Ball Groups Are Now Consistently Beatable

MadeInVN

Abyssmol wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

I play a healer, Stamden healer to be precise.


Last night I ran with Dark Convergence on, and no damaging or CC abilities (I rarely slot damage anyways). I was able to deal extreme damage to other groups using only Corrupting pollen. This was while healing my group and providing buffs.

I am not built to be a DPS, I am very firmly a Healer/Support build and now because I slotted 5 peices of gear, I have the potential to wipe entire groups.

Its busted as hell!

Let's be real here. You're arguing for a nerf because you and your group are getting kill by the set. It's not that you are killing so many players! You know what's busted as hell? "Coordinated" groups taking a keep without attempting to fight anyone, getting the scroll, and just staying in the keep farming players. That's not pvp; it's not the objective of Cyrodiil. They stay in the keep because they know they can't be killed. That my friend is busted! This happens almost every night EP Xbox NA. With the new sets, hopefully, these groups would have to play the way the game was intended or die. That is balance to me!

I hope everyone starts using this sets!!!

Well that would be great and all, except im in a ball group.

You think this isn't a buff to us? There is no change in strategy to be made for us, because we implemented our changes on patch day. Yes we occasionally die to these sets, but we get way way more kills from them in comparison.

Then if you think these sets are a buff for your group, why are you complaining? Let me give you an scenario. I have tried to engage these un-killable groups before from far. The moment I have gotten close, as usual, I I get immobilized and 12 players pounce on me. I die! I play a Templar, no stealth, no bomb. The only thing I can do is stay away.

In the mean time, these groups are spamming heals and purge. Yes spamming purge every two seconds or so.
I know this because when I use the Templar beam and lightning heave attack from far, both attacks are cancelled every time. Now we have a set (plaguebreak) that would stop the purge spamming and that is great!! I can tell you right now that as soon as the update gets to xBox, I will be getting this set and spam the [snip] out of it at "Coordinated" groups. Balanced!

I actually don’t get this mindset, and I’m a solo PvPer/smallscaler who dislikes playing in large groups.

My group of 4 players cannot take on a 30 man zerg like those 12-man ballgroups. But we can take on a group of 12 random pugs because we share the same fundamentals of group play. Both coordinated smallscale and largescale groups can take on uncoordinated groups twice as large as theirs. This isn’t something “broken”. It’s using teamwork to fight larger numbers.

What’s broken is allowing one set to completely bypass game balance and basically handhold players through everything. Why should random pugs be able to kill coordinated groups? They aren’t in comms, they aren’t using strategies, and they most definitely aren’t coordinated.

[edited to remove quote]

neferpitou73

MadeInVN wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

I play a healer, Stamden healer to be precise.


Last night I ran with Dark Convergence on, and no damaging or CC abilities (I rarely slot damage anyways). I was able to deal extreme damage to other groups using only Corrupting pollen. This was while healing my group and providing buffs.

I am not built to be a DPS, I am very firmly a Healer/Support build and now because I slotted 5 peices of gear, I have the potential to wipe entire groups.

Its busted as hell!

Let's be real here. You're arguing for a nerf because you and your group are getting kill by the set. It's not that you are killing so many players! You know what's busted as hell? "Coordinated" groups taking a keep without attempting to fight anyone, getting the scroll, and just staying in the keep farming players. That's not pvp; it's not the objective of Cyrodiil. They stay in the keep because they know they can't be killed. That my friend is busted! This happens almost every night EP Xbox NA. With the new sets, hopefully, these groups would have to play the way the game was intended or die. That is balance to me!

I hope everyone starts using this sets!!!

Well that would be great and all, except im in a ball group.

You think this isn't a buff to us? There is no change in strategy to be made for us, because we implemented our changes on patch day. Yes we occasionally die to these sets, but we get way way more kills from them in comparison.

Then if you think these sets are a buff for your group, why are you complaining? Let me give you an scenario. I have tried to engage these un-killable groups before from far. The moment I have gotten close, as usual, I I get immobilized and 12 players pounce on me. I die! I play a Templar, no stealth, no bomb. The only thing I can do is stay away.

In the mean time, these groups are spamming heals and purge. Yes spamming purge every two seconds or so.
I know this because when I use the Templar beam and lightning heave attack from far, both attacks are cancelled every time. Now we have a set (plaguebreak) that would stop the purge spamming and that is great!! I can tell you right now that as soon as the update gets to xBox, I will be getting this set and spam the *** out of it at "Coordinated" groups. Balanced!

I actually don’t get this mindset, and I’m a solo PvPer/smallscaler who dislikes playing in large groups.

My group of 4 players cannot take on a 30 man zerg like those 12-man ballgroups. But we can take on a group of 12 random pugs because we share the same fundamentals of group play. Both coordinated smallscale and largescale groups can take on uncoordinated groups twice as large as theirs. This isn’t something “broken”. It’s using teamwork to fight larger numbers.

What’s broken is allowing one set to completely bypass game balance and basically handhold players through everything. Why should random pugs be able to kill coordinated groups? They aren’t in comms, they aren’t using strategies, and they most definitely aren’t coordinated.

Yeah never got this mindset either. In the large-scale PvP zone coordinated organized groups can out-fight a mob of randos? Shocker.

Rossmann

I believe, point of new sets are fighting ball groups more effectively.

Yes, ball groups can also use these sets, but either way others gonna die and now they have a counter play for ball groups.

I don't understand why people call them broken when both side can use these and i think it is way more effective on ball groups cause they have to move coordinated unlike solo-small scalers.

Aforementioned complaints mostly from ball group members who want to keep their status quo.

Good job, ZOS, finally a way to fight ball groups, much appreciated.

biminirwb17_ESO

I have noticed on NA PC GH that ballgroups are nowhere near as effective as they used to be. They have done the usual go to Sej, Nik, Bleaks, to farm between factions and failed.

They have tried to pvdoor Arrius, Faregyl and Glade and failed. No more running around in a keep for ages, no more backdooring someone elses fight.

In fact all the old tactics are failing. So farming on alessia bridge seems to be the last resort. (long ride for DC to wipe)

Sure they will adapt but their Necro rez ults are getting a workout.

theCampeR_

I was one of the people who was very skeptical of these sets, thinking they will further empower ballgroups. But boy was I wrong. Ballgroups are dying left and right to these sets and its amazing. Yes they are also using these sets but let's be realistic, They are gonna stack heals and purges either way and use VD procs to steamroll randoms either way because people can't break free from the lag they cause. Regardless of these sets being used by them or not, randoms had no chance unless they were countered by another ballgroup. NOT ANYMORE. [snip] So yeah, great change.

[edited for baiting]

Stx

"I don't understand why people call them broken"

Just compare them to literally any other proc set in the game. The damage is overtuned, the proc conditions are very easy to meet, and in the case of dark convergence, the additional effects are so numerous that if it were properly balanced the damage would be greatly reduced.

Kwoung

I think people here have a very loose definition of "ball group". On PCNA GH, I can only think of one group that still runs by my definition, there are however numerous semi to coordinated groups, which are far from "ball status", but are generally still able to take on larger forces than themselves most of the time, simply due to the fact that they use even mediocre coordination, tactic and comms.

I also don't get folks thinking that Dark Convergence was made to combat ball groups, as the patch notes literally say the exact opposite of that.

As for DC, it really only works on people stacking and I get out of it alive more times than not, now that I know what to look for and how it works... and most people using wasting it on single targets and not aiming at clumps of players as they could/should be. I am probably getting killed by it at about the same rate now as I was getting killed by chain bombers in the previous patch, which like the chain bombers, wasn't from a single attack hitting me, it is a series of unfortunate events usually... like getting pulled by DC at the same time a cold fire or some other stuff landed on that same spot to increase my damage taken to the point where I am screwed.

All that said, getting or pulling folks off walls with it, needs to be fixed if they do not want the gameplay going that direction. I am doing the same attacks I always did against folks on walls... Daedric Mines or Volcanic Rune and some other skills, but now instead of simply immobilizing/stunning players up there, it is blowing them off the wall. Now I actually like this and feel it should be expanded upon, but that is not how it is supposed to work and if it does, then chains and other pull skills should work the same as well, to make standing on the edge of the wall and spamming poison arrow or whatever a truly dangerous thing to do.

Lapin_Logic

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Small (2-4) and large (4+) groups of tightly packed players are finally more consistently beatable. Even fair fights of 4on4 and similar engagements seem to be reaching a conclusion rather than stalemating for eons before a lucky burst, third party attacker, or bug ends it. The game play has drastically improved and it seems to be largely due to the three new pvp sets.

These sets are getting a lot of complaints, mainly because whenever something is effective and changes the way a game flows - people who are used to older game play get riled up. You’ll notice that if a new set is introduced on the PTS: if it is effective the masses will rally to get it nerfed into mediocrity before it hits live so that they can maintain their status quo gameplay and not have to adapt to something new.

These three new sets are undeniably effective. They drastically improve pvp flow in my opinion. And they all do the same thing, punish people for being near each other even if it’s just 2 people.

The game has finally incentivized spreading out, and rather than adapt; people want to go back to something brain dead and comfortable (balling up and paying no attention to teammate spread).

I personally love the new sets and improved flow of combat.

Firstly "2" people isn't a "Ball Group by any stretch of the imagination, neither is 4
Secondly, it is called the "Alliance war" not Rambo's Quest
Third, these sets do not stop ball groups (30+) because No CP is No Proc, so this is in no way a fix, it is an ill conceived and poorly implemented attempt to balance the game or balance a solo player running into an army. (an improved group finder and map icons would help that) but no game should let one man take on and kill 30 in one go and walk away, that is madness not balance.

Kwoung

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

Small (2-4) and large (4+) groups of tightly packed players are finally more consistently beatable. Even fair fights of 4on4 and similar engagements seem to be reaching a conclusion rather than stalemating for eons before a lucky burst, third party attacker, or bug ends it. The game play has drastically improved and it seems to be largely due to the three new pvp sets.

These sets are getting a lot of complaints, mainly because whenever something is effective and changes the way a game flows - people who are used to older game play get riled up. You’ll notice that if a new set is introduced on the PTS: if it is effective the masses will rally to get it nerfed into mediocrity before it hits live so that they can maintain their status quo gameplay and not have to adapt to something new.

These three new sets are undeniably effective. They drastically improve pvp flow in my opinion. And they all do the same thing, punish people for being near each other even if it’s just 2 people.

The game has finally incentivized spreading out, and rather than adapt; people want to go back to something brain dead and comfortable (balling up and paying no attention to teammate spread).

I personally love the new sets and improved flow of combat.

Firstly "2" people isn't a "Ball Group by any stretch of the imagination, neither is 4
Secondly, it is called the "Alliance war" not Rambo's Quest
Third, these sets do not stop ball groups (30+) because No CP is No Proc, so this is in no way a fix, it is an ill conceived and poorly implemented attempt to balance the game or balance a solo player running into an army. (an improved group finder and map icons would help that) but no game should let one man take on and kill 30 in one go and walk away, that is madness not balance.

Well actually, 30+ is not a ball group either, that's a zerg. A ball group is 12 players, maybe 10 or 11 if there is a no show or two and no replacements that night, but generally in that case, they don't run, so pretty much 12 players... one group.

Hexquisite

I think people are calling the zergs, ball groups.
Then again, this guy once told my 5 man that we were the worst ballgroup ever, that we didn't even run puge or proxy..

The Ballgroups I watch stream, are still decimating people.

Kwoung

Hexquisite wrote: »

I think people are calling the zergs, ball groups.
Then again, this guy once told my 5 man that we were the worst ballgroup ever, that we didn't even run puge or proxy.

The Ballgroups I watch stream, are still decimating people.

Ya, I have gotten salty tells about us sucking as a 3 person ball group, some people are just clueless noobs and latch on to whatever the word of the day is. It actually makes feedback here completely useless, as people don't even use the correct terms to describe things. From the above posts, I can only assume that these people are happy to see zergs dying, which has absolutely nothing to do with ball groups, other than the fact they keep calling zergs ball groups.

Lapin_Logic

Hexquisite wrote: »

I think people are calling the zergs, ball groups.
Then again, this guy once told my 5 man that we were the worst ballgroup ever, that we didn't even run puge or proxy.

The Ballgroups I watch stream, are still decimating people.

I see your point but I believe the proper parlance and colloquium is "zerg" = randoms following the herd.
"ball group" = usually pre made and optimised, also there is no limit to how many pre made groups are running together and communicating on Discord, pretty sure Fengrush can attest to 30 man ball groups stream sniping.

mocap

nope.
PC/EU, Project Nova. Consistently competely unbeatable. They still can take a scroll and melt another keep while rolling around with that scroll taking a lot of damage from 9000 fire balistas and 9000k zerg players. Their HP usually doesn't fall below 50%. Also they generating TON of lag, disconnects, broken skills/bar swap even sprint button, slow mo bug, foreva stuck in combat bug.

By the way, this is not a complaint, just a dry facts.

relentless_turnip

Lapin_Logic wrote: »

Hexquisite wrote: »

I think people are calling the zergs, ball groups.
Then again, this guy once told my 5 man that we were the worst ballgroup ever, that we didn't even run puge or proxy.

The Ballgroups I watch stream, are still decimating people.

I see your point but I believe the proper parlance and colloquium is "zerg" = randoms following the herd.
"ball group" = usually pre made and optimised, also there is no limit to how many pre made groups are running together and communicating on Discord, pretty sure Fengrush can attest to 30 man ball groups stream sniping.

There aren't 30 man ball groups, the term "ballgroup" is actually a very specific group dynamic. They have dedicated roles and pre designated gear setups. You are describing a zerg.
I watch fengrush fairly frequently, he often gets stream sniped by small groups of nightblades. His group often decimates zergs. He used to do this daily until zos completely broke the game in February 2020. It worked semi consistently before that. They are an "organised small scale".

Thraben

mocap wrote: »

nope.
Consistently competely unbeatable.
By the way, this is not a complaint, just a dry facts.

Read this https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/557515/ball-breaker-groups-heh/p1. Act on it. Problem solved. I assume Inevitable Deto spam does not work any longer too well, but Frozen Gate will.

Ball Groups are only strong BECAUSE you outnumber them. As long as you try to zerg them down, you play right into their hands.

EF321

I have problem with dark convergence where it can pull you off the wall. I don't think anything was ever able to,
since pulls don't have the range, but people seem to be placing their ground stuff just on the edge and you get dragged down.

mocap

Thraben wrote: »

Read this https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/557515/ball-breaker-groups-heh/p1. Act on it. Problem solved. I assume Inevitable Deto spam does not work any longer too well, but Frozen Gate will.

this is very good theorycrafting, on practice, however, ballgroup just run to their dead mate and res him in no time. All that things just annoy them like Volcanic Orb exploit, when player pulls into air and stuck there.

Sometimes they die... after hours of countless kills and im not even sure - they die cuz somehow opposite players indeed kills em, or they just got bored and want to wipe to go another place...

upd: zerg almost never can kill pro ball like Nova or Fist (PC/EU). That groups mostly die cuz of another ball is hiding in zerg and do real stuff, not just pew pew (though zerg pew pew helps a lot).

divnyi

relentless_turnip wrote: »

They are an "organised small scale".

By small-scale people generally mean <6 players. Ball groups go above 10.

relentless_turnip

divnyi wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

They are an "organised small scale".

By small-scale people generally mean <6 players. Ball groups go above 10.

I think the best distinguishing difference is a ballgroup is pre designed, with specific gear, skills, roles and add ons. Small scale groups tend to make use of whatever builds are available in their group. Both would coordinate via voice chat for efficiency, but small scales don't necessarily have roles, but would coordinate movement and burst like a ballgroup.

You could for example probably have a 6 man ball group and adversely a 10 man small scale group fighting a zerg of 20+. Though both are uncommon and unlikely. Generally the numbers you said would ring true. What I'm saying is the group composition is the greatest defining factor between group types.

Thraben

mocap wrote: »

upd: zerg almost never can kill pro ball like Nova or Fist (PC/EU). That groups mostly die cuz of another ball is hiding in zerg and do real stuff, not just pew pew (though zerg pew pew helps a lot).

You got a pm. I cannot be more specific without naming and shaming.

neferpitou73

Stx wrote: »

"I don't understand why people call them broken"

Just compare them to literally any other proc set in the game. The damage is overtuned, the proc conditions are very easy to meet, and in the case of dark convergence, the additional effects are so numerous that if it were properly balanced the damage would be greatly reduced.

Let's not ignore the fact that two of them are the sole exceptions to the CC immunity in this game

Kwoung

relentless_turnip wrote: »

divnyi wrote: »

relentless_turnip wrote: »

They are an "organised small scale".

By small-scale people generally mean <6 players. Ball groups go above 10.

I think the best distinguishing difference is a ballgroup is pre designed, with specific gear, skills, roles and add ons. Small scale groups tend to make use of whatever builds are available in their group. Both would coordinate via voice chat for efficiency, but small scales don't necessarily have roles, but would coordinate movement and burst like a ballgroup.

You could for example probably have a 6 man ball group and adversely a 10 man small scale group fighting a zerg of 20+. Though both are uncommon and unlikely. Generally the numbers you said would ring true. What I'm saying is the group composition is the greatest defining factor between group types.

I could be wrong, but you can not make a ball group with only 6 people. It was a struggle enough when they cut group size to 12. With 6 you would be missing too many components to be considered a ball group.

mikey_reach

I love the chaos in cyro im ok with this patch. I mean ive played every month and since release my only 2 major complaints have been og sloads and necro bash build.

sabresandiego_ESO

PVP has never been better. This is the first patch where clumping together with teammates is finally punishable

fullheartcontainer

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

PVP has never been better. This is the first patch where clumping together with teammates is finally punishable

it's.... an alliance war. By DESIGN you are supposed to group up. If you want to solo go BG or something?

sabresandiego_ESO

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

sabresandiego_ESO wrote: »

PVP has never been better. This is the first patch where clumping together with teammates is finally punishable

it's.... an alliance war. By DESIGN you are supposed to group up. If you want to solo go BG or something?

[snip] Spread out and Stay 9 meters apart from each other and these new sets aren’t better than older sets.

[edited for Inappropriate Content]