So all the concerns over damage mitigation were ignored

DrSlaughtr

I wonder why so many players feel it's pointless to give feedback or submit bug reports. All the posts over the last week seem to have fallen on deaf ears.

gariondavey

Insert first time here meme

Dalsinthus

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I wonder why so many players feel it's pointless to give feedback or submit bug reports. All the posts over the last week seem to have fallen on deaf ears.

Week 2 changes are usually pretty light. We'll have to look to the subsequent weeks to see if our feedback is incorporated.

But that said, I do share your concern about how over the top damage mitigation will be next patch. I doubt I'll pvp much if this goes live.

Nifok

The Week 2 Patch is usually for minox bug fixes and such.
The balance changes come in Week 3.

DrSlaughtr

I've honestly barely been playing this week because I know how much the current patch will bone me so it kinda kills my desire to play.

jaws343

It's week 2. Literally 4 times a year this happens and for some reason people still cannot pick up on patterns. Week 2 never has anything major.

And just logically, using common sense, if player spend a week providing feedback, how long do you think it takes to implement that feedback? They have to evaluate it, determine if it is good feedback or not, implement code changes, internal testing, etc. They aren't doing that over a weekend, so they literally have no time to implement major changes after week 1. So week 3 PTS, after they've had a week to work on things, usually has major updates.

DrSlaughtr

jaws343 wrote: »

It's week 2. Literally 4 times a year this happens and for some reason people still cannot pick up on patterns. Week 2 never has anything major.

And just logically, using common sense, if player spend a week providing feedback, how long do you think it takes to implement that feedback? They have to evaluate it, determine if it is good feedback or not, implement code changes, internal testing, etc. They aren't doing that over a weekend, so they literally have no time to implement major changes after week 1. So week 3 PTS, after they've had a week to work on things, usually has major updates.

I understand your point. This isn't my first rodeo. They need their feet held to the fire on this because they have a track record of going hard on extreme changes and then week 3 walking it back just enough so players go "well it could have been worse."

Jameson18

TheEndBringer wrote: »

I understand your point. This isn't my first rodeo. They need their feet held to the fire on this because they have a track record of going hard on extreme changes and then week 3 walking it back just enough so players go "well it could have been worse."

This.

Vevvev

Is super giddy over the Corrosive Armor change.

neferpitou73

Vevvev wrote: »

Is super giddy over the Corrosive Armor change.

Say hello mag DK harmony bomber!

Blobsky

TheEndBringer wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

It's week 2. Literally 4 times a year this happens and for some reason people still cannot pick up on patterns. Week 2 never has anything major.

And just logically, using common sense, if player spend a week providing feedback, how long do you think it takes to implement that feedback? They have to evaluate it, determine if it is good feedback or not, implement code changes, internal testing, etc. They aren't doing that over a weekend, so they literally have no time to implement major changes after week 1. So week 3 PTS, after they've had a week to work on things, usually has major updates.

I understand your point. This isn't my first rodeo. They need their feet held to the fire on this because they have a track record of going hard on extreme changes and then week 3 walking it back just enough so players go "well it could have been worse."

Best comment on the forums. ESO members are quick to attack others if they feel right, but nothing is a better choice than pushing ZOS to perform as much as possible.

If ZOS are not pushed to revert the battle spirit change en masse, it will no be changed and PvP will cease to exist (as nobody will die).

I therefore support this thread massively. Push ZOS to revert this nonsense change.

Joy_Division

jaws343 wrote: »

It's week 2. Literally 4 times a year this happens and for some reason people still cannot pick up on patterns. Week 2 never has anything major.

And just logically, using common sense, if player spend a week providing feedback, how long do you think it takes to implement that feedback? They have to evaluate it, determine if it is good feedback or not, implement code changes, internal testing, etc. They aren't doing that over a weekend, so they literally have no time to implement major changes after week 1. So week 3 PTS, after they've had a week to work on things, usually has major updates.

Can we stop with the lazy excuse that "it's week 2"? This is a highly questionable practice that ZOS hasn't always implemented. In earlier patches, they did make changes every week which is just good practice as it doesn't just waste a week of testing. How many of ZOS's questionable changes that were immediately identified just went through anyway because of this silly practice? It creates an awful lot of pressure for ZOS to get the week 3 changes right because there is less time to test them and less time to make revisions (especially as week 4 is somehow not allowed to have changes either.

I have zero desire to go through more Live "testing" because ZOS can't get these values where they need to be during the PTS process.

master_vanargand

The player must die in PvP.
Don't try to be immortal.

JoSePHRiNG

I understand they don't bring much change in week 2 but they can at least give a hint about what they are going to change.

stefj68

balanced on that will only been seen in update 32
thats always been like that
they changes stuff
they slightly adjust
they wait for 3 months on live
then they do something!

GetAgrippa

All I know is if the changes on pts go live as is, I'll be sitting this patch out. The day that my mag toons have to run a stam taunt to be competitive is the day this game has completely lost me.

jaws343

Joy_Division wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

It's week 2. Literally 4 times a year this happens and for some reason people still cannot pick up on patterns. Week 2 never has anything major.

And just logically, using common sense, if player spend a week providing feedback, how long do you think it takes to implement that feedback? They have to evaluate it, determine if it is good feedback or not, implement code changes, internal testing, etc. They aren't doing that over a weekend, so they literally have no time to implement major changes after week 1. So week 3 PTS, after they've had a week to work on things, usually has major updates.

Can we stop with the lazy excuse that "it's week 2"? This is a highly questionable practice that ZOS hasn't always implemented. In earlier patches, they did make changes every week which is just good practice as it doesn't just waste a week of testing. How many of ZOS's questionable changes that were immediately identified just went through anyway because of this silly practice? It creates an awful lot of pressure for ZOS to get the week 3 changes right because there is less time to test them and less time to make revisions (especially as week 4 is somehow not allowed to have changes either.

I have zero desire to go through more Live "testing" because ZOS can't get these values where they need to be during the PTS process.

It's been this way the entire nearly 5 years I've played the game. Week 2 has always had minimal updates. It's literally their dev cycle for PTS. It's not an excuse, it's a fact. Week 2 is always minor fixes and minor adjustments. Week 3 is always major updates and major fixes.

But again, I'll ask. If a problem in the PTS during week 1 is discovered on Tuesday and posted to the forums. That leaves the dev team exactly 3 days to implement a fix or an update, test it internally, and then release it on the following Monday. That is a dangerously short time to do that. At that is at best, 3-4 days to make an update. Why would they rush it? Why would players want them to rush it? All that does is lead to more issues. It makes perfect sense that they spend a full week on the problem before implementing an update to PTS for it. If you can clarify how providing a team sufficient time to approach a problem is a questionable practice more so that forcing them to rush it for a PTS update, not even a live game update, PTS.

clearly wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

It's week 2. Literally 4 times a year this happens and for some reason people still cannot pick up on patterns. Week 2 never has anything major.

And just logically, using common sense, if player spend a week providing feedback, how long do you think it takes to implement that feedback? They have to evaluate it, determine if it is good feedback or not, implement code changes, internal testing, etc. They aren't doing that over a weekend, so they literally have no time to implement major changes after week 1. So week 3 PTS, after they've had a week to work on things, usually has major updates.

[Removed Quote]

It's funny that you think they are going to walk back the mitigation change just because some players don't like it.

I think this is the other aspect of the PTS that players just fail to get. Just because you make a recommendation or dislike a feature and they go through with it anyways doesn't mean it's being ignored. It just means that the developers of the game think you are wrong and chose not to take your feedback. I expect that will happen with the mitigation changes. They won't change them and players will scream that they aren't being heard. When the truth is, they heard you, they just didn't like you feedback.

CaffeinatedMayhem

jaws343 wrote: »

It's funny that you think they are going to walk back the mitigation change just because some players don't like it.

I think this is the other aspect of the PTS that players just fail to get. Just because you make a recommendation or dislike a feature and they go through with it anyways doesn't mean it's being ignored. It just means that the developers of the game think you are wrong and chose not to take your feedback. I expect that will happen with the mitigation changes. They won't change them and players will scream that they aren't being heard. When the truth is, they heard you, they just didn't like you feedback.

This 100%. I have a thread up right now that's being misinterpreted as calling for changes. While I would LOVE for the devs to re-think Rush of Agony AND Dark Convergeance, I am well aware it won't happen.

PTS isn't about TESTING, it's basically allowing us to see the changes early. That's it. Yes, some minor amount of bug fixing happens, but nothing core will change. Damage mitigation will be very over tuned, the new dungeon sets will be super OP for at least the next year, and that change to Inner Beast will go through even though it's going to cause more problems than it solves.

In about 12 months most of what players are talking about here will be worked into Live somehow, when it turns out that yes, players DO know how these sets will be used, and very often prove it's NOT how the devs intended. I'm not making a comment on the "rightness" of any of this, just pointing at almost 8 years of history.

GetAgrippa

It's not exactly true that feedback never leads to changes on pts. Some that I can think of are cast time on shields, Caluurions not needing crit, OP sets getting nerfed (like the original Stuhns.)

Joy_Division

jaws343 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

It's week 2. Literally 4 times a year this happens and for some reason people still cannot pick up on patterns. Week 2 never has anything major.

And just logically, using common sense, if player spend a week providing feedback, how long do you think it takes to implement that feedback? They have to evaluate it, determine if it is good feedback or not, implement code changes, internal testing, etc. They aren't doing that over a weekend, so they literally have no time to implement major changes after week 1. So week 3 PTS, after they've had a week to work on things, usually has major updates.

Can we stop with the lazy excuse that "it's week 2"? This is a highly questionable practice that ZOS hasn't always implemented. In earlier patches, they did make changes every week which is just good practice as it doesn't just waste a week of testing. How many of ZOS's questionable changes that were immediately identified just went through anyway because of this silly practice? It creates an awful lot of pressure for ZOS to get the week 3 changes right because there is less time to test them and less time to make revisions (especially as week 4 is somehow not allowed to have changes either.

I have zero desire to go through more Live "testing" because ZOS can't get these values where they need to be during the PTS process.

It's been this way the entire nearly 5 years I've played the game. Week 2 has always had minimal updates. It's literally their dev cycle for PTS. It's not an excuse, it's a fact. Week 2 is always minor fixes and minor adjustments. Week 3 is always major updates and major fixes.

But again, I'll ask. If a problem in the PTS during week 1 is discovered on Tuesday and posted to the forums. That leaves the dev team exactly 3 days to implement a fix or an update, test it internally, and then release it on the following Monday. That is a dangerously short time to do that. At that is at best, 3-4 days to make an update. Why would they rush it? Why would players want them to rush it? All that does is lead to more issues. It makes perfect sense that they spend a full week on the problem before implementing an update to PTS for it. If you can clarify how providing a team sufficient time to approach a problem is a questionable practice more so that forcing them to rush it for a PTS update, not even a live game update, PTS.

You use the word always when that's absolutely not true. It was a choice they made to do it this way. And the fact that just in the past 9 months, there have been months of testing going on the Live servers six years after the game has been released stands as proof positive this way of doing the PTS is highly flawed.

The "problem" wasn't discovered on Tuesday. ZOs was warned about the damage mitigation before the PTS was even released so it was something they already knew was highly contentious and would likely need multiple tweaks and adjustments to ensure they arrive at something that would not swing the balance too far in either direction. That fact alone means that multiple combinations would be necessary and thus something different might be needed and probably decided beforehand. It's about being prepared and anticipating that more than two trials might be needed for dramatic changes such as this.

A huge reason we have wild swings from patch to patch is because of this practice that does not use fine tuning during the PTS cycle. It's why we had an awful 3 months of overpowered DoTs only to then have ZOS overreact and make DoTs almost pointless when they finally get to readjusting.

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

PTS isn't about TESTING, it's basically allowing us to see the changes early. That's it.

This is 100% wrong.

Rich Lambert has multiple times urged us to get on the PTS to test the material they put on it and send in the feedback.

superryan94

I see a lot of bashing against the balancing ZOS tries to do to pvp. It's never good, and everything gets nerfed(every patch we survive better and do more damage, a real nerf of the game indeed).
But consider the following:
There is 99% of the playerbase that are medium ish, or below and need a certain build to be able to compete.
There is 0.9% of the playerbase that don't really know the inner working is stuff, but are just very good and no matter what you give them, they out perform almost all the others anyways.
And than there is the 0.1% that knows the inner workings of everything and everything the devs throw at them, they manage to abuse it in such a way they can go around in godmode killing everything on their path without taking any damage.

Now, what zos wants is not zergs, but tactical asualts at different places at the same time.

This makes for:
The 99% cluther up to stay alive and go around.
The 0.9% goes organised and get what they want most of the time.
The 0.1% just does whatever they want cause they can't die against the zerg they are killing.

So, this would mean they would nerf that part the 0.1% abuses.
They buff the thing the 99% struggles with.

And now we get to the beginning.

Balancing is much much harder when you deal with novices and exceptional experts in the same arena because the novice get just erased in the exact same setup the expert dominates.

neferpitou73

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

It's funny that you think they are going to walk back the mitigation change just because some players don't like it.

I think this is the other aspect of the PTS that players just fail to get. Just because you make a recommendation or dislike a feature and they go through with it anyways doesn't mean it's being ignored. It just means that the developers of the game think you are wrong and chose not to take your feedback. I expect that will happen with the mitigation changes. They won't change them and players will scream that they aren't being heard. When the truth is, they heard you, they just didn't like you feedback.

This 100%. I have a thread up right now that's being misinterpreted as calling for changes. While I would LOVE for the devs to re-think Rush of Agony AND Dark Convergeance, I am well aware it won't happen.

PTS isn't about TESTING, it's basically allowing us to see the changes early. That's it. Yes, some minor amount of bug fixing happens, but nothing core will change. Damage mitigation will be very over tuned, the new dungeon sets will be super OP for at least the next year, and that change to Inner Beast will go through even though it's going to cause more problems than it solves.

In about 12 months most of what players are talking about here will be worked into Live somehow, when it turns out that yes, players DO know how these sets will be used, and very often prove it's NOT how the devs intended. I'm not making a comment on the "rightness" of any of this, just pointing at almost 8 years of history.

The Public Testing Server isn’t about testing? Sure...

DrSlaughtr

It doesn't really matter what their reasoning is for any change. What matters is if their changes will fundamentally alter the current live patch in a way that returns us to a tank meta that we just fought for like a year to get rid of.

Wuuffyy

jaws343 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

It's week 2. Literally 4 times a year this happens and for some reason people still cannot pick up on patterns. Week 2 never has anything major.

And just logically, using common sense, if player spend a week providing feedback, how long do you think it takes to implement that feedback? They have to evaluate it, determine if it is good feedback or not, implement code changes, internal testing, etc. They aren't doing that over a weekend, so they literally have no time to implement major changes after week 1. So week 3 PTS, after they've had a week to work on things, usually has major updates.

Can we stop with the lazy excuse that "it's week 2"? This is a highly questionable practice that ZOS hasn't always implemented. In earlier patches, they did make changes every week which is just good practice as it doesn't just waste a week of testing. How many of ZOS's questionable changes that were immediately identified just went through anyway because of this silly practice? It creates an awful lot of pressure for ZOS to get the week 3 changes right because there is less time to test them and less time to make revisions (especially as week 4 is somehow not allowed to have changes either.

I have zero desire to go through more Live "testing" because ZOS can't get these values where they need to be during the PTS process.

It's been this way the entire nearly 5 years I've played the game. Week 2 has always had minimal updates. It's literally their dev cycle for PTS. It's not an excuse, it's a fact. Week 2 is always minor fixes and minor adjustments. Week 3 is always major updates and major fixes.

But again, I'll ask. If a problem in the PTS during week 1 is discovered on Tuesday and posted to the forums. That leaves the dev team exactly 3 days to implement a fix or an update, test it internally, and then release it on the following Monday. That is a dangerously short time to do that. At that is at best, 3-4 days to make an update. Why would they rush it? Why would players want them to rush it? All that does is lead to more issues. It makes perfect sense that they spend a full week on the problem before implementing an update to PTS for it. If you can clarify how providing a team sufficient time to approach a problem is a questionable practice more so that forcing them to rush it for a PTS update, not even a live game update, PTS.

clearly wrote: »

jaws343 wrote: »

It's week 2. Literally 4 times a year this happens and for some reason people still cannot pick up on patterns. Week 2 never has anything major.

And just logically, using common sense, if player spend a week providing feedback, how long do you think it takes to implement that feedback? They have to evaluate it, determine if it is good feedback or not, implement code changes, internal testing, etc. They aren't doing that over a weekend, so they literally have no time to implement major changes after week 1. So week 3 PTS, after they've had a week to work on things, usually has major updates.

they already don't test the changes they make in the original PTS patch, what makes you think they would test further adjustments? and if it actually takes days of manpower to change the battlespirit mitigation from 55% to 44%, they probably have more important stuff to do than tossing yet another low effort change to pretend they're still trying to balance pvp.

It's funny that you think they are going to walk back the mitigation change just because some players don't like it.

I think this is the other aspect of the PTS that players just fail to get. Just because you make a recommendation or dislike a feature and they go through with it anyways doesn't mean it's being ignored. It just means that the developers of the game think you are wrong and chose not to take your feedback. I expect that will happen with the mitigation changes. They won't change them and players will scream that they aren't being heard. When the truth is, they heard you, they just didn't like you feedback.

It’s not that it’s not liked. It’s a fact that no one will die which is in fact toxic for PvP health.

[Deleted User]

Hello everyone,

With this thread derailing with flame, bait, and bashing, we're going to go ahead and close it down. For further posts please be sure to stay constructive and respectful with the Forum Rules in mind to avoid thread derailment or action on one's own account.

Thank you for understanding.