Ball Groups Are Now Consistently Beatable

sabresandiego_ESO

Small (2-4) and large (4+) groups of tightly packed players are finally more consistently beatable. Even fair fights of 4on4 and similar engagements seem to be reaching a conclusion rather than stalemating for eons before a lucky burst, third party attacker, or bug ends it. The game play has drastically improved and it seems to be largely due to the three new pvp sets.

These sets are getting a lot of complaints, mainly because whenever something is effective and changes the way a game flows - people who are used to older game play get riled up. You’ll notice that if a new set is introduced on the PTS: if it is effective the masses will rally to get it nerfed into mediocrity before it hits live so that they can maintain their status quo gameplay and not have to adapt to something new.

These three new sets are undeniably effective. They drastically improve pvp flow in my opinion. And they all do the same thing, punish people for being near each other even if it’s just 2 people.

The game has finally incentivized spreading out, and rather than adapt; people want to go back to something brain dead and comfortable (balling up and paying no attention to teammate spread).

I personally love the new sets and improved flow of combat.

Raeyleigh

Its the wrong incentive because in cyro the entire server still sits at 1 or 2 spots and causes massive laggs, they just not stack as tightly as before.

Plaguebreak and Convergence are somewhat fine as they combat ballgroups and factionstacks but leave smallscale mostly alone.

Hrothgar in particular is an absolute abomination that makes even smallscale and bgs unplayable.

Fhritz

Raeyleigh wrote: »

Its the wrong incentive because in cyro the entire server still sits at 1 or 2 spots and causes massive laggs, they just not stack as tightly as before.

Plaguebreak and Convergence are somewhat fine as they combat ballgroups and factionstacks but leave smallscale mostly alone.

Hrothgar in particular is an absolute abomination that makes even smallscale and bgs unplayable.

Hrotgar is an abomination towards the pariah and tanky meta, but it doesn't make bg unplayable at all. Even if it seems that sometimes this set is bugged most of the time this set work as intended and is a great tool against tank meta

sabresandiego_ESO

Raeyleigh wrote: »

Its the wrong incentive because in cyro the entire server still sits at 1 or 2 spots and causes massive laggs, they just not stack as tightly as before.

Plaguebreak and Convergence are somewhat fine as they combat ballgroups and factionstacks but leave smallscale mostly alone.

Hrothgar in particular is an absolute abomination that makes even smallscale and bgs unplayable.

I think Hrothgar has made BG's significantly better. Yes its an extremely good set because it punishes even small scale players for standing next to a teamate who has high armor. But it has great counterplay:

1. Don't stand next to tanky teamates
2. If you are forced to stand near tanky teamates you need to have high enough health and armor to survive the burst

It's punishing dog piling even in BG's and ending fights that would have stalemated and been extremely boring. Hrothgar is the best thing to happen to BG's in my opinion

Stx

I don't mind plaguebreak so much, punishing purges is a common type of effect in other games and allows pure dot style builds to deal their damage.

Hrothgar is degenerate in the sense that it directly punishes you for building tanky. The proc damage this set can deal against someone in 33k resists is insane. The proc should scale off of something else, like offensive stats.

Dark convergence doesn't even need to be discussed. It's the most overtuned, broken set to ever be implemented in game.

ResidentContrarian

ZOS will probably nerf all the sets to appease ball group and supposed 1vX players. For some reason, these players get all the balance catered to them with zero explanation in the game.

All of these sets have counters: pay attention and use active defense.

But players being forced to use active defense in this game is opposed by a large portion of the PvP community that refuses to change, and yet that same community always looks down on others.

I still won't slot any of those sets, because I hate proc sets, and I can also see they aren't as effective as people claim except where they were intended to be.

Where they are intended to be effective is too narrow for me, so I have to pass on the sets.

I don't really enjoy PvP being reduced to set v. set. However, a group having an absolute advantage because of two skills is also a problem, esp. when they PvDoor or run with a faction stack (or with hammer), despite some players pretending that doesn't happen.

Compared to the power of a ball group, the sets are still lacking. It's simply that ballgroups wrecked by it aren't as productive as they either claim or believe, as everyone in a ball group should have the stam to roll or block at any point in time.

Oh wait, some entire ball groups are wearing Sithis...no sympathy.

Stx

"All of these sets have counters"

Right. To counter hrothgar I leave the battlefield, go to my bank and try to find a new set of gear or new build on the spot.

To counter plaguebreak I just don't use one of the strongest utility abilities in the templar kit.

Degenerate design.

Amottica

If a group knows what they are doing they have always been able to have a fair fight with a similarly sized and skilled group. If they are easily killing them or larger groups then those defeated are not very good. The same goes with groups that struggle with similarly sized or smaller groups, they have room for improvement.

Well-organized groups will adjust to these new sets (or they will be nerfed if overperforming) and players who struggled before will struggle again.

Hexquisite

I guess it comes down to how you feel about the age old question of "should outnumbered players be able to kill the enemy?"

Ive run in small scales that have beaten certain other small scales/larger groups for YEARS, but now they have the sets--and we don't because we were selling most stuff, they can beat us. I don't think that is skill. And our groups will soon be wearing these and it will be back to us killing the enemy and tower farming.

Anyway, thank you for making me rich!

Kory

Ballgroups are also using the new sets effectively.

Theignson

There are 2 guilds on PC NA that run ball groups and are well known for causing server lag and lag stun. You can't break free from their dump of abilities and then they kill you with their ulti.

GUESS WHAT??

Now one of those ball groups is mass equipping convergence. They mass cast it, I was hit by 4 dark convergence, could not break free, and died of course

Surprise surprise--so the ball groups are now running huge numbers of dark convergence sets.

Meanwhile I tried to hit them with rush of agony and hrothgar-- minimal effect, they are cc immune constantly and they cause so much lag you can hardly cast near them. Of course, I was solo and there were 12 of them so it's expected. I'm glad to hear other people are having more success!

techyeshic

The ones I have a huge problem with are the pulls. A lot of the time, you get pulled, you roll, you block, you're good At prime time however; pulls can cause desync, break free doesn't work, so then you're dead. It's what I didn't like about the 1 set not giving CC immunity, but it's bad enough without that.

Fhritz

Stx wrote: »

"All of these sets have counters"

Right. To counter hrothgar I leave the battlefield, go to my bank and try to find a new set of gear or new build on the spot.

To counter plaguebreak I just don't use one of the strongest utility abilities in the templar kit.

Degenerate design.

"To counter an anti-tank set, you need to change your set to be less tanky" no way dude. -.

Tbh I LOVE this set so much, it offer a great tool against tanky build (the AoE is a little "too much" tho)

Learn how to deal with these set, not everyone is wearing Hrotgar / plaguebreak / dark convergence but you need to adapt your strat

ResidentContrarian

techyeshic wrote: »

The ones I have a huge problem with are the pulls. A lot of the time, you get pulled, you roll, you block, you're good At prime time however; pulls can cause desync, break free doesn't work, so then you're dead. It's what I didn't like about the 1 set not giving CC immunity, but it's bad enough without that.

Don't forget you can be pulled through walls with them. Perhaps ZOS should look at those sets and place additional checks on them.

Being pulled from the top of a keep by a guy on the ground with the set because some guy is abusing a certain skill should not go unaddressed. Only a matter of time until the process gets "known" enough for complaints to be widespread.

LarsS

Theignson wrote: »

GUESS WHAT??

Now one of those ball groups is mass equipping convergence. They mass cast it, I was hit by 4 dark convergence, could not break free, and died of course

Surprise surprise--so the ball groups are now running huge numbers of dark convergence sets.

Meanwhile I tried to hit them with rush of agony and hrothgar-- minimal effect, they are cc immune constantly and they cause so much lag you can hardly cast near them. Of course, I was solo and there were 12 of them so it's expected. I'm glad to hear other people are having more success!

ZOS have tried to counter various play styles like ball groups before, it never worked since the sets can be used by ball groups to. A number of years ago Viscous Death was introduces to to counter ball groups and zerg, guess what it made the ball groups stronger. I think the same will happen this time.

xDeusEJRx

It's all fun and games until the masses get access to the sets and everyone starts running it. It happens every time a strong set releases, there's this grace period of people enjoying what it can do but once everyone gets their hands on it, it becomes overly annoying and everyone then hates it.
Happened with Vicious Death then everyone in Blackwood became a VD Acuity bomber, happened with pre-nerf Sloads then Zos implemented a cap on oblivion damage, happened with Crimson and now the set scales off your health.

I give these new sets a 2-3 week honeymoon period and then when more people start getting their hands on the sets and you see it being widely used, it will not be as highly praised anymore

Stx

Exactly.

Introducing an overpowered set isn't a solution to a game balance problem. It's just makes everything messier.

I also think it's ludicrous that zos apparently is repeating their mistakes. These sets are basically the same if not worse than the crazy OP proc sets from last year and prior.

fullheartcontainer

There will never be a point where unskilled players will be happy because there is nothing ZOS can do that makes them more skilled. You can't balance Elo rating with sets unless you can somehow stop people with high Elo from also using them.

If someone is bad at the game, they are just going to be permanently disappointed at their inability to adapt. Someone more skilled will always find a way.

LarsS

Once long ago when ESO was new there were no CP and no proc sets, thats when I came to love Cyrodiil. At that time PVP were about player skill and teamwork. It's still important but proc sets and cp, changed the balance to the advantage of longtime players (high CP) and highly organized groups (proc sets).

The introduction of the non-proc in the non-cp campaign, recreate the classic ESO PVP, it's more inviting to new players and much easier to balance. It will be interesting to see if this approach will breath new life into Cyrodiil PVP.

YandereGirlfriend

@LarsS Definitely agree. Ravenwatch is in a really nice place right now (with the "hidden" sets working) - all it needs is more populations and for guilds to switch back to it. Probably won't happen until the campaigns reset (because guilds have already homed Blackreach) but next campaign there is a real possibility that Ravenwatch becomes a campaign with queues again.

fullheartcontainer wrote: »

There will never be a point where unskilled players will be happy because there is nothing ZOS can do that makes them more skilled. You can't balance Elo rating with sets unless you can somehow stop people with high Elo from also using them.

If someone is bad at the game, they are just going to be permanently disappointed at their inability to adapt. Someone more skilled will always find a way.

This should be like a pinned post at the top of this sub-forum.

Sluggy

@YandereGirlfriend I can only hope Ravenwatch becomes poluated again. Because after just an hour of tonight in either of the CP campaigns I've simply had enough. I knew this stuff was beyond stupid when I played with it on the PTS but on live with large groups it is just painful. I'm not one that often complains about proc-damage sets but even in 1v1 it's absolutely oppressive to fight against. I'm not going back there until they delete that junk.

If Ravenwatch continues to only be populated for a couple hours a week though.... well I guess I'll have to look elsewhere for my evening entertainment.

MadeInVN

I'm a solo PvPer/smallscaler, and I don't think any mechanic/set that allows 1 person/small group to completely wipe a larger coordinated group should exist in the game. It's broken gameplay at its core. Here is why:

1) Dark Convergence attacks a group's ability to move as one unit
2) Hrothgar attacks a group's ability to stack mitigation to survive an ult bomb
3) Plaguebreak attacks a group's ability to remove negative debuffs

When you have 2 groups fighting each other the group with one of these 3 sets will have a complete advantage over the other. In fact, it can be a game changing advantage, as these 3 sets attack the aforementioned core aspects of group play. What it will eventually come down to is every single ball group will be equipped with these new sets and they will once again dominate the same players that these sets are supposed to help. Furthermore, the meta will also only revolve around these 3 sets due to their lethality over old proc sets. Who needs Vicious Death or Vate 2h when you have Hrothgar/Plaguebreak/Convergence dealing 10-15k AoE burst damage...

Instead of introducing sets to counter ball groups, ZOS needs to attack the mechanics that make ball groups strong in the first place. Diminishing cross heals with increasing group size, capping group heals, capping AoE purge, etc. are much better and more balanced at limiting a large group's strength than what we currently have in this new patch.

Ocelot9x

Playing on PS4 EU so still haven't tried them, but will be fun getting zerged by 20 people using those sets. People complaining about ball groups (6-12 ppl) are mostly solo Zerg surfers, and what makes this game so fun (when not lagging ofc) is that a coordinated smaller group can fight heavily outnumbered and still win. But the sets that should help that way of playing are always abused by the blobs, resulting in more and more people zergsurfing while using them.

For example yesterday we were 8 people, with a dedicated healer and a Necro harmony-vicious. Every fight we had at least 6-7 bomblades trying to kill us while fighting the zergs and I bet next patch we'll have to constantly deal with the 3 new sets being spammed on us.

Tldr: the problem with those kind of set is that they punish being coordinated and can be used by the bigger, uncoordinated groups and be equally effective.

ResidentContrarian

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Tldr: the problem with those kind of set is that they punish being coordinated and can be used by the bigger, uncoordinated groups and be equally effective.

You know what's funny? Despite that being the case in a theoretical sense, it is not the case in reality. That is why most of the players complaining about the changes are ones that play in ball groups, and I can tell you that they aren't fighting outnumbered.

They are also themselves trying to use sets and failing at it because the true "pros" either block or roll, and the sets lose effectiveness when used on smaller groups.

Not to mention ball groups usually build for defense, which also cuts the power of these sets.

You don't really think solos and smallscalers are complaining about this set, do you?

Trust me, I have seen nearly every player in this thread. I got good eyes and a good memory.

EDIT: spellcheck

Greasytengu

I play a healer, Stamden healer to be precise.


Last night I ran with Dark Convergence on, and no damaging or CC abilities (I rarely slot damage anyways). I was able to deal extreme damage to other groups using only Corrupting pollen. This was while healing my group and providing buffs.

I am not built to be a DPS, I am very firmly a Healer/Support build and now because I slotted 5 peices of gear, I have the potential to wipe entire groups.

Its busted as hell!

Abyssmol

Greasytengu wrote: »

I play a healer, Stamden healer to be precise.


Last night I ran with Dark Convergence on, and no damaging or CC abilities (I rarely slot damage anyways). I was able to deal extreme damage to other groups using only Corrupting pollen. This was while healing my group and providing buffs.

I am not built to be a DPS, I am very firmly a Healer/Support build and now because I slotted 5 peices of gear, I have the potential to wipe entire groups.

Its busted as hell!

Let's be real here. You're arguing for a nerf because you and your group are getting kill by the set. It's not that you are killing so many players! You know what's busted as hell? "Coordinated" groups taking a keep without attempting to fight anyone, getting the scroll, and just staying in the keep farming players. That's not pvp; it's not the objective of Cyrodiil. They stay in the keep because they know they can't be killed. That my friend is busted! This happens almost every night EP Xbox NA. With the new sets, hopefully, these groups would have to play the way the game was intended or die. That is balance to me!

I hope everyone starts using this sets!!!

Greasytengu

Abyssmol wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

I play a healer, Stamden healer to be precise.


Last night I ran with Dark Convergence on, and no damaging or CC abilities (I rarely slot damage anyways). I was able to deal extreme damage to other groups using only Corrupting pollen. This was while healing my group and providing buffs.

I am not built to be a DPS, I am very firmly a Healer/Support build and now because I slotted 5 peices of gear, I have the potential to wipe entire groups.

Its busted as hell!

Let's be real here. You're arguing for a nerf because you and your group are getting kill by the set. It's not that you are killing so many players! You know what's busted as hell? "Coordinated" groups taking a keep without attempting to fight anyone, getting the scroll, and just staying in the keep farming players. That's not pvp; it's not the objective of Cyrodiil. They stay in the keep because they know they can't be killed. That my friend is busted! This happens almost every night EP Xbox NA. With the new sets, hopefully, these groups would have to play the way the game was intended or die. That is balance to me!

I hope everyone starts using this sets!!!

Well that would be great and all, except im in a ball group.

You think this isn't a buff to us? There is no change in strategy to be made for us, because we implemented our changes on patch day. Yes we occasionally die to these sets, but we get way way more kills from them in comparison.

Abyssmol

Greasytengu wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

I play a healer, Stamden healer to be precise.


Last night I ran with Dark Convergence on, and no damaging or CC abilities (I rarely slot damage anyways). I was able to deal extreme damage to other groups using only Corrupting pollen. This was while healing my group and providing buffs.

I am not built to be a DPS, I am very firmly a Healer/Support build and now because I slotted 5 peices of gear, I have the potential to wipe entire groups.

Its busted as hell!

Let's be real here. You're arguing for a nerf because you and your group are getting kill by the set. It's not that you are killing so many players! You know what's busted as hell? "Coordinated" groups taking a keep without attempting to fight anyone, getting the scroll, and just staying in the keep farming players. That's not pvp; it's not the objective of Cyrodiil. They stay in the keep because they know they can't be killed. That my friend is busted! This happens almost every night EP Xbox NA. With the new sets, hopefully, these groups would have to play the way the game was intended or die. That is balance to me!

I hope everyone starts using this sets!!!

Well that would be great and all, except im in a ball group.

You think this isn't a buff to us? There is no change in strategy to be made for us, because we implemented our changes on patch day. Yes we occasionally die to these sets, but we get way way more kills from them in comparison.

Then if you think these sets are a buff for your group, why are you complaining? Let me give you an scenario. I have tried to engage these un-killable groups before from far. The moment I have gotten close, as usual, I I get immobilized and 12 players pounce on me. I die! I play a Templar, no stealth, no bomb. The only thing I can do is stay away.

In the mean time, these groups are spamming heals and purge. Yes spamming purge every two seconds or so.
I know this because when I use the Templar beam and lightning heave attack from far, both attacks are cancelled every time. Now we have a set (plaguebreak) that would stop the purge spamming and that is great!! I can tell you right now that as soon as the update gets to xBox, I will be getting this set and spam the [snip] out of it at "Coordinated" groups. Balanced!

[edited for profanity bypass]

Greasytengu

Abyssmol wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

Abyssmol wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

I play a healer, Stamden healer to be precise.


Last night I ran with Dark Convergence on, and no damaging or CC abilities (I rarely slot damage anyways). I was able to deal extreme damage to other groups using only Corrupting pollen. This was while healing my group and providing buffs.

I am not built to be a DPS, I am very firmly a Healer/Support build and now because I slotted 5 peices of gear, I have the potential to wipe entire groups.

Its busted as hell!

Let's be real here. You're arguing for a nerf because you and your group are getting kill by the set. It's not that you are killing so many players! You know what's busted as hell? "Coordinated" groups taking a keep without attempting to fight anyone, getting the scroll, and just staying in the keep farming players. That's not pvp; it's not the objective of Cyrodiil. They stay in the keep because they know they can't be killed. That my friend is busted! This happens almost every night EP Xbox NA. With the new sets, hopefully, these groups would have to play the way the game was intended or die. That is balance to me!

I hope everyone starts using this sets!!!

Well that would be great and all, except im in a ball group.

You think this isn't a buff to us? There is no change in strategy to be made for us, because we implemented our changes on patch day. Yes we occasionally die to these sets, but we get way way more kills from them in comparison.

Then if you think these sets are a buff for your group, why are you complaining? Let me give you an scenario. I have tried to engage these un-killable groups before from far. The moment I have gotten close, as usual, I I get immobilized and 12 players pounce on me. I die! I play a Templar, no stealth, no bomb. The only thing I can do is stay away.

In the mean time, these groups are spamming heals and purge. Yes spamming purge every two seconds or so.
I know this because when I use the Templar beam and lightning heave attack from far, both attacks are cancelled every time. Now we have a set (plaguebreak) that would stop the purge spamming and that is great!! I can tell you right now that as soon as the update gets to xBox, I will be getting this set and spam the [snip] out of it at "Coordinated" groups. Balanced!

Are you expecting to kill a group of 12 well coordinated players by yourself?

If you want to fight a coordinated group then you need to be in a group and coordinate like they do. A band-aid set isn't going to magically wipe them for you, and they will all have those sets on the first day of the patch dropping and will likely already have counter strategies set up for dealing with the lack of purges.

Trust me, im playing the patch you are fantasizing about, Within a week of it dropping everyone has the sets and organized groups use them better than rando pugs.

You think only ball groups wont be able to purge? Everyone is now unable to purge, and standing next to someone who hasn't got the memo yet will get you killed. Good luck defending the keep from a ball group with Billy the Casual near you with his handy netch.

Think it will punish ball groups for stacking tightly? They will spread out and remain effective, meanwhile the pugs your hoping will get through the breach have all died to a coordinated Dark Convergence bomb without a single enemy within striking distance because it can be placed from max range.


As for why im complaining? This game needs major work to balance it correctly, its a hard job to do and requires constant attention and a light hand to get it right. Zos looks at this delicate, yet flawed balance and kicks it over completely because how can things be unbalanced when its scattered over the floor equally.

They do this every three months, and honestly Im sick of it. Doesn't matter what the excuse is, be it balance or performance, they upend everything with vast sweeping changes nobody asked for, or poorly thought out sets that end up being nerfed after the damage to the meta and community is already done. The decline of PVP players in the last six months is staggering, Entire guilds have called it quits. It honestly feels like they are intentionally driving people away from PVP.

[edited to remove quote]

MadeInVN

Abyssmol wrote: »

Greasytengu wrote: »

I play a healer, Stamden healer to be precise.


Last night I ran with Dark Convergence on, and no damaging or CC abilities (I rarely slot damage anyways). I was able to deal extreme damage to other groups using only Corrupting pollen. This was while healing my group and providing buffs.

I am not built to be a DPS, I am very firmly a Healer/Support build and now because I slotted 5 peices of gear, I have the potential to wipe entire groups.

Its busted as hell!

Let's be real here. You're arguing for a nerf because you and your group are getting kill by the set. It's not that you are killing so many players! You know what's busted as hell? "Coordinated" groups taking a keep without attempting to fight anyone, getting the scroll, and just staying in the keep farming players. That's not pvp; it's not the objective of Cyrodiil. They stay in the keep because they know they can't be killed. That my friend is busted! This happens almost every night EP Xbox NA. With the new sets, hopefully, these groups would have to play the way the game was intended or die. That is balance to me!

I hope everyone starts using this sets!!!

Why don't you think for a second that the coordinated group you're talking about is indirectly helping their faction by holding off your faction's players at one keep so their faction can freely capture other keeps? If a group of 10 EPs goes to Blackboot, captures a scroll, and farms 20 ADs there, then the EP faction has 20 less ADs to worry about. Why is that not a good thing?

They aren't doing objectives. They're PvPing, but their skill allows their faction to push forward. Whether their faction actually takes advantage of their work or not is a different matter. Unless you're just running around doing quests and gathering mats, every single action involving PvP in Cyrodiil will indirectly help your faction.

LarsS

I don't think it's possible to balance pvp within the context of cp and proc, ZOS have tried it for years and failed. High cp will always be an advantage and so will the proc sets for a ball group. An organized group on voice com will always have an advantage there is no way around that, but high cp groups with a good proc set ups stacks the odds to the ball groups advantage.