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So about flare and major protection

DrSlaughtr
DrSlaughtr
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This is still something that needs to be looked at. Major protection is too powerful (yes even still) to just give passively. Minor would be better and more inpine.

"Oh but I don't want to slot it but now I will."

This is exactly the problem. People will run it for the buff, not the actual skill. Make the skill better. Add a minor buff or a major buff that's already offered passively. Major Pro is just too strong.
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  • EF321
    EF321
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    This is exactly the problem. People will run it for the buff, not the actual skill.

    So, like mage light and expert hunter...
  • WrathOfInnos
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    EF321 wrote: »
    This is exactly the problem. People will run it for the buff, not the actual skill.

    So, like mage light and expert hunter...

    Change mage light and expert hunter to minor prophecy and minor savagery :p

    In seriousness, nobody would use Flare if it gave Minor Protection. That is too easy to obtain other ways, better ways. It would be entirely useless on Templar and Warden, and I doubt many would choose to slot it over Temporal Guard (easier to fit since you only need one active ult and it also gives the shield while blocking).

    You could maybe make an argument for a unique mitigation buff somewhere between 5 and 10% but that would also make it stackable with both forms of protection allowing for some very tanky builds.
    Edited by WrathOfInnos on July 28, 2021 1:57PM
  • Abyssmol
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    Leave Flare the way it is now. Major protection is only 10% mitigation at base. It is much less mitigation for tankier players due to the multiplicative effect. The change would help the players that are dying with no counter to NB stupid burst damage. Stealth detection skills should be powerful to begin with. You are slotting one skill to combat only one class.

    If you make Flare useless again then consider imposing major penalties to cloak. The game has become hide and seek online!
  • Hotdog_23
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    Major protection is strong but it’s only 10% and not 30% like before. Personally, I think it’s about time we get some benefit from having to slot it for times when we encounter a NB. Sure you can use a Detect potion but sometimes I would like the freedom to use something else when fighting a NB who can use his potion more effective since he can choose what and when they want to use it.

    At least if not some unique 10% reduction like spirit guardian. Just imagine how much strong a Necro is going to be with it slotted as well.

    Stay safe everyone and ZOS please fix the green tree micromanaging :)
  • EF321
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    Abyssmol wrote: »
    You are slotting one skill to combat only one class.

    ...one class, but 75% population of Cyrodiil...
  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    EF321 wrote: »
    This is exactly the problem. People will run it for the buff, not the actual skill.

    So, like mage light and expert hunter...

    They offer the same buff you get from potions. There's a huge difference.
    In seriousness, nobody would use Flare if it gave Minor Protection.

    Then make the skill work better. Don't give away major protection as a passive. Even only giving the buff while flare is active is a better compromise.


    Abyssmol wrote: »
    Leave Flare the way it is now. Major protection is only 10% mitigation at base. It is much less mitigation for tankier players due to the multiplicative effect. The change would help the players that are dying with no counter to NB stupid burst damage. Stealth detection skills should be powerful to begin with. You are slotting one skill to combat only one class.

    If you make Flare useless again then consider imposing major penalties to cloak. The game has become hide and seek online!

    Yes it helps tanky players less which isn't the problem. The problem is that it will drastically help DDs be tankier with no cost.

    Cloak has already been nerfed in the past. All you gotta do is break free and roll dodge a telegraphed skill. By rolling backward through the NB. They're either dead or running away to find a dumber target.

    Or if it's a bomber don't get tunnel vision. They all use the same proc strategy. If you pay attention you'll see the proc more often than not. Wait for them to blow their ultimate then kill them.

    Meanwhile they are buffing mage light and expert hunter to be WAY BETTER at detection. So that's exactly how you wouldn't run flare. But now people will run a crappier skill to get a buff, rather than run either light or hunter despite working better AND buffing damage.
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  • jaws343
    jaws343
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    EF321 wrote: »
    This is exactly the problem. People will run it for the buff, not the actual skill.

    So, like mage light and expert hunter...

    They offer the same buff you get from potions. There's a huge difference.
    In seriousness, nobody would use Flare if it gave Minor Protection.

    Then make the skill work better. Don't give away major protection as a passive. Even only giving the buff while flare is active is a better compromise.


    Abyssmol wrote: »
    Leave Flare the way it is now. Major protection is only 10% mitigation at base. It is much less mitigation for tankier players due to the multiplicative effect. The change would help the players that are dying with no counter to NB stupid burst damage. Stealth detection skills should be powerful to begin with. You are slotting one skill to combat only one class.

    If you make Flare useless again then consider imposing major penalties to cloak. The game has become hide and seek online!

    Yes it helps tanky players less which isn't the problem. The problem is that it will drastically help DDs be tankier with no cost.

    Cloak has already been nerfed in the past. All you gotta do is break free and roll dodge a telegraphed skill. By rolling backward through the NB. They're either dead or running away to find a dumber target.

    Or if it's a bomber don't get tunnel vision. They all use the same proc strategy. If you pay attention you'll see the proc more often than not. Wait for them to blow their ultimate then kill them.

    Meanwhile they are buffing mage light and expert hunter to be WAY BETTER at detection. So that's exactly how you wouldn't run flare. But now people will run a crappier skill to get a buff, rather than run either light or hunter despite working better AND buffing damage.

    You say with no cost, but giving up a bar slot is a pretty high cost. And it would only be effective on one bar, unless they double bar and give up two bar slots.
  • DrSlaughtr
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    jaws343 wrote: »
    EF321 wrote: »
    This is exactly the problem. People will run it for the buff, not the actual skill.

    So, like mage light and expert hunter...

    They offer the same buff you get from potions. There's a huge difference.
    In seriousness, nobody would use Flare if it gave Minor Protection.

    Then make the skill work better. Don't give away major protection as a passive. Even only giving the buff while flare is active is a better compromise.


    Abyssmol wrote: »
    Leave Flare the way it is now. Major protection is only 10% mitigation at base. It is much less mitigation for tankier players due to the multiplicative effect. The change would help the players that are dying with no counter to NB stupid burst damage. Stealth detection skills should be powerful to begin with. You are slotting one skill to combat only one class.

    If you make Flare useless again then consider imposing major penalties to cloak. The game has become hide and seek online!

    Yes it helps tanky players less which isn't the problem. The problem is that it will drastically help DDs be tankier with no cost.

    Cloak has already been nerfed in the past. All you gotta do is break free and roll dodge a telegraphed skill. By rolling backward through the NB. They're either dead or running away to find a dumber target.

    Or if it's a bomber don't get tunnel vision. They all use the same proc strategy. If you pay attention you'll see the proc more often than not. Wait for them to blow their ultimate then kill them.

    Meanwhile they are buffing mage light and expert hunter to be WAY BETTER at detection. So that's exactly how you wouldn't run flare. But now people will run a crappier skill to get a buff, rather than run either light or hunter despite working better AND buffing damage.

    You say with no cost, but giving up a bar slot is a pretty high cost. And it would only be effective on one bar, unless they double bar and give up two bar slots.

    I run multiple skills that i barely use. This is the game.
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  • mikey_reach
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    Hotdog_23 wrote: »
    Major protection is strong but it’s only 10% and not 30% like before. Personally, I think it’s about time we get some benefit from having to slot it for times when we encounter a NB. Sure you can use a Detect potion but sometimes I would like the freedom to use something else when fighting a NB who can use his potion more effective since he can choose what and when they want to use it.

    At least if not some unique 10% reduction like spirit guardian. Just imagine how much strong a Necro is going to be with it slotted as well.

    Stay safe everyone and ZOS please fix the green tree micromanaging :)

    The problem is that even though its only 10% and not 30% as before is that the game has been reworked in a way that major protection still feels like the old major protection in terms of efficiency for what it did at the time. We dont have as much mitigation as before. And remember we still get another 10% damage mitigation at base which stacks with flare, multiplicative sure but still.
  • EF321
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    EF321 wrote: »
    This is exactly the problem. People will run it for the buff, not the actual skill.

    So, like mage light and expert hunter...

    They offer the same buff you get from potions. There's a huge difference.


    Please provide recipe for potions that give 5% increased max magicka or minor berserk. Or provide guild passives.
  • Abyssmol
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    EF321 wrote: »
    EF321 wrote: »
    This is exactly the problem. People will run it for the buff, not the actual skill.

    So, like mage light and expert hunter...

    They offer the same buff you get from potions. There's a huge difference.


    Please provide recipe for potions that give 5% increased max magicka or minor berserk. Or provide guild passives.

    7% increase max magicka (5% + 2% for slotting the skill)
  • Twohothardware
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    This change needs to go. If you want to buff Flare increase the radius it reveals targets and reduce the cost. Or at the very least make it like Psijic Skills where you only get the added protection for like 3 seconds after activating the skill.

    Adding a passive 10% damage reduction just for slotting it means all the tanky wardens and necros will have it slotted back bar because both classes can easily make room on their bar space. Combine that with the Psijic Ult and you get Major and Minor Protection at all times.
  • Abyssmol
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    EF321 wrote: »
    This is exactly the problem. People will run it for the buff, not the actual skill.

    So, like mage light and expert hunter...

    They offer the same buff you get from potions. There's a huge difference.
    In seriousness, nobody would use Flare if it gave Minor Protection.

    Then make the skill work better. Don't give away major protection as a passive. Even only giving the buff while flare is active is a better compromise.


    Abyssmol wrote: »
    Leave Flare the way it is now. Major protection is only 10% mitigation at base. It is much less mitigation for tankier players due to the multiplicative effect. The change would help the players that are dying with no counter to NB stupid burst damage. Stealth detection skills should be powerful to begin with. You are slotting one skill to combat only one class.

    If you make Flare useless again then consider imposing major penalties to cloak. The game has become hide and seek online!

    Yes it helps tanky players less which isn't the problem. The problem is that it will drastically help DDs be tankier with no cost.

    Cloak has already been nerfed in the past. All you gotta do is break free and roll dodge a telegraphed skill. By rolling backward through the NB. They're either dead or running away to find a dumber target.

    Or if it's a bomber don't get tunnel vision. They all use the same proc strategy. If you pay attention you'll see the proc more often than not. Wait for them to blow their ultimate then kill them.

    Meanwhile they are buffing mage light and expert hunter to be WAY BETTER at detection. So that's exactly how you wouldn't run flare. But now people will run a crappier skill to get a buff, rather than run either light or hunter despite working better AND buffing damage.

    Well that's the idea isn't it? DD players would be a little tankier and not be one shot by a NB out of stealth. Even NB can use the skill if they think is so great to have one slot just for this, which I doubt it! Come to think of it NB can slot flare too and waste one slot. ZOS brilliant!!!
  • Twohothardware
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    Also those saying this is just like the passive bonuses from Mage Light and Expert Hunter it’s not even close. 10% damage reduction in PvP is way more benefit.
  • UnassumingNoob
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    I don’t see any issue with it. I can’t find a character that could actually run it. The opportunity cost is bar space - which is at a premium.
  • propertyOfUndefined
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    I personally think it's fine. Give players more options for build diversity.

    A skill slot is a big deal.
  • itscompton
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    I don’t see any issue with it. I can’t find a character that could actually run it. The opportunity cost is bar space - which is at a premium.

    Maybe for your builds and playstyle, but there will be tons of tanky high recovery Necro trolls that have plenty of room to slot it with DB, Boneyard, and Blastbones being all that's needed for offense. They can have spirit guardian, flare, and the Psijic ult on the back bar for huge mitigation as they kite and once they've let people run all their resources out futilely chasing they flip bars and drop their 3 move AOE burst combo for the kills. If anyone chasing is still alive they just flip to the defensive bar and start kiting again.
    This is already a thing on the live servers but it's going to be much easier to do successfully in the next patch with the extra mitigation from flare and battle spirit allowing Necros to shift builds towards even more sustain or upping their own damage.
    Edited by itscompton on July 28, 2021 8:52PM
  • DrSlaughtr
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    Abyssmol wrote: »
    EF321 wrote: »
    This is exactly the problem. People will run it for the buff, not the actual skill.

    So, like mage light and expert hunter...

    They offer the same buff you get from potions. There's a huge difference.
    In seriousness, nobody would use Flare if it gave Minor Protection.

    Then make the skill work better. Don't give away major protection as a passive. Even only giving the buff while flare is active is a better compromise.


    Abyssmol wrote: »
    Leave Flare the way it is now. Major protection is only 10% mitigation at base. It is much less mitigation for tankier players due to the multiplicative effect. The change would help the players that are dying with no counter to NB stupid burst damage. Stealth detection skills should be powerful to begin with. You are slotting one skill to combat only one class.

    If you make Flare useless again then consider imposing major penalties to cloak. The game has become hide and seek online!

    Yes it helps tanky players less which isn't the problem. The problem is that it will drastically help DDs be tankier with no cost.

    Cloak has already been nerfed in the past. All you gotta do is break free and roll dodge a telegraphed skill. By rolling backward through the NB. They're either dead or running away to find a dumber target.

    Or if it's a bomber don't get tunnel vision. They all use the same proc strategy. If you pay attention you'll see the proc more often than not. Wait for them to blow their ultimate then kill them.

    Meanwhile they are buffing mage light and expert hunter to be WAY BETTER at detection. So that's exactly how you wouldn't run flare. But now people will run a crappier skill to get a buff, rather than run either light or hunter despite working better AND buffing damage.

    Well that's the idea isn't it? DD players would be a little tankier and not be one shot by a NB out of stealth. Even NB can use the skill if they think is so great to have one slot just for this, which I doubt it! Come to think of it NB can slot flare too and waste one slot. ZOS brilliant!!!

    No one is getting one shot out of stealth unless they're 22k health with garbage sets
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  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    EF321 wrote: »
    EF321 wrote: »
    This is exactly the problem. People will run it for the buff, not the actual skill.

    So, like mage light and expert hunter...

    They offer the same buff you get from potions. There's a huge difference.


    Please provide recipe for potions that give 5% increased max magicka or minor berserk. Or provide guild passives.

    Again what's the argument here? Mage light and expert hunter are superior in every way. So run those. Or ask to have flare have similar abilities added.

    You're also ignoring the support passives that give big time recovery for slotting a skill.

    If these two skills are superior in function, and they offer great effects, why would you run flare? You wouldn't unless it gives you an op buff that shouldn't be given passively.
    Edited by DrSlaughtr on July 28, 2021 9:01PM
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  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    I don’t see any issue with it. I can’t find a character that could actually run it. The opportunity cost is bar space - which is at a premium.

    I have to run 2 skills specifically to counter necros and wardens. This is the game.
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  • WrathOfInnos
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    itscompton wrote: »
    I don’t see any issue with it. I can’t find a character that could actually run it. The opportunity cost is bar space - which is at a premium.

    Maybe for your builds and playstyle, but there will be tons of tanky high recovery Necro trolls that have plenty of room to slot it with DB, Boneyard, and Blastbones being all that's needed for offense. They can have spirit guardian, flare, and the Psijic ult on the back bar for huge mitigation as they kite and once they've let people run all their resources out futilely chasing they flip bars and drop their 3 move AOE burst combo for the kills. If anyone chasing is still alive they just flip to the defensive bar and start kiting again.
    This is already a thing on the live servers but it's going to be much easier to do successfully in the next patch with the extra mitigation from flare and battle spirit allowing Necros to shift builds towards even more sustain or upping their own damage.

    Thank you for mentioning Spirit Guardian. That is a skill that gives 10% mitigation to the user, in addition to its primary function of healing. Sure you have to cast it every 16s, but it applies to both bars while being slotted only on one. SG is the perfect example of why Major Protection on Flare is fine.
  • DrSlaughtr
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    I personally think it's fine. Give players more options for build diversity.

    A skill slot is a big deal.

    It is a big deal. So why not run skills that work better at reveal, offer better buffs, and more damage? Maybe it's because you get those buffs from pots and the 5% damage on hunter is niche. The mage light mag boost is great but most players are Stam.

    If you're goal is to run the best skill against nightblades, that's mage light and hunter, not flare. But people will forgo those because it's not about NBs. It's about free major protection.

    Build diversity would be best served making all three skills similar in power level, not making one competey over the top, which WILL get abused by necros and templars. 3 months from now people will be screaming about flare when they tire of unkillable mitigation machines
    Edited by DrSlaughtr on July 28, 2021 9:10PM
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  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    itscompton wrote: »
    I don’t see any issue with it. I can’t find a character that could actually run it. The opportunity cost is bar space - which is at a premium.

    Maybe for your builds and playstyle, but there will be tons of tanky high recovery Necro trolls that have plenty of room to slot it with DB, Boneyard, and Blastbones being all that's needed for offense. They can have spirit guardian, flare, and the Psijic ult on the back bar for huge mitigation as they kite and once they've let people run all their resources out futilely chasing they flip bars and drop their 3 move AOE burst combo for the kills. If anyone chasing is still alive they just flip to the defensive bar and start kiting again.
    This is already a thing on the live servers but it's going to be much easier to do successfully in the next patch with the extra mitigation from flare and battle spirit allowing Necros to shift builds towards even more sustain or upping their own damage.

    Thank you for mentioning Spirit Guardian. That is a skill that gives 10% mitigation to the user, in addition to its primary function of healing. Sure you have to cast it every 16s, but it applies to both bars while being slotted only on one. SG is the perfect example of why Major Protection on Flare is fine.

    Actually it's the opposite. Except for Necro troll players everyone acknowledges how ridiculous they are to kill because of skills like spirit guardian. The answer isn't to give everyone the same mitigation, it's to nerf it from guardian.
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  • spacefracking
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    Abyssmol wrote: »
    Leave Flare the way it is now. Major protection is only 10% mitigation at base. It is much less mitigation for tankier players due to the multiplicative effect. The change would help the players that are dying with no counter to NB stupid burst damage. Stealth detection skills should be powerful to begin with. You are slotting one skill to combat only one class.

    If you make Flare useless again then consider imposing major penalties to cloak. The game has become hide and seek online!

    ^^^^^ this guy knows the math, and is correct. Finishing returns on each mitigation buff and debuff. Only resist and pen are additive. Speaking of which, eternal major breach from weakness to elements is an apocalyptic change for cyrodiil
  • DrSlaughtr
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    Abyssmol wrote: »
    Leave Flare the way it is now. Major protection is only 10% mitigation at base. It is much less mitigation for tankier players due to the multiplicative effect. The change would help the players that are dying with no counter to NB stupid burst damage. Stealth detection skills should be powerful to begin with. You are slotting one skill to combat only one class.

    If you make Flare useless again then consider imposing major penalties to cloak. The game has become hide and seek online!

    ^^^^^ this guy knows the math, and is correct. Finishing returns on each mitigation buff and debuff. Only resist and pen are additive. Speaking of which, eternal major breach from weakness to elements is an apocalyptic change for cyrodiil

    As multiple have said, no one cares about a 45k tank having free major protection. The issue is the 30k DD (especially Necro) getting another route to being a tank that can drop 20k executes.
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  • WrathOfInnos
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    Abyssmol wrote: »
    Leave Flare the way it is now. Major protection is only 10% mitigation at base. It is much less mitigation for tankier players due to the multiplicative effect. The change would help the players that are dying with no counter to NB stupid burst damage. Stealth detection skills should be powerful to begin with. You are slotting one skill to combat only one class.

    If you make Flare useless again then consider imposing major penalties to cloak. The game has become hide and seek online!

    ^^^^^ this guy knows the math, and is correct. Finishing returns on each mitigation buff and debuff. Only resist and pen are additive. Speaking of which, eternal major breach from weakness to elements is an apocalyptic change for cyrodiil

    As multiple have said, no one cares about a 45k tank having free major protection. The issue is the 30k DD (especially Necro) getting another route to being a tank that can drop 20k executes.

    If you slot Flare that execute will only hit for 18k :D
  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    Abyssmol wrote: »
    Leave Flare the way it is now. Major protection is only 10% mitigation at base. It is much less mitigation for tankier players due to the multiplicative effect. The change would help the players that are dying with no counter to NB stupid burst damage. Stealth detection skills should be powerful to begin with. You are slotting one skill to combat only one class.

    If you make Flare useless again then consider imposing major penalties to cloak. The game has become hide and seek online!

    ^^^^^ this guy knows the math, and is correct. Finishing returns on each mitigation buff and debuff. Only resist and pen are additive. Speaking of which, eternal major breach from weakness to elements is an apocalyptic change for cyrodiil

    As multiple have said, no one cares about a 45k tank having free major protection. The issue is the 30k DD (especially Necro) getting another route to being a tank that can drop 20k executes.

    If you slot Flare that execute will only hit for 18k :D

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  • Jierdanit
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    EF321 wrote: »
    This is exactly the problem. People will run it for the buff, not the actual skill.

    So, like mage light and expert hunter...

    Change mage light and expert hunter to minor prophecy and minor savagery :p

    In seriousness, nobody would use Flare if it gave Minor Protection. That is too easy to obtain other ways, better ways. It would be entirely useless on Templar and Warden, and I doubt many would choose to slot it over Temporal Guard (easier to fit since you only need one active ult and it also gives the shield while blocking).

    There is a huge difference between major prophecy / savagery and major protection in terms of how easy it is to get though.

    You can get get major prophecy on 4 and major savagery on 5 different skills, you have a set that passively grants the buff for both and you can easily get either by using a potion.

    major protection on the other hand you can get on 3 ultimates, 2 of which are barely used at all and on 1 skill that requires you to have corpses around and still only gives you 1 second of major protection per corpse.

    So while it is absolutely normal to see someone having a 100% uptime on major prophecy or savagery even without running mage light or camo hunter, major protection is rare to see at all and if you have it its nearly always only for a short time.

    And to all the people who say that flare wont be run because you cant afford to waste the bar space for it, people are running mage light or camo hunter on their builds right now, even though it is really easy to get it in other ways, why do you think they would not just put flare on their backbar for 10% less incoming dmg?


    PC/EU, StamSorc Main
  • Ratzkifal
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    Why not make it passively give both Major Prophecy and Savagery? That makes it more comparable to the other skills but also gives it a distinct advantage when looking at hybrid builds who don't get comfortable access to a lot of buffs for both magicka and stamina.
    This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.
  • DrSlaughtr
    DrSlaughtr
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    Jierdanit wrote: »
    EF321 wrote: »
    This is exactly the problem. People will run it for the buff, not the actual skill.

    So, like mage light and expert hunter...

    Change mage light and expert hunter to minor prophecy and minor savagery :p

    In seriousness, nobody would use Flare if it gave Minor Protection. That is too easy to obtain other ways, better ways. It would be entirely useless on Templar and Warden, and I doubt many would choose to slot it over Temporal Guard (easier to fit since you only need one active ult and it also gives the shield while blocking).

    There is a huge difference between major prophecy / savagery and major protection in terms of how easy it is to get though.

    You can get get major prophecy on 4 and major savagery on 5 different skills, you have a set that passively grants the buff for both and you can easily get either by using a potion.

    major protection on the other hand you can get on 3 ultimates, 2 of which are barely used at all and on 1 skill that requires you to have corpses around and still only gives you 1 second of major protection per corpse.

    So while it is absolutely normal to see someone having a 100% uptime on major prophecy or savagery even without running mage light or camo hunter, major protection is rare to see at all and if you have it its nearly always only for a short time.

    And to all the people who say that flare wont be run because you cant afford to waste the bar space for it, people are running mage light or camo hunter on their builds right now, even though it is really easy to get it in other ways, why do you think they would not just put flare on their backbar for 10% less incoming dmg?

    They're going to point to the mag increase of mage light and the minor berserk on expert hunter (that only procs from crit flank damage) is super powerful so they need major protection on flare to make it work slotting.

    The issue with that argument is 2 fold.

    Off the bat they're saying the buffs and perks of mage light and hunter are super powerful.

    Meanwhile they are big time buffing light and hunter's reveal to way outperform revealing flare. Even if you removed all buffs and perks from those skills, they are immensely better than flare.

    Given those two things, why would you run a lesser skill?

    Oh wait. You won't run it for the reveal. You'll run it for the free major protection. It has nothing to do with nightblades.
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