Can we talk about why "mass CC" on DPS SETS is a bad idea?

CaffeinatedMayhem

Over all I'm pretty happy with the direction the U31 PTS seems to be going. The inner beast change isn't a good idea, but otherwise I generally think most of these changes will be positive.

The one thing I am NOT happy about is the fact I am having to create a banned set list for my trials group. Fun sets are fun, but I run groups for those NEW to trials. I dislike having gear requirements as the point of these groups is to get people interested in advanced content; not in making them run back to Cyro because they don't want to grind out a Perfected Siroria Inferno.

There are many pre-U31 sets that aren't appropriate for PvE groups, but they're mostly annoyances (Mad Tinkerer is an example). Here is my current (July 18) ban list and why I'm banning these sets:

Rush of Agony: This could be a neat set for tanks on trash, but if a DPS is wearing this instead... it's just too much to keep every mob 100% CC immune so a DPS can't just ruin all the stacks the tanks worked so hard to create. No, I don't really want to have to RE-RE-RE chain everything when a WW decides they want to leap that one guy in the back that someone's scamp snared.

Dark Convergence: Same reasons as Rush of Agony. It's ok on a tank (kinda), but if a DPS is wearing it. can completely negate anything a tank is trying to do with a large mob.

Grisly Gourmet - Hey, if you want to play "tag the sweetroll" in your group for buffs, go ahead. When I'm trying to teach people to stay in group so they can get healed and not over work the healer, this set is a NO.

Yes, there is a solution, but it's an "unfriendly" one. See my many posts on why people don't tank in ESO, or why many players don't participate in trials or other advanced PvE - just too daunting. I'm not happy that I have to play armor police now, or let my group be chaos. Rush of Agony and Dark Convergence are probably not going to have the impact the devs want in PvP either (solo player wiping a ball group). I've solo wiped ball groups, but I don't use Vicious Death to do so. However, ball groups are all wearing Vicious Death.... HMMMMM, makes you wonder what's going to happen? (that's a rhetorical question)

Devs, please don't make trials leads play armor police any more than we have to. Having a list of sets that provide buffs/debuffs is one thing. Making sets that can ruin work done by an already difficult role is just.... wrong. So much of tanking large mobs depends on Line Of Sigh, not CC EVERYTHING. Devs, if you wonder why tanks say "devs hate tanks...." well, sets like Rush of Agony and Dark Convergence would be why. I will never use finder again as a tank while these sets are in use.

CP5

Dark Convergence is a pvp sourced set that is designed around pvp to use, and grisly gourmet is a fine time to teach people the value of positioning. But being able to explain to people the impact of gear choices is important for someone going into end game content. Rather than thinking of it as a ban list more think of it as a chance to explain to people why you shouldn't bring some sets to trials so they can keep an eye out for this themselves.

CaffeinatedMayhem

CP5 wrote: »

Dark Convergence is a pvp sourced set that is designed around pvp to use, and grisly gourmet is a fine time to teach people the value of positioning. But being able to explain to people the impact of gear choices is important for someone going into end game content. Rather than thinking of it as a ban list more think of it as a chance to explain to people why you shouldn't bring some sets to trials so they can keep an eye out for this themselves.

Powerful Assault is a PvP sourced set geared around PvP skills... and is also a big part of the PvE tanking repertoire. Gear sets cross the PvP/Pve boundary ALL THE TIME. The point is, someone signs up for my Sunday teaching run and as soon as I see their set proc gets told they have to change? They're not coming back and now all trials leads are ... well words we can't use on the forums. Many players who don't run large group content don't get the difference. Explaining it to those who want to stay around matters, but when you're trying to interest people, telling them NO straight away isn't the best way to make them want to grind a new set.

CP5

And tanks go out of their way to get it. Sure a player joining your run could be using it, but since many players are more likely to do overland or dungeons before trials they will likely source sets from those locations. And again, if you see it you can use it as a chance to teach people why it may not be a good idea to use, or maybe it's a good idea to use if the person is mindful about when/how to use it. If you see it as a policing/banning task then yes, it's irritating, but you would probably be better off just explaining to people what is what with particular sets.

FluffyBird

Rush of Agony doesn't apply CC immunity, no?

CaffeinatedMayhem

FluffyBird wrote: »

Rush of Agony doesn't apply CC immunity, no?

No, but let me tell you how many tanks are going to appreciate having to chain/group stuff up again....

ZERO.

As if tanks weren't tired of "GET IT OFF ME" being typed in group chat (yes in all caps) by DPS, Rush of Agony isn't going to make "crowd control" easier. Sure, I CAN pull that NPC off you... again... and again... and tell you to take whatever skill off your bar that is triggering the set but....(fill in the blank here, as in, please stop making my life as a tank even more miserable)

Do you know how many DPS who use a frost staff in PvP don't realize Frost Clench taunts? Quite a few. I see them in random normals on a regular basis. When I ask "Does anyone have frost clench slotted?" the group chat is *silent*... until I call out the person by name because I can see the skill firing. I really hate doing that.

CaffeinatedMayhem

CP5 wrote: »

And tanks go out of their way to get it. Sure a player joining your run could be using it, but since many players are more likely to do overland or dungeons before trials they will likely source sets from those locations. And again, if you see it you can use it as a chance to teach people why it may not be a good idea to use, or maybe it's a good idea to use if the person is mindful about when/how to use it. If you see it as a policing/banning task then yes, it's irritating, but you would probably be better off just explaining to people what is what with particular sets.

So yeah, that's good an all. I've already posted a longer discussion of why, along with why stamina DPS are not allowed to use WW form in group. BUT... again, that's 1 pinned post (actually just a discussion right now) that not everyone will read. We've had the talk about why proc sets aren't great for PvE (because procs don't crit) My DPS who loves Mad Tinkerer still wears it. Luckily, Mad Tinkerer only targets 1 NPC and only knocks them up in the air, instead of dragging them halfway across the room.

I'm part of the leadership of 2 guilds that cater to the PvP crowd. It's far more likely for PvP sets to be in use in my teaching runs than PvE sets. Yes, Mad Tinkerer is a PvE sourced set - that's almost exclusively used in PvP. Most players, even new ones, can follow a build guide. However, the understanding of how sets work within a group in PvP is much different than PvE. Arguably, same principles, but you usually only see that discussed in ball groups/guilds in Cyro. I've taught a lot of PvPers about buffs and group play in PvE, because they don't run with a ball group in Cyro.

Excelsus

Cc dps sets already exist and yeah they probably wont make a difference. Anytime zos comes up with a set even adjacent to a silver bullet people scream it down then complain theres no check to x. See shieldbreaker, soldier of anguish, knight slayer, etc...

Anyway there are two kinds of people. People who wanna git gud and will listen and learn and cp1000 players who bring magdks light attacking with bows into vDSA (my eyes are still bleeding). The sets suck, yes, but they arent the difference between people who will learn trial etique and the people who will make you drop group, alt f4 and run to the bar.

FluffyBird

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

Rush of Agony doesn't apply CC immunity, no?

No, but let me tell you how many tanks are going to appreciate having to chain/group stuff up again....

ZERO.

As if tanks weren't tired of "GET IT OFF ME" being typed in group chat (yes in all caps) by DPS, Rush of Agony isn't going to make "crowd control" easier. Sure, I CAN pull that NPC off you... again... and again... and tell you to take whatever skill off your bar that is triggering the set but....(fill in the blank here, as in, please stop making my life as a tank even more miserable)

Do you know how many DPS who use a frost staff in PvP don't realize Frost Clench taunts? Quite a few. I see them in random normals on a regular basis. When I ask "Does anyone have frost clench slotted?" the group chat is *silent*... until I call out the person by name because I can see the skill firing. I really hate doing that.

Ah, I see, thanks for explanation

Amottica

Please forgive me since I am fairly new to ESO, though not new to MMORPGs. If you lead groups of new players through raids I would expect it would make sense to guide them with their choice of gear. Not necessarily require certain gear but with the selection, we have in ESO there are a lot of choices for gearing that would not be much better than running without any gear.

RogueShark

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Grisly Gourmet - Hey, if you want to play "tag the sweetroll" in your group for buffs, go ahead. When I'm trying to teach people to stay in group so they can get healed and not over work the healer, this set is a NO.

Sul-Xan's and Essence Thief both have a similar mini-game mechanic to them in the form of having to 'collect' the buff. I think the better alternative might be just explaining positioning and where people should and should not be. All of these drop their respective buffs where the target died or near the target which, most of the time, you'll be stacked on or near anyway. Elsewise, you may as well ban those sets too.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Amottica wrote: »

Please forgive me since I am fairly new to ESO, though not new to MMORPGs. If you lead groups of new players through raids I would expect it would make sense to guide them with their choice of gear. Not necessarily require certain gear but with the selection, we have in ESO there are a lot of choices for gearing that would not be much better than running without any gear.

These are not raid teams, or a Core group. This is a weekly sign up - I'm never guaranteed who I'll get. The goal is to introduce PvPers to advanced PvE content, NOT to play armor police. The guild leadership prefers the "requiprements" of CP 160 and wearing 2 purple 5 piece sets. That's it. Me asking to flat out ban 3 sets will be a tough sell.

These are NORMAL trials. You're telling me you want me to put gear reqs on NORMALS? I mean, c'mon, I'm a pretty bad raid lead if I have to specify what people wear in a normal. Yes, runs are easier when I have people from my vet group in the normals, in their meta gear. However, we've cleared every trial on normal with only asking that people be CP 160 and wearing 2 5-piece sets in purple. I don't even require monster helms.

CaffeinatedMayhem

RogueShark wrote: »

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

Grisly Gourmet - Hey, if you want to play "tag the sweetroll" in your group for buffs, go ahead. When I'm trying to teach people to stay in group so they can get healed and not over work the healer, this set is a NO.

Sul-Xan's and Essence Thief both have a similar mini-game mechanic to them in the form of having to 'collect' the buff. I think the better alternative might be just explaining positioning and where people should and should not be. All of these drop their respective buffs where the target died or near the target which, most of the time, you'll be stacked on or near anyway. Elsewise, you may as well ban those sets too.

Yep and I would if anyone actually wore them. Essence Thief was made irrelevant a long time ago, and my stam DPS complain when we run Rockgrove because there's "nothing" for them.

Edit: You're also missing the point that Grisly Gourmet would be worn by a healer. 1 DPS being denied their buffs because they're being told to stay in group is one thing. (Or being left down because they ran out of heals) Now, every 2 seconds, let's everyone rush forward and grab the sweetroll! No, just no. Fine if you think it's funny, but considering I have people who cannot understand what stay in group means no matter how many times we practice stacking, I'm not risking a good stack for a random buff that isn't even really all that good.

As soon as PTS patch notes came out one of my regular healers PM'd me with a build idea for Grisly Gourmet, and I had to shut her down. She understood when I explained why, and because the buffs aren't really trials appropriate. But again, 1 person with a "touch the X" set is their own death. A healer setting up buffs this way is yes, madness. Training people to work in coordinated groups is hard enough, hey! Lets make it random!.... I don't have enough wine for that (it's a reference to a Bastian quote)

RogueShark

I don't think Grisly Gourmet would be as bad as you think. The sweetroll, whether coming from a healer or a DPS wearing the set, is going to spawn beside the target. Whatever target the healer is light attacking, which should be the boss. Which the DPS are almost always going to be stacked on anyway, especially if you're not denying melee/stam in your group. It'll probably get soaked up before people see it.

I definitely understand and sympathize with your frustrations. With the goal of the groups to be to introduce and teach people higher-level PvE content, it goes hand in hand with teaching them mechanics, where to stand, what to do, etc. It sounds like you're already doing that, which is great; those who listen to your raid leading and advice will already know that they shouldn't be running out of group or running taunts and all of that.

Also, Sul-Xan slaps for fights with adds.

CaffeinatedMayhem

RogueShark wrote: »

I don't think Grisly Gourmet would be as bad as you think. The sweetroll, whether coming from a healer or a DPS wearing the set, is going to spawn beside the target. Whatever target the healer is light attacking, which should be the boss. Which the DPS are almost always going to be stacked on anyway, especially if you're not denying melee/stam in your group. It'll probably get soaked up before people see it.

I definitely understand and sympathize with your frustrations. With the goal of the groups to be to introduce and teach people higher-level PvE content, it goes hand in hand with teaching them mechanics, where to stand, what to do, etc. It sounds like you're already doing that, which is great; those who listen to your raid leading and advice will already know that they shouldn't be running out of group or running taunts and all of that.

Also, Sul-Xan slaps for fights with adds.

Target.... soooo, how you getting that Sweetroll from the Assembly General? What if it drops under the dragon's tail in Sunspire? How about in FRONT of The Warrior in HRC, when he's doing Channeled Swipes every 5 seconds. Just because it drops "near" the boss, doesn't mean it's safe to go near the boss. Not every trial is Cloudrest.

I've played ESO since launch (and a little before) in no way would I ever assume that "near" means the side of the VERY LARGE trials boss that is facing the group. In fact, I'm going to assume it's a random position around the boss. Love you devs, but networking really messes with stuff. Even if the intended position is the side of the boss facing the group, see comment about networking.

I mean, If you want to run up into melee range of St. Olms the TRIAL BOSS to grab a buff, be my guest. Even on normal steam breath hurts, and that's a lot of AoE up there. If you're accustomed to vet it's easy! If you're accustomed to overland, it's death. Oh maybe.... Bahsei. I mean, the healer was just attacking that Flesh Colossus like everyone else, better get that sweetroll in the defile pool!

See, Grisly is not a good PvE set. I don't want to argue with someone (kind of like I'm doing now) until these sets fade out of meta a year after release.

I never knew anyone who wore Essence Thief except for that brief period where it was buffed enough for PvP. It's a terrible sustain set for PvE, lots of better ones.

RogueShark

There are some fights it wouldn't be appropriate, sure. But there's fights where lots of gear isn't appropriate or efficient. There are plenty of fights where it would work just fine, too. I'm not necessarily trying to argue here, I'm trying to say that if your goal in these groups is to teach people PvE then they should be listening to you as the raid lead and if something like this set is enough for them to completely disregard raid lead callouts then they obviously aren't there to listen anyway. Which means they aren't interested in learning enough to do advanced PvE content.

As for the sweetroll placement: it IS random, yeah. But it also is going to be changing/reappearing roughly every three seconds if the wearer is efficient at LA weaving (which, I'd hope they would be if they're gonna wear a set that procs on LAs). If it drops in front of the boss, the tank will likely get the buff without even trying, as you don't have to be right on top of it to pick it up.


Edit: I'll also say that I don't think there's anything wrong with you 'banning' certain sets from your trials. You're the raid lead and it's your job to see the group clear. You don't have to demand BiS sets but telling people not to wear gear that's going to hinder the group isn't a bad thing. I just don't think there's a reason to call for the change of these sets because of this specific case. Telling them X gear isn't allowed is really no different than explaining to your DPS that they can't run a taunt.

CaffeinatedMayhem

RogueShark wrote: »

Edit: I'll also say that I don't think there's anything wrong with you 'banning' certain sets from your trials. You're the raid lead and it's your job to see the group clear. You don't have to demand BiS sets but telling people not to wear gear that's going to hinder the group isn't a bad thing. I just don't think there's a reason to call for the change of these sets because of this specific case. Telling them X gear isn't allowed is really no different than explaining to your DPS that they can't run a taunt.

I mean, fair. Still, the original point was, the PTS seems to be going in a good direction, except for the part where tank functionality (mob CC) is being put into DPS sets, because fetching skeevers that's going to be annoying for tanks.

I wasn't kidding when I said I will 100% stop using group finder if it goes live.

RogueShark

Oh, I don't disagree, DPS using those sets will be just awful for tanks in pugs. xD I don't think it's going to be super prevalent tho, and you'll know within the first pull. If asking them to swap doesn't work, there's always the ability to kick or bounce yourself.

Joy_Division

If you are willing to teach, then I will presume you are good enough to handle the off chance a one DPS happens to run Rush of Agony or a set they can only get through PvP rewards of the worthy. Rush of Agony procs on blink, teleports, gap closer, leap, and pulls, not exactly skills that are conducive to DPs. So if your DPS is running these in addition to that set, then that two opportunities to show them why doing either is a bad idea rather than just banning stuff and keeping them in ignorance.

Same goes for the scenario where the new DPs runs to get that Sweetroll that's underneath the Assembly General. You wont even need to explain to them as their corpse will more than likely suffice to make the point.

I get it, things would be more convenient for you if these sets didn;t exist in the game. But teaching by its nature is not about convenience. I teach for a living; it's the opposite if anything because novices make things inconvenient. And it's fine, as mistakes or wearing poor gear/using suboptimal skills offers the ideal opportunity to show people the consequence of such.

master_vanargand

U31PTS is the worst.
PvE Stamina DPS nerf and PvP Tank meta.
This is the madness update.

Pevey

I sympathize with the OP, but I have to also disagree. I hope we don't get to the point that we don't get a new set that might otherwise be quirky and a little fun just because someone might bring that into a trial group without knowing any better. It's a short conversation to get it sorted.

Excelsus

Pevey wrote: »

I sympathize with the OP, but I have to also disagree. I hope we don't get to the point that we don't get a new set that might otherwise be quirky and a little fun just because someone might bring that into a trial group without knowing any better. It's a short conversation to get it sorted.

This. Zos already tries to balance between pve, pvp, no cp pvp, with abyssmal success I might add, they cant also balance around "someone might bring this set into a training group". If having those yes and no conversations with new players is too difficult being a trainer may not be your ideal role. Eso has very opaque mechanics, we have a tutorial that teaches almost nothing and is still ignored, a heavily outdated build guide. And endless rules and exceptions - hey proc sets suck in pve, dont use them, oh except Relequin the proc set that is required on all stam dps.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Joy_Division wrote: »

If you are willing to teach, then I will presume you are good enough to handle the off chance a one DPS happens to run Rush of Agony or a set they can only get through PvP rewards of the worthy. Rush of Agony procs on blink, teleports, gap closer, leap, and pulls, not exactly skills that are conducive to DPs. So if your DPS is running these in addition to that set, then that two opportunities to show them why doing either is a bad idea rather than just banning stuff and keeping them in ignorance.

Same goes for the scenario where the new DPs runs to get that Sweetroll that's underneath the Assembly General. You wont even need to explain to them as their corpse will more than likely suffice to make the point.

I get it, things would be more convenient for you if these sets didn;t exist in the game. But teaching by its nature is not about convenience. I teach for a living; it's the opposite if anything because novices make things inconvenient. And it's fine, as mistakes or wearing poor gear/using suboptimal skills offers the ideal opportunity to show people the consequence of such.

Rush of Agony is not from PvP you're thinking of Dark Convergence. Rush of Agony is someone playing the DLC they just bought/unlocked with ESO+ and wearing their PvP gear into a trial or in a dungeon in Group Finder.

And I'm supposed to LIKE (as a tank and a group leader) someone ruining all the actually difficult group (mob placement) setup I just did because that's my "job" ????

Nope, still banning these sets if they go live. You wear them and I see it, you're being kicked from group, and I NEVER kick ANYONE. I don't like kicking once group has started. But I will not tolerate someone ruining the entire pull because they don't feel "rules" apply to them.

Also, good luck with finding a REAL tank in dungeon finder that will put up with DPS pulling mobs away and then probably complaining. I honestly expect it to be so bad, I won't be using finder for at least the next year.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Pevey wrote: »

I sympathize with the OP, but I have to also disagree. I hope we don't get to the point that we don't get a new set that might otherwise be quirky and a little fun just because someone might bring that into a trial group without knowing any better. It's a short conversation to get it sorted.

Do you lead trials groups? Let me tell you how this will work:

My "core" - those who run every week, or are in my actual vet group already knew this from reading patch notes themselves. I will pin a post in my signup channel anyway, or put it in the "Requirements" section of my signup page.

Inevitably, someone will think to themselves "Hm, but this is the only set I have because I only have 1 character and it's PvP" or whatever reason and wear the set anyway.

I can have the conversation all I want, but that's not going to stop someone from doing it. Now *I* am the bad person because I have to kick this individual who may have even read the ban and WHY it's banned, and still brought that to raid with no backup to change into.

Does that found fair to ME? No, it's not. Think about that when someone kicks you from a Craglorn pug for wearing Rush or Convergence.

itscompton

Both sets that create pulls are going to be horrible in PvP as well. Especially Rush of Agony, since it won't apply immunity after the pull there are going to be times people wind up getting helplessly yanked from one spot to another again and again during big fights.
All it will take is someone gap closing an ally in any direction that is within 10 meters of you in the GCD between when you get to the location of the first pull and the CC attempt that is sure to follow.

CaffeinatedMayhem

itscompton wrote: »

Both sets that create pulls are going to be horrible in PvP as well. Especially Rush of Agony, since it won't apply immunity after the pull there are going to be times people wind up getting helplessly yanked from one spot to another again and again during big fights.
All it will take is someone gap closing an ally in any direction that is within 10 meters of you in the GCD between when you get to the location of the first pull and the CC attempt that is sure to follow.

I was trying not to mention this, as I'm not complaining from a PvP standpoint, but I agree. If there wasn't a no-proc campaign to escape them, I'd stop PvPing.

YandereGirlfriend

While I appreciate the good work that you're doing helping others I also think that it's not a good reason to call down nerfs on these new item sets.

Newbies will always do newbie things - I've seen ostensibly DPS players use Streak in dungeons while I'm tanking, DKs will frequently spam Talons and mess up your Soft-CC, Werewolves are always doing something annoying and anti-social, etc.

But it just comes with the territory when dealing with random players.

VaranisArano

CaffeinatedMayhem wrote: »

FluffyBird wrote: »

Rush of Agony doesn't apply CC immunity, no?

No, but let me tell you how many tanks are going to appreciate having to chain/group stuff up again....

ZERO.

As if tanks weren't tired of "GET IT OFF ME" being typed in group chat (yes in all caps) by DPS, Rush of Agony isn't going to make "crowd control" easier. Sure, I CAN pull that NPC off you... again... and again... and tell you to take whatever skill off your bar that is triggering the set but....(fill in the blank here, as in, please stop making my life as a tank even more miserable)

Do you know how many DPS who use a frost staff in PvP don't realize Frost Clench taunts? Quite a few. I see them in random normals on a regular basis. When I ask "Does anyone have frost clench slotted?" the group chat is *silent*... until I call out the person by name because I can see the skill firing. I really hate doing that.

Ironically, you are a little nicer than I am.

"Hey, you know that frost staff Clench is a taunt that aggros the boss on you, right? Now that you know, if you taunt it, you tank it."

Most stop, but if they don't, then I get to chuckle over watching them scramble with an angry boss after them.

Arunei

Actually, wouldn't it be better to teach people how to properly use these sets, rather than just banning them outright and not giving people a chance to experiment and learn? If DPS sticks close to the tank, it can actually make pulls easier, since they won't have to use Silver Leash/Inner Beast on several different mobs to try and chain them all in, and since it doesn't apply CC, tanks who use things like Talons or the one Imprison skill Sorcs have icr the name of can then just root the stuff that's been helped to pull the mobs. In fact, I'd assume the devs expect these pull sets to be used like this in PvE, as a means to HELP tanks, not hinder them. Sure, a lot of people might run off and decide to pull the mobs somewhere else away from the tank, but it seems to me you should just explain how important positioning and teamwork can be with these sets as examples. Also, Rush at least doesn't pull enemies with CC immunity up, so there's that to keep in mind.

I CAN see the problem Rush would make in PvP, since people can get ping-ponged around without the benefit of CC immunity, but this also highlights the problem a lot of us have been saying ZOS needs to fix for years; PvP and PvE NEED to be balanced separately. There's no way to have balance for them both when the same effects from skills and gear and all apply to two game modes that are so different from each other. In this case, while used in PvE Rush could not apply CC so tanks can still root stuff that others pull in, but in PvP it WOULD apply CC so people aren't getting yoinked around with little chance of retaliating.

CaffeinatedMayhem

Arunei wrote: »

Actually, wouldn't it be better to teach people how to properly use these sets, rather than just banning them outright and not giving people a chance to experiment and learn? If DPS sticks close to the tank, it can actually make pulls easier, since they won't have to use Silver Leash/Inner Beast on several different mobs to try and chain them all in, and since it doesn't apply CC, tanks who use things like Talons or the one Imprison skill Sorcs have icr the name of can then just root the stuff that's been helped to pull the mobs.

The PROPER way to use this set is for the tank to wear it in a trial. I can see you’ve never tanked a trial, especially a vet, and died to a trash mob because you were learning to mitigate while wearing Alkosh. By all means “experiment” and I (the tank and raid lead) will be happy to stand on your corpse.