Does the game wants to make me feel like an idiot?

seldomseenkd

The writing in the game has took a nosedive since they started their year long adventures.

Content quotas and arbitrary deadlines always results in the butter being spread over too much bread.

Gleitfrosch

I also see a difference between Sidequest and the main quests.

I would even say that Sidequest improved. Before I had the impression that I will do everything for the NPC's without even asking for any compensation. Dialogues were like:
NPC: "my cat ran off"
Me: "I do not know you but I will save it and here are my pants and all my gold"

Now the NPC ask for help but at least they also say that they will pay me, if I help them. That gives the quests more realistic feeling.

alberichtano

As someone already pointed out (I love repeating stuff), it has to do with the fact that every new area is also a newbie starter area. They must therefor assume that anyone in the new zone is in fact new to the game, and make everthing thereafter.

It is a problematic situation for us who actually like mature conversations about the deeper issues of faith, philosophy and lore, but here we are. :-/

alberichtano

Gleitfrosch wrote: »

I also see a difference between Sidequest and the main quests.

I would even say that Sidequest improved. Before I had the impression that I will do everything for the NPC's without even asking for any compensation. Dialogues were like:
NPC: "my cat ran off"
Me: "I do not know you but I will save it and here are my pants and all my gold"

Now the NPC ask for help but at least they also say that they will pay me, if I help them. That gives the quests more realistic feeling.

Now if the quests had more choice involved...

Quest: "Save my cat!"

Option A: Save cat, take reward, yay, feeling good.
Option B: Save cat, but demand more gold to give it back, nasty opportunistic vibes.
Option C: Kill cat, lie to questgiver and give back cat's necklace as proof or memento, so you still get reward. Evil/psychotic vibes.

Makes no difference in the grand scheme of things, but at least you have a feeling of freedom and of choice according to how you imagine your character's ethics, morals and mental health to be. ;-)

VaranisArano

FluffWit wrote: »

I stopped listening in Blackwood and just skipped all dialogue after I was forced to tell Eveli I'm in the Dark Brotherhood and heard her cringey response.

It was just lazy bad writing and made me realize this story was never going to redeem itself and become something I could get invested in.

Probably a good decision, because the problems for Dark Brotherhood members get even worse. My Silencer is never doing the Blackwood quest.

Later on in the first quest, you find a note from the Dark Brotherhood matron about their new Sanctuary they are starting up. Naturally, you obey the Tenets and do not betray the Dark Brotherhood or its secrets, right? Ha, haha, no. You hand the info straight over to the authorities. Then, since one of those authorities is the traitor, the Sanctuary is attacked by the Waking Flame and lots of your Dark Brothers and Sisters die.

Yeah, my Silencer is never doing the Blackwood zone quest.

Gleitfrosch

alberichtano wrote: »

As someone already pointed out (I love repeating stuff), it has to do with the fact that every new area is also a newbie starter area. They must therefor assume that anyone in the new zone is in fact new to the game, and make everthing thereafter.

It is a problematic situation for us who actually like mature conversations about the deeper issues of faith, philosophy and lore, but here we are. :-/

That could be easily solved by giving the player the option to ask for more details or to skip them and only talk about the progress relevant things.

Michaelkeir

Danikat wrote: »

I wonder if it's part of trying to make chapter maps also function as starter maps? They think they need to explain everything because the player might be brand new to the game.

But even then some of the things they have your character asking about aren't TES lore or game mechanics or anything which might need explaining and in some cases the answer has already been made clear earlier in the conversation.

One option of course is to not click on those options, but normally I like to ask all the questions to see what additional story or lore details might come up so it's frustrating to feel like my only choices are to act like an idiot or potentially miss out on interesting info.

Pretty much this. Since most new zones are aimed at bringing in new players they have to structure the dialogue in a way that spoon feds new players information, but at the cost of also feeding veteran players the same information. It would cost to much $$$ to program the npc’s to be able to detect our story progression and deliver more immersive dialogue. So $$$ always wins in these situations.

FluffWit wrote: »

I stopped listening in Blackwood and just skipped all dialogue after I was forced to tell Eveli I'm in the Dark Brotherhood and heard her cringey response.

It was just lazy bad writing and made me realize this story was never going to redeem itself and become something I could get invested in.

I thought I was the only one who felt that way. That entire conversation left me feeling so unsatisfied. Bad writing at its finest.

FrancisCrawford

Jaimeh wrote: »

I feel like the writing has taking a plunge since summerset/elsweyr. Some of the dialogues, and hand-holding in Greymoor and Blackwood were just cringy in their obviousness and repetition.

I believe those assessments, and indeed have done little overland questing since Summerset, which is why I say "believe" rather than "share".

But there's one exception: They still know how to be funny.

alberichtano

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

I feel like the writing has taking a plunge since summerset/elsweyr. Some of the dialogues, and hand-holding in Greymoor and Blackwood were just cringy in their obviousness and repetition.

I believe those assessments, and indeed have done little overland questing since Summerset, which is why I say "believe" rather than "share".

But there's one exception: They still know how to be funny.

I wish they did... Moments not to be fun: when you enter the deadlands for the (presumably) first time, and we are supposed to be awed and horrified by it. Eveli "funnily" commenting "the smell" and how it should be named after that was a real Jar-Jar-moment for me.

DP99

VaranisArano wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

I stopped listening in Blackwood and just skipped all dialogue after I was forced to tell Eveli I'm in the Dark Brotherhood and heard her cringey response.

It was just lazy bad writing and made me realize this story was never going to redeem itself and become something I could get invested in.

Probably a good decision, because the problems for Dark Brotherhood members get even worse. My Silencer is never doing the Blackwood quest.

Later on in the first quest, you find a note from the Dark Brotherhood matron about their new Sanctuary they are starting up. Naturally, you obey the Tenets and do not betray the Dark Brotherhood or its secrets, right? Ha, haha, no. You hand the info straight over to the authorities. Then, since one of those authorities is the traitor, the Sanctuary is attacked by the Waking Flame and lots of your Dark Brothers and Sisters die.

Yeah, my Silencer is never doing the Blackwood zone quest.

You’re not really doing anything against the DB though, you’re trying to defend them against the ones who are setting them up and you’re even working with Elam Drolls to figure it out. He doesn’t like the risks that you’re talking either, but it’s what has to be done to end the threat.

DarcyMardin

I’m a writer myself and have low tolerance for bad story-telling. Many of the base game stories were pretty good, but the quality of the writing has dropped over the years. I still haven’t done the main story in Blackwood, but I never completed the main quest Western Skyrim because the story bored me so much that it wasn’t even worth chasing the skill points. Too bad…I really miss great story-telling!

Tesman85

This was one of the most grating things I had to get used to when starting playing ESO. Nobody likes being treated like an idiot (not even idiots themselves). But, as annoying as this can be, I can understand why the writers do this.

Firstly, it's the price of video games going mainstream and marketed to everyone. To get maximum sales, the game must be designed to fit the lowest common denominator. Or more bluntly put, a sizeable portion of the potential buyer base is stupid - we are talking dozens of percents here, just like in the general population. If they can't keep track of what's happening in the plot and/or find the game mechanics too hard to understand, they might well quit playing and badmouth the game to their acquaintances. And this means lost potential revenue for the publisher. Can't have that, can we?

Secondly, and less cynically, recapping everything is a way to ease the return of those players who have either not played at all for a while or played another character or storyline. They might well have forgotten the details of what was happening in that particular storyline. If an NPC tells them what the heck is going on, they don't have to look up online summaries or dig their memory too much. Thus, it's easier to hop right back into action which means that interest is also rekindled easier. So this thing can be even useful.

And, on the other extreme, I'd like to remind everyone how Morrowind or Daggerfall were. No recaps there, no hand-holding, no anything but a very sparse journal and even sparser quest directions. That had its advantages, too, like making things feel more rewarding when they were accomplished. But it was also very demanding on the player's memory and didn't exactly make it easy to return to the game after a hiatus. So, the designers seem to have chosen what they thought as a lesser evil in this case.

stybbe17b16_ESO

Tbh I don't read any of the dialogue. But I feel like this every time the game challenge me with a mini game or a puzzle. Why are these things made for toddlers?

redlink1979

This obviousness/repetitiveness in dialogues, mainly in the main quests, has been aggravated in the last chapters/dlcs and the dialogues would certainly benefit if they were a lot less repetitive.
People can be intuitive, you know ZOS?

NotaDaedraWorshipper

In Western Skyrim an early quest have Lyris sending you to check on Kilkreath Temple, which she talks a little about. Like how it's a temple of Meridia etc. On the way there you meet Fennorian, who also talks a bit about the temple and you mention you were going to warn the priests. Then with the third character you meet (this is all within a short period of time), who is a priest of Meridia, you go something like "What is the Kilkreath Temple?" 🤦

moo_2021

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I have the same criticism -- especially in Blackwood. I honestly hate every time I need to talk to Eveli because she comes across sounding like she's talking to (and spoon-feeding) a 4-year-old.

I was seriously pissed when she didn't recognize me in Wrothgar after Blackwood. It's sad.

VaranisArano

DP99 wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

FluffWit wrote: »

I stopped listening in Blackwood and just skipped all dialogue after I was forced to tell Eveli I'm in the Dark Brotherhood and heard her cringey response.

It was just lazy bad writing and made me realize this story was never going to redeem itself and become something I could get invested in.

Probably a good decision, because the problems for Dark Brotherhood members get even worse. My Silencer is never doing the Blackwood quest.

Later on in the first quest, you find a note from the Dark Brotherhood matron about their new Sanctuary they are starting up. Naturally, you obey the Tenets and do not betray the Dark Brotherhood or its secrets, right? Ha, haha, no. You hand the info straight over to the authorities. Then, since one of those authorities is the traitor, the Sanctuary is attacked by the Waking Flame and lots of your Dark Brothers and Sisters die.

Yeah, my Silencer is never doing the Blackwood zone quest.

You’re not really doing anything against the DB though, you’re trying to defend them against the ones who are setting them up and you’re even working with Elam Drolls to figure it out. He doesn’t like the risks that you’re talking either, but it’s what has to be done to end the threat.

Sorry, but no. If that's what we were doing, then there was no need to

hand over that letter to the authorities, betraying the location of the Sanctuary in Blackwood to people who want to kill them. Even if the Waking Flame hadn't gotten them first, it's not like Lovidicus or the other councilors were going to leave them in peace forever. Eveli, likewise, is pretty clear that she wants to kill Dark Brotherhood members.

Sorry, but ZOS railroaded us into betraying the secret location of the Sanctuary in Blackwood.

You might be comfortable with it, but my Silencer is not.

wenchmore420b14_ESO

seldomseenkd wrote: »

The writing in the game has took a nosedive since they started their year long adventures.

Content quotas and arbitrary deadlines always results in the butter being spread over too much bread.

Agree.
So glad OP started this thread. During PTS of Blackwood, I noticed how this redundant dialog became more and more used with all NPC characters.
I am one of those that listen to all the dialog. I even stay around after finishing quests to listen to the NPC's as they will continue with dialog long after the player runs off after collecting rewards. They have funny and/or interesting things to say. Or they used to.
I feel Orsinium was our last "really" good addition to ESO for it's writing and storyline. (Although, hats off to Zeb Cook for his Morrowind writing, but I have loved his writing going back to his D&D days).

Yes, I agree ZoS is treating us like a "Spoon fed 4 yr old" at times. I have been here loyally through beta and early launch, through ups and downs, and really love ESO and the TES franchise as a whole, but I hope they take notice of our comments here.
It's not a matter of them "Dumbing down the game" so much as it is this...

“When the people that can make the company more successful are sales and marketing people, they end up running the companies. The product people get driven out of the decision making forums, and the companies forget what it means to make great products.”
_Steve Jobs (The Lost Interview)

My two drakes. Huzzah!

Gleitfrosch

Just came into my mind that not only player seem to be annoyed by the conversation options. I think Abnur Tharn also had a few fitting replys, something like "your skill to point out the obvious are impressive". I remember he made me giggle a few times in Northern Elsweyr.
Wish there would be more questlines with him.

Lets hope the devs bring him back

danno8

ixthUA wrote: »

I completed all quests in the game without reading them and don't regret it. I still got an idea what they were about: daedric princes, bandits, cultists, vampires, werevolves, dragons, all of them want to conquer the world, and there is a single hero who defeats them all.
Tried reading the very first quests, but they container many words and little information, so i stopped.

I can't blame you, but just so you know, you missed some really good side quests especially those from the earlier parts of the game.

danno8

Gleitfrosch wrote: »

Just came into my mind that not only player seem to be annoyed by the conversation options. I think Abnur Tharn also had a few fitting replys, something like "your skill to point out the obvious are impressive". I remember he made me giggle a few times in Northern Elsweyr.
Wish there would be more questlines with him.

Lets hope the devs bring him back

Tharn was the only good Companion. I read all his dialogue options in the game because his quips were always entertaining. I am sure he will make a return at some point, after all in MMO's:

ArchMikem

moo_2021 wrote: »

propertyOfUndefined wrote: »

I have the same criticism -- especially in Blackwood. I honestly hate every time I need to talk to Eveli because she comes across sounding like she's talking to (and spoon-feeding) a 4-year-old.

I was seriously pissed when she didn't recognize me in Wrothgar after Blackwood. It's sad.

Dialogue isn;t retroactive like that so it's just better to think in-game events happen in the same flow of time that the content is released, even if you're allowed to play everything horribly out of order.

ixthUA

danno8 wrote: »

I can't blame you, but just so you know, you missed some really good side quests especially those from the earlier parts of the game.

I doubt they are worth hours of reading pointless boring text.

starkerealm

ArchMikem wrote: »

Quote myself from an earlier Topic about this,

ArchMikem wrote: »

fiender66 wrote: »

What I cannot condone is the toddler level of the puzzles (rotate the cube, sigh...) and the shallowness of the main quest, with Eveli utterly wasted as a character

I'm a pretty casual person, but when I got to that first set of Rune block puzzles and I actually tried to memorize the symbols, only to realize the game figures it out for me with every block... and then not only a minute later the Quest actually required me to have Eveli remind me what we were doing that very moment before progressing.

Blackwood has been doing a good job of insulting my intelligence.

There were parts, plural, meaning more than once, where the Chapter with both it's mechanics and the story dialogue made me feel like an idiot with a short attention span, and it was highly frustrating. I actually came very close to regretting buying this Chapter, though I kept reminding myself the positives. New land to explore, achievements to earn etc.

New opportunities to watch Bastien walk into the lava at the center of Earthgore's boss room, and die? Okay, yeah, mildly annoying, but that was also pretty funny. He'd walk into the lava, burn to death, resurrect, dodge roll out, walk back in, die, repeat. It was weirdly comedic.

starkerealm

NotaDaedraWorshipper wrote: »

In Western Skyrim an early quest have Lyris sending you to check on Kilkreath Temple, which she talks a little about. Like how it's a temple of Meridia etc. On the way there you meet Fennorian, who also talks a bit about the temple and you mention you were going to warn the priests. Then with the third character you meet (this is all within a short period of time), who is a priest of Meridia, you go something like "What is the Kilkreath Temple?" 🤦

Greymoor has an even better one, but it's impossible to trigger (without spending money.)

If you roll up a new character in the Greymoor tutorial, immediately go to the cash shop and buy vampirism, you can then make the entire conversation with the vampire in your cell unintentionally hilarious and complete nonsense.

Lugaldu

Even if I would wish that, it is not feasible for all dialogues in certain situations to address and react to the different background stories and timelines of our characters (being a vampire, orc chief, champion of..). So, I prefer to see it with a sense of humor when a question like "who are you?", "what are we doing here?", "who am I"? shows up. Sure, sometimes the dialogues could be better, but I don't see ESO as an intellectual challenge either...

Gleitfrosch

Had to do the Tzinghalis Tower door "riddle" today, which is now a new low for me.

Four mechanisms need to be activated to unlock the door, so far so good ... but

All you have to do is to click on the box to rotate it (four possible positions) until the gears above it automatically start moving and then repeat with the other mechanisms. Even Lyris informs you everytime a box is in the right position. Calling this a "riddle" a no-brainer would be an insult to other no-brainers.

I just can hope the devs will improve here in future [snip]

[edited for bashing]

whitecrow

Gleitfrosch wrote: »

Had to do the Tzinghalis Tower door "riddle" today, which is now a new low for me.

Four mechanisms need to be activated to unlock the door, so far so good ... but

All you have to do is to click on the box to rotate it (four possible positions) until the gears above it automatically start moving and then repeat with the other mechanisms. Even Lyris informs you everytime a box is in the right position. Calling this a "riddle" a no-brainer would be an insult to other no-brainers.

I just can hope the devs will improve here in future [snip]

And the timing is off even in that. She confirms the correct position before it's even there and the glow appears.

[edited to remove quote]

DinoZavr

Mr. Cole's Axiom:
The sum of intelligence on the planet is a constant; the population is growing.
/ Arthur Bloch: Murphy's Law and Other Reasons Why Things Go Wrong /

everseeing_njpreub18_ESO

I can understand wanting to make the dialogs easy to follow for everyone, but i agree.

My primary request would be to feel more like "I" am the hero, not the hired sword just following someone around. This could all be done with some simple dialog tweaks if nothing more.

Rather than:
NPC- This guys bad and is going to blow up a puppy!
Me- DUHHH what should we do???
NPC- Lets go stop him!

How about:
NPC- This guys bad and is going to blow up a puppy!
Me- ~Heroic Stance~ Than lets go stop him!!!
NPC- YEAH! Lets go stop him!

A basic and silly example sure but i hope it gets the point across.