please trust in that we love the game.

wubbelflup

i would really like the game to mechanically trust that i'll come back.
you don't need to force me to log in everyday and upgrade my mount.
you don't need to give me rewards unobtainable unless you login daily.
you don't need to give me DLC items for DLC's i do not own.
you do not need to limit my inventory in the hope i'll buy plus.
you do not need me to farm huge amounts of gold to make it possible to have a useful inventory on a new character.
you don't need to give me daily rewards for investing my time and hope we'll champion it as a gift to f2p players.
you don't need to have a currency bought by currency in the hope we won't notice we're spending IRL money.
you don't need to give me daily rewards for playing every separate game mode in the game.
you don't need a extensive time based upgrade system that you'll need to check daily if you want to make progress. instead of you know.. a fun minigame? like antiquities perhaps?
you don't need a lootbox system with a cat that sells it like he's selling some kind of shady pills. in fact, if i ever saw someone like that irl. i'd probably punch him haha, who thought that was okay?

just make a fun game, and we'll buy DLC's. fully voice acted, enormous world, lot's of lore. why this?
i know this is "normal for MMORPG's" but that doesn't mean it's okay.
[snip]

[edited for baiting]

Grandchamp1989

While Zos is very generous compared to Many other developers, I do find some truth to what you say.

Most of my time in game is spend doing Daily stuff (repeatables) instead of progressing through the actual content.

I log in on multiple characters do to:
- Daily login bonus
-Daily Writs
-Grab surveys
-upgrade mounts
-get my Daily free stuff from “Remains Silent”

Then I log into my main and:

- get my Daily dragon coffer in southern elseweyr
- Do daily quest in leyawiin
- Do my Endeveavors
- Do my daily dungeon/BG
- Check what antiquities may be about to expire

By the time I’m ready to actually play what I want maybe an hour has gone by if not more.

peacenote

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

While Zos is very generous compared to Many other developers, I do find some truth to what you say.

Most of my time in game is spend doing Daily stuff (repeatables) instead of progressing through the actual content.

I log in on multiple characters do to:
- Daily login bonus
-Daily Writs
-Grab surveys
-upgrade mounts
-get my Daily free stuff from “Remains Silent”

Then I log into my main and:

- get my Daily dragon coffer in southern elseweyr
- Do daily quest in leyawiin
- Do my Endeveavors
- Do my daily dungeon/BG
- Check what antiquities may be about to expire

By the time I’m ready to actually play what I want maybe an hour has gone by if not more.

Yep. Agreed and same. And actually, with the addition of endeavors, lately it's kind of pushed me over the edge where I have stopped trying. A few little goals per day can be fun, but it has gotten to be too much for me, such that when I think about my time in game I have to choose WHICH regular carrot I have time to do. Changes it from being a reward/goal into feeling like a manipulation of my time, and it does sour me on the game a bit.

The counter argument will be that we don't HAVE to do these things, but it is a weak argument for a game that actively encourages players to do everything - PvE things are obtained by PvPing, combat things are obtained by Antiquities Leads, etc.

joseayalac

While I do the writs every time I log in, I just ignore the seals of endeavor, they seem too much of a hazzle to pursue.

I actually have quite a bit of seals already just by playing normally.

Sergg007

indeed! I stopped going through the story because I am tempted every day to do this crap!

AScarlato

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

While Zos is very generous compared to Many other developers, I do find some truth to what you say.

Most of my time in game is spend doing Daily stuff (repeatables) instead of progressing through the actual content.

I log in on multiple characters do to:
- Daily login bonus
-Daily Writs
-Grab surveys
-upgrade mounts
-get my Daily free stuff from “Remains Silent”

Then I log into my main and:

- get my Daily dragon coffer in southern elseweyr
- Do daily quest in leyawiin
- Do my Endeveavors
- Do my daily dungeon/BG
- Check what antiquities may be about to expire

By the time I’m ready to actually play what I want maybe an hour has gone by if not more.

So much this!

By the time I'm done doing all this stuff I'm out of time to enjoy the storylines or do other activity. I think Questing and other content needs to have increased XP and rewards that match or at least come close to what you get from "daily chores" which is what they end up feeling like to me.

I do understand the one day extra bonus for Dungeons and BGs though as they may need incentive for content you need groups for to have people actually do them. BUt the other solo dailies feel extreme to me.

Vevvev

The average gamer only has about an hour a day in order to play video games. The moment something becomes too far out of reach to accomplish they'll either stop trying or quit the game entirely for one more their speed. Despite having thousands of hours and many hours to play ESO I know it's player base doesn't have the time I have and ZOS should look at tuning the dailies down a bit.

Artim_X

The game is fun though.

Sergg007

They provoke us to do the same routine every day. In the end, I don't even have enough time to go through the story or just enjoy the game. And then the stupid events begin and they forse me to do more and more of this crap to get stupid items, because you won't be able to get them later...

Its_MySniff

Ha. You aren't provoked or forced to do anything. If it's that bad for you, maybe , just maybe take a break.

Sergg007

you missed the point, I just don't want to do something on a schedule. the game forces me to do it otherwise the opportunity will be missed ..

Its_MySniff

I understand what you were trying to say. I've played since nov. '16, I get it. Again, the game isn't forcing you to do anything. It is your choice, your decision. Don't let FOMO lead you around. Or do, it's a choice. No worries, just enjoy. Cheers

SeaGtGruff

I don't mind things like endeavors and events that encourage me to do specific activities during any given day or week for a reward, because they often encourage me to revisit zones or activities that I haven't done in a while, and I find that I do enjoy them even though it's been a while since I've done them.

And most of the time I complete one, two, or sometimes all three of the daily endeavors without even trying, because they're for things I normally do anyway.

As for daily login rewards, they do encourage me to log in each day, but most of the time they aren't so spectacular that I feel like I'd be losing out big by missing a few days of logging in.

AScarlato

SeaGtGruff wrote: »

As for daily login rewards, they do encourage me to log in each day, but most of the time they aren't so spectacular that I feel like I'd be losing out big by missing a few days of logging in.

Meanwhile there's me, who literally watched my countdown reach zero with extended hands for that 100K gold they just gave out lol.

Ballermfrau

Well some optimize the fun out of the game.

Nanfoodle

Funny, all that stuff is there but I only use it when I feel like it. If I'm one step away from a reward I don't feel like doing. I play the way I want. There is an entire game filled with things. It's all options. Not mandatory.

robwolf666

you don't need to have a currency bought by currency in the hope we won't notice we're spending IRL money

No, but it nicely disguises the fact that some mounts etc at 5000 Crowns, or 15 Crown Crates at the same amount, costs you the equivalent of two dlc packs - at an IRL life of approx £25 to £30 --- for a horse, or bunch of stuff you don't need in a crate.

I know which of those is more worth the money - the dlc packs.

peacenote

Its_MySniff wrote: »

I understand what you were trying to say. I've played since nov. '16, I get it. Again, the game isn't forcing you to do anything. It is your choice, your decision. Don't let FOMO lead you around. Or do, it's a choice. No worries, just enjoy. Cheers

I knew someone would say this (and you were quite polite and positive so ty) but... I don't think it's that binary of a discussion point.

I'm a "since beta" player, and while yes there is always a choice, I can say as someone who until recently could always keep up and participate in the main goings-on with the gaming time I had - there has been a change. There is an almost frenzied, let's-add-more-time-sink-changes-to-the-game trend (while-pretending-to-cater-to-casuals-which-typically-means-people-who-play-less) that is not fair to throw back on players as FOMO if we can't keep up.

I think the line is, what we could get done in a certain time commitment. The time needed to check off the "basic activity" boxes has sky rocketed. And it's not "more choices." If it were truly about more choices, writs would count as endeavors every day, and I would always get them naturally without planning. If it were truly about just adding fun, leads wouldn't expire, adding a forced, calculated sense of urgency on top of a grind. (In fact, the cynic in me feels that the main reason smart loot was added was because the REAL grind for BIS items is now mythics, which are not affected by this RNG improvement.)

Also, it's easy to say "don't be lead around" but if for years it was no problem to obtain event rewards and suddenly it is almost impossible without putting in significantly more time or buying from the Crown Store... that's a red flag and concern.

There is always a choice to participate or not, quit or not.... but when the tactics push people to NOT participate or quit because partipating is much more tedious than before, we all lose because this is an MMO which requires an active community to thrive. People like to get the rewards and participate... it should be reasonable to do so or it takes the fun out of what is called a game! It is not a success when less people bother to collect event rewards or farm fragments, or whatever. It means they've gone too far.

OneForSorrow

A hybrid of ESO and FFXIV would be my dream game. FFXIV is so good about respecting time investments and has a vertical progression system based around its story.

But ESO has excellent exploration and scratches an itch nothing else does. Maybe I just long for ESO to be a sub game again so they can take pressure off the crown shop and luring in free to play users.

Amottica

MMORPGs like to develop habits to keep people logging in and keeping them busy. Long ago I chose to play the MMORPGs and not let them play me. When I find that aspects of the game tend to be a chore I dial those back. I suggest the same for OP and everyone.

ajkb78

peacenote wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

While Zos is very generous compared to Many other developers, I do find some truth to what you say.

Most of my time in game is spend doing Daily stuff (repeatables) instead of progressing through the actual content.

I log in on multiple characters do to:
- Daily login bonus
-Daily Writs
-Grab surveys
-upgrade mounts
-get my Daily free stuff from “Remains Silent”

Then I log into my main and:

- get my Daily dragon coffer in southern elseweyr
- Do daily quest in leyawiin
- Do my Endeveavors
- Do my daily dungeon/BG
- Check what antiquities may be about to expire

By the time I’m ready to actually play what I want maybe an hour has gone by if not more.

Yep. Agreed and same. And actually, with the addition of endeavors, lately it's kind of pushed me over the edge where I have stopped trying. A few little goals per day can be fun, but it has gotten to be too much for me, such that when I think about my time in game I have to choose WHICH regular carrot I have time to do. Changes it from being a reward/goal into feeling like a manipulation of my time, and it does sour me on the game a bit.

The counter argument will be that we don't HAVE to do these things, but it is a weak argument for a game that actively encourages players to do everything - PvE things are obtained by PvPing, combat things are obtained by Antiquities Leads, etc.

Just do what you enjoy. I tend to do vet pledges and a random normal at some point, I usually do the endeavours because they're so quick. I used to do crafting writs daily but I got bored of that, I'm not doing them at all at the moment. I kind of do surveys every once in a blue moon when I have a load to go through. Mounts I do once in a blue moon, they're mostly upgraded on my main and PvP toon but most toons have a bare minimum of mount upgrading. I never bother with battlegrounds, I only bother with the dragon crate when I remember, which isn't very often.

Asmael

Something to consider: ESO, like many other games, has copied most elements usually associated to Gacha games, which rely on attracting whales, which are players spending several thousands every month. What are those elements? To list some of them:

• A - Daily login rewards
• B - Limited "stamina"*
• C - Rewards and content limited to daily/weekly completion (group finder random dungeon, endeavors)
• D - Accessories and cosmetics locked behind lootboxes (crown crates)
• E - Virtual currency (crowns)
• F - Time limited cosmetics ("get it NOW before it's GONE, possibly FOREVER!")
• G - Ranking system for cosmetics (in ESO, Apex vs rare vs common... in gacha games, it's usually a star system, limited at 5*)

* ESO doesn't have a "stamina" system in place, but virtually all gacha games do (e.g: Resin in Genshin Impact), limiting how many times you can complete certain activities each day.

Points A, B and C all share the same goal: to incentivize players from logging into the game every single day. Points D and E are here to muddy the water as to how much you need to spend yo get something you want, usually cosmetics in ESO. Point F is here to push a sense of urgency unto players, a common tactic if you want to stop players from thinking. That last one is also common in internet scams ("send me money to that account within 48h, otherwise..."). Finally, G is here to capitalize on players' perceived superiority compared to others. Want to flex on other players? Bring that 400€/$ mount that they'll never be able to get. It might sound silly to brag about that, but it doesn't matter, what matters is that it of import to to the person buying them.

And that's the whole point. It has been implemented, because it brings in more money.

That system is designed to attract and retain whales, low spenders were never the point. You are not the target audience for those specific systems. Developers will keep putting those systems in place for as long as they make the most buck.

GreenhaloX

Yup.. ESO is a love and hate game. There is really no black and white or in-between. There are good things to love about the game and also many things to hate that cause you to bang your head, punch the cushion or just want to throw the game outta window. Ha ha

Alarde

I just stopped caring. Endeavors just complete by themselves without me even noticing, and writs... that i do only in my happiest days. Plenty of other ways for getting gold while having fun.

Danikat

I'm somewhat amused by the idea of someone at ZOS looking at my account and trying to work out what they're doing wrong. When I log in I'll collect the daily reward, often do crafting writs (on one character), do the endeavours, complete some quests and/or explore, and then on days in between when I have less time I'll just collect the login reward and do crafting writs...so it looks like some of their incentives are working. Then for no apparent reason I'll skip 3-4 days or a whole week, not just once or twice but multiple times per month...like I've suddenly lost interest in even the quickest tasks and can't be bothered to log in...but then I'll be back playing again.

I realise they won't look at individual players like that, but I know I'm not the only one with an erratic activity pattern like that and I suspect there's quite a few of us out there. If they look at the data in aggregate and notice the pattern I hope they remember to consider factors outside the game and don't assume the decision to play or not is entirely down to what they offer, otherwise they'll waste a lot of time trying to cram in these quick activities to appeal to people who don't need to be persuaded and cannot actually play more anyway.

In my case it's mainly because of my work and living away from my family. If I'm at home I'll log in and play at least briefly but I'm not home for even part of every day (I've just gotten back from a 10 day trip, which was 2 days longer than originally planned). Any attempt to make me log in every single day is absolutely useless because even I can't make that happen.

The amount of daily quests and things doesn't bother me because I usually ignore the vast majority of them and only do ones I actually want to do, but that means if they are being included as an incentive to log in every day that effort is being wasted on people like me because it won't make any difference and it would be better for ZOS to focus their efforts on other parts of the game which can be done whenever the player has time for it.

Slimebrow

I wish they would also trust the people who constantly bash the game too rather than ignore it completely. We just want to enjoy the game. But they just make it frustrating as all hell to even play at this point. I would rather them shut down the entire game for a year and work on it properly.

Right now I want to invest but there is soo much in this game that I feel like its lacking for an MMO/game that I just don't see the point in investing my time or money.

Ksariyu

I couldn't agree more here. It's something I've been thinking about myself. Time-gates and dailies/repeatables around every corner feel like they wear down a playerbase more than improve it.

The number of times I've been in guilds and asked for help with something, just to get, "Sorry I only have time for my dailies today," is disheartening. People aren't even able to play the actual game anymore because they've gotten so caught up in the chore list ZoS throws at them. I understand there needs to be something to keep players coming back, I just think the incentives are all wrong. Engaging content that feeds back into itself is what makes people invest in games.

I wish there were more activities that have some sort of impact on the game-world, that make you feel like your contributing to some larger community goal, even if you only play solo. That type of stuff keeps me coming back to an MMO far more than a handful of gold and a slightly different shade of blue for my boots.

DagenHawk

I hear what you're saying OP... personally the game is fun,(well at least it is to me and my small band of thieves) I appreciate most of the log in rewards...just because that they don't need to do it doesn't mean others don't like it... I mean it's not like anyone is forcing anyone, to claim items, do writs or participate in most of the things that was listed.

What you're speaking about, unless I'm mistaken is the GW business model, and that just didn't work as a sustainable business model, hence the current system in GW2, and honestly this system isn't broke as a valid business model, so why should Zenimax try to fix it?

Just my two rubles.

Hymzir

All the added incentives to keep me logging in everyday have had the reverse effect. I'm looking for entertainment here, not a checklist of chores to do each day.

I know I can ignore them, and that's what I end up doing when I do bother to log in. I do not have the time for that nonsense. At the same time I know that I am missing out. And it's not just FOMO (though the game tires to lever that too against you at every damn possible corner.) it's actual missing out on stuff. Especially on Endeavors. That is the only real ingame way to get furnishings from crates. Sure you can try to buy crates with gold but... But there's always a risk involved. You gotta hope the other party will actually gift the stuff, and not just scam you out of your gold.

Same is true for events as well. It's a time limited chance to get some new shiny or another, and if you do not do the daily tasks... Well no shiny for you. Of course, the thing with those is, that there are so many of them, and so frequently too, that I don't care about the shinies anymore. I have dozens of cosmetics gathering dust already. I am not really in need of new ones. And since I stopped caring about the "Gotta catch them all!" garbage years ago, it's ever easier to just ignore the latest shiny.

And then there are writs - it is the most efficient way to get gold and mats. It just is. There is a reason why it is invariably brought up as the answer in all the "How do I make gold in this game?" threads. But it isn't entertaining. And after years of trudging through them, I just can't stand them anymore. Even with all the addons that automate the slog, it still takes about 5 minutes per character. With the load times included, and the invariable random happening that requires your attention for a moment, means doing them on 10 characters will take over an hour off your evening.

And when you got like three hours of leisure time to spend each evening, that is a lot to ask. Sure you can do other stuff with that hour, and I invariably do so these days. But from pure time invested/rewards gained angle, I really should just do those damn writs each day.

And that's why most evenings I end up choosing not to logon at all.

-sigh-

Look, I don't have any deep or insightful thing to add here. It's way too complicated issue, and the accepted wisdom is that MMOs require such time wasting tactics to maximize player retention and thus profits. I don't think that is necessarily true, that a more flexible system that actually respects the players time invested, might end up performing fiscally much better in the long run. I also realize that ZOS is not inclined to start experimenting with the issue. They are here to make money first and foremost, and are not looking to rock the boat.

All I can say, is that all these added incentives and rewards, and bonuses and daily bribes, have had the exact opposite effect. I am less inclined to play each day, since I know there is a huge checklist of daily chores waiting for me each time I do so. Thus I choose to invest both my time and money on products where I know my time invested will yield both entertainment and ingame rewards. With ESO I have to choose between the two.

Syrpynt

Asmael wrote: »

Something to consider: ESO, like many other games, has copied most elements usually associated to Gacha games, which rely on attracting whales, which are players spending several thousands every month. What are those elements? To list some of them:

• A - Daily login rewards
• B - Limited "stamina"*
• C - Rewards and content limited to daily/weekly completion (group finder random dungeon, endeavors)
• D - Accessories and cosmetics locked behind lootboxes (crown crates)
• E - Virtual currency (crowns)
• F - Time limited cosmetics ("get it NOW before it's GONE, possibly FOREVER!")
• G - Ranking system for cosmetics (in ESO, Apex vs rare vs common... in gacha games, it's usually a star system, limited at 5*)

* ESO doesn't have a "stamina" system in place, but virtually all gacha games do (e.g: Resin in Genshin Impact), limiting how many times you can complete certain activities each day.

Points A, B and C all share the same goal: to incentivize players from logging into the game every single day. Points D and E are here to muddy the water as to how much you need to spend yo get something you want, usually cosmetics in ESO. Point F is here to push a sense of urgency unto players, a common tactic if you want to stop players from thinking. That last one is also common in internet scams ("send me money to that account within 48h, otherwise..."). Finally, G is here to capitalize on players' perceived superiority compared to others. Want to flex on other players? Bring that 400€/$ mount that they'll never be able to get. It might sound silly to brag about that, but it doesn't matter, what matters is that it of import to to the person buying them.

And that's the whole point. It has been implemented, because it brings in more money.

That system is designed to attract and retain whales, low spenders were never the point. You are not the target audience for those specific systems. Developers will keep putting those systems in place for as long as they make the most buck.

Can we sticky this? lol


Anyway
I stopped playing main questlines during the week and stuff, I simply get my daily+weekly endeavor seals (because I'd prefer to pay directly for items in the store, but I'd grind for them and not pay ZoS if they make the only other option Crown Crates).

I'm hardly consistent with keeping up with all the daily endeavors, but I've got like 4,300 since June. Maybe I'll have enough for one of the old shiney radiant mounts by the Holidays that I've always wanted (but will never pay for crates)--ZoS could have just took my money for direct purchase--but I'm not a whale, so I can shove-off I guess. \o/

My advice for a game this absolutely massive:
You can kill yourself over doing everything in the game all the time--making 18 characters like the other guy in this thread, and do writs and daily dungeons and quests and BG's and whatever--or you can figure out the only the things you like and just do/get those things instead of spreading yourself too thin. Occasionally you can step out of your comfort zone and try other stuff, and ignore toxic player feedback in chat because it's a game at the end of the day, not gonna pay bills or fix your broken relationships in real life. XD

Wandering_Immigrant

I'm not understanding what people are asking for here. Do you want for them to offer lesser rewards for these activities so you feel less compelled to do them? Do you want for them to remove daily activities from the game and thereby remove the rewards? Or do you just want all potential rewards automatically inserted into your mailbox every day after having done the activity once? Not trying to sound flippant or anything, I just really don't get the end-goal with this issue. I'm especially confused by the people who say they log in less frequently due to this issue. If you're not logging in you're forfeiting the reward for that day, so clearly you're ok with skipping a day, how is that different than logging in and skipping the things you don't want to have to do in favor the activities you do want to do.

I know you say you don't want to hear "just don't do them", but the fact is you do them because you find the time and effort vs reward to be worthwhile. If you didn't you wouldn't bother. It's why you do some and not others. But what do you really miss out on by not doing most of these? A little gold? Maybe an achievement takes a little longer to achieve? The only thing that's truly time sensitive is event tickets, and to a lesser degree endeavors since crates are seasonal. Everything else is just fluff, it's accumulation of things that if you don't get today, will be there again tomorrow.

I too have a list of things I can do every day, and every day I do some of those things. Which ones and how many of them I do each day depends on what I want to do that day and is entirely up to me.