Zenimax please Buff/Rework Redguard

francesinhalover

It is just not worth using them has a dps at the moment, but i love the race so much... But believe me in my opinion you did a good job with the other races.

You can remove the 6% weapon damage cost and add 150 or 250 weapon damage , or remove the snare reduction passive... it would be amazing and help the race keep it's master of weapons identity... just please, give redguards some attention.

There's just no reason for me to play redguard when orc, Khajit , Dark elf , bosmer exists.

Extinct_Solo_Player

francesinhalover wrote: »

It is just not worth using them has a dps at the moment, but i love the race so much... But believe me in my opinion you did a good job with the other races.

You can remove the 6% weapon damage cost and add 150 or 250 weapon damage... it would be amazing and help the race keep it's master of weapons identity... just please, give redguards some attention.

There's just no reason for me to play redguard when orc, Khajit , Dark elf , bosmer exists.

it would be better if they changed the useless snare reduction passive.

Ratzkifal

Redguards definitely need a bump. Unless something fundamentally changes about the game, they will always be a bad choice for PvE. Bosmer are sitting in pretty much the same boat, although the additional physical pen does help a bit (not much, but a bit).

The main issue is that extra sustain does not translate into extra damage once you have "enough". If New Moon Acolyte had an even greater penalty for a greater reward, it might be possible to give Redguards and Bosmer something to work with, however the result of that will always be that the other races will pick up that set and have supports (tanks and healers) supply even more sustain to them. It's a very fine line to walk and I doubt ZOS can fine tune balance like that, especially considering how heavy-handed all of their changes usually are - but in theory there exists a state where damage support sets would yield higher group dps with regular dps setups on nonsustain races than sustain support sets for lowsustain dps setups on nonsustain races, with sustain races on lowsustain dps setups pulling even with them. In practise there are just too many moving parts here.

ZOS should give each race a clear and meaningful strength so you can pick your race according to your needs. Since extra sustain doesn't translate into damage, the Redguard strength of having cheaper weapon costs doesn't hold up and certainly doesn't feel impactful, even if it is all mathematically balanced. Also weapon skills are not quite as desireable that you would use enough of them for this passive to pull its weight.

Thematically Redguards are the weapon masters (specifically melee weapons, but I personally don't think we need to be too strict about that to encourage playing the way you want), so their passives should reflect that. I'd say remove the snare reduction and change the cost passive to be bigger but only apply to weapon ultimates. I'd say around 20% cheaper should be fine. That way you are being rewarded for using a weapon ultimate over your class ultimate while also giving Redguards something unique only they have. Right now both Bosmer and Redguards are sitting in the exact same niche. Why is that? Also can while we are at it, can we give Bosmer back their stealth? Detection is a pointless passive to have and stealth used to be at the core of their identity right up there with archery.

Cendrillion21

Agree completely, I would love to play a Redguard but right now, why would I?

Jolsyf

*cries in imperial*

YandereGirlfriend

Jolsyf wrote: »

*cries in imperial*

Say what??

Imperial is BiS as far as I'm concerned for PvP.

And in PvE they make competent characters in anything and are on the better choices for tanks.

Jolsyf

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Jolsyf wrote: »

*cries in imperial*

Say what??

Imperial is BiS as far as I'm concerned for PvP.

And in PvE they make competent characters in anything and are on the better choices for tanks.

ok my bad, *cries in imperial stam dps*

Soulshine

They still have their uses even in current state. One of my tanks is a Redguard; I don't worry about dps crazy numbers with her, and get some great sustain to manage everything else she does. She is also a lore breaking necro, which gives me a good laugh when people freak out about it...

Monte_Cristo

Soulshine wrote: »

They still have their uses even in current state. One of my tanks is a Redguard; I don't worry about dps crazy numbers with her, and get some great sustain to manage everything else she does. She is also a lore breaking necro, which gives me a good laugh when people freak out about it...

Breaking the lore.

Grandchamp1989

They are currently one of the strongest Tank races.

The cheaper taunt/Wall of elements, the passive stamina gain for dropping WoE..

Please dont touch that.
Love my redguard Tank.

If anyone needs a proper buff it is Nords and Argonians who never really recovered from their nerfs.
Those are a bucket of “meh”

Septimus_Magna

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

They are currently one of the strongest Tank races.

The cheaper taunt/Wall of elements, the passive stamina gain for dropping WoE..

Please dont touch that.
Love my redguard Tank.

If anyone needs a proper buff it is Nords and Argonians who never really recovered from their nerfs.
Those are a bucket of “meh”

That is a very small sustain buff you're talking about, WoE is cast every 14s and S&B weapon skills are cast every 12s.
You save 8% of 3780 magicka which comes down to 302 over 14s so the equivalent of 43 mag regen.
For stam its 8% 4230 stam which comes down to 346 over 12s so the equivalent of 58 stam regen.
This is calculated without passives that reduce ability costs so in reality the values are even lower.

Breton is far better at sustain (and spell resistance) because it reduces the cost of all magicka based skills and you get mag regen on top of that.

Im not saying that the weapon ability cost should be removed but its just a low value compared to the Breton or Imperial passives.

For me its still a mystery why Redguard, the weapon master race, is the worst race for weapon damage.
They should at least some weapon damage or critical chance to the racial passives.

phaneub17_ESO

Could change the 8% reduction from weapon cost into all stamina cost, you lose out on staff weapon abilities, but expand to all stamina abilities, blocking, dodge roll, sprinting, and sneaking drains. Imperial's 6% reduction still has the upper hand since it applies to all of the above mentioned, magicka, health, and ultimate costs as well.

alanmatillab16_ESO

Just stop with the nerf/buff calls or do you want every class / race to be exactly the same because that is the only way to keep that sort of player happy.

starkerealm

Jolsyf wrote: »

YandereGirlfriend wrote: »

Jolsyf wrote: »

*cries in imperial*

Say what??

Imperial is BiS as far as I'm concerned for PvP.

And in PvE they make competent characters in anything and are on the better choices for tanks.

ok my bad, *cries in imperial stam dps*

Imperial Stam DPS is still nice and chunky. Extra Health is nice to have. Extra Stam is great. Cost discount on everything. What's not to like?

Imperials are an excellent all rounder right now. Even for Mag DPS or Healing if you're so inclined. You're still going to need stam for breaking free, dodging, sprinting, ect, and your cost discounts still carry over. It's solid.

There's certainly room for Redguards to have a very aggressive Weapon skill line focus.

Legitimately, Redguards could be -8% to weapon skill costs (ult and normal), +Weapon/Spell Damage to Weapon Skills, +Stam, and still be balanced in line with where Imperials are right now, without taking their spotlight.

Ironically, the ones that are faring worst right now are Bretons. Their -7% Mag costs look pretty weak in comparison to the Imperial discount.

Grandchamp1989

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

They are currently one of the strongest Tank races.

The cheaper taunt/Wall of elements, the passive stamina gain for dropping WoE..

Please dont touch that.
Love my redguard Tank.

If anyone needs a proper buff it is Nords and Argonians who never really recovered from their nerfs.
Those are a bucket of “meh”

That is a very small sustain buff you're talking about, WoE is cast every 14s and S&B weapon skills are cast every 12s.
You save 8% of 3780 magicka which comes down to 302 over 14s so the equivalent of 43 mag regen.
For stam its 8% 4230 stam which comes down to 346 over 12s so the equivalent of 58 stam regen.
This is calculated without passives that reduce ability costs so in reality the values are even lower.

Breton is far better at sustain (and spell resistance) because it reduces the cost of all magicka based skills and you get mag regen on top of that.

Im not saying that the weapon ability cost should be removed but its just a low value compared to the Breton or Imperial passives.

For me its still a mystery why Redguard, the weapon master race, is the worst race for weapon damage.
They should at least some weapon damage or critical chance to the racial passives.

I cannot agree with this, Tanks in hard content live and did by their Stam.

When you Block your stam sustain becomes 0 which is why Tank spec into Mag sustain.

Redguard racial passives effectively give you 1000+ stam WHILE blocking every 5 seconds which is huuuge.
It literally let you convert Magicka (WoE) into stam while Blocking!! The only other skill that allows this is dragonknights igneus shield with the Helping hand passive!

You no longer have to be a DK to convert your mag into stam while blocking if you are a redguard, I can not tell you how huge that is, and 1000+ stam every 5 seconds is darn near perma Block with 7 sturdy. Not trivial at all.

On top of that your main taunt ans WoE is Also cheaper. Redguard are so good Tanks its disgusting.

Not every race needs to be “DPS” race I love my monster of a Redguard tank.

redlink1979

@ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_GinaBruno

Auzsi

They should just simply remove combat stats from racials and leave in only the race specific traits. The whole system is toxic and unbalanced. Under the umbrella of this system there will always going to be weak races and unhappy players.

francesinhalover

Ratzkifal wrote: »

Redguards definitely need a bump. Unless something fundamentally changes about the game, they will always be a bad choice for PvE. Bosmer are sitting in pretty much the same boat, although the additional physical pen does help a bit (not much, but a bit).

The main issue is that extra sustain does not translate into extra damage once you have "enough". If New Moon Acolyte had an even greater penalty for a greater reward, it might be possible to give Redguards and Bosmer something to work with, however the result of that will always be that the other races will pick up that set and have supports (tanks and healers) supply even more sustain to them. It's a very fine line to walk and I doubt ZOS can fine tune balance like that, especially considering how heavy-handed all of their changes usually are - but in theory there exists a state where damage support sets would yield higher group dps with regular dps setups on nonsustain races than sustain support sets for lowsustain dps setups on nonsustain races, with sustain races on lowsustain dps setups pulling even with them. In practise there are just too many moving parts here.

ZOS should give each race a clear and meaningful strength so you can pick your race according to your needs. Since extra sustain doesn't translate into damage, the Redguard strength of having cheaper weapon costs doesn't hold up and certainly doesn't feel impactful, even if it is all mathematically balanced. Also weapon skills are not quite as desireable that you would use enough of them for this passive to pull its weight.

Thematically Redguards are the weapon masters (specifically melee weapons, but I personally don't think we need to be too strict about that to encourage playing the way you want), so their passives should reflect that. I'd say remove the snare reduction and change the cost passive to be bigger but only apply to weapon ultimates. I'd say around 20% cheaper should be fine. That way you are being rewarded for using a weapon ultimate over your class ultimate while also giving Redguards something unique only they have. Right now both Bosmer and Redguards are sitting in the exact same niche. Why is that? Also can while we are at it, can we give Bosmer back their stealth? Detection is a pointless passive to have and stealth used to be at the core of their identity right up there with archery.

Ok you got me untill you said 20% weapon ultimate, That's legit just useless outside maybe pvp?
People either use class ultimates or fighters guild/werewolf.

Bosmer having stealth or not doesn't really bother me, since stealth detection is also really good on pvp. But yeah stealth does fit the race lore better. The issue is , it also fits khajit, so will both races have the same passive again?

francesinhalover

Jolsyf wrote: »

*cries in imperial*

Imperial gives you ultimate cost reduction, Skill cost reduction , cost reductions to dodge, bash.

Plus 2000 hp - this means you can just use stam + regen food and ignore the hp + stam food.
That's a good ammount of sustain.

francesinhalover

alanmatillab16_ESO wrote: »

Just stop with the nerf/buff calls or do you want every class / race to be exactly the same because that is the only way to keep that sort of player happy.

Sure, that way people can play what they want.

I mean high elfs have weapon dmg now, so you can also play them has stam, I didn't see anyone complain. because it was a great change,

francesinhalover

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

They are currently one of the strongest Tank races.

The cheaper taunt/Wall of elements, the passive stamina gain for dropping WoE..

Please dont touch that.
Love my redguard Tank.

If anyone needs a proper buff it is Nords and Argonians who never really recovered from their nerfs.
Those are a bucket of “meh”

That is a very small sustain buff you're talking about, WoE is cast every 14s and S&B weapon skills are cast every 12s.
You save 8% of 3780 magicka which comes down to 302 over 14s so the equivalent of 43 mag regen.
For stam its 8% 4230 stam which comes down to 346 over 12s so the equivalent of 58 stam regen.
This is calculated without passives that reduce ability costs so in reality the values are even lower.

Breton is far better at sustain (and spell resistance) because it reduces the cost of all magicka based skills and you get mag regen on top of that.

Im not saying that the weapon ability cost should be removed but its just a low value compared to the Breton or Imperial passives.

For me its still a mystery why Redguard, the weapon master race, is the worst race for weapon damage.
They should at least some weapon damage or critical chance to the racial passives.

I cannot agree with this, Tanks in hard content live and did by their Stam.

When you Block your stam sustain becomes 0 which is why Tank spec into Mag sustain.

Redguard racial passives effectively give you 1000+ stam WHILE blocking every 5 seconds which is huuuge.
It literally let you convert Magicka (WoE) into stam while Blocking!! The only other skill that allows this is dragonknights igneus shield with the Helping hand passive!

You no longer have to be a DK to convert your mag into stam while blocking if you are a redguard, I can not tell you how huge that is, and 1000+ stam every 5 seconds is darn near perma Block with 7 sturdy. Not trivial at all.

On top of that your main taunt ans WoE is Also cheaper. Redguard are so good Tanks its disgusting.

Not every race needs to be “DPS” race I love my monster of a Redguard tank.

That's cool and all , but in the lore redguards were and are damage focused races.

You can keep your stam every 5 secs, what people want changed is the weapon costs that feel useless.

Castagere

I just finished watching two youtube videos about Redguards. You should really see them. One is called Sword Singers and the other one is The Ra Gada. All the lore showing how they really are the swordmasters is amazing. And sword singers would add their spirit and souls into their weapons. That was their magic. These weapons would have a glow to them. In many ways. They were like the Jedi of Tamriel. And the clothing and armor they wore are also amazing. Redguard in this game are nothing like they are. They should be Blade masters in this game and that means buffs. to all bladed weapons. And that means the Sword Singer armor set instead of a lazy two-hand weapons-only buff. They would never use axes or mauls unless they want to be laughed at.

Malkiv

People that are worried about the damage through-put of Redguard racials are more than likely not going to be getting much benefit from any racial buff.

There are literally no non-meme top-tier guilds requiring people to run Khajiit, or Dunmer because of racial passives; it literally just doesn’t matter. A top-tier player will still parse over 90k in content with a Redguard in its current state. Racials aren’t what raise the floor, because the floor sees even less gain from small modifiers.

If you want racials changed because of lore reasons, then you’re just in for disappointment. People have been trying to get Morrison’s, Oblivion, or Skyrim racial matches since beta. That’s obviously not their vision for the development direction.

francesinhalover

Malkiv wrote: »

People that are worried about the damage through-put of Redguard racials are more than likely not going to be getting much benefit from any racial buff.

There are literally no non-meme top-tier guilds requiring people to run Khajiit, or Dunmer because of racial passives; it literally just doesn’t matter. A top-tier player will still parse over 90k in content with a Redguard in its current state. Racials aren’t what raise the floor, because the floor sees even less gain from small modifiers.

If you want racials changed because of lore reasons, then you’re just in for disappointment. People have been trying to get Morrison’s, Oblivion, or Skyrim racial matches since beta. That’s obviously not their vision for the development direction.

258 dmg from dark elf passive is like 5% extra dmg. It does MAKE a diference.
The whole less weapon cost and snare are just laughably bad for a race that has the best physic in the game.
Redguards don't skip leg day, why do they get 0 damage?

"People that are worried about the damage through-put of Redguard racials are more than likely not going to be getting much benefit from any racial buff." I legit have no idea why you even said this. Should we just accept a slice of pie instead of a full pie when we are hungry? We deserve that pie. WE DESERVE IT.

M4RSHM4LL0W_CL0UD

Malkiv wrote: »

People that are worried about the damage through-put of Redguard racials are more than likely not going to be getting much benefit from any racial buff.

There are literally no non-meme top-tier guilds requiring people to run Khajiit, or Dunmer because of racial passives; it literally just doesn’t matter. A top-tier player will still parse over 90k in content with a Redguard in its current state. Racials aren’t what raise the floor, because the floor sees even less gain from small modifiers.

This argument makes no sense at all. As on of those "top-tier" players who hits over 90k dps on their Redguard, I more than anyone would kill to see Redguard get a good damage buff. 6k FREE dps is not at all insignificant, and the damage gap has only increased since proc sets like Relequen now scale with weapon and spell damage. A Redguard does NOT hit that damage cap on the 21M dummy, so races without a weapon/spell damage bonus are even more at a disadvantage than before.

Not to mention, Redguard has ZERO max hp, armor, elemental resistance bonuses, making it the most fragile race in the game. They deserve something other than sustain and an absolutely useless snare reduction to compensate for it.

FrancisCrawford

The 1 character I have out of 18 who I modeled on an African-American became the weakest one I have. ::sigh::

Septimus_Magna

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Grandchamp1989 wrote: »

They are currently one of the strongest Tank races.

The cheaper taunt/Wall of elements, the passive stamina gain for dropping WoE..

Please dont touch that.
Love my redguard Tank.

If anyone needs a proper buff it is Nords and Argonians who never really recovered from their nerfs.
Those are a bucket of “meh”

That is a very small sustain buff you're talking about, WoE is cast every 14s and S&B weapon skills are cast every 12s.
You save 8% of 3780 magicka which comes down to 302 over 14s so the equivalent of 43 mag regen.
For stam its 8% 4230 stam which comes down to 346 over 12s so the equivalent of 58 stam regen.
This is calculated without passives that reduce ability costs so in reality the values are even lower.

Breton is far better at sustain (and spell resistance) because it reduces the cost of all magicka based skills and you get mag regen on top of that.

Im not saying that the weapon ability cost should be removed but its just a low value compared to the Breton or Imperial passives.

For me its still a mystery why Redguard, the weapon master race, is the worst race for weapon damage.
They should at least some weapon damage or critical chance to the racial passives.

I cannot agree with this, Tanks in hard content live and did by their Stam.

When you Block your stam sustain becomes 0 which is why Tank spec into Mag sustain.

Redguard racial passives effectively give you 1000+ stam WHILE blocking every 5 seconds which is huuuge.
It literally let you convert Magicka (WoE) into stam while Blocking!! The only other skill that allows this is dragonknights igneus shield with the Helping hand passive!

You no longer have to be a DK to convert your mag into stam while blocking if you are a redguard, I can not tell you how huge that is, and 1000+ stam every 5 seconds is darn near perma Block with 7 sturdy. Not trivial at all.

On top of that your main taunt ans WoE is Also cheaper. Redguard are so good Tanks its disgusting.

Not every race needs to be “DPS” race I love my monster of a Redguard tank.

I am not talking about the Adrenaline Rush passive that gives stam back when you deal damage, I am talking about the Martial Training passives that reduces weapon ability cost.

Adrenaline Rush is fine, there's no discussion about that.

Martial Training is pretty weak because it only affect weapon abilities, the cost of your class, guild, world, armor, alliance abilities etc, are not affected. Most tanks use 3 weapon abilities, so the other 7 abilities will cost the original value.

Theo_VVS

Don’t let this thread die!!! Redguards, from a lore perspective, in my opinion is the strongest race on tamriel. What i think they should do is really replace the snare effectiveness with 8-10% buff to all melee abilities or replace the reduction to weapon abilities to 8-10% reduction to all melee abilities.

Malkiv

francesinhalover wrote: »

258 dmg from dark elf passive is like 5% extra dmg. It does MAKE a diference.
The whole less weapon cost and snare are just laughably bad for a race that has the best physic in the game.
Redguards don't skip leg day, why do they get 0 damage?

5% extra damage of what? On a parse? On an ability? Total Spell Damage - compared to what? Because 258 Spell Damage certainly isn’t as effective as stacking Major and Minor Sorcery, which you get from Spell Power Pots and Plars, respectively. Like I said before, only on Trial Trifectas would 258 Spell Power truly matter, because margins of success for the timed components are already thin.

francesinhalover wrote: »

“People that are worried about the damage through-put of Redguard racials are more than likely not going to be getting much benefit from any racial buff." I legit have no idea why you even said this. Should we just accept a slice of pie instead of a full pie when we are hungry? We deserve that pie. WE DESERVE IT.

But this isn’t pie, and you only want it because you have an idea of what you’d like Redguards to be. Their racials do already fill a role; it’s niche, but you want to take away from those players to fulfill your ideas. My Stamden burst daddy is a Redguard, because that sustain between ults is needed to keep pressure on, and buffs up.

But the cat gif is cute.

BXR_Lonestar

They should just grant the red guards a big damage bonus when using two handed swords. I wanted them to take this approach with bosmer, except give them bonus damage when using a bow. It makes sense, its lore friendly, it fits the racial theme, and its easy to do. Not sure why there's such reluctance to do it.

francesinhalover

Malkiv wrote: »

francesinhalover wrote: »

258 dmg from dark elf passive is like 5% extra dmg. It does MAKE a diference.
The whole less weapon cost and snare are just laughably bad for a race that has the best physic in the game.
Redguards don't skip leg day, why do they get 0 damage?

5% extra damage of what? On a parse? On an ability? Total Spell Damage - compared to what? Because 258 Spell Damage certainly isn’t as effective as stacking Major and Minor Sorcery, which you get from Spell Power Pots and Plars, respectively. Like I said before, only on Trial Trifectas would 258 Spell Power truly matter, because margins of success for the timed components are already thin.

francesinhalover wrote: »

“People that are worried about the damage through-put of Redguard racials are more than likely not going to be getting much benefit from any racial buff." I legit have no idea why you even said this. Should we just accept a slice of pie instead of a full pie when we are hungry? We deserve that pie. WE DESERVE IT.

But this isn’t pie, and you only want it because you have an idea of what you’d like Redguards to be. Their racials do already fill a role; it’s niche, but you want to take away from those players to fulfill your ideas. My Stamden burst daddy is a Redguard, because that sustain between ults is needed to keep pressure on, and buffs up.

But the cat gif is cute.

bruh imagine my stam sorce has 4000 weapon dmg. those 250 are like 5% extra. Those 5% BUFF sets like relequeen.
Add 5%-8% extra dmg to every skill i have on a full rotation, do you really think 250 makes no diference now? Maybe backkkk before the proc set changes, but not now.

"But this isn’t pie, and you only want it because you have an idea of what you’d like Redguards to be."
Lmao it isn't , omg thought it was!!! crazy right? I played eso WAYYY before they butchered redguards passives.

redguard used to regen stam and have dmg, It was the best stam race in the game followed by khajit for ages, but they destroyed redguard.
The race could use a buff or a revert. there's nothing bad about it.

lmao so you play a stam class and still want redguard to stay the worse stam class in the game? that's amazing.