Crit Damage Cap

merpins

So you start at 50%, and now it's capped at 125%. Isn't that higher than what you can currently get, or am I missing something?

Narvuntien

*sigh* My 1 shot stealth ganker nerfed again.

I noticed in pervious PTS that I didn't appear to be getting all my Crit damage buffs I should be getting I suspect they are working now but I am going to have to find a new set *throws Archer's mind in the bin*

karekiz

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I_3gZ_osz58&ab_channel=SkinnyCheeks

4:38 is a nice viewing of Crit Dmg modifiers and how much you can in total gain. Looks like he guess 150% for cap and its 125% - Not too far off.

temerley

Finesse, backstabber, ec, brittle, khajiit, major/minor force, etc. Bruh what you talking about? It goes waaaay over that

RandomKodiak

Khajiits will probably be able to ditch any form of major force, and builds with Harpooners will possibly be able to as well while still hitting cap, allowing for a better damage ability and being able to stay at range and not do the Hokey Pokey dance.

MashmalloMan

My understanding, like penetration/armor is that you can still build higher for it in a pvp environment to counter a players crit resist. We all start with -20% crit damage taken, so if you wanted to do 125% crit damage, bare minimum you would want to have +95% crit damage (145%).. not +75% (125%).

Note that this value can go beyond 125% but your Critical Strikes will not deal more than 125% damage or healing in total.

Grandchamp1989

Base 50% crit dmg
major force 20% (also integrated dummy buff)
minor force 10%
Backstabber 15%
Fighting finesse 10%
Brittle 10% (also integrated dummy debuff)
Piercing Spear (Templar) 10% /or Khajiit passive (12% - overcap) /or Hemorrhage 10% (Nightblade - Added)
= 125

Other:

Shadow Mundus 11 - 19% (added)
Medium Armor up to 14% (added)
Catalyst 15% (added)
Harpooner's Wading Kilt 10% (Sure am glad I farmed this thing now... not)


Am I missing any?

I guess for some builds apprentice/warrior might be superior?

danno8

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Base 50% crit dmg
major force 20%
minor force 10%
Backstabber 15%
Fighting finesse 10%
Brittle 10%
Piercing Spear (Templar) 10% / Khajiit passive / Harpoon
= 125

Am I missing any?

Mundus
Medium Armour bonuses
Axes

Grandchamp1989

danno8 wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Base 50% crit dmg
major force 20%
minor force 10%
Backstabber 15%
Fighting finesse 10%
Brittle 10%
Piercing Spear (Templar) 10% / Khajiit passive / Harpoon
= 125

Am I missing any?

Mundus
Medium Armour bonuses

Yeah you're right with medium... Medium armor will be "punished" from higher cap with this from the looks of it.

Dalsinthus

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Base 50% crit dmg
major force 20%
minor force 10%
Backstabber 15%
Fighting finesse 10%
Brittle 10%
Piercing Spear (Templar) 10% / Khajiit passive / Harpoon
= 125

Other: Shadow Mundus 11 - 19%


Am I missing any?

I guess for some builds apprentice/warrior might be superior?

Nightblade Hemorage 10%

It be pretty easy to hit the cap.

Dagoth_Rac

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Base 50% crit dmg
major force 20%
minor force 10%
Backstabber 15%
Fighting finesse 10%
Brittle 10%
Piercing Spear (Templar) 10% /or Khajiit passive /or Harpoon
= 125

Other: Shadow Mundus 11 - 19%


Am I missing any?

I guess for some builds apprentice/warrior might be superior?

While there are some conditions, Catalyst set is basically 15% crit damage for group.

Grandchamp1989

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Base 50% crit dmg
major force 20%
minor force 10%
Backstabber 15%
Fighting finesse 10%
Brittle 10%
Piercing Spear (Templar) 10% /or Khajiit passive /or Harpoon
= 125

Other: Shadow Mundus 11 - 19%


Am I missing any?

I guess for some builds apprentice/warrior might be superior?

While there are some conditions, Catalyst set is basically 15% crit damage for group.

I guess catalyst is a dead set now?

Sordidfairytale

A couple more Crit Damage Sets aside from Archer's Mind. There may be more, but I can't recall.

Senche's Bite
(2 items) Adds 129 Stamina Recovery
(3 items) Adds 657 Weapon Critical
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Stamina
(5 items) Whenever you successfully Dodge, increase your Critical Damage and Critical Healing by 15% for 10 seconds.

True-Sworn Fury
(2 items) Adds 657 Spell Critical
(3 items) Adds 129 Spell Damage
(4 items) Adds 1096 Maximum Magicka
(5 items) Adds 708 Spell Critical and increases your Critical Damage by 4%. While in combat, this bonus doubles to 1416 Spell Critical and 8% increased Critical Damage when you are under 75% Health. While in combat this bonus quadruples to 2832 Spell Critical and 16% increased Critical Damage when you are under 50% Health.

PrinceShroob

I'm upset at this change. My Shadowscale gets 135% Critical Damage with all buffs up, so this effectively means he needs to switch to Thief and destroys the roleplay.

Base 50% more damage than a regular hit
Khajiit: 12%
Shadow in 7 divines: 17%
Major Force: 20%
Minor Force: 10%
Minor Brittle: 10%
Elemental Catalyst: 5% per weakness
Backstabber: 15%
Fighting Finesse: 10%
Harpooner's Wading Kilt: 10%
Nightblade's Hemorrhage passive: 10%

With Major and Minor Force, Backstabber, and Fighting Finesse, you hit 105%. Khajiit pushes you to 117%. Khajiit Nightblade goes over the cap without even doing anything other than the most basic buffs.

This is basically a nerf to Khajiit without being written in so many words. It also sets a worrying trend of destroying many support sets DPS would wear, partially invalidates a new Mythic item many went mad farming for, and tanks Brittle builds after they tried to make frost mages more viable and introduced "on-demand Brittle" last patch.

Who cares if groups do high damage? Maybe come up with a more engaging mechanic than "the boss has 20 million health and any mistake instantly kills you" like with Lady Thorn (the hard mode for the first boss in Red Petal Bastion has 12 million health! Kjalnar's hard mode had 9 million, and he was the final boss!) and groups won't try to burn through your content...

Grandchamp1989

PrinceShroob wrote: »

I'm upset at this change. My Shadowscale gets 135% Critical Damage with all buffs up, so this effectively means he needs to switch to Thief and destroys the roleplay.

Base 50% more damage than a regular hit
Khajiit: 12%
Shadow in 7 divines: 17%
Major Force: 20%
Minor Force: 10%
Minor Brittle: 10%
Elemental Catalyst: 5% per weakness
Backstabber: 15%
Fighting Finesse: 10%
Harpooner's Wading Kilt: 10%
Nightblade's Hemorrhage passive: 10%

With Major and Minor Force, Backstabber, and Fighting Finesse, you hit 105%. Khajiit pushes you to 117%. Khajiit Nightblade goes over the cap without even doing anything other than the most basic buffs.

This is basically a nerf to Khajiit without being written in so many words. It also sets a worrying trend of destroying many support sets DPS would wear, partially invalidates a new Mythic item many went mad farming for, and tanks Brittle builds after they tried to make frost mages more viable and introduced "on-demand Brittle" last patch.

Who cares if groups do high damage? Maybe come up with a more engaging mechanic than "the boss has 20 million health and any mistake instantly kills you" like with Lady Thorn (the hard mode for the first boss in Red Petal Bastion has 12 million health! Kjalnar's hard mode had 9 million, and he was the final boss!) and groups won't try to burn through your content...

Pretty much, good analyses. We don't have much wiggle room from the looks of it.

MudcrabAttack

50% base
10% minor force
20% major force
10% brittle
10% kilt
15% EC
4% medium armor (because mage meta)

This adds up to 119 and would basically be present in mage trials, swap CP, leave the rest same as always

Magblade magplar can fill an extra 6% crit damage from passives

Stamblade, stamplar can … whatever, it doesn’t really matter, it’s a loss no matter how they dress it. Seriously, don’t use assassins scourge now? To get that extra 5%… And what cp even comes close to backstabber?

Sordidfairytale

It will be interesting if Brittle counts towards cap since it's on the target side. However:

Base: 50%
Major Force: 20%
Minor Force: 10%
Khajit: 12%
FIghting Finesse: 10%
Backstabber: 15%
Medium Armor: 14%
Minor Brittle: 10%
Sul-Xan's Torment: 12%
Shadow Mundus: 18%
2h Axe: 12%
Malacath's Band of Brutatlity: -50%

Crit Damage Total 123%

K9002

But brittle and EC are increasing the damage taken by enemies, not specific players' outgoing crit damage. There should be some clarification whether they count against the cap or not, because IMO they shouldn't. Enemies reduced to zero armor through a combination of debuffs and penetration can still take 15% more damage if they're afflicted with minor/major vulnerability and up to 10% more fire damage with engulfing flames. Brittle and EC should work the same way, so the maximum achievable crit damage would be 150% in coordinated groups.

kojou

Why not drop Fighting Finesse or Backstabber or both and take other CP passives?

Trixterion

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Base 50% crit dmg
Brittle 10% (also integrated dummy debuff)
Catalyst 15% (added)


Am I missing any?

I guess for some builds apprentice/warrior might be superior?

I may be wrong, but the CRIT CAP will be introduced as Critical damage done, while these two are considered as critical damage taken(as well as unique Warden debuff only he gets[additional 10% critical damage taken by target if it's already under Brittle]) though they should not count towards the CAP

CyberOnEso

I made a calculator that may help with the critical damage cap calculations: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18hrFFvAVNHpAIJm0JcnDD2hRVXMS0uZe3rpWC4Divmw/

merpins

Trixterion wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Base 50% crit dmg
Brittle 10% (also integrated dummy debuff)
Catalyst 15% (added)


Am I missing any?

I guess for some builds apprentice/warrior might be superior?

I may be wrong, but the CRIT CAP will be introduced as Critical damage done, while these two are considered as critical damage taken(as well as unique Warden debuff only he gets[additional 10% critical damage taken by target if it's already under Brittle]) though they should not count towards the CAP

At the very least, that sounds pretty accurate. I wouldn't wager it to be correct, but it should be based on how everything works imo

Sordidfairytale

CyberOnEso wrote: »

I made a calculator that may help with the critical damage cap calculations: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18hrFFvAVNHpAIJm0JcnDD2hRVXMS0uZe3rpWC4Divmw/

Great calculator. Thanks for sharing. What if I want to add sets to this like Malacath's Band of Brutality or Sul-Xan?

CyberOnEso

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

CyberOnEso wrote: »

I made a calculator that may help with the critical damage cap calculations: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18hrFFvAVNHpAIJm0JcnDD2hRVXMS0uZe3rpWC4Divmw/

Great calculator. Thanks for sharing. What if I want to add sets to this like Malacath's Band of Brutality or Sul-Xan?

Hey'a, thank you very much! I added Sul- Xan and Malacath's Band of Brutality.

If you want to see how it works just look in the 'data' sheet.

Sordidfairytale

CyberOnEso wrote: »

Sordidfairytale wrote: »

CyberOnEso wrote: »

I made a calculator that may help with the critical damage cap calculations: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/18hrFFvAVNHpAIJm0JcnDD2hRVXMS0uZe3rpWC4Divmw/

Great calculator. Thanks for sharing. What if I want to add sets to this like Malacath's Band of Brutality or Sul-Xan?

Hey'a, thank you very much! I added Sul- Xan and Malacath's Band of Brutality.

If you want to see how it works just look in the 'data' sheet.

Awesome thanks again! I shared it with my guild, I'll see if I have anything on the EU server I can send your way as way of thanks.

YandereGirlfriend

MashmalloMan wrote: »

My understanding, like penetration/armor is that you can still build higher for it in a pvp environment to counter a players crit resist. We all start with -20% crit damage taken, so if you wanted to do 125% crit damage, bare minimum you would want to have +95% crit damage (145%).. not +75% (125%).

Note that this value can go beyond 125% but your Critical Strikes will not deal more than 125% damage or healing in total.

This is an extremely incisive observation. Though it'll need to be tested in order to make sure.

Do you know if Critical Damage debuffs are handled any differently than Critical Damage buffs? I know that the situation is not analogous to the Damage Done and Damage Taken mods since all of the Critical Damage mods stack additively with each other, but it seems like testing the behavior of the debuffs might be worthwhile just in case they somehow manage to evade the cap.

I suppose that it relates to your original point which is about identifying where the cap comes into play inside of the overall damage calculation.

Everest_Lionheart

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Dagoth_Rac wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Base 50% crit dmg
major force 20%
minor force 10%
Backstabber 15%
Fighting finesse 10%
Brittle 10%
Piercing Spear (Templar) 10% /or Khajiit passive /or Harpoon
= 125

Other: Shadow Mundus 11 - 19%


Am I missing any?

I guess for some builds apprentice/warrior might be superior?

While there are some conditions, Catalyst set is basically 15% crit damage for group.

I guess catalyst is a dead set now?

Looks like my hybrid Khajiit Stamden wearing. EC and Rele just took a hit with the nerf hammer. I guess I drop backstabber, trap and fighting finesse from the build now.

Shepoffire

PrinceShroob wrote: »

I'm upset at this change. My Shadowscale gets 135% Critical Damage with all buffs up, so this effectively means he needs to switch to Thief and destroys the roleplay.

You already destroyed your role play by using a khajiit as a shadowscale

PrinceShroob

Shepoffire wrote: »

You already destroyed your role play by using a khajiit as a shadowscale

My Shadowscale isn't a Khajiit, he's an Argonian, as you'd expect. I've considered making a Khajiit to both parse higher and to pay tribute to my aging pet cat, but since a Khajiit would just end up indirectly getting nerfed by a critical damage cap, and be a strictly better version of the earlier Shadowscale, I'd be left with a difficult choice: to fundamentally destroy a character I've put a lot of time into by throughly usurping him, or to make an imperfect tribute to an animal I love dearly, as I know the character would perform better as a Racist Elf.

neferpitou73

As someone who recommended this change last patch for pvp I'm happy ZOS went with it.

I'm not sure why they decided to do it for PvE though. I know they want to reduce power creep but from a pure enjoyment of the game standpoint, I've never heard anyone utter the words "my DPS is too high, please nerf" so I'm not sure why they feel that it is necessary.

PrinceShroob

neferpitou73 wrote: »

As someone who recommended this change last patch for pvp I'm happy ZOS went with it.

I'm not sure why they decided to do it for PvE though. I know they want to reduce power creep but from a pure enjoyment of the game standpoint, I've never heard anyone utter the words "my DPS is too high, please nerf" so I'm not sure why they feel that it is necessary.

The developers cry that DPS is too high yet continue to release bosses with millions of health and no change in mechanics from start to finish. Beating on a boss for ten minutes while serenaded by Lucilla Caprenia's flat, amateurish voice acting and constantly dying because you had the audacity to Touch a Mechanic Once has all the tension and excitement of being stuck in traffic.

Oh, and let's not forget introducing Minor Brittle and Elemental Catalyst last year, then Backstabber and Fighting Finesse this year, and then having the nerve to say that Critical Damage shouldn't "continue experiencing power creep as we add more options to build for it in the future," as though Brittle and Catalyst somehow sprung up overnight without them noticing.