What makes a tank a tank?

vms11934

Spoiler ahead if you don't know March of Sacrifices dungeon.

Specifically, I have in mind the boss fight from March of Sacrifices where in Wyress Ursus uses a power bash attack that will apparently one shot anyone who blocks that is not a tank (those who are not tanks much dodge). In a random normal dungeon last night, two people dropped (one dps and the tank) and the healer and I tried this fight, but despite blocking his big attack, it would one shot us (didn't know about the need to dodge at the time). I guess I can see in daily dungeon who is the tank, since roles are specifically selected. But what about when grouping with friends, for example? How is a tank defined for something like this? Is a tank simply defined by taunting?

Thannazzar

Id define it as:

For Normal Dungeons: Taunt Equipped, 25 k Health, 22K Resists

For Vets: Taunt Equipped, 45k Health, 27 K Resists, Pen Debuf slotted, Pull Slotted.

vms11934

Is there an official thing that defines it, though, specifically for this boss fight? From my experience (limited, albeit) and what the guides say, the 'tank' needs to block this big attack. What does the game consider a tank to be?

Jazraena

I'd dare say you need neither 45k health nor a pull, but it depends a bit on build and dungeon.

As long as the tank is sufficiently sturdy, taunts the actually important targets and provides Major Breach I'm happy. I'd also suggest random dungeon tanks bring some more self-sufficiency, but that's more from not knowing what sort of healer and DPS you get.

Fennwitty

vms11934 wrote: »

Is there an official thing that defines it, though, specifically for this boss fight? From my experience (limited, albeit) and what the guides say, the 'tank' needs to block this big attack. What does the game consider a tank to be?

There's no official game definition outside of the role-picker in group menu.

When online sites and other players refer to "tanks" they primarily mean a character that can taunt and won't die when hit. They don't care about the specifics.

There are a variety of ways to achieve this -- the standard way is for "tanks" to have higher hit points, armor and resistances, and put their CP and gear toward defense. This is the default assumption. The "tank" has lots of hit points, and is able to survive big hits simply by blocking.

You could make a tank with really low hit points, but they're able to put up crazy big damage shields that absorb damage instead. You could make a dodge-roll tank, who never takes a hit but always dodges instead.

You can have a person with 12k hit points and no taunt, no damage shields, no stamina for dodge-rolling self-select themselves as the tank role in group finder but it won't change the fact they're not "tanky" by the common understanding. So they'll still die to that attack if they take it in the face.

Wing

actually that is a good question.

nowhere in ESO is there note that says:

"hey if your playing a tank you should have X resistances and X hp"


i hate tanking in ESO but really enjoy it in FF14, and in that game if your a tank you kind of meet the requirements by virtue of the class itself, it is the floor.

with ESO and anyone can do anything that idea is just gone. and yet, the game is clearly designed with specific roles and numbers in mind.

etchedpixels

The tank role is at minimum to stop the DPS and healer getting hit with the heavy stuff so they can concentrate on doing damage and healing. A better tank can provide buffs and/or stack stuff to maximise the dps being delivered.

It's nigh on impossible to "define" a tank though because it depends upon the group. In a serious veteran dungeon group you'll have a mix of classes and roles chosen not to overlap buffs - so you might have a DK tank and a warden healer and the DK tank built for massive health and resists (and thus poorer sustain) but the warden provides the sustain, additional group resists and keep minor toughness up all the time, and you'll also have at least one sorc dps in the group I imagine.

In four man content with semi-random groups it's frequently the case that you have to build the tank so you can do a chunk of the dps in case you get dps who are hitting like a wet jelly, and to heal the entire group because the healer may well also be a total fake who can't heal or dps either.

There is some content where there are one shots even to a tank - vet hard selene for example. Those are just annoying because 99% of the time you wipe because the game lags not because of player skill. Perhaps when they get their ever pending server upgrade it'll improve.

For a lot of stuff honestly it doesn't matter - you can tank normal non DLC dungeons with 30K health in underpants, heck you can (and I have) tanked vet hardmode vaults of madness in underpants with a decent group.

Grandchamp1989

A tank at its most basic level should be able to hold aggro on at the very least the boss and one-shot adds.
This means holding up taunt on high threat targets and keep taunt - meaning it doesn't constantly run out and the tank doesn't constantly die.

But that's a tank at its most basic level. Keep taunt-stay alive.

Ideally a tank will have CC-chains/leash enemies, debuff enemies and buff the team.

ixthUA

As a healer i have 3 requirements for a tank in veteran dungeons:
- don't solo speedrun;
- don't go from full hp to 0 in less than 1.5 sec;
- don't let the boss to face DDs, unless in an untauntable phase.
Having war horn is a nice bonus.

code65536

There are only two requirements for a tank:

1. Taunt the big threats
2. Don't die

If they can do those two things, then they're a tank.

For example, when I queue for a random vet and get a group with very low damage, I will sometimes swap to a DPS setup, if the fight allows it. Put on my DPS sets, slot my DPS skills, and do damage while using the Undaunted taunt to hold aggro. Now, I still have the attributes, skill morphs, and CP of a tank, but I've been able to do 50% or more of the total group DPS in some extreme cases. There are some who would not consider this to be tanking, but as long as I have the boss's aggro and I'm not dying, then I'm still the tank, in my book.

Now, there's some flexibility on that "don't die" clause. Resistance, health, etc., are all negotiable and dependent on the content and experience level of the tank. You can totally tank vWGT in a DPS setup, if you know what you're doing. But in a newer DLC dungeon, this would not work.

TwinLamps

What makes tank a tank?
-loathing queue
-low apm
-masochistic tendencies
-having a tail
Yes, I am a tank.

LeonAkando

Thannazzar wrote: »

Id define it as:

For Normal Dungeons: Taunt Equipped, 25 k Health, 22K Resists

For Vets: Taunt Equipped, 45k Health, 27 K Resists, Pen Debuf slotted, Pull Slotted.

In many ways you do not need to slot a pull, Necro-Armor is a solid alternative, and Vateshran Sword and Shield is even better. I'd say the usage of a pull in every single dungeon is a mark of a bad tank. There are other stronger skills.

Furthermore, 45k health is excessive for most dungeons. Although I like to run more than 45k in a few just incase coordination is off. But I've seen tanks run 30k health and clear VHM BDV.

vms11934

So, all that talk of the tank needing to take that hit in MoS basically just means you should have high resistances and high enough HP to withstand the damage even while blocking? There isn't some feature, attribute, mechanic, etc that makes the game say "you are a tank and thus you will survive this attack if you block" or "you are not a tank so no matter your resistances, HP, and if you block or not, you will die from this attack?" I would not expect the latter to be the case, but being one-shotted on a normal dungeon while blocking was just odd, and the guides are all worded the same way, which made me wonder.

Darkstorne

A healer's perspective -

Essentials:

• Taunt bosses and any major threats (don't need to taunt trash)
• Know how to block, interrupt, and stay alive. I can't heal you through one-shot mechanics.

Dream tanks:

• Pull trash together into one juicy pile of mincemeat, and lock them down there.
• Debuff boss armour and damage dealt.
• Group sets rather than selfish sets, if you can take the hit to survivability reliably.

I run SPC and Powerful Assault on my healer, buffing group damage to big heights. So I love it when tanks can keep enemies grouped up and locked down to help trash melt away quickly, and ideally debuff enemy defences too so that they melt even faster. But honestly, so long as you can taunt the boss and not die to one-shot mechanics, I'm happy enough

LeonAkando

vms11934 wrote: »

So, all that talk of the tank needing to take that hit in MoS basically just means you should have high resistances and high enough HP to withstand the damage even while blocking? .

Correct. The conversation got slightly derailed. But in March of Sarcrifices there is no such as thing "this is the tank" marker on someone. They survive because they have Health, Resistances, and also very vital BLOCK MITIGATION bonuses.

A boss could heavy attack me (while I'm blocking) on a magsorc for example for 50k and I'm done.
But a tank build has so much more block mitigation and resistance that the blocked attack would only smack them for ~12k.

vms11934

LeonAkando wrote: »

vms11934 wrote: »

So, all that talk of the tank needing to take that hit in MoS basically just means you should have high resistances and high enough HP to withstand the damage even while blocking? .

Correct. The conversation got slightly derailed. But in March of Sarcrifices there is no such as thing "this is the tank" marker on someone. They survive because they have Health, Resistances, and also very vital BLOCK MITIGATION bonuses.

A boss could heavy attack me (while I'm blocking) on a magsorc for example for 50k and I'm done.
But a tank build has so much more block mitigation and resistance that the blocked attack would only smack them for ~12k.

That's really what I was wondering. Thanks

ResidentContrarian

A tank is whatever build I use on the PTS to troll and antagonize players every PTS cycle for warden.

I test it by going to vet trial dungeons solo and seeing performance. Definitely a good gauge for PvP performance and brokeness too...

Aznarb

-Don't die stupidly
-Pierce-Armor slot + infused crusher on staff/2h/bow
=> 100% uptime on those 2.

I'm happy with that, don't need more for 90% content.

molecule

Survivabilty,, knowledge of mechanics and skill.

A good tank is priceless.

( spoken from a DPS point of view )

El_Borracho

Thannazzar wrote: »

Id define it as:

For Normal Dungeons: Taunt Equipped, 25 k Health, 22K Resists

For Vets: Taunt Equipped, 45k Health, 27 K Resists, Pen Debuf slotted, Pull Slotted.

I think this is an excellent baseline. Simply put, tanks need to hold the boss and not die. Pulling adds, debuffing the boss/buffing the group, and knowing mechanics so as to position the boss and the group are the others. The ability to not move and/or move just enough to keep the boss and avoid the damage is one of the hardest to master, but that is what separates the good tanks from the great.

Oh, one more thing: DON'T BE A WEREWOLF. I say this as an avid fan of the Werewolf DD and a tank. I've seen enough WW tanks in pugs die in lightning storms (Stone Garden) and poison showers (Scalecaller).

joseayalac

I think no one has yet undertood OP's question. I believe I got it.

The boss (read game) doesn't differentiate between a DPS, a Healer or a Tank, the only way to tell it is by taunting it.

About the guide that you read, I guess what the person who wrote it wanted to say is that only someone built as a "real tank" would be tanky enough to block it.

I hope this answer sweeps away the confusion. Stay safe during dungeon exploring, it's a dangerous activity.

Merforum

Here's a good youtuber/streamer who does many pug VET dungeons and does very good tanking.
https://www.youtube.com/c/xynodegaming/videos

I mostly only do Normal pugs because I don't have his patience, but did do the NEW DLCs yesterday on Vet and we did Red Petal without wiping and Dread only wiped about 5 times with 1 bad DD who rage quit, then 2 more times with a replacement DD, I was healing my butt off and after rezing DDs probably 5 times each, finished last 10% health with just me and tank. To be honest there are some 'secret boss' synergies that would probably have helped but no one knew how to do it.

But to your first question. In MoS especially on Vet that 'tank' boss is a pain in the butt. Because he has a couple of 1 shots. I even tried with 55K health and blocking and he still bashed me 1 shot. You either have to roll or use mist on that attack. Although that was several years ago and I think about 2 years ago they toned down those dungeons because the last time I missed block and didn't even kill me.

BTW the biggest problem with MoS is tank can't necessarily taunt all 3 bosses cuz that have to stay separate. And even the other 2 bosses have 1 shot attacks. So easiest is for tank to taunt 'tank boss' and have everyone burn that one down while tolling from other 2 bosses 1 shots. Then it is super easy.

BTW I think the difference between a minimal tank and a good one is being able to position each fight correctly and pull mobs into pile. Then all the DPS has to do is drop a few AOEs and avoid mechs. If a tank is good everything is easy. BTW if you are a tank and stacking the groups effectively you don't have to switch gear, at most, just slot a few AOEs and maybe put 'titanic cleave' on back bar and cleave a few times.