, when i read "leveling unfinished skill lines" i kind of wrote it off too.

You two must be those brilliant types that think in order to know about something or have a discussion about something, you need to play it directly.

Like if they announced a change for nightblade saying "surprise attack now deals double damage and grants every major buff in the game". I guess you can't tell that's overtuned because you don't main a nightblade.

Imagine no one except actual sports players talking about sports.

😒

Wing

Stx wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Ragnarock41 wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Wing wrote: »

Stx wrote: »

Every class has dead spells no one uses.

lol, im sure that was the designers intent and a great philosophy to design classes around. +1

this patch isn't a fantastic patch for DKs.

Said, the person who would not play a Dk anytime soon.

I purposefully updated my stamDKs gear and finished leveling some of his unfinished skill lines. It is an extremely fun and powerful class.

Is it because its an extremely fun and powerful class that you did not bother to play it all this time? Please.

You think the new combustion will be broken, that is how little you know about things.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/587000/new-charged-combustion#latest


You just watched others played DK, maybe barely dipped your toes into the playstyle to help with your confirmation bias, and now you think you know it better than people who main the class do.

props on the callout, when i read "leveling unfinished skill lines" i kind of wrote it off too.

You two must be those brilliant types that think in order to know about something or have a discussion about something, you need to play it directly.

Like if they announced a change for nightblade saying "surprise attack now deals double damage and grants every major buff in the game". I guess you can't tell that's overtuned because you don't main a nightblade.

Imagine no one except actual sports players talking about sports.

😒

apples and oranges.

on a broad and generic sense your are correct in that most people have a general understanding of general things and can make a broad assumption given that.

when you are on a fine technical level of slight adjustments to a specific subject you generally want someone with intimate knowledge and mastery of that craft, thus the education system.

there is a reason most sports commentators are former players, why car manufacturers get former race car drivers to test drive the car, and why esports shoutcasters are also generally former or current players.

any player can see "number go up it buff!" but someone who plays only DK at a competitive level will have an intimate understanding of how or why something is (or is not) rather then someone with a generic "i leveld a DK it seems good"

DK did get "buffs"

it also got half way measures on things like stam whip that feels like someone is being purposefully obstinate and refusing to give the players what they want on purpose, perhaps because in so doing would mean the players have been right for *several YEARS* and this would admit fault of some kind, it happens.

this is literally one of the things brought up when comparing games like FF14 to games like WoW. the fact that devs communicate why or why not something can or cannot happen.

back when DK got the stam rocks the devs admitted that they just didn't want to give dk a stam whip, just because. there was no other reason other then they just didn't want to do it, period. and even in this update the language used is essentially "this is as close as your ever going to get stop asking" its not fun to complain about a pain point and devs admitting to knowing about it but refusing to act on it deliberately.

you know how annoying it is to play a class or a game were obvious choices are not made because they are obvious and asked for. . . there is a reason "the curtains are blue" is a decently known literary term that has been applied to game devs.

i wont get into all the glossed over skills again, inhale is one of the COOLEST looking skill in the game, its also terrible.

MentalxHammer

Really I’m having the opposite experience, DK feels perfect right now. Just slot dual sustain food like orzorgas or jewels of misrule and the mag cost isn’t bad