So about flare and major protection

WrathOfInnos

Armor potions stack with Major Resolve, it’s a unique buff. They’re definitely niche, but can be pretty good in the right scenario. Especially if you know what you’re going to be fighting against, so that you can use one of the following:

- Spell Resist + Magicka + Health
- Physical Resist + Stamina + Health

If you are fighting a mix of mag and stam builds then the only option would be:

- Spell Resist + Physical Resist + Health

Which obviously makes sustain difficult.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at with the 25k resist example. Major Breach is not going to take that down to zero, so you still get mitigation from 5k resistance. In fact if you were at 20k resistance with Major Protection and affected by Major Breach (dropping to 14k resist) you would take:

(100-14000/660)% x (100-10)% = 70.8% of incoming damage

The same build with resistance potions, but no Major Protection, affected by Major Breach would end up at 19.3k resistance and takes:

(100-19280/660)% = 70.8% of incoming damage

Exactly the same number, interesting...

And this is on the low end. Any builds with higher resistance will see more benefit from adding resistance. Builds with lower resistance (down below the 13k I mentioned previously) would be better off with Major Protection. It’s much easier to build resistance in this game than it is to build penetration, so in general resistance is going to be a good option.

DrSlaughtr

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at with the 25k resist example. Major Breach is not going to take that down to zero, so you still get mitigation from 5k resistance.

I never said that. What I said was even if some DD ran armor pots, which a vast majority don't because it's useless, fracture would remove the benefit of the armor pot. And once you're 20k resistance or lower you're already running a glass cannon. What glass cannon is choosing an armor pot over damage?

So here we are. Now it's "well you know you can run armor in pots so major protection is garbage."

One, no one runs essence of armor save maybe a few weirdos. And EVEN IF THEY DID they can now stack it with Major Protection.

So first it's major evasion being used as an excuse and now it's armor pots. Neither of those have any bearing on the issue at hand.

This was supposedly, per the devs, to help make up for the great burden of slotting flare but what they did instead was give the heartiest classes in the game more ability to grief other classes in Cyrodiil. Templars, wardens and necros will become even stronger than they already are but hey, chasing them around keeps for half an hour is okay because a sorc gets extra cusion on their backbar.

This is what I keep hearing.

Major protection isn't any good so don't worry

Oh major protection will make me run it over light/hunter which both reveal better AND come with supposedly better benefits.

So when is it. Is Major Protection crap? Must not be because a whole lot of people seem to want it, which means it must be better than all the benefits of light/hunter.

Xahran

I already, and others, explained before why major protection isn't as crazy as you, and other people, think it is. And yet you keep ignoring anyone who argues otherwise.

Flare is already the worst detection skill. It costs you a bar slot for a skill which is the arguably the worst at detection, a buff that is made to counter just ONE class.

You are saying flare is going to make mage light and hunter absolute? Now if my memory services me right, unless you are a templar, dk, or a warden, you don't have any other skills than mage and hunter to get major savagery and prophecy. Which means that forgoing mage and hunter for flare will force you to run spell crit pots instead of keeping your tri-pots that are much better to your survivability than major protection ever will be.

Flare will be only good if you don't need those buffs or have easy access to those buffs. And then it will still be a mediocre situational skill that is taking a bar slot for like 3% damage reduction. Best use I can see for it is if you are running a pvp tank (and I mean a no damage tank) and have a spare slot.

People who are going crazy over it were probably undying tanks without it anyway and at worst it will increase global ttk by a tiny bit which is what the devs were going for anyway with the patch. Literally, the only problem I see with that skill is that Pirate Skeleton will be moot.

DrSlaughtr

Again if it's garbage where are all the threads of people asking for a better buff or effect?

Xahran

It isn't garbage, it is fine but not as op as you think it is. No one would ask to buff flare or give it a better buff, because most of us would rather use another skill anyway.

DrSlaughtr

Xahran wrote: »

It isn't garbage, it is fine but not as op as you think it is. No one would ask to buff flare or give it a better buff, because most of us would rather use another skill anyway.

It is op. You know how I know this? Because a
If you ambush a Necro without guardian active they drop dead in three seconds. The same Necro with guardian can out last anything you throw at them because that 10% gives them plenty of time to run through their defenses.

You can keep talking about diminishing returns because it doesn't matter. If you're a 25k health DD you're GOING to notice the difference. If you're a 35k Necro tank you WILL notice a difference. I know exactly how major protection feels because I run northern storm on two wardens.

So here we are again. If it's supposedly not good and flare isn't a good reveal, then why am I not seeing anyone asking for some other benefit? Instead it's a contingent of players who really really want free major protection and/or don't understand what it will do you the game.

You're already getting a huge buff to mitigation via battle spirit. This is overkill.

Abyssmol

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Xahran wrote: »

It isn't garbage, it is fine but not as op as you think it is. No one would ask to buff flare or give it a better buff, because most of us would rather use another skill anyway.

It is op. You know how I know this? Because a
If you ambush a Necro without guardian active they drop dead in three seconds. The same Necro with guardian can out last anything you throw at them because that 10% gives them plenty of time to run through their defenses.

You can keep talking about diminishing returns because it doesn't matter. If you're a 25k health DD you're GOING to notice the difference. If you're a 35k Necro tank you WILL notice a difference. I know exactly how major protection feels because I run northern storm on two wardens.

So here we are again. If it's supposedly not good and flare isn't a good reveal, then why am I not seeing anyone asking for some other benefit? Instead it's a contingent of players who really really want free major protection and/or don't understand what it will do you the game.

You're already getting a huge buff to mitigation via battle spirit. This is overkill.

"why am I not seeing anyone asking for some other benefit?" - I am passed major protection on Flare. I want what every stamina player has access to - major evasion. 😆 ZOS make it happen!!!

Xahran

First, Necro's guardian is a whole other point because it also heals and its damage reduction isn't a major/minor buff and stacks with everything. If you believe Necro is only tanky because of his guardian then you don't know much about Necro.

Second, unlike Necro's guardian, flare's major protection is contending with consuming darkness, sleet storm, daedric trickery and pirate skeleton and maybe some other sources I forgot. The only reason some people are excited over major prot is that it is quitr uncommon not because it is powerful.

Third, if you are a tank you will never feel the difference but you will barely feel anything anyway if you are beyond 80% damage mitigation without block. And those builds existed before Flare and were probably getting their major protection somewhere else.

Finally, if you are a DD you are probably running crit and no good DD that are sane enough would use flare and mage light or expert hunter not to mention double barring flare (an idea that gives me a slight giggle everytime I think about it).

You know what? I would rather have minor berserk, heroism, mending, vitality or toughness over major protection and those are all minor buffs. Their major counterparts would make protection look inferior in comparison and only then more people would agree with you that flare is op.

Xahran

Care to explain that part, if possible? @ExistingRug61

"Additionally, in the case of eHP, adding more and more sources of mitigation actually provides more and more benefit for each subsequent mitigation ."

WrathOfInnos

TheEndBringer wrote: »

So here we are. Now it's "well you know you can run armor in pots so major protection is garbage."

That seems to be directed at me. Just because you put quotation marks around something doesn't mean anyone said it. There's a quote button on each post if you'd like to use it correctly. Nobody in this thread has said major protection is garbage, and I've been extremely clear in all my posts that it is balanced in this case (as in not overpowered, not underpowered).

I even took the time to use the numbers from YOUR example and demonstrate that Major Protection gave exactly the same result as 5280 resistance.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at with the 25k resist example. Major Breach is not going to take that down to zero, so you still get mitigation from 5k resistance.

I never said that. What I said was even if some DD ran armor pots, which a vast majority don't because it's useless, fracture would remove the benefit of the armor pot. And once you're 20k resistance or lower you're already running a glass cannon.

Sure you did. Here, I'll show you the quote function.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I'm sure there are some people who run essence of armor but you give up a lot to do so. Now as far as the mitigation you get from 5k armor being better than 10% from Major Protection, I don't buy that for one second. You know why? Even if you're a DD @ 20 resistance so you get propped up to 25k, anyone can apply major fracture to wipe that out. You can't wipe out Major Protection. You can't cancel the buff.

You seem to think that Major Breach (I assume you mean because Major Fracture doesn't exist anymore) wouldn't affect the mitigation of the DD with 20k resistance, when in reality it would bring them down to 14k regardless of their Major Protection. You can't just arbitrarily apply different debuffs when trying to compare two different builds.

DrSlaughtr

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

TheEndBringer wrote: »

So here we are. Now it's "well you know you can run armor in pots so major protection is garbage."

That seems to be directed at me. Just because you put quotation marks around something doesn't mean anyone said it. There's a quote button on each post if you'd like to use it correctly. Nobody in this thread has said major protection is garbage, and I've been extremely clear in all my posts that it is balanced in this case (as in not overpowered, not underpowered).

I even took the time to use the numbers from YOUR example and demonstrate that Major Protection gave exactly the same result as 5280 resistance.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

.
I’m not sure what you’re getting at with the 25k resist example. Major Breach is not going to take that down to zero, so you still get mitigation from 5k resistance.

I never said that. What I said was even if some DD ran armor pots, which a vast majority don't because it's useless, fracture would remove the benefit of the armor pot. And once you're 20k resistance or lower you're already running a glass cannon.

Sure you did. Here, I'll show you the quote function.

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I'm sure there are some people who run essence of armor but you give up a lot to do so. Now as far as the mitigation you get from 5k armor being better than 10% from Major Protection, I don't buy that for one second. You know why? Even if you're a DD @ 20 resistance so you get propped up to 25k, anyone can apply major fracture to wipe that out. You can't wipe out Major Protection. You can't cancel the buff.

You seem to think that Major Breach (I assume you mean because Major Fracture doesn't exist anymore) wouldn't affect the mitigation of the DD with 20k resistance, when in reality it would bring them down to 14k regardless of their Major Protection. You can't just arbitrarily apply different debuffs when trying to compare two different builds.

Okay I'll explain sentence structure.

"Even if you're a DD @ 20 resistance so you get propped up to 25k, anyone can apply major fracture to wipe that out. "

THAT in this instance is being propped up by an armor pot.

You're saying that I think major fracture reduces someone to 0 resistances which is stupid. I'm not going to be baited so I'm moving on.

Xahran wrote: »

First, Necro's guardian is a whole other point because it also heals and its damage reduction isn't a major/minor buff and stacks with everything. If you believe Necro is only tanky because of his guardian then you don't know much about Necro.

I didn't say that. But the point being is if you cc a Necro before he gets guardian back up, he drops dead. If you don't, that 10% keeps him up while his hots refill him.

Xahran wrote: »

Second, unlike Necro's guardian, flare's major protection is contending with consuming darkness, sleet storm, daedric trickery and pirate skeleton and maybe some other sources I forgot. The only reason some people are excited over major prot is that it is quitr uncommon not because it is powerful.

Those sets require you to dedicate 5 pieces to get the buff. 5 piece bonus or an ultimate is your source of major protection. You just undermined those by giving it passively.

Xahran wrote: »

Third, if you are a tank you will never feel the difference but you will barely feel anything anyway if you are beyond 80% damage mitigation without block. And those builds existed before Flare and were probably getting their major protection somewhere else.

This isn't true. You do notice. I notice. But the point I've made 20 times now is that I'm not worried about a tank. I'm worried about DDs becoming tanks AGAIN after we just fought to get rid of the tank DD plague.

Xahran wrote: »

Finally, if you are a DD you are probably running crit and no good DD that are sane enough would use flare and mage light or expert hunter not to mention double barring flare (an idea that gives me a slight giggle everytime I think about it).

You don't have to run light and hunter for CRIT. You get it from pots. Again I've made this point multiple times. They will forgo light and hunter because most DDs don't want or care about "hunting nightblades". They will run flare and use pots. And yes, I've had multiple wardens and necros who don't need 5 skills on each bar double barring it.

Xahran wrote: »

You know what? I would rather have minor berserk, heroism, mending, vitality or toughness over major protection and those are all minor buffs.

Then make that case to the devs and stop arguing with me, because fighting for major protection is contradicting this message that it's also not a good buff.

ExistingRug61

Xahran wrote: »

Care to explain that part, if possible? @ExistingRug61

"Additionally, in the case of eHP, adding more and more sources of mitigation actually provides more and more benefit for each subsequent mitigation ."

No worries. I didn't go into it too much before as my post was already quite long.

Let’s take the same example builds I had in my eHP section:

Build 1: 40k Health, 70% total mitigation
eHP = 40k/(1-0.7) = 133.33k
Build 2: 20k Health, 85% total mitigation
eHP = 20k/(1-0.85) = 133.33k

So as I had in my previous post, adding major protection does the following

Build 1: Adding major protection changes total mitigation from 70% to 73%
New eHP = 40k/(1-0.73) = 148.15k
Build 2: Adding major protection changes total mitigation from 85% to 86.5%
New eHP = 20k/(1-0.865) = 148.15k

In both cases adding 10% mitigation increased eHP by 148.15k-133.33k = 14.82k. (An 11.11% increase on 133.33k).

Now, lets say both also find another un-named 10% mitigation buff. This does the following

Build 1: Total mitigation changes from 73% to 75.7%
New eHP = 40k/(1-0.757) = 164.61k
Build 2:Total mitigation changes from 86.5% to 87.85%
New eHP = 20k/(1-0.8785) = 164.61k

As before they go up the same amount as each other. But this time it is a 164.61k - 148.15k =16.46k. So a bigger gain in eHP from adding another mitigation of the same value. It is another 11.11% increase, but multiplicatively.

Basically, every mitigation source you adds will increase eHP multiplicatively by 1/(1-mitigation).


It is this effect which actually is the reason for what I was trying to show in my last section about comparing stacking mitigations vs stacking damage boosts. eHP is a useful measure as it is basically a value that shows all of your defences combined, and it provides a direct value to compare to an attacking players total burst tooltip, which is the all of their offences combine. ie: if burst tooltip exceeds your eHP, you get killed.

Now, as we just saw, stacking mitigations work multiplicatively on eHP. As we know though, damage done boosts work additively. So this means that if one player is stacking mitigations to increase eHP, and another stacks damage boosts to try to increase burst to keep up with that eHP, they simply won't be able to.

Alternatively you can see it when players try to use damage done bonuses to overcome a defending players mitigations
ie: say you have an attack that does 10k damage to an opponent.
That player then decides to add major protection and minor protection, to reduce that 10k hit.
You are like, well I need to increase my damage again, so somehow add both major and minor berserk.
After all that is done, you still only do 10k*(1+0.1+0.05)*(1-0.1)*(1-0.05) = 9.8325k damage.
Your addition of damage boosts of the same values as their mitigations has not kept up. And will continue if this same pattern is repeated.
(If this example is looked looked at through the guise of eHP instead of using an attack as the example, it is a case of you have increased your burst tooltip by 5+10=15%, but they have increase their eHP by a factor of 1/(1-0.1)*1/(1-0.05) = 1.1696, or a 16.96% increase)

Note: There are a couple of exceptions with effects that work slightly differently in the calculation and have different relative effectiveness, namely vulnerabilities, the +/- % damage taken you get from armour passives, and I believe some CP mitigations get added together before being multiplied rather than acting as separate mitigations (which if true would meant they are actually even more effective than other mitigations when used together). But the above should be true for most general mitigation effects. These exceptions are all described in the mitigation explanation thread by paulsimonps (https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/279426/damage-mitigation-explanation-updated-21-03-2021/p1).

ExistingRug61

Extra @Xahran
I saw in you later post you said you would prefer to have one of several minor buffs instead of major protection, and your list included toughness, vitality and mending.

Note that minor toughness is strictly inferior to major protection in terms of eHP.
ie: minor toughness will increase your eHP by 10%, whereas major protection will increase it by a multiplicative factor 1/(1-0.1)=1.11111, or an 11.11% increase. Not much but it is worse. Obviously there are external factors like if you already have access to one of these buffs but not the other.
But if you have to choose one: Major protection is better than minor toughness. In all cases. [Edit: actually not all cases, minor toughness will be better in the case of any health scaling effect that is not healing, shielding or health, ie: health scaling damage abilities/procs will benefit from toughness but not protection]

Likewise minor vitality. You can also consider an effective healing value in a similar way to eHP, where
effective healing = healing tooltip/(1-mitigation)
Similarly to EHP, this value is useful as it provides a measure of how much incoming tooltip damage you can outheal over time. Simply put, if your effective healing value is greater than the sustained tooltip damage you are receiving, you will live.
Now, minor vitality will at most increase this value by 8% (it will be a lesser marginal increase if you already have any other healing received bonuses with which it stacks additively). Again, major protection will increase it by 11.11%.
So major protection will increase your ability to outheal sustained damage more than minor vitality will.
(Major protection also makes your health recovery more effective as well in the same way, but that's possibly too small a value to really matter)

The same would be true for mending, when considering just yourself, but mending will also help the amount you heal others, so it has that benefit.

ExistingRug61

Also, I realise I should possibly cover what I think leads to some of the misconceptions about mitigation stacking and whether it is diminishing or not.

Its easy to take two small mitigation sources, say two separate 5% mitigations and compare it to a single bigger mitigation source of say 10%.
And if you do this, it becomes apparent that the two 5% mitigations does not provide the same benefit as the single 10% mitigation.
Most people point to this effect, and say that its diminishing returns, and the second of those 5% mitigations hasn’t provided as much benefit as the first.
As I have tried to explain, the second 5% mitigation is not worse than the first – they both provide the same marginal benefit. Or if looked at via eHP, they actually provide an increasing return.

So then why is the single 10% mitigation better?
Its because unlike most other effects in the game, the effect of a particular X% mitigation is non-linear. A bigger X value gives more and more impact on gameplay. This is most obvious if you can take it to the extreme. For example, say a single skill could provide a 100% mitigation value. This is a finite number, but in gameplay terms, it has made you take no damage and be unkillable, which is effectively an infinite benefit. Contrast to say damage done bonuses – getting +100% damage doesn’t simply make you do infinite damage and one-shot everything. This is because +X% damage done has a linear impact on gameplay.
No if we go back to the original example: two separate 5% mitigations vs a single 10% mitigation. As we know, the single 10% mitigation is better – but its not because the second of the 5% values provided a diminishing return, it is because the 10% value actually provides more than double the benefit of each individual 5% mitigation, due to the non-linear nature.

If you accept eHP as a good metric, it can explain this effect.
Again, I’ll use the two examples I had previously.
Build 1: 40k Health, 70% total mitigation
eHP = 40k/(1-0.7) = 133.33k
Build 2: 20k Health, 85% total mitigation
eHP = 20k/(1-0.85) = 133.33k
This time, instead of adding major protection, lets add minor protection (5%).
Build 1: Adding minor protection changes total mitigation from 70% to 71.5%
New eHP = 40k/(1-0.71.5) = 140.35k
Build 2: Adding minor protection changes total mitigation from 85% to 85.75%
New eHP = 20k/(1-0.8575) = 140.35k
As we know it has the same effect on both. The increase is 140.35k-133.33k = 7.02k, or a 5.26% increase.
In the major protection (10%) example, it was a 14.82k increase, or and 11.11% marginal increase. Notice that these values are both slightly more than double the minor protection values.
So the 10% from major protection is actually more than twice as effective as the 5% from minor protection, in terms of gameplay effect.
And even when considering that the two 5% bonuses will apply multiplicatively, it still won't catch up. ie: two marginal 5.026% bonuses multiplicatively comes out to 1.0526*1.0526=1.108, or a 10.8% total marginal benefit (still less than 11.11% we got from the single 10% mitigation).

This is why single big mitigation values are stronger than multiple small ones – and why things like the undeath and mist form are so strong (mist forms 75% mitigation is a 400% marginal benefit for instance). Likewise resistance, as this can be up to a 50% mitigation as a single source (or a 200% marginal benefit). Also note that stacking resistance, because it is additive with itself before being a multiplicative effect, is providing an increasing gameplay return the more you have (up to the cap), due to the non linear effect of single mitigation values.

Xahran

TheEndBringer wrote: »

This isn't true. You do notice. I notice. But the point I've made 20 times now is that I'm not worried about a tank. I'm worried about DDs becoming tanks AGAIN after we just fought to get rid of the tank DD plague.

You don't have to run light and hunter for CRIT. You get it from pots. Again I've made this point multiple times. They will forgo light and hunter because most DDs don't want or care about "hunting nightblades". They will run flare and use pots.

Then make that case to the devs and stop arguing with me, because fighting for major protection is contradicting this message that it's also not a good buff.

If the tank DD plague ever happened (and it already is) you may as well adapt, you know? Become one yourself instead of making such a fuss over major protection on a bad skill? At least those sets and skills I mentioned already have extra functions and value over just having major protection and arent flare, the worst skill in its niche. There are people who will run major prot for more defense and there are people who will exploit all the new skill changes/sets for more damage to counter the increased ttk. That's how things always were, tank builds vs gank builds.

About your second paragraph, I said before that going for spell critical potions is already a nerf to your survivability if you have to ditch tri-pots which, again, helps your survivability much more than major prot ever will.

Again, I am not fighting for flare.I don't care what conspiracy theory you believe in. I admit that major protection is good, only time I compared it unfavourably was against other major buffs. I have also been explaining to you why buffed flare isn't the second coming you believe it is. In my playtime I think I saw pirate skellies like 3 or 4 times, not to mention that you rarely if ever hear about people running steadfast hero or immortal warrior because major protection isn't that good of a buff to dedicate a precious monster set or 5 piece bonus for.

And finally, flare does have its downsides when you compare it to mage and hunter, who won't be useless against a buffed flare and will still be used just because tri-pots are that good not to mention their passive benefits in their trees beside the fact that they buff your damage and enable your crit heals, all while giving their benefits passively without using another skill that cost resources or ditching tri-pots. They will still have their uses, the difference is that we have another option to think about now and giving flare a weaker buff will keep it in the gutter it was always in. I would always take more buffs to useless things over nerfs to actually good things unless they were totally unhealthy to the game balance and major prot isn't.

DrSlaughtr

Xahran wrote: »

Again, I am not fighting for flare.I don't care what conspiracy theory you believe in. I admit that major protection is good, only time I compared it unfavourably was against other major buffs. I have also been explaining to you why buffed flare isn't the second coming you believe it is. In my playtime I think I saw pirate skellies like 3 or 4 times, not to mention that you rarely if ever hear about people running steadfast hero or immortal warrior because major protection isn't that good of a buff to dedicate a precious monster set or 5 piece bonus for.

The reason why you don't see those being used more often is because of the sacrifice, as you states, which is the while point. Major protection has always required sacrifice to get, and one skill slot giving it passively is a huge reversal.

It's already been pointed out above mathematically just how around major protection still is.

Xahran

TheEndBringer wrote: »

The reason why you don't see those being used more often is because of the sacrifice, as you states, which is the while point. Major protection has always required sacrifice to get, and one skill slot giving it passively is a huge reversal.

It's already been pointed out above mathematically just how around major protection still is.

So you are admitting major protection isn't worth a 2 piece monster set, like I said. Even though mathematically, according to the posts of our versed guy here ExistingRug61, Skelly should be superior to sets like Domihaus, Zaan, Balorgh on cheap ults, etc. But that's because mathematics doesn't dictate how the meta works in pvp, and in pvp damage is superior to survivability in a lot of situations. I explained already why trading mage or hunter for flare has its costs and drawbacks. This doesn't mean that flare is the worse option, it just means it is an option with clear benefits and drawbacks, unlike what you said about it rendering mage and hunter useless.

High-skilled pvp is all about damage, sustain and proper use of core abilities like block, dodge and using line of sight, not face-tanking. I tell you my first build was a pariah with undeath, minor prot, major prot and major resolve with max resistances and I was still taking 10k+ incap strike or 9k+ frags. I learned this harsh truth after dueling with actually good players. 1vXers are usually high damage high sustain mobile players with enough tankiness to take some punishment not tanks who won't be able to burst anybodywho isn't a glass-cannon.

Damage and sustain both provide you with higher healing tooltips, enable insane crit heals and spamming said heals. Not to mention having higher damage pressures opponents and a pressured opponent on his defensive bar is equal to having 100% damage reduction because that opponent isn't attacking anymore.

As long as the main damage stats: crit chance, wpn/spl damage and attributes buff heals, damage stats should be superior to mitigations (not always but most of the time) even though mathematically they shouldn't.

Fried_Fowl

Major Protection ain't enough, It's a joke compared to how high damage can go, but by all means it don't matter to me just take it away so I can kill people faster than 2-5 seconds in PvP. ^^

ExistingRug61

TheEndBringer wrote: »

Xahran wrote: »

Again, I am not fighting for flare.I don't care what conspiracy theory you believe in. I admit that major protection is good, only time I compared it unfavourably was against other major buffs. I have also been explaining to you why buffed flare isn't the second coming you believe it is. In my playtime I think I saw pirate skellies like 3 or 4 times, not to mention that you rarely if ever hear about people running steadfast hero or immortal warrior because major protection isn't that good of a buff to dedicate a precious monster set or 5 piece bonus for.

The reason why you don't see those being used more often is because of the sacrifice, as you states, which is the while point. Major protection has always required sacrifice to get, and one skill slot giving it passively is a huge reversal.

It's already been pointed out above mathematically just how around major protection still is.

I feel like I should clarify - the purpose of my posts was not to indicate that major protection is too strong to be on flare. I wasn’t really commenting on that directly, I was more trying to clarify the area of mitigations and how they stack and the relative strength of doing so.

Plus, even though I am providing direct comparisons of the benefit but there is the contextual question of how much a certain benefit is actually worth it to your build. Mathematics can inform the choice, but there are still many subjective, build dependent factors. Mathematics can tell us how strong something may be in objective terms, but that strength can be meaningless if it doesn’t actually synergise with what a build is trying to achieve.
Example: major intellect and major endurance are objectively as strong as each other. Does that mean I should value major intellect as much as major endurance on a stam build? No

So I would agree with the following:

Xahran wrote: »

Even though mathematically, according to the posts of our versed guy here ExistingRug61, Skelly should be superior to sets like Domihaus, Zaan, Balorgh on cheap ults, etc. But that's because mathematics doesn't dictate how the meta works in pvp, and in pvp damage is superior to survivability in a lot of situations. I explained already why trading mage or hunter for flare has its costs and drawbacks. This doesn't mean that flare is the worse option, it just means it is an option with clear benefits and drawbacks, unlike what you said about it rendering mage and hunter useless.

In fact, I myself am doing this. Mathematically, major protection is strong like any other major buff. But in the current magblade build I am tweaking, it doesn’t actually provide any real benefit - I will still be too squishy for the extra mitigation to save me in most scenarios as most burst (if it hits) already exceeds my eHP by more than the 11.1% adding major protection would give me. But extra damage might just mean I can win a fight where I otherwise would just fall short. So I will still use magelight.

JasonWangTaiwan

I don't think it need to be changed for now since shield count resistance and protection lower to 10% so for some class already can't simply 5 piece light armor because of low mobility.