Dark Convergence nerf doesn't go far enough

doesurmindglow

There, it's been said.

The many complaints players are having with this set will likely persist if the current adjustment goes live. Initial testing suggests it will remain overpowered in PVP, delivering both damage and utility at little to no cost to the player. It still bypasses the universal CC cooldown, as far as we can tell from testing, which means even if you don't get pulled by the same Dark Convergence proc as often, you'll still get yo-yoed around by multiple players running the set. The damage scaling adjustment sounds good in theory, but at a target count of only 6 players the proc remains about as strong as it is on the live server, and at 7 players, the proc is stronger still.

This set does too much at too little cost. In general, snares and stuns are frustrating game mechanics for most players, especially newer players and those running outside organized "ball groups" that don't have access to a lot of sources of snare immunity. Introducing new sources of cc without any significant resource cost means more experiences being rendered incapable of counterplay. Because lag is so persistent in Cyrodiil, players often cannot break free from all these new and ubiquitous sources of cc. Given that reality, any stun or otherwise disabling ability probably should cost resources to deploy; but if we do want to maintain this pretty toxic mechanic being provided for free from a set, let's at least eliminate more of the damage, so players actually are required to use it strategically and in conjunction with a thoughtful combination of abilities to achieve their results.

Bottom line: This set will remain too strong to be a niche use under the proposed changes, and will probably remain "meta" in PVP, and the complaints about it will generally remain. It will be strongest on ball groups and in "zergs" who can deploy it in a chain of procs from multiple players, and the damage scaling likely will not be sufficient to eliminate that potential.

Please reconsider the adjustments and place the set on the regular CC cooldown that applies to most other disabling effects in the game.

Gilvoth

this set was made and it works to stop ball groups and zergs.
it works, its what we asked zenimax to do.

we asked for help to stop ball groups and zergs, this set does that, it doesnt need nerfed, it needs buffed.

doesurmindglow

It doesn't do that at all. It's used in every meta ball group comp. Most ball group raid leaders call out when they want the proc. It's an absolute godsend for ball groups, and they do not need it.

Jman100582

People that defend this set as it is a "counter against ball groups" tend to forget that ball groups can use anything and everything a solo pvper, a small scale pvp group of 4-5 players, or a 12 man group of randoms you pick up in area chat 10 times more effectively. Half the time, the aoe doesn't even spawn that shows you the sets effect, so you just get pulled by a convergence you thought could've been yours or another players on your alliance. And if you manage to get out of that one, another one pulls you in. And this process repeats endlessly until you run out of stam and die. Only a few classes have "instant escape" abilities like streak or shade. The rest just get swallowed up and die eventually from either dmg or resource drain

Nogawd

It's the same people in every DC thread.

They have an agenda and refuse to adapt.

They just complain to try and fix.

Jman100582

Nogawd wrote: »

It's the same people in every DC thread.

They have an agenda and refuse to adapt.

They just complain to try and fix.

How do you adapt to a set that pulls you in repeatedly, can't even be seen sometimes, can't be rolled out of because it pulls you THROUGH roll dodge, and hits for 30k+? And don't even give me the "don't be near other players", I've been hit for 15-30k just because the set pulls guards to me to. Just holding block and slowly walking out of the aoe while being hit by snipe, d swing, blastblones, and whatever aoe pulled you into the dc in the first place like mines or caltrops isn't a good "counter"

EF321

What it really needs to be "anti zerg" sets is minimal required amount of targets before it can pull. Say, six for example? If there are less than six payers in proc area, no one gets pulled. Hell, even remove/significantly reduce damage if zerg conditions are not satisfied.

That way it can no longer be used against solo/small scale and will be niche set it was supposed to be.


Am DC (ab)user myself for as long as it lasts.

ajkb78

I'm not by any means a good PvP player but even I can manage to avoid DC most of the time. Does it sometimes get me? Yes. Is it something to be aware of? Yes. But it's hardly gamebreaking, I still end up dying to pretty much everything else far more often. I went in to Cyro a week or so after the patch expecting to be pulled off every wall and be unable to focus a player because of all the DC pulls... Nope. Hasn't been like that at all, IME.

I don't think it's particularly effective against ball groups though. I don't think any set will be an effective counter, ball groups will just use it better.

If ball groups are such a problem and need something done about them, the only way I can see that would actually work is to introduce a direct penalty to healing done and damage done based on the number of allies within x metres (tune percentages and distance to suit). Stack up in a ball? Whoops, there goes all your damage and all your healing. It could be done through battle spirit so as not to affect pve. I'm not saying it's a good idea, in fact I don't think it is for several reasons, but it would at least be effective whereas 'anti ball group sets' tend to just empower ball groups more.

xylena_lazarow

Faction stack zergs are still unstoppable, and proper ballgroups are still unkillable. This set has not and will not address either of these problems, bringing only random pulls and damage spikes that make PvP frustrating.

ZeroDPS

Faction stack zerg unstoppable groups can be wiped out with proper bomber builds(magika), about DC set, its okay its not overperforming, sometimes you kill sometimes you die, its really okay

Jameson18

It isn't the damage from the set. It is the disruption of combat flow. The amount of people using the set and what effect that has was clearly not anticipated nor tested. At least by the developers involved. The rest of us knew.

Set should be deactivated until adjustments are made. Changes to the set that are on PTS should have gone in when the ninja Hrothgar fix got put in.

Concept is cool. Execution was a catastrophe.

divnyi

IMO, pull is fine. This game needs some PvP-oriented CC sets. Everything except pull isn't fine.

Why do we need bigger radius AoE? It hits for the same damage as Shadow of the Red Mountain, AoE. It's range is bigger than roll out from the center. Remove it.

Why do we need snare? Some ground-based abilities snare by itself. The ones that don't shouldn't get it for free. Remove it.

Make pull dodgeable. It is not pull skill, it is AoE proc that also stuns, unlike pull.

Make the central blast radius tad bit smaller too.

This set specifically can also place dark conversion immunity once pulled, blocked or dodged, for the length of cooldown.

StarOfElyon

This set is the biggest middle finger to pvpers. THAT'S HOW IT FEELS!

SoulwayFilth

To be honest, just have the set work like other CC & it will be fine. Sucks that you can break cc & roll dodge & still get pulled. So any lag, which there is a alot, just makes it even worse.

If you are cc immune, it should not pull. I would also like it to not pull you out of mid flight Dragon Leap...

Aldoss

ajkb78 wrote: »

I'm not by any means a good PvP player but even I can manage to avoid DC most of the time. Does it sometimes get me? Yes. Is it something to be aware of? Yes. But it's hardly gamebreaking

As others have pointed out, the damage isn't the problem. The pull is (mostly) the problem. But the unique combination of its effects is the most egregious problem.

Prior to DC, the only AOE in the game that could even come close to voiding entire sections of the combat field was Boneyard, and that doesn't even come close because the chances that the caster was using harmony AND had the synergy active was very low.

Prior to DC, you could choose to run through any aoe. You could choose to sit in most aoe.

Post DC, you cannot choose to run through DC. You cannot choose to sit in DC. You will likely die if you do, which means that a low CD proc with universally cheap conditions has effectively nullified entire sections of the battlefield from any opponents.

I'm not sure what your definition of game breaking is, but that sounds like a textbook definition to me. Have you played a BG match recently in Istirus with more than 2 DC users?

Kaelthorn_Nightbloom

I'd rather have them nerf too little than too much.

Look at Hrothgar, it does 25% of the splash damage it used to and nobody uses it anymore. Way overnerfed.

axi

Gilvoth wrote: »

this set was made and it works to stop ball groups and zergs.
it works, its what we asked zenimax to do.

we asked for help to stop ball groups and zergs, this set does that, it doesnt need nerfed, it needs buffed.

What? If anything this set massively helps zergs.

axi

Atleast turn it off in BGs. Since the BG release there was not a single set which would be even close with the impact it had there.

divnyi

SkaraMinoc wrote: »

I'd rather have them nerf too little than too much.

Look at Hrothgar, it does 25% of the splash damage it used to and nobody uses it anymore. Way overnerfed.

Nobody ever wanted that set to splash. They had a chance to make armor-buster set and they ruined that opportinity.

Magio_

Dark Convergence 5pc bonus should've been the Alliance Assault Skill Tree's Ultimate ability. A huge cooldown due to high Ult Cost that was rewarded by good timing and placement, not something any noob can spam every 15 seconds. Instead, the Ultimate we have in that tree is BiS for PvE and seldomly used in PvP.

P.S. Stop saying Dark Convergence was made to fight organized groups. It was made for organized group to fight bigger groups of zerglings. Plaguebreak was the set made to fight Ballgroups.

xDeusEJRx

I think a good way to nerf it is by deleting it

angelofdeath333

Its not nerfed enough until they remove it from the game. Then we shall have peace and balance in the universe.

Fennwitty

Players: "Ball groups and cross-healing are a problem in the War for Cyrodiil."

ZoS: "What if we gave everyone nukes and ended the War?"

The_Wunderboy

For people, like myself, who are still learning pvp and use BGs as a training ground for learning new (read as constant changing builds due to content being rendered obsolete before people can even get ahold of new sets much less rebuild/learn their characters) setups and already struggle with resource sustain vs effective and fun gameplay, Dark Convergence has all but put a stop to any will I have to pvp frequently. PVP is hard enough without throwing the "Get out of the blastzone in a small tight space where everyone is placed by design" minigame. If I DO get out, usually on a NB thanks to cloak and cloak speed, I will find myself completely out of resources even in all Med with decent stam rec. On a magic class without streak? Forget it.

ZOS_Volpe

Greetings,

After removing a few posts that were bashing and non-constructive and with there already being a thread open on this topic, we're going to close this one down so that all feedback can be consolidated in one place. You may continue the discussion here.

Thank you for your understanding.